Are Palin's Biggest Fans Her Greatest Challenge?

Eric Erickson might want to stay away from religious references in discussing Sarah Palin. A comment he made on a podcast with Melissa Clouthier and me last night comes to mind.

What Do Sarah Palin and Jesus Christ Have In Common?

Your reaction to the title of this post says more about you than it does about Sarah, Jesus, or me.

Here's a comment Eric left on a Facebook thread in which we're being attacked by Palin fanatics - I suppose for not loving her devoutly enough, or something. That despite all of us being Palin fans. For having the nerve to suggest sometimes, like Obama was for the Left, Sarah Palin can seem like an empty vessel into which others seem willing to pour all their political dreams, Eric is being savaged. Unlike Eric, I've little patience for trying to deal with silly criticism like that. In my experience, trying to reason with the unreasonable on the Internet rarely, if ever, works.

 "Wow. This was a heck of a thing to wake up to today.  Lisa, if you go back and listen, I did not say Sarah Palin was an empty vessel.  I said many people viewed her as that and poured into her what they wanted to believe about her without first understand who she was.

I am and have been a Palin supporter.

Take all the criticizing of CPAC from Palin and Palin fans, for instance. I'm unconvinced they have even taken the time to examine the issue in depth, sans emotion. There's at least a chance none of it has to do with alleged corruption, having more to do with someone, David Keene, having been critical of Sarah Palin. I looked into the allegations of corruption and didn't come away with the impression there was much to it in the Fed Ex affair. That, despite being no big fan of Keene at the time.

Like Eric, Keene had the audacity to be somewhat critical of Palin after her resigning the Alaskan Governorship. And I don't think he was her biggest fan to begin with - it happens in politics when there are competing personalities, or politicians involved.

It was Keene's criticism of Palin that actually drove John I foam at the mouth for Sarah Ziegler to confront Keene at CPAC before being escorted out for acting like a child. I interviewed Ziegler about the incident at the time. He didn't hold up very well to questioning. Whatever her reasoning, Palin seems to have bought into Ziegler's views, possibly without looking into it at depth herself. I don't know.

If so, it suggests Sarah Palin, as with some of her fans, really doesn't deal very well with different points of view, or legitimate criticism. Frankly, if that and nothing else is really driving Palin's CPAC bashing, as someone who appreciates the work CPAC, quite apart from Keene, has done on behalf of conservatism, then, no, I don't care for it very much.

I'm perfectly open to a Palin for President push at some point in the future. I remain a fan. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to put aside logic and reason to try and understand the driving forces behind someone I may choose to support for the presidency one day.

If some of her fans can't handle that, it's a shame. But as I refuse to try and reason with the unreasonable out here, they'll just have to move along calling me whatever names they wish in their going. Frankly, when it comes to American politics, especially now, I care about more important things than their feelings. And that goes for Sarah Palin's feelings, too.

We need leaders in America, not matinee idols and laptop dummies willing to support them. And I'm not suggesting that's all there is to Palin by any means. She has a defined, populist/conservative governing style developed and displayed in her hard work in Alaska. To suggest I'm unaware of it as some have is stupid.

But perhaps somewhat like Quinn Hillyer, as much as I try to avoid basing political decisions on emotion and not logic, one can't help but react to others and their criticisms, as well as the logic, or lack thereof, driving them. Consequently, as it stands, some of Palin's more loving, though perhaps less reasonable, fans are not doing her a world of good.

Comments

[Bruce, NV]

So, because Dan, out of all the bloggers in the world, absolved ACU and Keene, we should follow without question? Not buying it.

[spwbt]

This all started when Sarah Palin didn't want to go to CPAC

[Huey]

I'm a Palin supporter. (I really don't like the word "fan" when it comes to a politician. It's just...unseemly (although I may have used it unthinkingly at some point...)

But, I grant her nothing which isn't there. She has great attributes, the greatest being her ability to gear up the base.

This ability isn't a result of anyone filling up an empty vessel. It's the result of, almost entirely, of her introductory speech which revealed a personality whose values were in step with the bulk of Americans delivered in a no-nonsense, humor laced fashion which resonated with most of the conservative base.

Since then, she has ups and downs, alternatively appearing unprepared for the national spotlight and a major (and unafraid) player in opposition to Obamanation.

She is a politician. But, she views herself as a "public servant," and has a track record of following principle over party, of employing common-sense solutions to the problems which are presented to her. She's shown strength of character (and I include her stepping down from her job as evidence of that strength -- others may differ in their conclusions) in her private and public life. She's shown the willingness to confront people in the press as well as in public life, regardless of party, when she felt that it was necessary.

She's not a genius. There's no need to believe her to be such. But, she's smarter than the average bear. She's not an intellectual, but has an inquiring mind who is a quick study, by most accounts. She's pretty quick on her feet.

But, I do agree that some Palin "fans" act like "fans" rather than VOTERS who should be rationally looking at those they grant power over them rather than blindly following Palin as a Cubs Fan might the Cubs.

She's a politician -- which NEEDN'T be a dirty word, and, I don't use it in that fashion here. She has an agenda, which, if granted power, she'll attempt to implement. As voters, as rational humans, we should attempt to determine just what that agenda is and determine whether it accords with what we would like the agenda of our "leaders" to be. We should look at her private life, her associations, her decisions as who NOT to associate with and why.

This is just rational.

It's what we should do all the time with those to whom we grant power over our lives.

The failure to do such results in people like Obama being elected.

So, I haven't any problem with Dan's exploration of this subject. I skim it, but don't find anything untoward or that would change my mind about Palin or anyone else, for that matter.

But, then...the digging's probably not done yet.

[Kentucky Colonel]

Huey, your post will be on my short list for Post Of The Month. Good job!

[section9]

If the Republican Party could bring Harry Truman back from the dead, they would produce Sarah Palin.

That's whom we've got. She scares the f**king bejesus out of the Statists, too.

Dan, I'm telling you, YOU HAVEN'T LIVED AND DIED IN L.A. UNTIL YOU HAVE READ ANDREW SULLIVANS TWO POSTS ON ROGER AILES AND SARAH PALIN TODAY.

Must read.!!!!!! The fear is palpable. Roger Ailes is leading us into the permanent, militarized state, governed by Queen Esther with the strings being pulled by Cheney and the JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS (I'm sorry, I should have said "Neocons"....).

These are classics! Sullivan admits his fear and sees Palin as the harbinger of the New fascism. Indeed, he even blames her for being for permanet deficits!

As to the Personality Cult aspects of Palin fandom: it needs to stop. Palin ain't perfect, she's just hot. But she ain't perfect. She may have thought that Keene and Romney were in cahoots (which they may have been). Life goes on. No need to beat up on Eric and you.

[Bruce, NV]

I suggest those who think Keene is an innocent victim read Ed Morrisey and (yes) Eric at Red State from last year...

[Pops in Vienna]

It's been interesting observing this dust up over Palin. I am a huge fan...errr..supporter but was very troubled about her accepting a hefty speaker's fee to appear at the Nashville convention especially because the participation fee was so "un-tea party". I made the mistake of expressing my concern on "Team Sarah" was was subsequently eaten alive. I feel your pain.

Right Wing News is running a poll about who would be the best candidate to run for president if Palin was out. It was pretty depressing. None of them got my heart beating fast. Love her or hate her, I think Sarah's our best shot.

Yes, no doubt she'll be richer than the Clintons come the 2012 election and will have made many more wrong decisions about what groups to speak to ect. But, at the end of the day we'll have a choice between re-electing Obama (with a 38% approval rating) or giving Sarah a chance at the job.
How could she do a worse job?

She'll be much more human by 2012 and many more warts will be visible but I don't think any of us will have to hold our noses while votong for her.

Having said all that, I still reserve the right to bitch and complain if I think she's doing something dumb. I doubt if she'll listen to me, she's a former governor posed to make millions and I'm an old coot living in Vienna, Austria.

[leilani]

Amen! I'm hard pressed myself to decide who is more hurtful to any future ambitions Palin may harbor, either in politics or the media.

Is it the obsessive nutbagging Palinphobes on the paranoiac left & elitist right who think she's the devil incarnate with absolutely no factual basis to the contrived slanders they routinely fling against her?

Or is it Palin's most irrationally obsessive fanatics on the right who see her as their own walks-on-water messaiah & seem to believe that anyone who *isn't* Palin is the devil incarnate with absolutely no factual basis to the slanders they concoct against others to 'defend' her.

Rather than helping Sarah broaden her appeal, her most enthusiastic supporters seem hell-bent on alienating everyone else against her though their unremitting obnoxiousness - even alienating people who are inclined to like her!

I admire Sarah a lot & will be eternally grateful to all the good work she's done at undercutting the wider public's confidence in biased mainstream media sources & her invaluable assistance in helping to slay this godawful health bill. But like a lot of people across the spectrum, I'm about to throw up my hands and pronounce a pox on both those Palin-centric houses, pro AND con.

We may have to come up with a new ideological paradigm. Instead of left vs right, perhaps we could divide up along the normal vs whacked-out continuum.

[Proud Liberal]

I just gotta love Danny Boy seeing the light when it comes to the Palin Fans. Of course, those of us on the left, knew a long long time ago what "dummies" her fans were but its nice to hear Danny Boy come to that realization as well. It's also great fun watching the internecine warfare going on in the increasingly bizarre world of the right wing.

[leilani]

Speaking of obsessive nutbagging Palinphobes on the paranoiac left, lol....like clockwork!

Not all Palin fans are created equal, Proud Liberal, or are you one of that growing cadre of crypto-bigoted leftists who make sweeping negative generalizations about entire groups of people such as jews or christians or conservatives or women, based on your own hypocritically intolerant assessments of the actions of a few & derived solely from your own rank prejudices?

[bishop]

That was a fairly ridiculous post by Erickson, we don't assume anything of the kind, but one does note
that a part of the criticism is because she is a avowed pro life Christian. Keene's critique was also factually weak. Palin supporters will accept legitimate criticism but not idle unfounded speculation. And Keene's was more of the latter. Accepting the word of Schmidt as apparently Kessler has done, as an impartial witness also fits in that category.

Going after every single Tea Party Nation sponsor, doesn't fit in that category. In retaliation for
Palin not going to CPAC and giving reasons for that. You may disagree with them, but they are valid.

[Proud Liberal]

leilani asks, "Proud Liberal . . . are you one of that growing cadre of crypto-bigoted leftists who make sweeping negative generalizations about entire groups of people such as jews or christians or conservatives or women, based on your own hypocritically intolerant assessments of the actions of a few & derived solely from your own rank prejudices?"

I love how the right tries to always accuse the left of the very thing they are guilty of most. You know, like saying it is the liberals that are the real racists... or as leilani suggestions, it is the liberals that are in the intolerant ones. Please, give me a break. I've seen your little teaparties... not a very diverse crowd you get there. What is it? 97% white? 95%? hmmmm....

[Lisa Graas]

LOL! Whatever!

[bishop]

That is considered an attack, more of a critique, and they say Palin supporters are thin skinned, words mean things, Arthur Chance, is not the be all and end all, as to her record in Alaska, In particular, she blames her for the Stevens indictment, there was no way to tell how much manufactured
evidence and skullduggery was behind that. A reasonable person might have concluded he was guilty. Then
again, she has likely become very skeptical about who to trust in the last year, and who could blame
her.

[Nat Hound]

Dan, what is there to look at in depth? Keene said what he said and it’s right there in the Kessler article. “Quitter,” “whiner,” “not ready for the major leagues,” the whole 9. This is what passes for a “different point of view” or “legitimate criticism” with you?

I’d venture a good portion of the problem is that CPAC’s organizers feel they are entitled to a Palin appearance. After all, how can you have the “Conservative Woodstock,” as Erickson put it, without the movement’s current Jimi Hendrix?

The bottom line is that it’s tough to come up with a compelling reason why Palin should appear at CPAC:

1) Start with the reason cited by Chris Clizza for Palin’s concerns, the John Birch Society sponsorship. (It was interesting to note that not word #1 of this sponsorship was mentioned in the podcast);

2) Factor in the Keene ACU FedEx/UPS issue and purported other pay-for-play issues with media members as alleged by Ziegler and others;

2a) Factor in Keene’s documented financial support of the likes of Darlin’ Arlen Specter;

3) Factor in Keene’s personal comments about Palin as stated above. Like it or not, why should she show up to help that guy sell tickets?;

4) Factor in CPAC’s cozy relationship with the “inside Washington” crowd that was behind a series of nasty attacks on the Governor post the 2008 election. (A group that overlaps with supporters of a certain other potential 2012 candidate known to have a close relationship with Keene and CPAC);

5) The availability of an arguably credible alternative venue in the same general time- frame; and

6) The general anti-Washington sentiment in the electorate.

Add it up and you tell me why Palin should do CPAC any favors. To be certain, it would be a magnanimous gesture on her part to show despite all the factors cited above.

So why CPAC? Because Ronald Reagan spoke there 30 years ago?

Obama and Reagan both spoke at the Berlin Wall. Does that mere fact render Obama a conservative Cold War era hawk?

I come back to the view that CPAC feels it is entitled to have Palin attend. “How dare this lesser woman from the sticks reject our invitation?"

[Roy Lofquist]

What you see here is a shot across the bow of those who would use her for their own ends. Last year's CPAC kefuffle, where they announced her before she agreed, struck her as self serving and cynical. She also took command of the Tea Party Convention organizers by announcing that her speaking fee was to be used to support people of her choosing and insisting that her speech be open to the media. "Thank you for the contribution to my PAC and giving me another national audience".

A recent article in, I think, the WSJ opened with the statement that nobody feared Obama. This lady is loaded for bear and letting 'em know it. I stated early and often "Who'd a thunk that Ronnie would come back as the hottest chick on the planet?". It looks like she's got a bit of Ronnie's pardner Maggie in her too.

[mark l.]

good stuff, huey.

[seekeronos]

Proud Liberal thinks that she and her fellow travelers on the Socialist Path™ are the picture of sinless perfection, on the matter of racism and bigotry and intolerance.

I'll tell y'all what. Y'all talk a good game - but with folks like Sen. Klansman "Exalted Cyclops" Robert Byrd among their sainted numbers, to say nothing of being more than willing to toss any "mouthy conservative queers" or "uppity nigras" who decide that liberty and self sufficiency are better than feeding off the government teat under the bus (them coloreds, you know, they's ok so long as they stay on the Liberal Plantation, right?)

The only use y'all have for "diversity" is to "move forward" with your socialist agenda, and then keep them at the bottom, ever bound and stupefied.

The Libertarian Right? We'd like them to live free and pursue their dreams - and perhaps adapt to, and adopt a healthy, mainstream American culture.

[inspectorudy]

It appears to me that this site and several more conservative sites have discovered a "Thingy" on their collective tongue and they can't stop picking at it with their collective teeth. Let her rise or fall without all the insider carping. Did she get this far because of bloggers? Who cares what your opinion is of why she did what she did. To talk hypothetically about the future is constructive and interesting but to daily blast Palin supporters and claim that you know more about HER issues than she, is ludacris. I venture to say that none of you would attend a function unless it was a major one, for the good of the country, after Keene said publicly the nasty things about Palin. As for the fan v supporter meme, why can't there be both? If you read her book and observe how she lives her daily life it's easy to be a fan. If you look at her political struggles and see how she fought her own party's corruption then you can be a supporter.

[Terrye]

I like Palin, I follow her on Facebook and agree with a great deal of what she says. But I have noticed that there are some folks who more than like and respect Palin, they adore her to the point that it is almost impossible to question anything she says or does without all sorts of hysterics. It kind of reminds me of some of Obama's followers and I think it turns a lot of people off who might otherwise be more open to Sarah Palin's message.

[Ricky]

Dan I understand your frustration with some of the Palin "fans". I too had and still have some questions and I was amazed that sometimes I was viewed with suspicion for just asking.

But there is NO doubt in my mind about the fact that Sarah has the qualities that make for GREAT leaders.

She is inspiring, has integrity, she is humble, honest, trustworthy, visionary, and has a servant's heart, and love for the country and its people.

That is what really matters, that is what makes her GREAT. And I do not see these characteristics in any of the potential candidates out there.

Sarah has weaknesses, but she is also objective and smart enough to know her weaknesses (wish Obama knew his), and I am sure she is determined to work on them, which is probably why she opted for the job at Fox.

I am glad she is going through the fire, she will sure turn out to be pure gold. Watch that woman!!

[Ricky]

So Proud Liberal

I am a "colored" and a proud member of the teaparty movement. And there are many more of us, btw, what is this focus on skin color. Oh I forgot, that is how liberals look at things, ask Harry Reid.

[rah]

I had a long comment and I saw it and then it disappeared. What is happening? Was it too long?

[rah]

I am personally a supporter of Sarah Palin. However I also saw last year that many were as ready to worship her as Obama. It is the same phenomena. She is a star and people will follow a star. She has astounding charisma. Those qualities can be great assets and yet have great dangers. Star quality and charisma can get a person to be a leader and elected, it does not mean they will govern well.

One reason she has support is she is willing to fight. Her initial speeches were very good and followed the conservative philosophies. She is a capitalist, she lives the second amendment, and she lives the right to life. She is a remarkable person in that her very life is the embodiment on many conservative values. She did not have to prove she is a conservative immediately.

Romney is brilliant, extremely smart and a great executive. He knows law, finance and government. However his conservative bonafides are questionable since he was wishy washy on abortion and came from liberal Massachusetts. I believe that Romney is a conservative at least by upbringing. I don't blame him in trying to change the model of health care in Mass. It was worth an experiment. The problem was the execution after he left. Spreading the risk and getting a larger pool is basic insurance concepts.

I think it would have been better if Palin had come to CPAC that is where many of the leading candidates come to speak. It gives the major conservatives groups a chance to hear a good speech and check out the candidate. Reagan never missed CPAC.

The Tea Parties are new and growing. If they are to become a true force then they will have to get organized and get both local and national leaders. I don't mean candidates but the people who organize the group into an effective force to produce candidates and get them elected.

Palin has recognized this and the Tea Party convention may have been a good choice to get involved other than admiration of Tea Parties. It seems that this convention is organized by less stellar people and Palin may have agreed to lend her prestige where it is not best used.

I blame that on her lack of staff to research carefully where to lend her talents. Palin has superb political instincts and her delivery is perfect. The GOP convention was a blockbuster of an introduction. Who ever did that speech and modified to her was very good.

Palin book tour was amazing, and good politics. I am not sure about this FOX gig is a good move. It indicates that she has decided to not go for the 2012 nomination. She is young and needs seasoning, but the moment usually only comes once for a Presidential run. I think that moment is 2012 not 2016.

But I am going to wait because Palin does travel a different path and is not conventional and it has worked for her. I don’t think her quitting was a bad move; she had nothing more to do and was tied down by the ethics wars.

The recent interviews do not illustrate her views. She needs to make speeches of substance. Her Facebook writings are very good but she needs to do more op-ed pieces and battle in the laying out her policies ideas and positions. She has to be able to do the talk show circuit. Until she can take the Sunday talk shows and articulate well against serious questions, she is not ready for national office.

The Beck interview was Beck talking and her agreeing. It was not a good forum to get her ideas and she was being polite and agreeing with her host. Her Beck interview was somewhat vapid. She listened to him pontificate and agreed and did not try to voice her particular views. She is cautious. I do see on many interviews her reluctance to articulate her own opinions and she dances away from some issues. I think than is because she has not decided her position or see them as dangerous. I have watched Sarah and she is a consummate politician, She does the meet and greets and is polite. She does not want to offend. I have watched her and she is great at local politics. The National stage is strange to her.

The main drawback is that she seems to be an instinctive conservative and has not taken the time to think through why she has the positions she does. Reagan spent years refining his thoughts and Sarah has not. Perhaps this Fox gig will give her this expertise.

Compared to Obama I believe she would be a better President. Her instinctive conservatism would have been better. But she is still green in the national and international knowledge and needs seasoning. She seems to be a fast learner but she has very little staff and she need people who are loyal to her to be staff. So much the McCain staff has betrayed her and she seems to have problems before engendering personality conflicts. That is deadly as the top executive. She is also thin skinned; hopefully she will develop a tougher skin. At least she does react which is better than allowing herself to be trashed as GW Bush did.

I think she would benefit under Dick Cheney tutelage. I thought that during the campaign. He is smart, knowledgeable and can handle any interview. He is not afraid of an interviewer and Palin need to learn that also.

Conservatives have been so hungry for a candidate to follow and Palin is very good. She has star quality and most of her positions are the same as libertarians and fiscal conservatives. She is a strong supporter of rights and the independent spirit of America. She loves America unlike Obama and friends. The religious fundamentalist also will follow since she has proven her support of life and GOD.

She does not seem the type to push her faith on others so she is not an evangelist as people fear.

Dan you are a contrarian conservative. Often you are very much to the right and you follow your own path. However it did seemed to be criticism where none was warranted. We can be rational but we are not objective. A pundit often tries to be objective and I don't think Palin will be good at that.

Many outside of DC are unaware of CPAC. I have attended and was there in 2008. But CPAC is a mature organization and the new energy for conservatives and libertarians is the Tea Parties. If the Tea parties survive I expect they will subsume the GOP, which may not be bad. The GOP has been too agreeable to crony capitalism, which Obama has taken to new heights. I know that corruption is inevitable for both parties. But conservatives do not condone it and will savage any on our side that condones it. Keene seemed to be a bit cozy and it was cronyism that was at play.

Your pod cast seemed a little too cozy and many did not know the context.
I have no problem with fans of Palin they are what she needs but they can be let down if she does not fulfill their wishes.

However Palin has been trashed as no other new politician has been and so her followers are very touchy about criticism. I understand that reaction. Ziegler was good but he has fallen in love. Palin has to watch out for those that early stood up for her and not follow them into irrationality.

I read the Facebook comments and they were not that bad. Eric needs to toughen up also. We have to be ready to take criticism when we speak up.

If bloggers take it upon themselves to advise candidates then they should be ready for criticism when others disagree.

[Darth Venomous]

Ricky, you gotta excuse Proud Racist. This is the same bastard who said - and I quote - "Gotta love it" in response to black conservative Kenneth Gladney suffering a beatdown in Missouri.

But don't take my word for it. Go see it for yourself.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2009/08/jesse-griffin-cant-help-himself.html?cid=6a00d83451c1db69e20120a53954b2970c#comment-6a00d83451c1db69e20120a53954b2970c

He's been called on it several times over the last few months, and just the other day dared me to post proof that he said it.

Funny thing, though - he STFU after I called his bluff. Wonder why.

[Ricky]

Darth thanks. I just had it with white liberals watching TV, scanning the crowds and counting the dark-skinned like we are still their property. They should get out of the slave-master mentallity, it is the 21st century.