NY Times On "Death Rumors?

Oh, the irony. If anyone should stay away from discussing death rumors, it's the NY Times:

WASHINGTON — The stubborn yet false rumor that President Obama’s health care proposals would create government-sponsored “death panels” to decide which patients were worthy of living seemed to arise from nowhere in recent weeks.

Who are they trying to kid? It doesn't matter what is, or isn't in one bill. The regulation, off the radar discussions and decisions that would flow from this bill would open the door to whatever they wanted. And that's especially true after they start undermining private options and grab up each bit of ground they can on the road to a single payer option.

Then all bets are off and there's only one real way they can control costs - rationing care. And that, in essence, will mean death panels and decisions as sure as can be. Screw that. Don't let them get their foot in the door because government never takes it out of anything they get it into.

But what else can one expect from the New O-Pravda Times these days.

And in the course of talking about runaway costs and ways to reduce them, Obama actually advocated end-of-life panels issuing voluntary guidelines with Timesman David Leonhardt, as reported in the Times

Comments

[Lala]

Another

"Duh! Out of nowhere?

NYT Magazine just weeks ago ran an article by Peter Singer,Why We Must Ration Health Care.

In that article, Singer wrote "

more at http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/08/new-york-times-doesnt-read-its-own.html

[xerocky]

Thanks for posting that Lala.
It's not unlike when O says he was never for single payer, when he's on tape all over the net saying that he is. The message is clear: listen to what I'm saying RIGHT NOW, not what I said last week.

[mark l.]

i love peter singer, the philosopher.

seems like every philosophy 101 textbook has the spectrum of ayn rand, john stuart mills, and the (younger) peter singer, in their moral ethics section.

interesting to see him back off a moral imperative of feeding the starving of the world, for the milder, "rationing" of healthcare.

don't know how to reconcile his fierce urgency to feed to world instantly, for the greatest good, squares with letting people pass for future considerations. looks like he grew up, ran away from his ealrier writings, and came closer to mills.
.

[mark l.]

there are even some critics of healthcare, out there, who would point to the lower life expectancy of the US as a sign of our failure...

funny how the other proponents of obamacare are not seeking to extend our life expectancy.

[mark l.]

wonder what the effects of charging 20 bucks a doctor visit regardless of medical insurance would be, particularliy on the old.

even if it produced a 5% reduction in seniors/ssi/ssd recipients seeking "attention" rather than actual medical care. it would be a huge savings. it would be consistent with addressing the "least productive members" of society, as zeke emmanuel puts it.

it would also knock off the practice of using ambulances as free transportation.

[Lala]

Old Russian drunk in Queens, New York calls 911 twice a week. FDNY has no choice but to respond and take him to the hospital. He laughs.

On another note - podiatrists would soon be out of business if the patients had to pay to have their toenails cut.

[Barbara]

Obambi's selfloathing jews aren't working out so well en toto,
they have one thing in common they HATE America and Israel.
How any proud Jew fell for the speil is beyond logic, the facts were there,
what we are seeing now is redundant.

[Able Stanton]

"It doesn't matter what is, or isn't in one bill."

Classic!

[mark l.]

the "fine line" that the libs are pursuing is that old retired people are taking too much money out of the system.

couldn't the same argument be made in regards to the young welfare recipients?

if one forgets that old people once were producers, and now views them in the 'instant' as drains, how does one avoid looking at individuals who are on govt assitance and always will be on govt assistance, as worthy of more care?

why stop the rationing of care at just age?

the old people will drain the system at high expense over the last few years of their lives, but some welfare recipeint, who will drain the system slower, but over the next 50 years of their lives is noble and worthy of the cash diversion?

the whole philosophy caves in on itself, against liberal beliefs, when practiced on a larger scale.

that they have targetted old people reeks of "agism".

why not apply this philosophy to education?
clearly our education is failing, because we divert money to special needs students. a liberla could point out our investment in education versus our results relative to the world.

if we are to apply the practice of rationing with healthcare, the same principle should be acceptable in education.

[SDN]

Guys, the "death panels" have already been created by the Stimulus Bill, which has ALREADY PASSED.

[mark l.]

i remember the song by pink floyd, "the wall, pt2"

it was complaining about the fact that education was available to students based on how they did on standardized testing...don't pass the test, you don't go to college. period. hence the term, "the wall". wonder if we would have had a barack obama, had such a system been in place.

(a side note: hosted an exchange student from the uk, who explained what happens...the test comes along, and students panic, and lifelong friendships end...society rewards some and dismisses others, at a very young age in the beautiful english system that liberals argue, 'works'.

if we are to adopt a system similar to the uk in regards to healthcare, why not move onto education? all the money we save could go to healthcare.

[SDN]

auto linky no work.

http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=15211#comment-767669

[templar knight]

It's amazing to me that the morons who write for the NYTs don't even bother to read their own newspaper. There's some irony hidden in there somewhere! LOL.

[mark l.]

["Rationing" is the controlled distribution of resources and scarce goods or services.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing

the term rationing implies that healthcare is limited, but the libs are offerring that it is a question of money, not resources.

fair enough...let's start rationing MONEY, the actual resource that they suddenly are concerned with...

or why not just go further into debt for healthcare, as debt for other societal ills doesn't face the same attention?

[Barbara]

Dan,
What the hell is this crap? I am getting "teaparty" email now and it is being
championed as a multilevelmarketing ploy.
Isn't that something these tools fear us this much they are trying to bastaradize
the term "TEA PARTY" so people would in theory put a block on.

Jen Thomas has added you as a friend on Pennsylvania Tea Parties

I just made $1062 this week working from home for google. I cant believe how easy this is. Im recommending this to everyone, check out this guys google blog www.howimakeinternetmoney.com

[MICHAEL SPENCER]

"It doesn't matter what is, or isn't in one bill"

This is pure arrogance. Another postings full of non-specific examples, could be's might be's and rampantspeculation.

Can we have the truth please? Besides there is plenty of rationing going on now. I used to work in HI field. My Dept was called "cost containment" How much rationing do you think we were doing, base on profit and not on medical necc

[mark l.]

"The task of ******* bureaucrats is then to get the best value for the resources they have been allocated. It is the familiar comparative exercise of getting the most bang for your buck..."

excerpt from the peter singer article.

the ****** is just the deletion of the phrase "health care".

without it's specific application, the essense is pure ultilitarianism.

under this 'scripture', paying the poor who reproduce is economic suicide. why not just go with mandatory sterilzation, a cheap and effective means of limiting the growth of non-productive members of society, who tend to produce more non-productive members of society, relative to the rates of the productive members?

funny how 'young' singer wanted to feed the starving without regard to their societal merits or future implications, or consideration of the colder, but accurate, randian philsophy of "if you give something to somebody, they and their future generations will never be able to produce it on their own".

[Lala]

Is it noble to work for a non-profit?

[Xanthippas]

"Then all bets are off and there's only one real way they can control costs - rationing care. And that, in essence, will mean death panels and decisions as sure as can be. Screw that. Don't let them get their foot in the door because government never takes it out of anything they get it into."

Shorter Riehl: "Only the marketplace should be allowed to make decisions about who lives and dies!"

[Lala]

Hopefully my daughter will boycott them too, they cost too much money.

"Whole Foods Shoppers Weigh In

The op-ed piece, which begins with a Margaret Thatcher quote, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money," has left some Whole Foods loyalists enraged. Many say Mackey was out of line to opine against the liberal base that has made his fortune possible.

Christine Taylor, a 34-year-old New Jersey shopper, vowed never to step foot in another Whole Foods again.

"I will no longer be shopping at Whole Foods," Taylor told ABCNews.com. "I think a CEO should take care that if he speaks about politics, that his beliefs reflect at least the majority of his clients."

Countless Whole Foods shoppers have taken their gripes with Mackey's op-ed to the Internet, where people on the social networking sites Twitter and Facebook are calling for a boycott of the store."

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=8322658&page=1

[mark l.]

considering that the united way was getting only 20 cents of every dollar donated to help its causes, and payed over 5 million severance to arimony...is there really anything that is non-profit?

other than giving a bum a sandwich, instead of cash, someone is making a profit.

{on another smaller topic, I was trying to figure out why the left hasn't been scouring the country looking for people who died becuase they didn't have money for healthcare. I tend to figure the argument would hit a brick wall when someone points out the number of people who maxed out on politcal donations to obama, in order to get an inaugural ball invite. so glad to live in a country where people understand priorities...}

[Ran]

Spencer fails to mention that we ration, right now, vacations. Ferraris. Cigarettes. Votes. Butter. Education. Name something that is not...

Spencer also fails to mention that the FREE market more justly rations - and distributes far more rationally - than any committee of government paid eggs heads.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjI0N2E5ZjM0MGU0ZWVkZTdmYTBjNDQ4YTM4YTgzODA=

Andy McCarthy makes the point eloquently, not that the Left wants to understand. Bloody public schools.

[mark l.]

i rememebr reading peter singer's opining about feeding the world...

lookee here...

http://www.fec.gov/finance/disclosure/norindsea.shtml

it seems there is a princeton educator, named peter singer, who donated 250 dollars to obama and 200 dollars to mark udall in colorado.

this would have to be the greatest example of hypocrisy ever performed by a moral philospher.
biggest turd, ever.

[Ran]

"biggest turd, ever." Please don't insult useful fertilizer.

[mark l.]

my last shot at singer...

"In a 2001 review of Midas Dekker's Dearest Pet: On Bestiality, Singer argues that sexual activities between humans and animals that result in harm to the animal should remain illegal, but that "sex with animals does not always involve cruelty" and that "mutually satisfying activities" of a sexual nature may sometimes occur between humans and animals, and that writer Otto Soyka would condone such activities.[35] The position was countered by fellow philosopher Tom Regan, who writes that the same argument could be used to justify having sex with children."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

the guy is interesting, but really can't be taken seriously.
don't let that stop the nyt from expanding his work outside a classroom, and plugging him into their pages as some great moral guide.

[Ad rem]

Lala,

Thanks for the link re Whole Foods. Comments there are running 10 to 1 against Obama's health-date too. Interesting site...ABC....had to leave everything but a blood type in order to post. Then you have to sign this long legal waver......will this be something I regret in the future? Everything about big media and this government is now, for me, under suspicion.

[Ad rem]

Pardon....that would be "health-care". (Flailing fingers do sometimes fail....)

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Old Russian drunk in Queens, New York calls 911 twice a week. FDNY has no choice but to respond and take him to the hospital. He laughs."

We always called them frequent flyers. The typical assesment went something like this: 0300 am, colder than the ice bergs before global warming and it's our fifth run of the night.
Medic: So sir, what is your complaint tonight
patient: I've had a headache and the runs.
Medic: How long have you been ill
Patient: About a week, ten days.
So off we go to the ER, (the entire family will follow in two vehicles) where we learn that meds must be taken as directed by the doctor lest we get illnesses that last a week and have to divert ambulances fom heart attacks, shooting victims or the occaisional poisoned child.

The ambulance ride and ER visit will never be paid for.
You'ns aint seen nothin' yet!

[Dean]

Hi Dan,

I enjoy your work. Your comments, especially on the Birthers, have been spot on.

With regard to H.R. 3200, Section 1233 Here's the provision, in full. It's about Advance directives.

Advance directives are a way that you can give your loved ones directions to take regarding your health if you are incapacitated, so that someone else does not impinge on your freedom to decide how you would like to be treated if you are unable to state this yourself. They are a standard part of medicine--something that have been in place for years.

What the section does is provide for the ability for you to issue advance directives. That's it. You can read more into it, but that's exactly what you will be doing--reading more than is there.

SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.

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(a) Medicare-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) in subsection (s)(2)--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) by striking ‘and’ at the end of subparagraph (DD);CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) by adding ‘and’ at the end of subparagraph (EE); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘Advance Care Planning Consultation

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‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

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‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

5
‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

3
‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(2) PAYMENT- Section 1848(j)(3) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(j)(3)) is amended by inserting ‘(2)(FF),’ after ‘(2)(EE),’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(3) FREQUENCY LIMITATION- Section 1862(a) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395y(a)) is amended--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) in paragraph (1)--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) in subparagraph (N), by striking ‘and’ at the end;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) in subparagraph (O) by striking the semicolon at the end and inserting ‘, and’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(P) in the case of advance care planning consultations (as defined in section 1861(hhh)(1)), which are performed more frequently than is covered under such section;’; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) in paragraph (7), by striking ‘or (K)’ and inserting ‘(K), or (P)’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(4) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(b) Expansion of Physician Quality Reporting Initiative for End of Life Care-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) Physician’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE- Section 1848(k)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(k)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(3) Physician’S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(B) PROPOSED SET OF MEASURES- The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(c) Inclusion of Information in Medicare & You Handbook-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) IN GENERAL- Not later than 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall update the online version of the Medicare & You Handbook to include the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(i) An explanation of advance care planning and advance directives, including--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(I) living wills;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(II) durable power of attorney;CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(III) orders of life-sustaining treatment; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(IV) health care proxies.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(ii) A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(I) available State legal service organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning, including those organizations that receive funding pursuant to the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 93001 et seq.);CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(II) website links or addresses for State-specific advance directive forms; andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(III) any additional information, as determined by the Secretary.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) UPDATE OF PAPER AND SUBSEQUENT VERSIONS- The Secretary shall include the information described in subparagraph (A) in all paper and electronic versions of the Medicare & You Handbook that are published on or after the date that is 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act.

[FrustratedConstitutionalist]

"It doesn't matter what is, or isn't in one bill"

I get the logic, of course. But if you are going to extrapolate government involvement to it's worst possible outcome, why in the WORLD did any of you support the "Patriot" Act (a disgusting name btw), or FISA? You do realize Obama has those powers now, right?

Here's the thing. You can't distrust government when the Dems are in power, and throw all your rights away when conservatives run the show. You can't do that because it's the SAME GOVERNMENT, it just passes from hand to hand. Every power you gave Bush, Barry has, and every one he gives himself will be wielded by the next Republican President.

You folks are avidly opposed to Obama's expansion, but it's a fruitless opposition, because you're just going to start giving up rights when you are back in power. I think we all know when President Palin/Romney/Cheney askes you to throw away your First Amendment for "patriotic" purposes, you will salute and say the Pledge while doing it. I'm sure the Act would be called Speech for Freedom Act or something equally horrific.

I realize how pointless this comment is, but boy do I wish the people who stand for the Constitution ACTUALLY stood for it when they liked the guy in office. There's really no point in defending the Constitution from Obama if you're just waiting to write "TAP MY PHONES" all over it in crayon.

[mark l.]

what are the chances of kent conrad (d)-nd, backing out of the public option, on the same day the messiah is in neighboring mt?

[WBestPresidentEver]

I have yet to hear questions from these people that are going to these meetings with questions of substance that need to be asked and addressed about certain things in the bill that need to be asked about. If these meetings are staged as the left are saying why aren't there good questions asked of these left loony representatives and senator scumbags ? The people coming to the meetings have not read the bill. They need to read it first and then address all the BS in it. And believe me there is a lot of BS in it.
Why hasn't anyone at these meeting Obama is having asked him. HAS HE READ THE DAMN BILL ?
Oh, I forgot. He is going to districts with democrat representives in those places and they are screening and giving out tickets only to Obama loyalist IN THOSE AREAS.
No republicans allowed. OH...I FORGOT ABOUT THAT.

[MICHAEL SPENCER]

FC, great post. I always wondered what Repubs where thinking when they gave all that power to Bush. One day, a Dem Pres would be in. Now they are complaining about expansion under Pres. obama. I hated the Patriot Act, little concern about HC expansion, but HC is broke so something has to be done. And WBESTPRESIDENTEVER...where were you at Katrina, Iraq, Plame, Afghan, Patriot ACT, Dick Cheney, etc...