Death-ocrat's Co-Ops A Contagion, Not A Cure

Senator Kyl calls the health care Co-Op option a "Trojan Horse". Whether it's a contagion, or Trojan Horse, in my opinion, it's the same virulent pile of horse crap in the long run. To use a football analogy, letting your opponent drive to your twenty with a first down may not be a touchdown for them, but it certainly isn't good news for you.

The Death-ocrat Party knows exactly what they want to achieve in the end. They've been very clear about that. And every inch they get toward a public option is ultimately part of the plan. The reason they may be willing to come short here speaks to two things.

They know the battle is significant enough to be won over time. And they know this is an important enough gain to matter in their drive to eliminate private health insurance and make it a government run program from beginning to the end.

Cradle to the grave, that's how they view power over the citizen, all for the government's good, while they try to dress it up as the common good. The only thing common about the Democrats is the greater benefit and power that accrues to government, not the people, when it comes to any of their not so grand plans.

We need to hold on to the ball and drive it right back down the field toward their end zone. More privatization, tort reform and increased competition in health care makes the freedom bell ring if we can score in 2010 and again in 2012.

A key member of Republican leadership in the Senate declared on Tuesday that a cooperative approach to health insurance was merely a "Trojan horse" for a government-run system.

In a conference call with reporters, Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) said that while some progressives view the co-op proposal as an unacceptably watered-down alternative to a public insurance option, Republicans think it's still too similar. He indicated that both he and the party would oppose them.

Comments

[SacTownMan]

"...letting your opponent drive to your twenty with a first down may not be a touchdown for them, but it certainly isn't good news for you"

Unless your opponent is the Oakland Raiders!!

[Ran]

This whole vampire needs a stake through every page of its ever-bleedin' heart.

Kill the Bill. All of it. If you have compassion, even a little,

Kill the Bill.

[rrpjr]

"We need to hold on to the ball and drive it right back down the field toward their end zone."

Dead on. It's the only strategy that ever works against the Left. No compromise, no quarter. Call their ideas out for what they are -- regressive and destuctive -- and take it to them with your own ideas which we all know are better. After all, if one opposes the public option as a catastrophe then why not push back toward more privatization rather than public option-lite as in co-ops. But this takes confidence, the clear-thinking courage to demonstrate partisanship in the name of something greater and to make that case to the people. But I don't see the confidence out there on the right. I see too many politicians eager to prove they're "willing to work with this White House toward meaningful reform" and sign on to some bullshit compromise. Thus I suspect the defeat of the public option may turn out to be a pyrrhic victory.

[mark l.]

"We need to hold on to the ball and drive it right back down the field toward their end zone."

we need woody hayes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVJyf0ft3I

[IslamoLlama]

"-- Senator Kyl calls the health care Co-Op option a "Trojan Horse". --"

You guys are so out of touch it's embarrassing. You've got Senator Conrad, of North Dakota - a state with 70% of the market controlled by Blue Cross - pushing an idea for insurance co-ops. And you've got Blue Cross, registered as a non-profit in North Dakota, ready to line up as a co-op in the same state.

This, in the face of a President, a majority of Dems in both houses of Congress, and millions of progressives who have lined up behind a full government owned insurance option. An alternative no one but Kent Conrad supports, and it's a trojan horse for socialism. Or so says Senator "Government is gonna kill your Grandmother" Kyl.

[Dan Riehl]

Language, Islamo - I really don't want to have to tell you, again. So, I doubt I will.

[Nishner]

Republicans are a wholly owned-subsidiary of the insurance companies. Of course they're not going to support any reform, especially anything that might cost the insurers $$$$$.

The only reform Republicans are going to back is what lines insurers' pockets. The Party of No, signed, sealed and delivered.

PS. There are no Death Panels. Anyone who believes, mouths the words is clueless.

[anon]

Out of touch? Have you seen the polling on Obama and health care reform?

LOL.

[geoffb]

Fannie-Freddie-care. To be co-opted. Barney Franked. Used to inject a killer virus into the private insurance market so it will roll over and beg for a bailout/takeover.

[MarkJ]

Nishner,

"Republicans are a wholly owned-subsidiary of the insurance companies. Of course they're not going to support any reform, especially anything that might cost the insurers $$$$$."

Don't know about that, but I do know you're a wholly owned subsidiary of Obama. Don't you ever get tired of being a glassy-eyed, agitprop-mumbling thrall?

[Nishner]

When half the Republican party believes Obama wasn't born in the United States, I'd say out-of-touch is a fairly generous description.

[geoffb]

"No Death Panels", but there is a Council, already established and funded in the Stimulus Bill. Now in the HR 3200 we get a "Center" and a "Commission"

Starting at the middle of page 501 of the pdf version of HR 3200

"TITLE IV--QUALITY, Subtitle A--Comparative Effectiveness Research, SEC. 1401.
Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research"

and

"The Secretary shall establish an independent Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (in this section referred to as the `Commission') to oversee and evaluate the activities carried out by the Center under subsection"

Both of these to be part of the Social Security System "title XI of the Social Security Act"

"Comparative Effectiveness", that wonderful euphemism for the rationing of heath care spending. The Council/Center/Commission which shall decide who gets what treatment, drug, medical device under a single payer system.

But no "panels" and they are not named "death". We should call them "NICE" like the one the Brits have that rations care over there, it's a sweet name for an ugly thing.

[anon]

Who cares Nishner, the Democrats can pass health care reform without the Republicans!

I guess that means that there are more than a few Democrats who are also wholly owned subsidiaries of the insurance companies.

But, that whole blaming everything on the powerless Republicans is sooo convenient.

[Ran]

"When half the Republican party believes Obama wasn't born in the United States, I'd say out-of-touch is a fairly generous description."

Good point. When the other half wakes-up to the usurper's lies, they'll be ticked-off. Heh.

Bloody public schools.

[Nishner]

Yes, there are a few Dems that seem to be more interested in collecting bribes, I'm sorry, campaign donations, from insurers that doing what's best for their constituents.

And you're also correct the Dems can pass Health Reform with the Repubs. I'm for it.

Anyone that believes Obama was not born in the United States is in the same intellectual league as The Flat Earthers.

Gee, reviewing programs that spend billions of dollars. How alarming!

Get a clue - there are NO Death panels.

[rrpjr]

The Left was miserable and hateful out of power. They're equally if not more miserable and hateful in power.

Is it possible for you folks to enunciate one of your innumerable social goods in optimistic and persusasive style?

[Anon]

It's crazy, but true. The Left is just as vitriolic and hateful when they control two of three branches of government as they did when they were the minority party.

The reason is that they don't feel "happy" unless they have some evil entity to do battle against, even if its imaginary.

All this prattle about Republicans and tea baggers and Sarah Palin and lies and town halls putting a stop to their glorious health care revolution, when They've Had The Votes The Whole Time.

It does however point to Obama as being unable to control his own party, AT ALL.

[Nishner]

And what would you call lies about Death Panels, euthansia, and putting handicapped kids to death? Would that be vitriolic? Hateful?

And how about the guys walking around Obama events with pistols and automatic weapons? Would that be considered the actions of "happy" people.

http://www.healhealthcarenow.org/

http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/cea/TheEconomicCaseforHealthCareReform/

[geoffb]

"Would that be considered the actions of "happy" people." No just ones who are still free. For now.

Linking to the astroturf groups like "heal health care now" and White House official propaganda doesn't cut it. What they are selling I'm not buying.

I hear the Soma will keep the "happy" going in everyone's life right up to the time the "NICE" people decide it has gone on long enough. Sweet dreams.

[anon]

LOL, you're doing it yourself right now...getting hysterical about people who don't matter and cannot have any effect on health care legislation that the Demcrats with MAJORITIES IN BOTH HOUSES and a Democratic president can pass tomorrow if only they had the will.

A government run health care system will eventually, inevitably end up rationing care and that care will be rationed based on some criteria or other, such as age, productivity, etc. It's the slippery slope, and if the last 40 years have taught us anything it should be that the slippery slope argument always come true.

[Nishner]

The facts don't back up your arguments. There are a number of national health care systems that contain costs better than we do and cover far more people. Our current system does far more rationing than any of the government run systems in the industrialized nations.

And yes, the Dems can pass a bill without the Republicans. And that's what they'll probably end up doing. They know it's political death if they don't get some sort of bill through. And there's enough Progressives in the House who won't vote for a bill without a Public Plan. So the odds of some sort of Public Plan are still pretty good - better than 50 / 50.

[Anon]

This isn't France or Germany or Switzerland. What works there will not necessarily work here. But, you'll find out.

[Lala]

Armed men at rallies - oh the horror

"But the media reaction was markedly different nine years ago when a group of Black Panthers marched on the Texas Republican Party’s state convention on June 2000 brandishing AK-47s. Indeed, that incident itself was chalked up as then-Gov. Bush’s fault by none other than then-MSNBC "Equal Time" co-host Paul Begala."
http://www.newsbusters.org/ (at 15:11 August 18th)

[Lala]

When socialists run out of money

" The wheels are falling off

The first crack in Canada’s healthcare monster has appeared. After 21 years of long lines inefficiencies sneaking into America for treatment and other fraudulent conduct forced on decent people a June 2005 Canadian Supreme Court reversed laws against outlawed private health insurance.

According to the Canadian Medical Association, (CMA) Canada’s health care system is in serious danger of collapse. They think things are so bad and so critical they are meeting next Sunday in Saskatoon to discuss what has to done. "

http://www.collinsreport.net/

[rrpjr]

"They know it's political death if they don't get some sort of bill through."

And it's death if they do. Which I find funny. Obama could have invited all the interested parties across the spectrum of American medicine and insurance into a public process of hearings in conjunction with a bipartisan commission and introduced legislation in 2010. They would have triumphed and Obama would have gotten the lion's share of credit. Instead, the Left sent out their edict for "reform" to a team of lawyers, who cooked up a prolix and unpalatable 1200 pages larded with more overbearing bureaucratic carte blanche than even Orwell could conceive of, and which no politician had even read much less been able to interpret to his constituents.

And that's why the guy with the handicapped son is mad. And he's probably even madder because he's basically a happy guy and doesn't like government interfering with his pursuit of it. And while too many Americans probably haven't read Orwell, they have enough sense and experience with government to know that a thousand or so pages of Big Brotherish pig Latin doesn't lead anywhere else but into Twilight Zones like "death panels" -- a fact pretty much admitted by the politcians hitherto trying to shove it down our throats, that is before good old healthy American outrage drove them to rewrite the section of the bill which enumerated, er, death panels.

And you're an equally poor student of the human condition as you are of the language if you believe the guy toting the gun at the town hall meeting is not basically a happy guy or that what he said to Chris Matthews was anything close to "vitriol." But in case you didn't see the interview, it was Matthews who provided the vitriol.

The entire agenda of the Left thus far has been based on panic and doom. If the "stimulus" didn't pass immediately we were headed for disaster. Then if we didn't pass cap-and-trade -- without hesitation and without debate -- we were all headed for encironmental disaster. Likewise with the "healthcare" bill. Americans are waking up not only to the reality of the cheap bamboozlement behind the stimulus, but to the con-job these others might be.

Panic and doom. You could try selling one of your ideas on some other premise. Or you could just keep it up, and let the people teach you the true meaning of each.

[Lala]

France is in trouble too with their Universal coverage -

*

* The Wall Street Journal

* AUGUST 7, 2009

France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html#mod=whats_news_free?mod=igoogle_wsj_gadgv1

[Hyman Roth]

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/18/video-dem-wants-to-eliminate-private-health-insurance-altogether/

Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) says his aim is to eliminate all private insurance — which is why he will not yield on the public-plan option:

"Host: So, Anthony, I figured it out over the break. You actually do want the federal government to take over all of health care.
Weiner: Only in the sense that the federal government took over health care for senior citizens 44 years ago.
Host: You want to expand that for all Americans.
Weiner: Correct. I want Medicare for all Americans."

[Lala]

Weiner's been going to senior citizen centers to push his plan. The other day they got angry with him because he delayed their lunch.

[mark l.]

anybody catch the bob beckel article at rcp...

"Dems' Ace in the Hole on Health Care: Tort Reform"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/18/dems_ace_in_the_hole_on_health_care_tort_reform_97919.html

i like the "ace in the hole" argument, but the reality is that the rest of the table has folded. the drudge headline alludes to the idea that the dems are now just playing poker with themselves.

******************************************************

just glancing around at countries based on external debt/gdp...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
(look at the last column)

in the spirit of...
"This isn't France or Germany or Switzerland..." i'll also include the numbers for the UK.

external debt/gdp as a %:
UK...375%
Switzerland...442%
France...212%
Germany...160%
USA...95%

so basically, pick one of those countries, the one you would have us admire, and tell me which debt seems better.

considering our gdp is 13.84 trillion...

we could have 38.75 trillion dollars if we sell bonds like the UK.
we could have 48 trillion dollars if we sell bonds like Switzerland.
we could have 16.2 trillion dollars if we sell bonds like France.
germany's ratio provides for 9 trillion.

since current estimates by wiki put healthcare spending at 15.3% of our gdp, 2.11 trillion, we could have 18 years of free healthcare for everybody, before we would catch up with the UK.

[mark l.]

"Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) said that while some progressives view the co-op proposal as an unacceptably watered-down alternative to a public insurance option, Republicans think it's still too similar."

i can't see how this is possibly going to work.

everytime the admin goes to wink at the progressives, hinting tha the 'co-op' is just the 'rebranding' of the public option, the cameras will catch them.

even stranger...they are going to pass the plan off as a milder verison of what they wanted, while simultaneously freezing the gop out. epic fail.

[Adjoran]

This "co-op" stuff is pure, unadulterated BS.

A true "co-op" is founded by its members, funded by its members and their private means, and controlled by its members. That is what a "co-op" IS.

Schumer (in a rare moment of candor) described the proposed "co-ops" as being set up by the government, subsidized by the government, and subject to government mandates as to the coverages they may offer. I don't know exactly what that is, but I know what it is NOT, and it is NOT a "co-op" by any heretofore accepted understanding of the term.

What they are saying is, "Okay, you the people find the 'government option' repugnant and unacceptable, so we'll give you the same damned thing with a different label, and you will like it!"

[Bob C]

Well said, Adjoran. If these 'co-ops' are such a panacea for what Dems believe ails us, why is it that government needs to fund them? Let them raise capital on the markets, maintain cash reserves, submit to GAAP accounting just like any other private entity does. Here is a question every citizen should be asking any congresscritter who supports this bill: you say that we can fund this bill with, among other things, hundreds of billions of dollars in savings wrung out of Medicare/Medicaid. Why don't we do that first...and then let's consider new spending? If there are such savings out there, what the hell are we waiting for? The president has touted paygo for new spending: make him put his money where his mouth is. Pay first, and then consider going.

[Anon]

Mark,

I think the Dems would be very happy with 18 years of free health care before it bankrupts the country...that would get Obama and just about everyone else off the hook...and 20 years down the road, they'll just try to raise taxes again.

The Democrats are the Scarlett O'Hara party 'they'll think about it tomorrow'

[Hyman Roth]

Knishner displays his ignorance:

"And how about the guys walking around Obama events with pistols and automatic weapons?"

Automatic weapons? Nope. Never happened. Stop lying.

Why should anyone take a liberal's opinion on gun control seriously when they don't even know the difference between a semi-automatic firearm and an automatic firearm?

Why not let your auto mechanic conduct your appendectomy?

[Bob C]

Conservatives...no need to even respond to the idiot talking points our liberal trolls are pushing here...nonsense about weapon-bearing opponents, Nazi salutes, and other such tripe. Keep your eyes on the prize: this bill must be stopped, period. No "co-ops", no federal mandates, no government health insurance. Government meddling in the health insurance markets has done catastrophic damage already. If ANY form of this bill is passed and signed into law, there will be no turning back, and it will add to the bankrupt SS, Medicare, and other massive entitlements. Keep your powder dry, and deal with the bill, not the politics of the process.

[Nishner]

Knishner displays his ignorance:

"And how about the guys walking around Obama events with pistols and automatic weapons?"

Automatic weapons? Nope. Never happened. Stop lying.

Lying? Really?

By the way, I grew up on a farm. I've been using around and using guns since before I started schoo.

************************
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hctDBUKMR4V-lGBrEQcYNO0ooBQAD9A4TG402

PHOENIX — About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

**********
People like they're government health care. Teabaggers are even showing up at rallies with signs waring the government to "keep its hands off my Medicare". Once a public option is actually passed, people will like it. Lower premiums, no rescission, no spiraling cop-pays when you get sick, as much or more choice than any private plan.

And, of course, no Death Panels.

[Nishner]

Ignorance? Hmmmm
Knishner displays his ignorance:

"And how about the guys walking around Obama events with pistols and automatic weapons?"

Automatic weapons? Nope. Never happened. Stop lying.

***********

PHOENIX – About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

And NO ONE, liberal, conservative, libertarians, whatever, should be allowed to carry guns to political rallies.

**********
Without Health Care Reform, the country is going bankrupt. We spend more per capita than any other country in the world. Yet somehow reforming the system so it's more efficient is going to bankrupt us. Lunacy.

Oh yeah, there's no Death Panels in the Public Plan.

[Lala]

Is he ignorant or is he lying?

"The proliferation of Obama’s gaffes and non sequiturs on health care has exceeded the allowable limit. He has failed repeatedly to explain how the government will provide more (health care) for less (money). He has failed to explain why increased demand for medical services without a concomitant increase in supply won’t lead to rationing by government bureaucrats as opposed to the market. And he has failed to explain why a Medicare-like model is desirable when Medicare itself is going broke.

The public is left with one of two unsettling conclusions: Either the president doesn’t understand the health-insurance reform plans working their way through Congress, or he understands both the plans and the implications and is being untruthful about the impact."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aJ01reSCujDQ

[Ran]

"Live Free or Die!"

Libertarian-Conservative understanding: "Live [independently and responsibly] or Die!"

Statist-"Progressive" understanding: "Live [on someone else's tab for] Free... or Die!"

BY THE WAY...

NONE of the weapons was "automatic" in the BATFE definition. They were every one of them semi's. I'll agree with Nish... It's stupidly provocative (even if it's legal) to carry at an event. For one thing, if Nish ever saw a real AR-15 semi up close, he'd crap his diapers. Folks... you do NOT want that to happen.

[Troll Hunter]

Did anyone bother to note that the dude with the AR-15 was BLACK? Yup. I'm beginning to understand Nish's resentment. Anyone with even *a clue* about the racist origins of gun-control laws would understand poor, frightened Nishy. Awww.

[anon]

The Democrats dont' care what universal health care costs, get that through your heads!

They know that once you get the entitlement in place, it will go and go and go until the country itself is finally broke.

That is why EVERYONE knows that SS and Medicare are going to bankrupt the country but nobody can get any changes to it.

They don't care.

[Mike2Cents]

I think it's fair to say that the gun toting, idaho militia types are the exception at these events. but it's also fair to question as to why/how they were invited to the party...

'death panels' - I'm sure it was a big concern before it was absurdly presented as real and turned into a catch phrase. In fact the closest thing we have to 'death panels' is the current system, where pvt. insurance companies are designed to profit through denials of care and treatment....and in fact do. no problem with that, huh?

also - this is great:

http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2009/08/ive_got_a_creepy_feeling_sarah.html

[Nishner]

I grew up on a farm. I'm pretty familiar with guns.

Reforming health care isn't going to take any of your freedoms away.

[Mike2Cents]

Nishner -
They are just nitpicking that you referred to a semi-auto as an 'automatic' thus implying that it was a fully automatic weapon. And also, that by making this simple and understandable mistake you were 'lying'.
Not easy to have a real argument here, but sometimes fun to try.

[Darth Venomous]

"Not easy to have a real argument here, but sometimes fun to try."

It helps when you have verifiable facts & credible sources. You might look into that for once.

[Mike2Cents]

As in "Death Panels", Darth?
I am all for folks working from verifiable facts & credible sources..and I appreciate you reminding everyone.

[Nishner]

That we pay more for health care per capita than any country in the world.
That more of our GDP goes to health care than any country in the world.
That we cover a smaller % of our population than any industrialized nation.
That government run health care has much lower admin costs than commercial insurers.
That government run health care has a higher satisfaction rate than commercial insurers
That we have a lower expected life span than any other industrialized nation
That commercial health care insurers make 200+ billion a year.
That for all the extra money we spend, our health is no better than countries that spend far less
That our health care costs are rising faster than any other nation.
That there are no Death Panels

[Nishner]

That we have a lower expected life span than any other industrialized nation

Should be

That we have a lower expected life span than most other industrialized nation

I would hate to mislead anyone.

[Fishner]

"I think it's fair to say that the gun toting, idaho militia types are the exception at these events. but it's also fair to question as to why/how they were invited to the party..."

I completely agree with Mike2Cents. We need more gun control laws to keep those negros disarmed and docile. Who the hell do these black guys think they are, trying to participate in the political process? Get back on the plantation, boy!

Chant it with me, brother Mike... "and I say... segregation today... segregation tomorrow... segregation forever!"

[Mike2Cents]

Fishner -
See Darth's V's admonition above...I think you're trying to say something, but...pretty incoherent the way you wrote it. Feel free to try again, post deep breath.
Or maybe there's a gun control on racism thread you can find...or is ALL just the same thing?