Obama Con Call: Liberal Bloggers Only

This is the guy who was only going to unite and not divide. Stay tuned to learn that it's the opposition's fault because they're so bombastic and out of ideas, they're a waste of time. What this really means is, his health care proposal is in more trouble than perhaps some thought. He's circling the wagons, and tightly, at that.

President Obama wanted to tell us directly what's going on.. He wants the bill to be strong with an excellent public option. The status quo is unacceptable for Americans as premiums are skyrocketing.... Doing nothing is defending the indefensible

Opponents are offering up nothing and admit that they are just trying to stop it. He mentioned Jim DeMint and Bill Kristol as examples of obstructionism.
Liberal Bloggers have done an excellent job of debunking right wing myths...

Bloggers have played and will play a critical role in passing legislation...

Comments

[North Dallas Thirty]

Latest bombshell.

This board has been infested with leftist puppets like Bob, Nishner, Slide, and Wally Sandaver who have been screaming about how thousands of people die and go bankrupt for lack of health insurance each year, and how if you don't support Obama's plan, that means you're callous and dishonest and want all those people to die.

Well, turns out the Messiah and the Obama Party don't care much either.

"President Lyndon Johnson signed the Medicare law on July 30, 1965, and 11 months later seniors were receiving coverage. But if President Barack Obama gets to sign a health care overhaul this fall, the uninsured won't be covered until 2013 — after the next presidential election.

In fact, a timeline of the 1,000-page health care bill crafted by House Democrats shows it would take the better part of a decade — from 2010-2018 — to get all the components of the far-reaching proposal up and running."

And it gets better.

"First comes the pain. In 2011, the government would start collecting higher taxes on upper-income people to pay for the overhaul. The uninsured would have to wait until 2013 before they started receiving the benefits — after the 2010 and 2012 elections."

In short, these leftist shills are screaming about people who are dying "right now" -- yet their Obama Party plan does nothing to help these people FOR FOUR MORE YEARS.

Propaganda. Lies. Spin. A pure example of the utterly-disgusting rot and decay that is the core of the Obama Party, in which the very same "corpses" they drag out for their propaganda are thrown away when they're no longer necessary.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Link for above:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32013032/ns/politics-white_house/

[Troll Hunter]

"that means you're callous and dishonest and want all those people to die."

Careful. I won't miss Boob, Nishnutz, Preparation "S", Wee Wally or even Pat "the Great Master" Bateman should they get banned. But no-one wants to see 'em die, lad. Not die.

[MarkJ]

"[Obama] wants the bill to be strong with an excellent public option."

Oh lovely. Coming to a movie house near you: "Barry and Rahm's Excellent Public Option."

Know what the difference is between the above movie and "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" is? For a start the people who put together "Bill and Ted" actually utilized wit, intelligence, creativity, and logical thinking while producing it.

[Rich K]

Bravo on the updated info NDF. I have been informing my retired folk friends of all this loving info on thier future care and so far it seems to be working as I hear a lot of things like" no way they would do that" and " worthess bastards the lot of them".
As to the "No ideas just pushback" crap I will only say that Ive heard about tax credits like the self employed already can get and health savings accounts.Those are good options for the average joe but the O'bots dont like those. Gee, I wonder why,,,,,

[Bob]

I still see lots of whining and complaining, but absolutely nothing in the way of alternative plans to reach universal coverage. I don't see any serious discussion among conservatives about those 20,000 Americans per year who die from the effects of a lack of affordable healthcare, or the hundreds of thousands who go bankrupt from medical bills. If you even mention those people, it seems only to deny that they exist, or to say stupid and insulting things like, "Well why don't YOU pay for them then! Ha-ha!" That seems to be the extent of compassion for their "fellow Americans" from the right wing.

But, Troll Hunter, I think you misread something if you think that anyone wants us liberal moonbats to actually DIE. I know for all of your griping, that you guys actually LOVE having us around here. Just think how boring it would be if it were just you wing nuts agreeing with each other all the time. What a snooze-fest THAT would be. And I know that if I were bleeding to death on some sidewalk -- I'm being serious now -- that I could probably, if I had to, trust most of you with my life. Come on, it's not like we're enemies or anything.

But I do suspect that that points out something central about conservative politics. I suspect that most of you are nice, decent people on a personal level. But when you're thinking about anonymous, faceless, theoretical people without health insurance, you have an easier time pretending that those people don't really exist or something. But in fact, they're just as real as you or me, and have problems that would be just as daunting to us if we were in their place. They just happened to get laid off and then become seriously ill, or they had a catastrophic illness that made it impossible to work, and then they lost everything. But you'd rather not give them credit for being regular people like you or me. It's a failure of compassion in a certain way, but on more of a theoretical than a personal level.

[mossberg500]

Gee Bob, it'd be a lot easier to swallow your bullsh!t if the legislation didn't exclude government and union workers. It was supposed to be "shared sacrfice", wasn't it? If it's such a great plan, why won't it cover 100% of Americans?

[North Dallas Thirty]

"I don't see any serious discussion among conservatives about those 20,000 Americans per year who die from the effects of a lack of affordable healthcare, or the hundreds of thousands who go bankrupt from medical bills."

Which is why, Bob, you fully intend for at least 80,000 more of them to die so that you and your Obama Party can make promises you don't have to start keeping until after the 2012 election.

"And I know that if I were bleeding to death on some sidewalk -- I'm being serious now -- that I could probably, if I had to, trust most of you with my life."

Of course you could. But not one of us here would trust you or another member of your party; after all, we know how Mary Jo Kopechne ended up.

"But when you're thinking about anonymous, faceless, theoretical people without health insurance, you have an easier time pretending that those people don't really exist or something."

Actually, no; the vast majority of conservatives here have given of their own time and treasure to help these people. It's you and your party that only sees them as propaganda tools and who demands that other people be taxed to pay for your unwillingness to help them yourself.

[SacTownMan]

"If it's such a great plan, why won't it cover 100% of Americans?"

Hell Moose if it was such a great plan for Americans why will it COVER the 12 million illegal aliens that are part of that "45 million uninsured" figure the moonbats like to use??

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/health_care_obama/2009/07/19/237484.html?s=al&promo_code=83A3-1

Think about it, of the 45 million figure they use 12 million are illegal aliens. For those moonbats like Xerxes that smoked pot and did coke in college that leaves 33 million uninsured. Out of that many are eligible for healthcare (SCHIP) and other options but don't sign up. There is a large number still over 300% of the poverty level that can afford it but choose not to provide for their families like our troll friends want to do. Those car payments and the 3000 sq. ft house are much more important than protecting those pesky kids anyway.

http://keithhennessey.com/2009/04/09/how-many-uninsured-people-need-additional-help-from-taxpayers/

Read the link for some insight into the real question which is how many people need help from the taxpayer? Come on trolls you could really use some education here so really read the link! (I know it's not Huffington or Koz but try anyway!)

Now America needs to decide if destroying the greatest healthcare in the world for the 10-15 million that is left is worth the price his assholeyness is asking when 250 million already have it!

[Shirley]

I usually just read and don't comment on blogs. But here goes. I have voted Republican ever since the Carter vote.But it is obvious to me that none of you or your family have ever been through a health trauma.
My son was 21, in the middle of college. Was always very healthy. Had no insurance. He worked part time and got loans and grants to go to college. He got very ill. Wound up with a disease called Crohns. He went from 176 pounds to 100 pounds before the doctors could do his surgery. It was the holidays, so they had to go an thanksgiving vacations and then Christmas before he could get his surgery.They let an intern do his surgery instead of the actual surgeon. He botched it.They did a second surgery that night and could not find where the blood was coming from so sewed him up and sent him home 3 days later, this was a Friday. Sunday evening he looked like he was dying to me. So I took him back to emergency room. They had to do an emergency third surgery, he had come apart where they had sewn him and had peritonitis. He was in ICU now barely alive and bleeding profusely out of a tube to drain infection from his body. After 19 units of blood and plasma they had to do another surgery.At this point he could not even sign to give them permission to do the surgery, his Dad and I had to do it.This is the 4th surgery in 13 days. They did not expect him to survive this one. By the grace of God he did survive.From the time they did the second surgery and did not find where that blood came from until this point he had been bleeding internally where a vessel had been nicked during the first surgery. Then he wound up with a $250,000.00 hospital bill alone,that means it did not include the doctors, radiologists, etc. He also had an ostomy bag.For those of you who don't know what this is, he had to have bowel movement in a bag on the outside of his body.He had been cut open at this time from just under his chest bone to the pelvic bone 4 times and could not be sewn up. He had an open wound and had to heal from the inside out. Then one year later he was opened up all the way again to reverse the ostomy, put his intestines back together inside him. Four of these five surgeries were from letting an intern who was not ready do such a dangerous procedure. By this time he was 22 and had to file bankruptcy. There was no way he could ever pay all of these bills, nor us. We could probably have sued.But we're forever grateful that our son was alive. We also knew that he would have died without the free service of the surgeon who did it as a favor to his crohns doctor.

All I am saying is put yourselves in the place of other people Before you judge. You need to walk a mile in someones shoes before you condemn and pass judgement.

I am very much in favor of health care for everyone. I won't go into all of why we did and do not have health care.But we did until they went so high on premiums we could no longer afford it. I am a Republican,poor,laid off from work now, believe myself to have better morals than a lib and believe in working all we can to take care of ourselves,we have worked 6 days a week most of our lives. But I am a human and an American citizen.Every one of us counts. Every life is prescious. Bod Bless!

[Shirley]

So sorry, that should have ended God Bless you.

[Lala]

Shirley,
Very sad, but your son did have health care, he just didn't hav e insurance.

[Fen]

"Well, turns out the Messiah and the Obama Party don't care much either."

Fen's Law: The Left doesn't really believe in the things they lecture us about.

[Fen]

"But when you're thinking about anonymous, faceless, theoretical people without health insurance, you have an easier time pretending that those people don't really exist or something."

You're joking right? This from the side that wants their MTV, decaf latte and cheap oil economy - and if 25 million "anonymous, faceless, theoretical" arabs have to suffer tyranny and brutality, so be it. You got your Liberty, so screw them. Its all about Bush's "illegal immoral" war to your side of aisle. And you guys don't even believe that, you just use them as a prop (Lancet bs studies) to gain political traction during wartime.

And you have the nerve to play that card now?

[phil]

As to Shirley's story, it's horrific to face such personal and wealth destroying catastrophies. So when I was out of work I bought a Catastrophic Health Ins policy. Much lower cost than 'health insurance', it only paid if bills went over $10,000 for the family. No payment for routine Dr visits, tests, prescription drugs, whatever. That is the kind of insurance folks without 'health insurance' need to prevent bankrupcy. It's available at a much lower cost than the mis-named health insurance which is really pre-paid medical expenses minus a deductable. Of course this makes too much fiscal sense and won't please the ever growing constituency demanding everything 'free'.

[Philip McDaniel]

“I still see lots of whining and complaining, but absolutely nothing in the way of alternative plans to reach universal coverage.”

There are several out there, take the time to look them up. There are several ideas around on how to implement health plans with enough flexibility to be able to adjust to unanticipated results.

“I don't see any serious discussion among conservatives about those 20,000 Americans per year who die from the effects of a lack of affordable healthcare…”

You are either not looking hard enough or are not listening to what we are saying. This is a number one topic among conservatives.

“…that I could probably, if I had to, trust most of you with my life.”

Yes. However, I will never trust a leftist to do the same. I have personally seen them not only step over someone who was wounded but actually kick someone who was down!

“But when you're thinking about anonymous, faceless, theoretical people without health insurance, you have an easier time pretending that those people don't really exist or something.”

What arrogant nonsense! What the hell do you know about conservatives anyway? “Faceless, theoretical people?” I have three in my family – one dying of cancer, all three suffering and unable to get insurance. WE DO WHAT WE CAN. We certainly do not look for some chuckleheaded bureaucrats in Washington to come fix our problems. They will only make things worse as they always have when they meddle in things they know nothing about, and they know nothing about almost everything except how to tax and spend, travel and party it up.

[Lala]

Phil, I have that policy, but - in NY I must have basic insurance also or I can't have it.

[syn]

"But it is obvious to me that none of you or your family have ever been through a health trauma."

You are quite blessed your son was able to live through a health trauma.

My dad ended up dying; medicare would not cover certain treatments so he went to Aurthur Anderson in Houston, out of pocket, but by then it was too late as the cancer had spread throughout his body. Three months from diagnosis to death yet he was a great believer in preventive health care dedicated to bi-yearly check-ups, hated smokers, exercised, kept his weight just under normal but only made it to age 69.

My mom ended up dying too; they were able to get her blood down stopping the growth of the tumor in her brain and we were blessed with five more years. We took care of her at her home, her wish was to pass in peace in her own bed. She was diagnosed around the same time as my father yet managed to live five years longer.

In either case, universal health care would have not changed the outcome or the price paid; doctors can only do the best they can but most importantly there is no rhyme or reason when it comes to life and death.

I pray I am as graceful as my parents.

[Good Lt.]

If Obama's plan is so great, why doesn't he want to put his own kids on it? He was asked this, and he said that he wouldn't.

For that matter, why doesn't Congress surrender their health care immediately upon passage of the bill and go on their own craptastic statist option as well?

If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for them. They work for us - not the other way around, as many O-bots seem to think.

And for those erecting and smashing the strawman that "opponents want to do nothing," it's your Democrat party that has opposed all of the alternatives put forth by the other side. It isn't that they're not putting them forward - it's that this corrupt, hyperpartisan administration doesn't want to hear any alternatives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHbwdZXeUFo

So if this fails, which it will, It's Obama and the Obamacrats' fault.

And they know it, as you can see by the increasing hysterical tone of their rhetoric and their "flood the zone" trolls in the blog sections of late. According to most current polling, they're just not fooling as many people as they did last November, and they're going insane because the magic has worn off.

[fustian]

Shirley: under Obamacare that surgery that saved your son's life wouldn't have happened since you'd be waiting in line for your turn at a doctor.

You've gotta love the left, they never learn. They continually make the claim that if one person on this planet suffers from anything, that all of our customs and social systems must change. And they'll tell you just how they must change. Usually some variant of socialism.

What they don't tell you is that, in the end, the people that suffered under the old system will still suffer. The big difference is that the rest of us end up joining them.

[syn]

"in NY I must have basic insurance also or I can't have it."

I'm in NYC, self-employed and have Phil's exact same policy which does not require 'basic insurance'; I pay $470 per month , single-person coverage but I can afford $470 because I do not go to Broadway shows, dine out every night, buy Manolo shoes or Sumner in the Hamptons like many of friends who receive health insurance through their employers. Actually one of my friends treats his employer-provided health insurance as a social-networking plan, he's addicted to making weekly appointments with doctors to the pooint that he is now a hypchrondriac.

It's my choice even though my friends think I am a boring slug because I'd rather pay for my own insurance than see a Broadway show, buy Manolo shoes, dine out every night or Sumner in the Hamptons.

[Suzy]

Can Bob please point us to the report or study showing that hundreds of thousands go bankrupt from medical bills every year? I have heard this so-called statistic cited by liberals who support government run healthcare, but I don't know where this figure comes from. I know plenty of people who filed bankruptcy after a business failed or they lost their job and tried to save their house through BK, but never for medical bills. In fact, I know 3 uninsured people in the last 2 years who were successfully treated for serious cancer and it didn't cost them a cent.

[Neo]

When I saw that 11 or 13 million illegals would be elegible for ObamaCare coverage, I had to ask myself one more time ...

Exactly what is US citizenship worth, except to get in the fast lane at immigration and pay taxes ?

[Lala]

I'm paying $469.50 a month for a full policy for my daughter. GHI/BlueCross/Prescription coverage. You are getting cheated Syn if all you're getting for the same amount of money is a $10,000.00 deductible.

When I bought the catastrophic for my family they said we had to have a basic policy. Of course, the rules may have changed but I'm not aware. Possibly it's because you are self-employed.

[Wacky Hermit]

Some portion of those who (sadly) die from lack of medical care are there through their own choice NOT to pursue medical care even though it was available to them.

Example: my dad was an OB/GYN. One day he was on call and got called in to treat a patient who was 9 months pregnant. She was supposed to be a patient of the other OB in town but she had skipped her appointments. She had a highly preventable infection and since she let it get out of hand, it killed her baby. Now, she could have gone to the doctor. She'd been doing it before. If she couldn't afford it anymore, there's always Medicaid or S-Chip or whatever you've got in your state; there are any number of programs to help pregnant women. That she chose not to get off her butt and take care of business cost her baby's life.

How many people do you know who would rather die of prostate cancer than see a doctor about it? Yeah, THOSE are the ones who die from preventable conditions. It has very little to do with not being able to afford medical care and much, much more to do with people's life choices and priorities. For some of us, not dying of preventable conditions just isn't a priority.

Which of you Obamacare supporters would force everyone to go to the doctor so that you can reduce the statistic of people who die from preventable conditions? Don't all raise your hands at once.

[Lala]

Here's an example of govt health care

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534050,00.html

Airman Loses Legs in Botched Gallbladder Surgery, Future of Career Uncertain

[Sean Hackbarth]

Dan,

For a different take on engaging the publi, the two doctors in the U.S. Senate, Tom Coburn (R-OK) and John Barrasso (R-WY) are talking about health care on "The Senate Doctors Show." You can watch it on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 4 pm ET. Watch it here:

http://republican.senate.gov/doctors/

Sean Hackbarth
Senate Republican Conference

[Swibbie]

"I still see lots of whining and complaining, but absolutely nothing in the way of alternative plans to reach universal coverage"

Of course you don't Bob. You are too busy memorizing liberal talking points to actually take the time to do some research.

Truth is, there are LOTS of alternative plans out there. Take some time, Bob. You may actually become enlightened.

Please show me the Obama plan that provides your so-called "universal coverage" BS. But beware, "at least he's trying" is NOT a good answer.

Furthermore, I agree with the previous posters. You can count on me trying to save your life, but I will NEVER, EVER count on a liberal to help me in any way.

[Fred Beloit]

Shirley, sorry for all your troubles. I am a far lefter. I have always been a moonbat and an asshat, and proud of it. I am sorry to see that my own allies on the left are pulling the wait-until-four-years-from-now wool over your eyes.

It is ssssooooo obvious to me you are a conservative who is disappointed that the government won't provide free health care, a new car, and someone to wash your windows for you. My heartfelt advice to you would be move to Canada or the UK. They know how to take care of Republicans like you.

Meanwhile accept my best wishes. I have to go now. The President is going to phone me and other leftist nutroots to ask us to help him sell his sack of s--- socialism. He'll probably want me to go to conservative blogs pretending to be a conservative. He'll tell me to make up a BS story about how I have personally been harmed by the satus quo.

[Rob Crawford]

"I still see lots of whining and complaining, but absolutely nothing in the way of alternative plans to reach universal coverage."

I don't give a rat's ass about universal coverage. If that's your goal, YOU pay for it.

[Philip McDaniel]

LOL!
Fred, Shirley might not know you as we do, good satire though.

[Gerald]

President Preparing Army of Lefty Bloggers. Ooohhhhh, I'm scared.

http://www.thesubstratum.com/general-politics/president-prepares-army-of-bloggers/

[Gerald]

Any democrat in a blue state knows they'll be replaced by something more useful, like a toaster oven or some soft two-ply toilet paper if they vote for the public option, drive up the deficit, or tax us. ObamaCare is dead on arrival, just like most of us would be under the plan of his most highly esteemed King of All That Walks This Planet.

[Anon]

Everyone seems to be missing the point that $250,000 for 5 surgeries and a long hosptial stay is INSANE, and that is the problem with our health care, there is no way in hell that $250K in actual money was spent caring for this woman's son....it is all how various things are coded for reimbursement for people who have insurance....the hospital knew it would never see a dime of this imaginary $250K they spent on one patient.

That is the problem: the cost has little or no connection to reality.

Even if the surgeons were all being paid $600 an hour and you put the hospital stay at the same cost as a five star hotel, there is no way you can possibly realistically get to half a million dollars in REAL money.

Obama's plan does nothing to adress this fundanmental reason why health care costs are skyrocketing.

[Lala]

My husband had surgery last year and was in the hospital for 9 days. The hospital cost was $80,000.00.

[Anon]

You see that to me is ridiculous, that is almost $10K a day, it seems obvious that there is something drastically wrong with the manner in which reimbursements are paid to hospitals. Even if he was in the ICU the whole time, the real cost can't be anything close to $80K.

[Lala]

comment number 4 on freerepublic lists comments on the healthcare bill by Peter Fleckstein -

link http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2297540/posts

"To: Da Coyote

Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT’s Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill.

It’s worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill. It has Singer’s footprints all over it.

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman’s)"

[kcom]

Yes, the system is so warped by people paying for their needs with other people's money (insurance, government, whatever) that costs no longer bear any relation to actual reality. It's sooo much easier to spend other people's money that there is no incentive to control costs.

If a medical procedure costs twice as much as it should (or you have no clue what it even should cost) but you know someone else is going to pay for it what's your incentive to complain? But if you go out to buy a car and the dealer tries to charge you twice what it's worth you're going to complain very loudly, because your incentive is huge (it's money directly out of your pocket). The result of the difference is that the feedback loop that controls costs in the medical system is completely broken, unlike that in the car market. Adding more layers of other people paying for your medical services is only going to exacerbate the problem, not remedy it.

[SacTownMan]

"But it is obvious to me that none of you or your family have ever been through a health trauma. "

Shirley you jest!

It is hard to buy your story when you lead off with such a statement!

As our friend Fred infers you are either not being genuine or you are a sockpuppet.

I have worked more than twenty years treating cancer patients. Everyday I see the effects of cancer on the lives of my patients and their families. In addition I ,as have so many others here, have lost my mother, father, and brother to cancer. For you to paint such a broad stroke and accuse others of being so heartless is beyond the pale.

There are more than 250 million Americans that have health insurance. These hard working folks have made sure to provide for their families because they have a sense of responsibility and do not go begging to big nanny government for a handout. This country is based on individual freedoms and as such the government should focus on protecting us from threats to those liberties and freedoms and not take over our lives like the god king wants to do!!

[Bob]

After seeing the responses to the healthcare saga of Shirley's son, all I can say is, what a bunch of schmucks. What a bunch of mean-spirited, uncaring, stupid schmucks. You chumps deserve the crappy and expensive healthcare you've got. Hopefully there are enough other people in this country who actually give a damn about their fellow citizens to work towards some kind of universal coverage system. I have to say, I'm really disappointed in you all. You've exceeded even my previous most-cynical notions of what you were really like.

And I love how you pat yourselves on the back for so meekly accepting the current crappy system. You seem to think you're really in the cat-bird seat, when you, like so many others, are just one catastrophic illness away from total ruin. But for now, I guess, you can vicariously enjoy watching it to happen to someone else, because it seems to make you feel so smug. In that regard, Shirley's story seems to have really made your day.

It's interesting to note, too, that all of your objections are about a situation where Obama's plan would let you -- or your employer, in any case -- keep your current insurance plans as-is. So all the fuss is simply about extending such coverage to currently uninsured people. Nobody's taking anything away from you, and you object, apparently, just because you can't stand the thought of all those millions of losers getting the same deal in life that you've got. I have to say again, what a bunch of uncaring, mean-spirited schmucks.

[Lala]

Bob hasn't been paying attention. Obamacare will change all our plans into one big crappy govt plan.
Big O is offering aspirins instead of pacemakers for the elderly. Hasn't Bob seen the latest?

[Anon]

1. You keep your insurance only if NOTHING changes, you change jobs, your employer drops the coverage, you lose your job, then you lose your option.

2. Shirley's story shows exactly why NOTHING in the health care plan is going to address costs, because it is simply not possible that her son's condidtion cost $250K in real dollars.

3. A good portion of 'the ininsured' are uninsured by choice, Obama is going to force them get health care they don't want.

You just don't get it Bob, it is impossible for the health care plan as it is to do what it says it will. I M P O S S I B L E. Eventually, you will find this out, and you may or may not be man enough to admit you were wrong, more likely, you will simply invent a new series of excuses for why the promised utopia of free fantastic health care for everyone didn't materialize

[Nishner]

It's also impossible to continue with the health care system we have cause it's annual price increase are far outstripping inflation.

There are plenty of models for health care systems that provide just as good of care as we have at significantly lower costs - France, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, etc. Yeah, none of them are perfect, but they're all a helluva lot cheaper than ares and when those systems are looked at as a whole, just as good as ours.

[Anon]

That talking point is meaningless because there is NOTHING in the current legislation that addresses cost control, so what you are going to get is a MORE EXPENSIVE health care system that is still crap, you just don't know it yet.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Ah yes, Bob comes back to rant about how anyone who doesn't support the Obama plan hates the poor.

Perhaps you need to read this from Shirley's account, Bob.

"Four of these five surgeries were from letting an intern who was not ready do such a dangerous procedure."

That has nothing, zip, zero, zilch to do with the health insurance process. Nothing at all. Indeed, as the example from the VA showed above, having the government pay for it does not eliminate the chance of medical malpractice.

But that isn't the point here. There literally is no length to which you won't go, no lie you won't tell, no corpse you won't wave to push your plan to steal money from American citizens through the government process, is there?

The next rant from the Obama puppet:

"Nbody's taking anything away from you, and you object, apparently, just because you can't stand the thought of all those millions of losers getting the same deal in life that you've got."

Which is of course, Bob, why you and your Obama Party aren't actually paying for it; you're just levying taxes that will disproportionately affect the poor so that white liberals like yourself don't have to pay for their childrens' healthcare and can instead buy expensive houses in nice neighborhoods and fancy cars.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/03/01_regressive.html

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/children-war-care-1899214-health-government

And, as the facts clearly show above, your own Obama Plan doesn't even cover people for the next four years. Got to avoid doing anything before the 2012 elections, after all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32013032/ns/politics-white_house/

Actually, Bob, the person who's "giving nothing away" is you. You're a welfare addict. You aren't going to pay anything for this because you and your fellow shills live off the productivity of others.

The rest of us who actually work and make a living will pay for this, and we're tired of being told our opinions don't matter and what awful people we are by lying shills like yourself who never pay a dime and expect society to reward them for breathing.

[Nishner]

So Shill, what's your proposal?

[Bob]

"That talking point is meaningless because there is NOTHING in the current legislation that addresses cost control, so what you are going to get is a MORE EXPENSIVE health care system that is still crap, you just don't know it yet."

Yes, anon, the uncaring conservative foot-draggers (again, not necessarily lumping you in with the rest of those schmucks) have succeeded brilliantly at creating a political climate where a truly comprehensive reform of our healthcare system is impossible. Given the mega-millions that the healthcare industry has to buy-off congressmen and purchase advertising on Meet the Press, they get to dictate to the rest of us the terms of our own healthcare. I'd put the odds at 50-50 or less that Obama can even get the current compromise plan passed and enacted, even after having bargained probably more than he should with industry. We have an almost perfect storm opportunity to pass even the modest reforms that the current plans would entail. It's that -- IF that -- or nothing at all for another 15 or 20 years.

And sure, anon, why don't YOU go to Pfizer and Blue Cross and give those bastards their marching orders. Go in and DEMAND that they stop charging so much for their services, and see how loud the laughter gets. Also, go to your local M.D. and tell him to stop ordering so many unnecessary procedures. Or at least propose a sensible and effective mechanism to accomplish the same, if you can't do it yourself [sound or crickets chirping].

[Anon]

Again, the current plan on the table doesn't address any of that, it doesn't include any feasible, realistic way to contain costs.

I'll say what I said from the begining, real health care reform will be PAINFUL, it isn't a pretty fairy tale where you waive your magic 'tax the rich and add some technology wand' and all of a sudden everyone has great, efficient, cost effective health care.

Reimbursement fees will have to be cut, ESPECIALLY to hospitals, and that means that some hospitals will close; and that means to the practitioners of specialty care; payments for frivious and/or routine care will have to go UP, e.g. the more health care you use, the more you pay.

So, what we are getting is only half of the equation: we're bringing the uninsured into the system, even those who don't want to be there...but we're not controlling costs, which means that the allegedly disastrous road we are on w/health care eating up more and more business profits and stiffling small business isn't going to change, health care costs will go UP not down, just like they did in Massachusetts when they implemented their universal coverage plan.

The solution is to FIRST FIX the system so it can manage costs effectively and THEN put more people into it. In the meantime, federally subsidized catastrophic care would provide a safety net for the uninsured who want one.

But you see, that solution is both too simple and too difficult, too difficult because it requires hard choices be made NOW, not punted down the road 10 years, it requires that in REALITY the problems are solved, instead of relying on pie in the sky projections that never pan out and too simple because it makes too much sense ever to be enacted by Congress.

However, I know there is no convincing you.

Did you know that the supporters of prohibition believed it would save the government millions of dollars because crime would virtually disappear and productivity would increase on a massive scale and the population would become healthier and happier?

I'm sure there were literally millinons of people who knew this was all crap, who knew that prohibition would do none of those things, and yet, it was enacted and lasted for over a decade, doing immeasurable harm to the country...

[Nishner]

The health care systems that deliver the most bang for the buck are single payer. You want to cut costs, that's a good place to start the discussion.

[Bob]

"The solution is to FIRST FIX the system so it can manage costs effectively and THEN put more people into it. In the meantime, federally subsidized catastrophic care would provide a safety net for the uninsured who want one."

The problem, anon, is a lack of political will among conservatives that makes any reform virtually impossible. The healthcare industry knows it has the millions of dollars necessary to set the terms of debate. Even Obama didn't dare anger industry by aggressively going after cost cutting right off the bat, probably knowing that they could easily launch the kind of PR campaign -- like "Harry and Louise" -- that scuttled the Clinton healthcare proposal in the previous decade.

As long as there are conservatives and a handful of Democrats willing to take industry money to impede any serious reform, nothing at all is going to happen on the cost control front. Only a united front of truly bipartisan nature would have the power to take on the healthcare industry. And I don't see that happening any time soon. The Republicans could easily have gotten the Democrats on board when they were in power to take on industry and set up a comprehensive system that controlled costs. But they didn't, because they're only in it for the power of the Republican Party and its corporate sponsors. If you can think of a way to break the partisan impasse, good for you, but I see it as being primarily a political, not a practical, issue. And the Republicans are always going to be the main impediment.