The George Tiller Murder

To be honest, I didn't even know who Tiller was, though I'm sure I've seen and heard some coverage of him over the years. Michelle has a round up of links if you're interested.

I won't belittle the significance of the abortion issue. I'm for restrictions on abortion and find some of the Left's pro-abortion lunacy reprehensible. But the battle lines are so drawn on this issue and some of the rhetoric and positions so extreme, I think the whole topic somewhat turns me off.

This is a complex issue that often gets too shrill in the public debate. A nuanced solution is in order, but the most active proponents on both sides don't seem interested in that. So, I generally take a pass on the debate.

Comments

[southdakotaboy]

I take the same general stand as if the someone had gone out and shot a member of the KKK. Not really legal but no great loss to humanity either.

[Dan Riehl]

If I want to repost dailykos, I'll do it, Islamo. You have an opinion of yopur own, spout it. Get your own blog if you want to quote and link libs extensively.

[Nishner]

Last check, we're still a nation of laws. Acts of Domestic Terrorism are no way to settle disagreements and must be condemned by all.

[tim maguire]

What sort of nuanced solution do you have in mind? Either you consider the fetus a person or you don't. Those are the only two sides that exist and which side you come down on compels you to one or another extreme position.

[tally]

I don't debate it much either, both sides are dug in. I did find yesterday where the guy posted on Operation Rescue. One of his posts, if anyone is doing research (it's in googles cache for now):

Scott Roeder Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.
Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

[Nishner]

Assassination / domestic terrorism goes a bit beyond "extreme" or "dug-in".

It's Unamerican and Unchristian. Again, it should be condemned by all.

[cindi]

Tiller has/had blood on his hands. However, gunning someone down in cold blood is not the way to go. If one is pro-life, why would they gun someone down?

On the flip side, I believe what comes around goes around. Not that it justifies murder but, I feel no loss with the murder of Tiller. Seriously, how could this man attend church on Sunday and justify his actions? Ironic.

[Bob]

"If moderate Muslims won't stand up more forcefully against their more radical and dangerous counterparts, then let them feel some heat."

--Dan Riehl, Aug 14, 2006

Well what do you say, Dan, now that YOU'RE SIDE is wearing that shoe? I'm sorry, but according to your own professed principles, it's not an option to just "take a pass." Isn't it about time the right wingers stopped calling those on the other side "terrorist enablers" and lived up to their own rhetoric for a change?

[lala]

I'm with you cindi. Spend your week dismantling babies and go to church on Sunday? My husband had a sister who was born prematurely, weighing less than a pound, in 1944. She lived until she was 13.

[mark l.]

two points:

the black panther/voter intimidation/failure to prosecute-
how many people are facing charges, or have been charged with violating the federal mandated distance from an abortion clinic?

"Well what do you say, Dan, now that YOU'RE SIDE is wearing that shoe?"

the act was committed by one person, or perhaps he had some help. if one person can be held up to represent an entire group, i think they call it stereotyping, then I nominate al sharpton to represent all democrats-by bob's axiom.

dan's observation of a divide in the muslim community is 100% correct. there are many psychotic lunatics to be found in EVERY movement. except the dems of course. they only take 100% sane people.

[tally]

Bob, you are an idiot.

[Old Trooper]

nishner,listen up, a purveyor of Infanticide, with over 60,000 notches on his scalpel got a retroactive abortion. Had Your Mother made the trip to see the "Doc" (Killer)Tiller, You would have been a flush of a toilet and as irrelevant then as You are now. No Assassins involved. Just a medical procedure.

Tell me Laddie, all about Murder, Assassins and evil deeds. Murder of Innocents is unforgivable.
A Murder of Murderers troubles You?

Faulty Logic from You.

[mark l.]

maybe tiller was just an escapee from the 'infant born alive act' who was terminated in his 200th trimester.

[Nishner]

First, you don't know what infanticide is.

Second, abortion is legal in the US. Don't like it? Fine. Get your legislator or judge to change it.

But supporting assassination - which you apparently do - is Unamerican and Unchristian.

[Bob]

"the act was committed by one person, or perhaps he had some help. if one person can be held up to represent an entire group, i think they call it stereotyping, then I nominate al sharpton to represent all democrats-by bob's axiom."

But your side already did that with Bill Ayers, and Riehl himself called Ayers a "terrorist" even though I don't believe Ayers himself ever killed anyone. So, Mark, please explain to us why Ayers is a terrorist and the people who first shot and wounded Tiller a few years ago and now killed him are not? Why are these radical anti-abortion groups not terrorists for repeated acts of bombings, vandalism and violence?

[PA]

Until I hear more about the circumstances I'll reserve judgment. Maybe Tiller was banging the guy's wife or sold him some bad dope...

[tally]

Damn, I must have acquired a pesky reading comprehension problem. I don't see where anyone supports the assassination of Dr. Tiller. Hmmm

[Bob]

But tally, according to right wingers like Riehl, moderates should "stand up more forcefully against their more radical and dangerous counterparts." It's not enough to merely not personally advocate assassination. I'm just asking you to unequivocally apply the same standards that your side professes when the perpetrators are coming from the right wing? Why the reluctance to call this act "terrorism" and denounce it plainly and forcefully?

[SacTownMan]

Wow,

"Tiller the baby killer" gets killed by a "lone gunman" nutjob!

While it is wrong for anyone to "off" someone based on their work this guy had some serious bad Karma coming. His part in the wholesale murder of almost 50 million Americans since Row v Wade is the only reason he was gunned down!

http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

This guy's focus on doing late term abortions is why he is dead today, he obviously pissed of the wrong wack-o.

While I feel bad for this guy's family you can't be suprised that he would be the target of a deranged madman.

The twelth commandment is "Thou shalt maintain a low profile" (right after the eleventh "Thou shalt not marry divorcee's with kids!")

[mark l.]

"But your side already did that with Bill Ayers"

I'd advocate jail time for bombing ANY building. No word yet if the "tiller killer" was a good friend of john mccain.

[mark l.]

more simply bob,

ayers and roeder are terrorists. I wouldn't associate with either.

to be honest, though, I find ayers more similar to david duke. i'm sure any gop would line up to hang out with david duke.

[mark l.]

"But supporting assassination - which you apparently do - is Unamerican and Unchristian."

i see wiki has a modest defintion of assassination...
" Assassination is the targeted killing of a public figure. Assassinations may be prompted by ideological, political, or military reasons."

so when obama called in those airstrikes in pk, he was bascially ordering the assassination of individuals.

if you though obama was "Unamerican and Unchristian", why didn't you speak up sooner?

[mark l.]

here's the argument, in its simplest form.

roeder killed because he believed he was saving lives.
ayers blew up buildings, with little regard to human life, in the belief he was going to save lives.

both men were playing god and are undeniable bags of sh*t.

the animus of hatred that sweeps over lefties for roeder is actually a sentiment i share. now, if the lefties applied the same scale of loathing to ayers as they now hold for roeder, they would understand the seriousness of having bill ayers, an unrepentent bill ayers, as a close friend.

roeder gets off on a technicality? by the 'bill ayers is ok' logic, his future association or friendship is beyond reproach, right?

[Dan Riehl]

"you deliberately squelched the quote"

You really are a moron. Nothing prevents you from posting a limited quote and providing a single link. People can do what they want. But all but repurposing an entire post is unacceptable. Get it, dunce?

[mark l.]

if it makes you feel better lama, i've been clipped as well.

dan's house, dan's rules.

[North Dallas Thirty]

"But your side already did that with Bill Ayers, and Riehl himself called Ayers a "terrorist" even though I don't believe Ayers himself ever killed anyone."

Which is why Ayers's famous quote is, "Guilty as sin, free as a bird".

If the right followed the same rules as your party, Bob, Tiller's killer would not only be free, but a professor of education who was allowed to teach public school children his ideology at government expense with the full support and endorsement of the President of the United States. Had he killed four police officers, your fellow leftists would be demonstrating and cheering. If he got put on death row, you would be holding "Free Roeder" rallies, just like you do with Mumia.

But, as it turns out, Tiller's killer is in jail right now, with statement after statement coming in from Republicans, conservatives, and pro-life groups denouncing his behavior and calling for justice.

[Bob]

But Ayers never killed anyone, North Dallas. Or if anyone claims that he did, he's innocent until proven guilty and so far no evidence has been presented with which to charge him for murder. But I'm not trying to defend or equivocate over Ayers. At the very least, he was a terrorist at one time.

But this time it's YOUR side that's equivocating over principles that you claimed were carved-in-stone when it concerned islamist terrorists or people like Ayers. I don't deny that Ayers was a terrorist. Do you deny that the guy who killed Tiller is a terrorist?

[lala]

Mumia. Has the execution been scheduled yet?

[mark l.]

"But Ayers never killed anyone,..."

"But I'm not trying to defend or equivocate over Ayers"

[lala]

Has the "alleged" killer of Tiller been found guilty yet?

[LOL]

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=22002

hmm yeah, wingnuts are idiots

[mark l.]

lol-
reasons for a late term abortion(wiki)

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

tiller was an absolute saint to provide such a procedure. I'm sure his focus was only on the 2% with fetal problems and he declined all other reasons.

did you know there are Iraqis who are glad we removed saddam? proboably not a large number, but better than 2%.

[mark l.]

"Is it better to have one doctor in the entire state perform a controversial medical procedure on women in desperate need of medical aid, or should we just be happy to see mother and child and doctor die because Jesus Jesus Jesus?"

the 2%? fine.

those same people screaming jesus, jesus, ...would be the first in line to adopt the ones who did not face fetal problems, or pose a threat to their mother's health. try getting an abortion in europe past 12 weeks, v. 24 weeks. maybe the europeans are a little more 'progressive' than we are.

[SacTownMan]

50 million murdered Americans since Roe vs Wade and still the trolls defend the practice like it's throwing out the trash!!

After all each time one of those 50 million were denied their "equal rights" there was the ACLU to defend them!

In the interest of choice did anyone ever ask the unborn child what they wanted?

Wanna guess what choice they would have made for themselves had they been given the chance... I didn't think so!! Yea let's see breathe in some air or have my brain crushed by some murdering doctor.

There's always room in heaven for those that would suck the head off of a 20 week old child!!

[North Dallas Thirty]

"Do you deny that the guy who killed Tiller is a terrorist?"

No. His intent was to intimidate through murder; he is a terrorist. I fully support his prosecution and, if guilty, his complete punishment, including the death penalty, under applicable anti-terrorism laws.

But of course, Bob and the Obama Party support terrorists not only being freed, but being given large salaries, tenured university positions, and government grants to teach their ideology to children. Indeed, Barack Obama publicly endorses and supports the terrorist Bill Ayers.

[tally]

But tally, according to right wingers like Riehl, moderates should "stand up more forcefully against their more radical and dangerous counterparts." It's not enough to merely not personally advocate assassination. I'm just asking you to unequivocally apply the same standards that your side professes when the perpetrators are coming from the right wing? Why the reluctance to call this act "terrorism" and denounce it plainly and forcefully?

Posted by: Bob | Monday, June 01, 2009 at 02:17 PM

=================================================================================================
Boob, you are giving me a headache. Your commander,Obama, said that individual acts of terror are now to be called man-caused disasters. Come on, get with the program or you will be carted off to the re-education camps pronto.

[LOL]

"did you know there are Iraqis who are glad we removed saddam? proboably not a large number, but better than 2%."

typical wingnut logic. When you can't win, just change the subject.

Tiller was one of the only men in the whole country to provide certain procedures, so yeah it's possible that he treated a high number of similar cases. He probably did more abortions to protect the health of the mother than doctors who only perform first trimester abortions. Now families afflicted by similar luck may have nowhere to turn to. It is a real tragedy.

[lala]

Remember when Pat Schroeder wouldn't let the partial birth abortion procedure display to be shown in Congress. She said it was too graphic. I guess seeing a baby's skull punctured by scissors and it's brain sucked out is a bit graphic.

[lala]

I don't know whether to believe this or not. Tiller had the mother hold the aborted baby and he took pictures! And baptized them?

Late Abortion Care for Fetal Anomaly

Remembrances and Special Requests

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CLdB

[cindi]

That's what it looks like lala. Tried tiller's site, of course it's down for now.

[Q]

When our founding fathers took up arms, were they "playing God?"

They took up arms against:
1} legitimate authority,
2} Parliament, which was legitimate and lawful,
3} as much a representative democracy that existed anywhere on the planet at the time,
4} their lawful King.

They took up arms and started killing people, started driving those that disagreed with them off their property, which they seized, commenced a terror campaign in the deep south, and did all of that as private citizens.

What are the obligations that devolve upon a man when he perceives the relationship between citizen and state has broken down, broken irretrievably down?

[tally]

Lala and Cindi, You have to get to Tiller's site through Google cached. I just looked, he did offer those services. You have to remember that we have no idea what these women were going through. Most of these late term women were losing their babies from fetal illness, etc.. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, I'm just posting so you can look for yourselves.

[nina]

Good bye to Tiller. The babies won't miss him.

[Nishner]

Can't pass a bill? Can't win in the courts? Then Kill 'em all!

I'm betting most of those that won't condemn Tiller's assassin are the first to call themselves Christians and great patriotic defenders of the Constitution.

You're not.

[Q]

All of the hosannas from the establishment won't help him now.

All of the sympathy from a servile media won't help him now.

The fact that he was just conforming to political correctness and running with the herd won't serve as a "treasure" that he "stored in heaven."

What a fool!

What a tremendous fool, to have wagered so much, to have bet the eternal farm, and for what? For what?

What a f***ing idiot!

So much for education, so much for the value of degrees and advanced degrees, so much for the Enlightenment.

[templar knight]

Hm..an interesting discussion. This man Tiller was a bad man, a good man, perhaps a confused man. He embodies abortion, especially the late term variety, yet he has helped people, has done good, and bad. His life and death mirror the abortion issue itself, so filled with hate, and love, and everything in between.

This I find to be the closest thing we have in this country to Greek and English tragedy. I wish to God I had the answer.

[Ashley]

According to Nishner, everytime someone gets shot and killed, it is domestic terrorism. Or does that just apply to when liberals get shot? Tiller is no different than the man who was shot by someone robbing a bank or a woman shot in a drive-by. That is not domestic terrorism. Domestic terrorism is from the likes of Timothy McVeigh. Know the difference. Don't put the lives of those families lost in vain by putting them in the same category.
Tiller himself was a murderer, no doubt in my mind. Babies who do survive botched abortions should not be allowed to lay there and suffer nor does that doctor have the right to take that baby's life in whatever manner they do so. No right whatsoever. He was the terrorist! How many people did Tiller kill opposed to how many the person who shot him killed? Can you answer that question?

[Ashley]

To: North Dallas Thirty

Ayers was responsible for the death of three people: Diana Oughton, and Weatherman members Terry Robbins and Ted Gold. When they were making a bomb together it went off and those three were killed. A bomb that Ayers was involved with, so yes-he was and still is a domestic terrorist! Not only that, his group was responsible for at least one death of a police officer!

Don't even try to put Ayers and Tiller's killer in the same boat. No coincidences there.