I Wouldn't Want To Be Israel Right Now

There are enough disturbing quotes to be found between RBO and The Daily Beast to make this worth pointing out. I'm less confident about condemning the business links to the bin Laden family as it's a murky subject and I'm not sure who knows the correct story.

The Obama administration’s reported pick for a top intelligence post has financial ties to the infamous bin Laden family - including dealings after September 11, 2001, Aaron Klein, Jerusalem bureau chief for World Net Daily, reports from Israel.

Still, some of the guy's quotes and alleged activities would be enough to cause me concern were I in the Israeli government these days. At a minimum it's appeasement 101.

Charles W. “Chas” Freeman Jr. (left), the U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, is slated to head the National Intelligence Council, according to multiple reports.

He told the Washington Institute of Foreign Affairs in 2007 that Israeli policy is generating anti-American sentiment while the Jewish state “no longer even pretends to seek peace with the Palestinians; it strives instead to pacify them.”

“American identification with Israeli policy has also become total. Those in the region and beyond it who detest Israeli behavior, which is to say almost everyone, now naturally extend their loathing to Americans,” he claimed.

Freeman lauded Hamas as “is the only democratically-elected government in the Arab world and claimed the terrorist group “is showing that if we offer it nothing but unreasoning hostility and condemnation, it will only stiffen its position and seek allies among our enemies. In both cases, we forfeit our influence for no gain.”

And if the rest of the reports are accurate this isn't good at all. I''ll repeat the links: sourced here and here.

His Council joined with California-based Arab World and Islamic Resources in selling to U.S. schools the “Arab World Studies Notebook.” The JTA found the “Notebook” described Jerusalem as unequivocally “Arab,” characterized Jewish residence in the holy city as “settlement”; labeled the “question of Jewish lobbying” against “the whole question of defining American interests and concerns”; and suggested the Koran “synthesizes and perfects earlier revelations.”

“Freeman is a strident critic of Israel, and a textbook case of the old-line Arabism that afflicted American diplomacy at the time the state of Israel was born,” Steve Rosen, a former top official of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, wrote on his “Obama Mideast Monitor” blog hosted by the Middle East Forum. [See Rosen here and here.]

Comments

[Lummysdad]

"You sick war mongers who excuse Israeli disproportionate and criminally-savage phosphorus-bomb bludgeoning of Gazan women and children are part of the problem"

The Jews are out-numbered 100 to 1 by Muslims. The response has to be disproportionate or Israel would face annihilation. The Arabs know an Israeli life is worth much more than their own and are willing to sacrifice 10 to 1 and call it a victory. Look at the prisoner exchanges! The Palestinians expect back 1000 prisoners for each Israeli soldier returned....even if the soldier is dead!

[Sean]

While I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist, I am also a strong supporter of basic human rights. I don't know what the answers are, but I do know this: neither side can claim to be lily white, neither side holds a moral high ground right now. I understand that Israel has a lot to lose by backing down and offering a hand in friendship. Maybe that hand will get burned. But, if Israel wants that moral high ground, they have to really BE the good guys. Being the good guy is hard, it's much harder than most people think. But, really, taking that high ground, doing the hard things, that's really Israel's only hope. I know that a land populated by people strong enough to survive Polish and Russian pogroms, the Inquisition, and Hitler's gang of thugs, has the inner strength to overcome anything...even if it means turning the other cheek a little bit.

[Harlan Hoffman]

Energy Independence for the USA, ending arms exports, ending foreign aid...allow the Israelis and the Arabs to work out their own shit...equals economic security for us in the U.S. And after the Israelis demolish the Arabs; equals Peace on Earth.

hgh

[moresanethanmost]

Hi, This is my first time viewing this blogsite. I accessed it through yahoo news. This appears at first glance to be a representaion of a well-balanced readership. ALL 3 sides included. The Muslum crazies, the Jew crazies, and the middle of the road crazies. I am included in the middle of the road crazies...lol... Because of my own convictions, I have to side with Mikodemundo, cc, williamtrent and others, who state the obvious, BOTH sides are to blame, and until a majority of people take the middle ground and work toward solutions, there will be none. I laughed as I read the post about being a child and just saying nuke them ALL...( in my youth I said the very same ), although NOW i realize that if one was to do so that THEY would become the agressor. Forced peace CAN work but at what cost??? Religion and Nationalism are the two biggest obstacles that civillized man has to overcome, and believe it OR not, there are MANY who take this stance. My hopes are that in time, through education, indoctrination, propaganda, (whatever you wish to call it), lol, the middle ground that I propose as being correct WILL be implemented. BOTH sides are wrong, but MY side isn't...lol... :-) I wish I had a comprehensive solution, but I HAVE to say that a REAL solution has to start from the middle, from someone who is neither a muslum nor a jew.

[michael corleone]

JB, that is a very silly comment to say why don't saudi arabia or egypt give land to the palestinians. They do not want any other land. They want what belongs to them, which is rightfully theirs. To have their homes stolen from them and tell them to just move on is silly. Would you accept to be thrown from your home and forced to go somewhere where you do not want to ?

[John R.]

I just love and laugh at people who cry about Israel having an unfair advantage. They whine that the kill ratio is lopsided and the Palestinians are outgunned and outmatched. Are you JOKING???
The question or query should be as to why the Palestinians continue to attack a far superior force. Are they mentally ill?
Collectively, yes they are.
In any war, it is folly to match skills or firepower. You want an extreme advantage if possible. The only object of war is to win.(Not to nation-build after either. eg; Iraq)
Regardless of the fact that the arguement is over land ownership, the Palestinians fail miserably to show they can peacefully exist with anyone as neighbors. Syria doesn't want them nor does any other Arab nation. These Palestinians are the flea's on the dogs ass of humanity.
Unfortunately, there are only 2 viable solutions.
1.) An all-out war which wipes the Palestinians off the face of the Earth or
2.) Get the Jewish State and all it's people to move out of the region.

I say, give the Israelis a strip of land between Mexico and the Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Califonia border. Have the Arab nations fund the entire move. In twenty years they'll have a secure homeland and a burgeoning nation. Two major problems solved at once.
1. No more excuse for Arab vs. Jew hatred and war.
2. And the Israelis are top-notch at border security. There won't be anymore criminals walking across our borders from Mexico to pillage and rape our land or children.
Of course, either one is about as possible as Barak Obama being fiscally responsible.

[Afterimage]

In my humble opinion the problems in Israel and the surrounding territory have nothing to do with Jews, Muslims, Christians, or any other religion. The "Religious" aspect is just a smoke screen. When you take away any countries ability to defend itself, through invasion, embargo, or blockade, and them call them terrorists for fighting with the only resources they have left, you cross the line between democracy and facism. I have to say with a heavy and sad heart that I no longer support the Government of Israel, its people have and always will have my support of their right to live there, but, I fear if the Israeli government fails to lead its people to a peaceful resolution of the current crisis, they may be abandoned by the rest of the world and left to fend for themselves. The disproportinate use of force is completely inexcusable and will in no way deter the Palestinians, as has been proven time and time again, it only serves to weaken Israel in it's standing with the rest of the world.

[antisemiticconspiritors]

It seems to me that the 3 billion living people and over 2000 years of dead poeoples, with an obsessive-compulsive-ownership pathological disorder for the tiny jews (both loving and hating equally disturbing), owe them quite a bit more than israel, but the jews will absolutely forget about it as they have no choice bullies win in this case. But at least let them be, (Justice can not and anti-christ bo cant change that). Whereas, the palestinians are relatives of the Arab side of a middle ages crusuade and far from indiginous. The tiny Jews still had remnants of philistine culture in europe (eg words like ba'al habos) Islam has no canaanite connection whatsoever, except treating the tiny jews like second class citizens, and deciding they lied about isa'ac and ja'akob. the 8 canaanite tribal conspiricies, assyrians, babylonians, persians, greeks, romans, catholics, moslems, turks, british twice, were all there for the tiny Jews and no other reason and killed them randomly, now you name your kids after them.

[Coto]

Nuke em' all!!! We need parking!

[Bantakain]

I dont hate jews or arabs, I hate uneducated morons who listen to CNN and base their opinions on a biased system. Usually old fat white honkies. Wake up the earth is dying, wall street greed is good people have raped us, as have the oil companies. I cant afford to go anywhere or buy anything. Mr. obama shall rescue the bush disaster! Store 7 years worth of supplies, the BIG one is coming!!!! 2/3 of man shall perish, man shall become a man eater. god is giving us signs everyday open your eyes, save your beautiful chidren!

[ninjama aisha is an idiot]

In all Cultures,Religions,Races, and Peoples there is always good people and bad people. You can not paint the whole canvas with one brush and colour.

Jews are very good family oriented people, the same can be said about the Arabs. The problem, sets in when ideologies enter the picture. Fanatical Muslims give people the impression that all Muslims are American flag burning, hatefule and violent people. Islam does not teach nor embrace any of this.

Zionism gives people the impression that all Jews are Land Hungry,Greedy,unjust aggressors. This is far from the turth as well.

Do people view all Italians in the same light as those involved in the extortionist Italian Mafia?

If so these are the same stupid people who believe main stream ,propagande media. The same people who believe that the pcitures of the men that were shown on tv were the actual people who flew the two alleged passenger planes into the Twin Towers.

The world must depose not of the Arabs nor the Jews but of those evil bastards who appopint themselves as the supposed representatives and supposed voice of the people.

Most Jews and Palistinians are of the same bloodline and have co existed for many years. The problem started when zionism was formed.

Why are so many Rabbis against Zionism???

[Rainman]

"There is not a single religion that encourages or allows for violence"

wow. you should re-read Leviticus.

[ReligonistheCauseofWar]

Abu- I can promise you that Israel will be around for many years to come. The pathetic militaries of the arab world do not stand a chance against Israel and their allies. The US will step in and wipe you off the planet before they allow that outcome for Israel. If anything, the primitive nations of the Arab world will be the ones ceasing to exist because they can't keep up with the rest of the world. Its really a b*tch when you fall so far behind in evolution, isn't it?

[Blane]

One thing that i dont understand is why this has been a problem for arabs to accepte that Isreal has the right to live in this world like any oter nations of the world and we . And it is impossible to distroy Isreal .Halleluya

[fm]

hello to everyone, very interesting conversation, believers or non believers, muslims jews or christian or even hindus, what is wrong with everyone... why is everyone ready to kill all the time, and listen to yourself, some of u want living communities turned into parking lots, and some are talking bout nuking.. r u human beings or what.. is it that simple to take a human life.. i don believe you are actually praising some one like hitler for what he did or should have done.. what is the difference between you and him... why cant everyone just be human being, no christian, muslim jew or hindu or what ever religion.. just be a human being.. instead of talking bloody murder why not pledge that just one day.. just one day no one will be killed by any one.. cant we all just pledge for one day.. and see how that turns out.. just one day... !

[Kabir]

What if moslems didnt saved the jews from crusades what if they were not rescued by the moslems of albania.why do moslems always have to make these stupidities and jews always has to be on with sympathies and why does muslims always had a problem with a jew not with any one else in the world.why moslem has to be called extremist and not those who would had killed the pope for denying the truth.why moslems dont lie on media making fun of others holy books interpreting unauthentic and misleading and literatures pretending to be theirs like they do.i guess this happens because you need someone to hate them for something you dont have.

[Omar]

This is SOOOOOO interesting!

Now Israel can feel the same way the entire Arab world has felt for the past 60+ years...

And what is wrong with Freeman's statement that was quoted? What part of it is innaccurate, incorrect, or mosleading? I am speaking of this quote: Freeman lauded Hamas as “is the only democratically-elected government in the Arab world (which they are) and claimed the terrorist group “is showing that if we offer it nothing but unreasoning hostility and condemnation, it will only stiffen its position (and they have) and seek allies among our enemies(and they will). In both cases, we forfeit our influence for no gain. (And you have done that many times...”

[Phoebe]

Tite: We all have a right to insult Muslims and the Prophet Mohammed. We also have a right to insult Jews and their make-believe God. And to insult Christians and their bullshit Jesus story.

In fact, to echo a couple of the posts here, you religious whacks are ALL the problem and the sooner you realize that using your childish superstitions to justify your acts of evil, repression and control the better.

Worse offenders are those who move to the UK, US etc. and want their "religious rights". Time all funding was pulled from Israel, we weaned ourselves off middle-eastern oil, and the borders are closed to your superstitions so you whacks are left in the sand to wipe each other out and do the world a favor.

[Carrie]

The comments by the Arab hate-mongers on this post exemplifies the fact that we need to get rid of these people, and quickly. Do you think they'll be satisfied if they destroy the Jews (which will NEVER happen, by the way)? They would next go after any American who doesn't qualify as a "useful idiot". Apparently, there are plenty of useful idiots in this country, however.

The ignorance displayed on this board is astounding. To the Arabs: Shut up and go back to your dustbowl. To the Americans who support the Arabs: You can go with them. You don't deserve to be here!

[Pete Lazonby]

THERE IS NO GOD

you are all free to stop hating now

[Pete Lazonby]

Alternatively read a Singer or Mahfouz novel and realise it's human beings you want to destroy and they are just trying to lead a good life like you.

[Carrie]

I have news for you people who think all violence is brought about by religion. The Muslims kill people of their own religion all the time. American gangs weren't started because of religious differences. Men who kill their girlfriends for breaking up with them don't do it because God told them to. Let's use our brains a little, shall we?

[Don]

The Jewis people are a very noble people and not to mention "they are GODS chosen people", who only want peace with thier neibors, but the hamas(muslim community)are bent on robbing them of their land. The Hebrews owned that land a couple of thousand years before there was even a muslim faith. Anyone that says different is a complete morron and needs to get an education in history. If anyone hurt a member of my family, I would spare no expense to rid the world of them. Don't blame the jewish community for defending themselves. What would you do if the muslim world or any group or country was trying to kill all of your family or country? Remember one more thing, without the jews the world woudn't have the christian faith, not to mention our sense of morality that the USA and other countries bases its laws on. Whithout these laws that were given to us by our Great Heavanly Father where would we be? People please, before you try to judge other cultures try judging yourselves first, then at least know what the F***k you are talking about before you open youself up to looking stupid. The Jews belong in israel yesterday today and forever. If I could I would gladly go and fight along side of them to protect thier land, people and preserve their culture. The Jews have been thru more disasters, oppressions and even attempted genocide thru out history and prevailed, even prospered. We should all wish and pray that none of those things happen to us or anyone else. If we had one ounce their faith, courage and morality this would be a better world. Speaking of land stealing, we(and by that I mean the Great USA) raped pillaged murdered millions and dislocated milions more indians so we could "settle" or "steal" land for ourselves. Should we realy be proud or ashamed to be called an "american"? Or should we be punished for war crimes? Or should we give the land back? Who will decide, huh? I think that anit semitism should be outlawed and (enforced).No matter how you look at it,it's a hate crime. Even anti muslim or any kind of hatred to a people. Well anyhow, the palastinians have no right or claim on israeli land, which by the way they(israel)have claim to much much more land surounding their country. So I think the muslim world shoud be thankfull that they don't take all their rightfull land back. So in short, you skinheads or wanna be skinheads of the usa and abroad should get a real job,stop blogging and be a productive member or society and quit hating a culture that you don't know or even pretened to understand. It shows your true IQ 2.

[Phoebe]

Don - so what if "jews" were there 2000 years ago? Does that mean England should be run by Italians today? "Gods Chosen" You religious freak. Why don't you commit suicide, meet your "God" and do us all a favor. And that goes for you whacked-out Muslim freaks, too.

And to Carrie; religion does not cause violence, you are right. But it gives plenty of excuses for humans to indulge in the most basic of animal instincts. For we are, indeed, evolved from apes and haven't got too much further.

Would you suggest Americans who support Israel go back to the dustbowl too? I would.

[owencrump]

Organized religion is and always has been the single greatest cause of strife on the planet. Supernatural entities were created by primitive man to explain occurrences he could not. We as individuals need to realize that our relationship with the cosmos is intensely personal. Religious beliefs that require joining together with others in worship of some deity are fictions, the creations of men looking for explanation and solace. Once we recognize this and ignore man's inventions, the "prophets" and "saviors", then Earth will be a better place. On that final day each of us will stand alone, unique before eternity and all that it holds. No fellow humans will stand beside us at that moment be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Whoever. We will be solitary before the universe, each of us solely responsible for how we spent our time, how we treated others, and if the world was a better place for our having been part of it. Peace.

[barnyard]

Disproportianate respsose?! You heard this on CNN and ran with it! Incredible how foolish and designer this attempt to capitulate to muslims. Hamas has the certain option to fight in the fields, valleys, and mounatins away from the populace. Hamas has chosen to instead remain masked and hidden amongst the populace. Isreal would prefer the former but has rightly committed to the latter. Hamas are the cowards. Terrosists are cowards. I personally enjoy hunting them like swine. You think the people of Gaza bare no blame for supporting Hamas either passively or actively? When enough 'innocent civilians' perish, those fit for survival will realize that the way to end all of this is to simply cease attacking Israel. This is not rocket-science, pun intended.

[cristina]

here a video of ur holy book talmud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSwYC_n6dM8

and here for cristian who worship them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma471mrh3ts

[Rob]

We spend entirely too much money and effort trying to support Israel and the country's criminal behavior just to apease the "Financial Supporters" who ensure the election of ALL of our country's politicians. We have NO BUSINESS supporting a country that pursues terrorist and extremist actions against thier neighbors. I'm delighted that America's uninformed majority are now beginning to see what has been happening with our support for Israel and how much it has cost the USA over the years. Israel needs to stand on it's own. If it can't, then maybe we should institute a form of American control and oversight of it's government and military in exchange for the financial support it's been getting. Just like the auto industry.

[Carrie]

To Kabir:

Christians and Jews (with a few historical exceptions) have a live and let live policy. They don't behead people of opposing beliefs, and they don't force conversions on threat of death. You could live in this so-called Christian nation of America without fear. Is that so in Muslim countries? Could I move to Iraq, or Syria and live peacfully as a Christian or Jew? I don't think so.

Everyone here should read a book written by Walid Shoebat, a former terrorist turned Christian, entitled "God's War on Terror." Because he is no longer a Muslim, he has accepted the fact that he is a marked man. His experiences highlight the challenge we will all face with Islam in the not too distant future.

[Emmanuel Awolusi]

I believe President Obama has the capacity to find the eluded peace in the Middle East. But because Middle East is a difficult subject politically in the US, he would not try it in the first term. The capability draws from the fact that he's able to be blind to the religious sentiments surrounding the settlements as he was blind to the issue of race. Only few contributions are neutral. There are UN resolutions aimed at installing peace in the Middle East. They were not enforced because no US administration was willing to call Israel to implement them. But even then they form a good framework upon which Israel could seek peace. Israel is always bitter wherever it is suggested that she should seek peace. There are so many reasons why Israel is the one to assiduously seek peace. It is christianly to do so and US her main backer is governance by Christian principles though Israel does not believe in Christ. Secondly, they won all battles without being able to wipe out these people like the Jews did to Canaanites on there way back from Egypt. Thirdly they have more to benefit from peaceful coexistent: 'He that is down needing fear no fall' is the case of most of their neighbours. Finally it is the wish of God that Israel technological potential should complement the Arab wealth for the benefit of all nations and mankind. Can you imagine Israel conducting oil deals on behalf of her Saudis cousins or helping set up nuclear plant in Iran, a business routinely given to Russia or North Korea? Me think American educated leaders like Netanyahu should think of the economy of Israel within the context of over 150million Arab market and seek peaceful coexistent and cooperation. Yet, like the leaders of third world countries, they prefer war mongering and peddling American influence at the expense of the greatness of their nation. What is the way forward? Hamas is a short term reward for not having a settlement with the moderate Abass. It is instructive to the extent that political leaders would have to deliver some results to their constituency. It is also instructive that despite the Israel sledge hammer attack on the strip the missiles are not silenced. Symbolically, the missiles are, as rudimentary as they are, similar to the stones and sling with which David conquered Goliath. Who says Hamas may not be learning how to fit them with guide electronics? While Hamas has taught some lessons, it should be considered as a minor irritant to be ignored while Israel opens the border. However, Gaza, West Bank and Israel should form a confederation whose constitution can give independence to whoever wants to evolve as a state after 5 years. The world has to teach these people to live in peaceful coexistence and the task is for US and Saudi Arabia to execute with the support of the UN. President Obama can deliver on this within the next eight years.

[Carrie]

Phoebe, I would love to go to Israel. Apparently you haven't been there, because since the Jews returned it isn't a dustbowl anymore. They actually take care of the land.

Unlike fundamentalist Muslims, Christians and Jews love life. However, it is natural to get offended when someone tells you you don't deserve to live--as the Muslims have said to Israel.

If I said to you that my life goal was to kill you and everyone you're related to, wouldn't you be a little upset? Conversely, Israel provides jobs and "welfare" for Muslims who have agreed to live peacefully among them, and even provide humanitarian aide for those who don't.

[Tanker28]

We are going to need those scrap'n lil Jews to have OUR back when WWIII goes down. (history says it is inevitable) I guaranty Russia, Iran, N Korea and China will all be on the opposite side of the table. Next to us, Israel has the best military technology there is. As far as the religious end of it, their all full of Sh*t..including your fairy tale god 'ninja'

[Carrie]

Owencrump: You confused me a little. You say there is no God, and yet you claim we will all be responsible for our own deeds in the end. You speak of eternity. Who are we responsible to? How is there an eternity?

You are quite wrong in stating religion is bad for society. Perhaps we would not have so many serial killers if they stopped to think they would be held accountable to God, not some mysterious spiritual entity as you elude to. However, some religions are (forgive me, but I don't believe in political correctness) superior to others. Judaism and Christianity set up the backbone for civilized society. Without a moral guide, and an ultimate payment for transgression, culture degenerates into chaos. I think we've already seen this occur on a small scale thanks to people such as yourself.

[SoCal White Male age 39 not a jew]

If Canada lobbed rockets into the USA I would flatten them.
The Arab world hates Israeli and always will....no matter what. Therefore it is in Israeli’s very best interest to remain as aggressive about their defense as possible. There is no value and tons of risk for Israel to soften their positions.
I would advocate them making a preemptive strike on Iran’s nuke facility. Yeah I know "Jihad" will result which has been called on for so many times with pathetic response the word no longer has meaning. I am calling for JiHad on the next person to call for JiHad.
Palestine is a group of poor 3rd world people who based their existence on conflict with Israel. They won't allow peace because their cause is the only thing to give them relevance in the world.
If you are religious you know peace is impossible in that region anyway. I say let them fight and last man standing gets the land. Of course that will be Israel.

[Carrie]

Well said SoCal White Male!!!

[Tuba Mirum]

This computer belonged to my mixed up friend, a Lebonese American jihadi sympathiser. He even wrote a book on his hatred of Israel and paranoia about jews but could not find a buyer for it. You know how it goes. Write a book about hating jews and the jews that control the world wont buy it. He went on his martyrdom mission to kill his mother and himself but thanks be to whatever name of G'd you prefer, a policeman saved his mothers life and he had no one left to kill but himself. I lost a friend to this madness that lay beneath anti-semitism but aquired his computer as a comfort. Now his computer sits under the intertwined flag of Israel and America. I use it to counter jihadi propagada.I'm not a jew as far as I know but take great delight at the raging raving comments directed to me calling me at best a dirty jew and at worst what you have all heard before.
Religion is insanity. The evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt. State religion is insanity made a lawful public compulsion ( and Israels secret weakness)If the arab nations of the middle east separate state from religion after the example of the American Constitution they will transcend by justice and charity Israels handicap but the love of violence and islamic fanaticism is an even greater handicap to those miserable muslim people.Israels strength is its justice in relation to its corruption bound neighbors. Imperfect yes, but smelling like a rose in a sewer.
In that day that muslim arab states are free of government corruption and state mandated islamic religion, those people will look on Israel with pity , love, and charity, And they will do much for the common good of all through business and industry. In that day there will be such love between arab muslim and jew that the hatred we see today will be sent straight to where it belongs. To the insane asylum.No one wants to lose a friend to self inflicted insanity.Please lay my words to heart as they come from real sad life experience.God is love and religion is the devil.

[owencrump]

Carrie: I believe in a collective spiritual force, not unlike the "Force be with you" in StarWars. I don't believe in an omnipotent being. We will be judged by those who went before us. As far as your inference that I and people like me may be the cause of society's ultimate breakdown, then I thank you as society is clearly not working properly and I am happy to do my part. Obviously the financial events of recent months are testimony to this fact. (By the way, it's allude, not elude.)

[Carrie]

Thank you for correcting my misspelling, owencrump. The financial events you reference certainly testify to the breakdown of moral values. Those values can be found in the Bible, if you care to search for them.

As for your Star Wars force, I hope the parasites in your blood--after all, that was what the force was according to the movie--lead you in the right direction. As for me, I'll stick to the idea of a creator. It makes much more sense to me.

[DavidAK]

I'm just astounded by 1) the vicious anti-semitism expressed by so many contributors here, and 2) the lack of knowledge of Jewish history and middle eastern history in general. Seems like many are expressing opinions taken from blatant propaganda or nasty childhood prejudices. Too bad.

[Don]

Phoebe, thats very cowardly of you to say those things in cyberspace where as its some what safe. I would love to meet you and discuss your attitude. Maybe we can talk about that suicide issue you have. I think I hit a nerve with you. Are you the wanna be skinhead? Wait, you must be the fat bastard that sits in front of the computer all nite blogging and jerking off to porn, or are you the skinny geek that does the same? It's gutter trash like you that draggs society to the toilet. Bravo looser

[Phoebe]

Carrie: If you choose to believe that hand-be-down bunch of tribal tales known as the Bible for your moral guidance, then you obviously have no greater awareness of yourself as a human being. What is your evidence for a breakdown of moral values? They come from the same mythical time as the white picket-fence and the smell of Mom's apple pie drifting through an open window.

Don: Same goes for your post, though you seem to be jerking off over the Talmud or some such, don't get jizz in your ringlets. You and your fellow God freaks, from all sides, are consipiring for the ruination of the planet - and if you really believe there is an afterlife which you want to shepard your fellow humans into, take yourself there and leave the rest of us to this wonderful, amazing planet.

[Tanker28]

Hey Carrie...^"You are quite wrong in stating religion is bad for society. Perhaps we would not have so many serial killers if they stopped to think they would be held accountable to God, not some mysterious spiritual entity as you elude to. However, some religions are (forgive me, but I don't believe in political correctness) superior to others. Judaism and Christianity set up the backbone for civilized society. Without a moral guide, and an ultimate payment for transgression, culture degenerates into chaos. I think we've already seen this occur on a small scale thanks to people such as yourself."

First, about the only good thing I got to say about religion is most of them, overall carry a good moral guide. Guess what, I am not religious and I also have good morals. Each man is capable of making his own decisions to be a good person or not. That does not mandate believing there is a god watching and waiting to judge you after you die. I firmly believe that religion as a whole is primitive. All the men the last several millenia who wrote about gods, prophets and macias had nothing else to go by to explain life in general...i.e. the sun, stars, lunar/solar eclipse, the creation of life and death. The list is endless.

You want to talk about serial killers....that is very small scale. There will always be people who threw some sort of mental disorder or trauma, will think it is ok or the right thing todo to kill his family or go on a streak of a half dozen or so murders.

Religion completely trumps the small time lunatics as far as being a potential end to mankind threw war. Trying to spread there believes or strike down the ones who dont share the same.

The most insane, violent, completely off the wall people in history where extremely religious.

My bottom line on religion is that I dont care what you believe in. If it makes you happy and whole, more power to ya. Just keep it in your church or basement and stop allowing it to hold society back. We need to evolve. The morning after pill, stem cell research, all these things that could help save lives, improve society are all squashed by the bible thumping politicians who say "we cant do that, its playing god. Let god chose let god have his will"

There, said...chew on it

[owencrump]

Carrie: Well! You got me on the parasite thing, I didn't know that because I didn't really like the movies much or watch them all. Touché!

However, about those moral values. Suppose way back when before the Bible was written, a primitive man and his woman were hanging around their campfire discussing the events of the day when some unknown stranger came into their camp and beat them and made off with their food. Would they be confused about what happened and unable to express themselves because they hadn't read the Bible? Or would they be really upset at what had happened because the hooligan had violated their natural right to live and let live and hang out without somebody bothering them? Morals are merely enumerated in the Bible from the collective experience of man, they certainly weren't delivered by Jesus or Moses or any other creation so all the world could see. By the way, the Bible would be a heck of a lot more believable if there were actual specimens of Jesus's writings. You would think that if an individual was all that he is alleged to have been that some of his writings would be preserved in his own hand.

[owencrump]

“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.” - Denis Diderot

[Phoebe]

Carrie: You may enjoy this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8

[Don]

Hey phoebe, I'm only jerking off in your mothers mouth. You and your kind needs to be wiped off the planet. You are a realy stupid and cowarly little boy or girl(sorry,realy I am. Pheobe, what kind of mane is that?)that needs a very special diciplinary session. To all the good people out there I apoligize for my choice of words. I just realy hate scum like pheobe thats spews out crap that he or she does.

[Phoebe]

Wow, Don... so you can spout your crap, but I should be wiped off the planet for mine? See.. typical religious mindset.

[Don]

pheobe Listen, you come out your mouth about commiting suicide because of my beliefs(which you dont know what they are)and I happen to have alot more understanding for the history of israel than you do apparently. The fact is, your vastly outragious comment pissed me off and I would like to have a decent conversation with adults and not a child or child like asshole that needs that gutter mouth wired shut. Believe me when I tell you this, you are so damm lucky that you are not around me and you say that. With that being said,I will again apoligize to the good people here and leave you pheobe in the gutter amongst your filth. Maybe you should take your own advice and commit suicide.

[Phoebe]

Don: Wow! I think your Zyprexa is wearing off. Your initial post was childish in the blind belief that because someone once dwelled in a certain geographic area, they have a right to it in-perpetuity. And your rationale was that the jews are "Gods chosen people". From this starting point, a rational & adult conversation is not possible as you've chosen to reject logic.

And you're right - you do know more about Israeli history than I. However, if you know anything about history at all you'll know that empires rise and fall, land changes hand, demographics change. To say that Israel's existance as the land of "Gods chosen people" is immutable is to deny the history of everywhere else on the planet.

Are you waiting for Jesus to come back, so you can go up to heaven in the rapture? If so, you'll be waiting a long time. After all, I saw Jesus yesterday - he was mowing my yard. And Mohammed filled my gas tank (physically and metaphorically).

[seekeronos]

Religion serves as a check on society's baser impulses to do evil: without a notion of an Immortal Judge, or even a fear of Karma or some other Heavenly Retribution for doing evil... we would quickly revert to those sorts of lovely utopian society that atheists have wrought the worst harm agaisnt humankind: namely, the purges of Stalin (upwards of 10MM people in the Holodomor, and as many as 30MM in Mao's Cultural Revolution)

And Hitler was no Christian: he was nominally a Catholic, and a most ardent follower of neo-pagan ideas such as those embraced by the Thule Society and other post-Christian "Higher Criticism" groups, along with no small influence from the likes of "God is dead" Nietzsche and like-minded idiots.

The numbers of people killed "in the name of Jesus" - the vast majority of them through the agency of the Roman See - pale in comparison by those butchered by Atheism and Islam.