Welcome To Amerika

The Examiner has an editorial up suggesting changes for Detroit if any additional bailout is to go through.

Some of the details on America's car industry will infuriate you. And knowing it's going to happen will likely just trouble you more.

We let the Steel industry go. But with Democrats in control and Big Labor exerting its influence, is there really any doubt?

What that leaves is an auto industry funded by taxpayers to sustain the UAW's proletariat and a government that will start telling car makers precisely what cars they can and cannot build. That also means the government will be telling you precisely what kind of car you can buy.

And next comes health care no doubt.

Welcome to Amerika!

Buy guns ... while you can.

Comments

[dave]

The thing that is maddening is that nobody in the press, even Fox News, has identified this as a gigantic sop to the unions. It's one thing to pass 'card check', a positively Stalinist move to open the little guy up to intimidation and thuggery in order to grow Union dues and add power to Union leaders.... but this is a simple handover of taxpayer dollars to the Unions... yet another example of our money being sent to the people who most oppose us and most try to destroy our way of life.

I'd rather see my money be sent to ACORN than sent to General Motors.

And what's worse, if they do it their way, they'll simultaneously be --

pouring money down the hole of a bad business model (bad primarily because of union contracts), and

forcing the car companies to build cars people don't want, thereby making a bad model WORSE.

There will also be, I"m sure, compulsion to IMPROVE the UAW position, which will make things even WORSE for the car companies.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"forcing the car companies to build cars people don't want"

Apparently they already are.

[chris]

"yet another example of our money being sent to the people who most oppose us and most try to destroy our way of life"

Who's "us" and "our"? McCain voters?

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Humm chrissy, I'd ask you to explain why you think a bailout is ok....but I dont want to put you out of your element.

[Fred Beloit]

THE FUTILE QUESTION:

Henny Youngman: "Now you take my wife, please."
Wahoo: But Mr Youngman, what precisely do you mean by that statement, and could you please be somewhat specific in your answer?

[Philip McDaniel]

Let the companies that are involved proceed to bankruptcy. That will force a reorganization of their failed business models and a renegotiation of past union demands that have helped destabilized these businesses. In addition, the state of Michigan could step up to the plate and lighten up its predatory taxation that is driving these companies to ruin and driving them out of the state. That is probably too much to hope for. Instead, we will get a Democrat bailout just like the 700 billion dollar one they pushed through congress…, then turned around, and blamed the Republicans for going along with them!
For my part, if they manage to pull this off – with the help of the administration and Republican members of the House and Senate the only thing I can do is vote against everyone in Florida in my district who votes for this boondoggle. Beyond that, I’ll never buy another vehicle manufactured by one of these manufacturers.

[gimmeabreak]

That article isn't disclosing the whole truth. Workers in Asian automaker plants make close to what the union guys make and sometimes more.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

You can pick out whatever you want to complain about regarding the auto (and bank) bailout. There's some for everyone. But if you are going to complain about the unions, you ought to at least acknowledge the shmuck who made $17 million/yr for driving the company into the ground.

[JustOneMan]

Wow!!! Heres yer "hope and change"..........

Top fundraisers and other well-connected supporters will serve in an advisory capacity before the Democrat takes office on Jan. 20.

Five of the 12 members of Obama's transition advisory board raised at least $50,000 for his presidential campaign, and eight contributed the maximum individual donation of $4,600. Other transition team members include a partner in a lobbying firm and two executives of financial companies whose employees were among his biggest donors.

[Anon]

The correct answer is no bailout for Detroit. All parties involved...the leadership, the unions, the Democrats who protected them...are guilty.

When you run your company into the ground by poor management, you deserve to go bankrupt. Yes, people will lose jobs, but when companies go bankrupt people always lose their jobs. The only alternative is to prevent ALL bankruptices which would mean, in effect, that the government controls all aspects of the economy.

I mean, why didn't the dot.com companies get a bailout? All those people lost jobs and money and savings? Oh yeah, because their business models were unworkable and so eventually they collapsed and a lot of people were hurt. No differnce here.

[JustOneMan]

BLOG POSTERS UNITE.....lets band together and demand our fair share of the bail out!!!!

[jharp]

"And next comes health care no doubt."

A dishonest snipe at health care reform.

In case you weren't aware America has the most expensive health care system in the world. By 2 or 3 times in many cases. And 40 million go without coverage.

It sucks and Obama plans to do something about it. Just as he campaigned to do.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Keep hope alive harpie!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"BLOG POSTERS UNITE.....lets band together and demand our fair share of the bail out!!!!"

If aunt nancy and co will just forgive all my debt and cut gas in half I'll be happy.

[anon]

Let me predict that Obama's health care plan will do exactly nothing to reign in health care costs, in fact, it will make the already ridiculously overpriced health care we get even more expensive.

It sucks now and it will suck even more when Obama is finished with it.

[jharp]

anon,

Time will tell. I am on the record in favor of a single payer system. It is by far the least expensive and covers everyone.

Think medicare for all. And if you want more coverage but it from a private insurer.

It's what the rest of the world does at about half the cost of our system.

And no Obama, to my disappointment has not proposed this.

[anon]

I thought McCain's proposal was a lot more realistic and cost effective than Obama's. I'm not sure what you mean by Medicare for everyone, since Medicare is paid for by the government. I agree that there should be some kind of affordable baseline insurance for everyone and then individuals or employers could purchase additional insurance, the way they do in the UK.

The only way to "fix" U.S. healthcare would be a complete overhaul from top to bottom phased in over a 10 year period and that isn't going to happen, certainly not under President Obama....all we're going to see from Obama is the government spending more money for overpriced health care.

My doctor charges $365.00 for an office visit that consists of a chat and a blood pressure check. Why? Because he can, because for his patients, they're not paying, "insurance" is paying. Nothing in Obama's plan is going to change that, its only going to mean that tax dollars are going to be spent on totally overpiced health care.

[mark l.]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"


"A proclamation by the pigs who control the government in the novel Animal Farm, by George Orwell. The sentence is a comment on the hypocrisy of governments that proclaim the absolute equality of their citizens but give power and privileges to a small elite."

http://www.bartleby.com/59/6/allanimalsar.html

please little piggie(jharp)-

explain how 263k UNION jobs need a bailout of 95k per employee, for starters... (as independent economists have described gm's plight as remaining on the verge of bankruptcy)

while the govt has spent next to nothing on the 1.2 million jobs already lost this year.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/economy/jobs_october/index.htm?postversion=2008110708

How do you explain to anyone in a non-union job that the company they work for, doesn't need a bailout(95,000 dollars per worker!), but GM does?

apprently union jobs are more equal than non-union jobs. Our govt will protect 15 million union workers, and ignore 135 million non-union workers? apparently union jobs are more equal than non-union jobs.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

That's easy mark: Those 135 million don't "donate" millions to the DNC. The same reason actors and athelietes support higher taxes on "da eveeel rich", because 15 million for 6 months work,somehow, isnt income like your paycheck.

[mark l.]

wouldn't it be far more progressive to have a tax bracket for those making over a million?

let's tax entertainers making more than 5 million a year at 80%. See how popular obama becomes when ben affleck has to pay a higher tax rate than someone making 200k or more...

Can't wait to see a hollywood star or starlet pronounce that they will pay their 'fair share' and pay 50% of income in taxes. Kinda hypocritical to endorse a candidate that protects their bracket exposure and makes their rates equal to a doctor, providing an essential service.

but along the lines of all animals being equal, hollywood entertainers paying the same rate as doctors only confirms the 'equality'.

[jharp]

"explain how 263k UNION jobs need a bailout of 95k per employee, for starters.."

I don't recall supporting a bailout.

And your framing of the argument that it is 95K per employee is an idiotic way to evaluate the solution.

GM has 196 billion in debt. About 700K per employee.

[mark l.]

"I don't recall supporting a bailout."

but you support the guy who is advocating the bailout.

by your own numbers, if gm is 196 billion in debt, what good will 25 billion do for them?
you do understand why they are in debt, don't you?

you also understand that if they do go into bankruptcy, they can renegotiate the cuases of their debt. If the govt doesn't let them go bankrupt, then the same cash burn keeps running and they keep bleeding. We might as well cut gm a yearly check.

[jharp]

"And next comes health care no doubt."

Yes sirree. And none too soon.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2008/11/healthcarte_update.html

Jon Cohn provides a quickie look at the non-socialistic Baucus plan:

It look a lot like the plan Barack Obama touted on the campaign trail: Expanded Medicaid and S-CHIP for the poor; a pooling mechanism that allows individuals and the uninsured to buy coverage at group rates; a new public insurance plan, modeled vaguely on Medicare, that would be available to people buying coverage through the new pool; subsidies to offset the cost of insurance coupled with efforts to restrain the cost of medicine in the long term; and regulations that force insurers to sell to everybody, regardless of pre-existing condition.

But Baucus' plan will differ from Obama's in one intriguing, and important, way. According to the Wall Street Journal's Laura Meckler, it will include a requirement that all people obtain insurance. In other words, it will include an individual mandate. That was a major source of contention during the Democratic primaries. Obama opposed such a mandate, while Senator Hillary Clinton supported it. (As readers of this space know, I think Clinton was absolutely right about this.)

[jharp]

"but you support the guy who is advocating the bailout."

So I don't agree with him on everything? What's wrong with that? Is there any politician that you agree 100% with. And it is news to me that Obama supports the bailout. Though I am aware that McCain supported the first 700 billion baliout.

"by your own numbers, if gm is 196 billion in debt, what good will 25 billion do for them?

Don't know and neither do you.

you do understand why they are in debt, don't you?"

Yes.

"you also understand that if they do go into bankruptcy, they can renegotiate the cuases of their debt. If the govt doesn't let them go bankrupt, then the same cash burn keeps running and they keep bleeding. We might as well cut gm a yearly check."

Agreed. However the holders(mutual funds, banks, insurance companies) of the 196 billion in debt will suffer tremendously in a bankruptcy. Possible resulting in catastrophic consequences.

I'll admit I don't know the answers. It is a very difficult situation. Count me as neither pro nor anti bailout.

Our economy is in serious doo doo. Good thing we just pissed away $1 trillion on the Iraq goodwill mission.

With another trillion or two to follow to care for our veterans.

[tk]

"My doctor charges $365.00 for an office visit that consists of a chat and a blood pressure check".

I just had a doctor visit. He weighted me, took my blood pressure, checked my blood test reading, changed a prescription and give a month's free samples for the new one. Cost 70.00. But I live in that poor part of the country named Scottsdale, AZ. Change doctors or more.

Detroit is lost. They cannot afford the retirees pension and health plans. That is why they just built a new plant in Mexico.

As for the guy who wrote about medicare, please you know nothing about it. there is no one plan, I would try to explain but you socialist reason is not your forte.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"And it is news to me that Obama supports the bailout."

Really? maybe you should quit looking at every leftist screed you can find and watch the MSM because it's been all over the news that one of his agenda items on last weeks visit w/ GW was to push for support of this additional bailout..........An informed electorate is a dangerous thing.

[jharp]

"And it is news to me that Obama supports the bailout."

Really? maybe you should quit looking at every leftist screed you can find and watch the MSM because it's been all over the news that one of his agenda items on last weeks visit w/ GW was to push for support of this additional bailout..........An informed electorate is a dangerous thing.

Posted by: WAHOO WILLIE | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 03:09 PM

Yes, really. But now I see. And so friggin what?

McCain is a bailout supporter too. Or at least he was when vying for the Presidency. And I don't have to agree with my candidate on every issue.

And I am on the record as neither for or against the bailout. But. I do favor an auto bailout over a Wall Street bailout.

It's a real friggin mess we are in.

And Willie, you will not find many as well informed as myself.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Why do you favor bailing out the auto industry, who basically failed for the same reasons wall street did?

[templar knight]

"Buy guns..while you can."

Thank you for that advice. I've been doing just that these past 20 or so years. Bought 5 AKs last weekend, plan on buying several more this weekend if I can find any at a decent price. And don't forget to buy ammunition while you're at it. Obama is likely to attack ammunition before he does guns, although I would advise one to buy assault-type rifles as quickly as possible, both to avoid a probable ban and dodge higher prices. Oh, yeah, get plenty of magazines, and I don't mean Time. Lol.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Better idea to buy gold and learn to make something people will need....like food.

[jharp]

Why do you favor bailing out the auto industry, who basically failed for the same reasons wall street did?

Posted by: WAHOO WILLIE | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 04:16 PM

I really am not much in favor of either but since you asked because the auto industry actually provides some value added jobs and actually makes something.

Wall Street is smoke and mirrors with other peoples money. Always have thought of them as a bunch of crooks. Tell me how you can explain sending someone your money and they send you a bill. Unbelievable to me!

[jharp]

Better idea to buy gold and learn to make something people will need....like food.

Posted by: WAHOO WILLIE | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 04:28 PM

Don't think much of the gold but the food part I think you nailed.

I believe we need to completely revamp our food industry.

We need to stop subsidizing and American's need to stop eating the hydrogenated vegetable oils. It is shit food and bad for you.

Let's get back to the farmers markets and locally produced foods. And fuck the food conglomerates who have promoted the hydrogenated oils so they can make more profit.

And I specifically refer to the foods that will sit in your pantry for months. Chips, cookies, crackers, etc.

[mark l.]

"So I don't agree with him on everything? What's wrong with that? Is there any politician that you agree 100% with."

this is the very nature of why I am stuck with the gop...

I agree with them about 30% of the time, but find nothing that I could reccommend about being a democrat.

without using 'gop' or 'conservative' as a reference, could you even define what it means to be a democrat?

[templar knight]

"Better idea to buy gold."

Yep, bought some of that too, and even more silver, mostly in pre-1964 coins, but purchased some silver Canadian and American dollars along with some Silver Eagles. And laid in a one year supply of dehydrated food from Mountain House. I don't want to be a burden to anyone if this economy continues to sour. People who really need the food can get it from the government, and besides, I don't want to be having to go here and there looking for food in case of an emergency. Makes good sense to have a food supply that is portable and safe. Mountain House has a shelf life of 25-30 years, and we have used it over the years when we went camping in Colorado, so we were quite familiar with the quality. Good insurance in case of a crisis.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Wall Street is smoke and mirrors with other peoples money."

Harpie, you *DO* know that when people buy stocks, the money is used to invest in that company? Companies that create such smoke and mirror items as that computer you're hammering and that chair you're sitting in. OH!!! and that mini-van you're driving.

[jharp]

without using 'gop' or 'conservative' as a reference, could you even define what it means to be a democrat?

Posted by: mark l. | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 05:17 PM

Sure and thanks for asking.

1)Equal rights for all Americans (including gay ones)
2)A tax code that doesn't have Warren Buffet paying 17% tax on 46 million while his secretary pays 30% on 60 thousand
3) No invading and occupying countries that aren't a threat to us
4) Single payer health care system
5) No promoting of any religion by government (including prayer in public schools)
6) Pro choice
7) Pro workplace and product safety
8) Pro not allowing corporations to pollute our air and water
9) No torture
10) No imprisoning Americans without charges or a trial for as long as the President sees fit

I'm sure I left a few out and not all democrats have pleased me on these issues. But I oppose the GOP on every one of them.

[jharp]

"Harpie, you *DO* know that when people buy stocks, the money is used to invest in that company?"

I'm aware of the the rights of holders of common stock.

And some call it investing. I call it stealing. Most common stock, even today after the huge losses, are so goddam overpriced it's ridiculous.

And if the transactions weren't tax subsidized it wouldn't be happening.

And I blame Reagan's policies.

Buying common stock with tax deferred money is a scam to enrich the sellers.

[jharp]

"smoke and mirror items as that computer you're hammering and that chair you're sitting in. OH!!! and that mini-van you're driving."

Take a quick look at Dell And General Motors common stock performance.

Some real solid "investments" you speak of.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Buying common stock with tax deferred money is a scam to enrich the sellers."

So my 401k is a scam to make someone else rich? Damn, maybe I shoulda put my retirement on the backs of my chillin through social insecurity.....and worked 16 more years for less than 1/2 what I'm getting now.....ewwwwwwwww.

[jharp]

So my 401k is a scam to make someone else rich? Damn, maybe I shoulda put my retirement on the backs of my chillin through social insecurity.....and worked 16 more years for less than 1/2 what I'm getting now.....ewwwwwwwww.

Posted by: WAHOO WILLIE | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 07:27 PM

Yes, it is. Note how the Dow has gone from 11,500 in Oct of 1999 to 8200 today. That is some return.

And I don't recommend relying on Social Security either.

There are plenty of alternatives.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"There are plenty of alternatives."

pray tell?

[MarkJ]

Time will tell. I am on the record in favor of a single payer system. It is by far the least expensive and covers everyone.

Think medicare for all. And if you want more coverage but it from a private insurer.

It's what the rest of the world does at about half the cost of our system.

And no Obama, to my disappointment has not proposed this.

jharp,

Do you really read your own posts? Do really live in the same temporal plane as the rest of us? Try asking the Canadians about the joys of "single-payer." They'll laugh in your face and then spit in disgust. Gee, if single-payer is so swell, why are so many Canadians crossing the border to fill up our clinic waiting rooms? Ask a Canadian how long they'll have to wait for a knee replacement, for a hip replacement, or for cataract surgery. Go ahead: I double dare you.

"Medicare for all?" Jesus, Joseph, Mary, and All the Blessed Saints, try hanging out at a retirement village. You'll hear more complaints about Medicare than almost anything else (including the food at the dining facility). Every time I visit my aged parents, Medicare is all they bitch about.

Yeah, jharp, if you think medical care is expensive now, just wait until the government makes it "free."

[WAHOO WILLIE]

never mind there harpie, i can't imagine your financial advice will improve my situation. besides, im off for a few d ays

[jharp]

MarkJ,

"Try asking the Canadians about the joys of "single-payer."

I have many Canadian business associates who are happy with their health care system.

And it always tickles me to see the wingnuts immediately compare the worst health care system (the U.S.) with the second worst (Canada).

You really need to get out more. There are 28 other industrialized countries that do it for about half the price of the U.S. for the same level of care.

And whether you like it or not there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Elections have consequences. The voters have spoken and major reform is on the way.

[templar knight]

"Major reform is on the way."

That was what Clinton promised in 1992. We didn't get any major reform in the Health Care System. I wouldn't count on it if I were you. Wherever there is big money, there is a good chance that nothing will change dramatically.

[jharp]

That was what Clinton promised in 1992. We didn't get any major reform in the Health Care System. I wouldn't count on it if I were you. Wherever there is big money, there is a good chance that nothing will change dramatically.

Posted by: templar knight | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 09:28 PM

You raise a good point. However, it ain't 1992 anymore. Health care is significantly in worse shape along with our entire economy. And the two are not unrelated.

What is your biggest fear of reform? And what do you do about health insurance? And please, save the remarks about socialized medicine, Canada, and losing your right to choose your own doctor.

And I think and hope you are wrong.

And interesting that you think big money will keep any changes from happening. Please carefully consider what would lead you to believe this.

Could it be that some are profiting immensely are are going to fight tooth and nail against any changes?

[notasocialist]

jharp, you are dreaming if you think a single-payer system would be better than what we have now. A decorated WWII RAF fighter pilot has had to come to America three times in the past eight years to have surgery for debilitating wounds he suffered when his plane was shot down during the war. England's lovely single-payer system doesn't provide such care for those over age 70. Time to die, you know? I'm sorry, but I don't want any system that rations care. No socialism. If you want it, then why don't you move to one of those countries whose systems you are so proud of and leave the rest of us alone?

[jharp]

Posted by: notasocialist | Wednesday, November 12, 2008 at 10:21 PM

You are completely full of shit. If you have nothing of substance to add your silence would be appreciated.

No one. Not one single person except right wing morons have suggested socialized medicine. Do you even know what the term means?

[JGoodson]

We just recently purchased our firearms and not a bit too soon!