Say What?

So now along with all the other issues facing the auto industry and a proposed bailout, taxpayers should pony up another $25 Billion for the UAW's health insurance plan? Why not just wait for Obama to re-invent health care and sign them up for that wonderful plan? This makes no sense at all. The average taxpayer will have their health care tweaked by too many poorly informed government hands at the same time we subsidize UAW workers premium plan? That isn't going to sell very well across America. Not at all.

But since then, the economy has worsened, pulling auto sales to their lowest levels in more than two decades. Like a clunker running on fumes, the industry's latest sputters have signaled a need for more expensive repairs. Not only have prominent Democrats proposed lending another $25 billion to help companies meet their day-to-day expenses, but the United Auto Workers is talking about its own $25 billion injection for a labor-run trust that would take over health-care costs from the auto companies in 2010.

Comments

[jharp]

I hope everyone ponders what I have thought for many years.

Our health care system is crippling business. Health care costs have clearly crippled the auto industry and it's doing the same dam thing across all businesses.

[mary]

At this point, with the stock so low, someone could easily step in and buy them outright. So, you have to ask yourself, why isn't this happening?

[jharp]

Because the stock is very likely to go lower. And a very good chance it goes to zero.

Go take a look at their balance sheet. You are also buying $195 billion of debt.

[Dion]

Quick! Somebody call a lawyer!

[mark l.]

"Our health care system is crippling business."

I'm still trying to figure out how raising the taxation rates on doctors and hospital administrators is going to help keep medical costs down. Why not tax the pharmaceutical companies profits, along with increasing the the taxation rates on their workers and staff reserachers? Why not go after the insurance companies executives and their company's profits?

I'm sure there would be no commensurate increase in pay for doctors, pharmaceuticals, or insurance costs.

[mary]

CNBC just reported that the committee "slammed" Neal Kashkari. Whatever he said they said he will remember it for the rest of his career?

Maybe they need to go bankrupt? We already have zombie financials do we need zombie auto makers?

[Anna]

That's nothing! The UN wants us to bail out their pension fund in our spare time as well. If course Obama will be just delighted with this proposal being the globalist that he is and wanting to redistribute our "wealth" all over the world to the less fortunate. And yet he gives less than 1% of his income to charity.

[mark l.]

I had been assuming that GM just got their employees to 65, and then turned them over to medicaid...

not so. They provide health insurance for 'life' to the retired worker, ALONG with their dependents.

"For months they have been poring over stacks of brochures and sitting through sometimes-baffling sales pitches ahead of an enrollment window that opens this month and ends Dec. 31. Because G.M. told them it would cover their health care for life, few studied up on Medicare and other coverage options as they approached retirement.

“Some of these people have been on G.M.’s plan for 40 or 50 years, and now all of this is thrown at them,” said Jack Dickinson, a G.M. retiree who runs the Web site OverTheHillCarPeople.com. “People are highly upset, confused and totally lost. The Medicare system is very hard for older people to tackle.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/10gm.html
bailing gm out, is basically providing an avenue for the union members to keep from having to rely upon medicaid, which is good enough for the rest of america, but not gm.

“People are highly upset, confused and totally lost. The Medicare system is very hard for older people to tackle.”

not hard enough for non-union people, but too hard on union workers? I see another 'two americas' speech in there.

[jimmy hoffa]

finally,
a democratic president that will defend my legacy. obama is already far better than any kennedy.

[jharp]

I'm still trying to figure out how raising the taxation rates on doctors and hospital administrators is going to help keep medical costs down. Why not tax the pharmaceutical companies profits, along with increasing the the taxation rates on their workers and staff reserachers? Why not go after the insurance companies executives and their company's profits?

I'm sure there would be no commensurate increase in pay for doctors, pharmaceuticals, or insurance costs.

Posted by: mark l. | Friday, November 14, 2008 at 01:26 PM

Why not adopt a single payer system like the rest of the world does at half the cost for the same level of care. For everyone.

[jharp]

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm

Please all. Take a look at this link comparing per capita health care costs.

From 2003. Some selected countries.

United States $5,711
United Kingdom $2,317
France $3,048
Australia $2,886
Finland $2,104
Japan $2,249

For the goddamed same level of care. I can not believe Americans can not get this concept through their friggin dimwitted thick skulls.

Oh, and the spread is even greater in 2008. And the costs are much higher.

[Lala]

France's state insurance is funded from the employee's wages and only pays 30 to 60 percent of the medical bill. One must buy an additional insurance plan to pay the rest or pay it out-of-pocket. Students must have a separate accident/anti-social policy for extra-curricular programs or they can't participate.

[Lala]

August 11, 2008

NHS rationing is a reality we should deal with

The truth is that there will never be enough money in the pot to meet every need with the best and latest treatment
Libby Purves

Professor Jonathan Waxman wrote eloquently and angrily in this space last week about the “absurd and arrogant” decision by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, NICE, not to recommend health authorities to give four good new drugs to kidney cancer patients. He underlined our low spending on cancer, the shortcomings of the “quality of life” calculations that NICE makes, and the “paltry” sums saved by denying these particular treatments. These arguments, from a senior oncologist, have power and reason; it is hard to think of the anxiety and panic the decision will have spread through the ranks of those who were hoping for a lifeline, even if it turns out to be temporary.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article4498748.ece

[Dion]

jharp: If you are as senile as your posts indicate, then you'd be a drain on any country's single payer health care scheme. Shouldn't care go to the young and productive of society? Who makes those decisions under a government run health care system? I hear asphyxiation by pure nitrogen is a nice quiet way to go. I'm teasing you jharp, but I seriously think single payer is a bad idea. I don't like the idea that my health care is left to the whim of a government bureaucrat. My health insurance company has treated me pretty well so far.

BTW. How much does it cost for a pharmaceutical company to develop and market a drug?

[Lala]

Australia,

Nov 20, 2006, 02:23 AM
augigi
Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005
Re: Australian Healthcare System, how is it?

permalink
We have Medicare for all, and pay a Medicare levy in our taxes. We all have access to free healthcare, although some GPs etc charge a fee (more and more over time). If I have an infection, I'd take my medicare card to the local bulk-billing clinic, pay nothing and see the doc to get a prescription.

I may have more problems if I needed an operation (elective or semi-elective), as there are not enough nurses to staff enough beds, so public hospitals have long waiting periods for these operations (hip, knee replacements etc).

In addition to this basic cover, you can have private health cover which permits you faster care with the surgeon and hospital of your choice. As time goes by, the government is "encouraging" people to buy private cover by penalizing people over the age of 30 who do not have it with an additional Medicare levy in their taxes.

On the whole, of the countries I've been to, it works the best. However I have never had a serious injury or need for an operation apart from wisdom teeth
removal - and I went private for that.

http://allnurses.com/forums/f123/australian-healthcare-system-how-190824.html

[SacTownMan]

I have Uncles and cousins that worked for and retired from Ford that have their entire families health care paid for life!

http://books.google.com/books?id=vUCo11wTZn0C&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=what+is+the+cost+per+vehicle+for+union+health+care+packages&source=web&ots=9Y5p8zAFPO&sig=evRPip230wrKdK5Q8AyhNlhMZHU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

The cost for the these health care packages adds more than $1500.00 to every American made car.

For a Toyota employee in America the hourly rate including benefits is around $48.00/hour. Compare that to the big three paying almost $73.00/hour. That works out to a cost of around $150,000/yr per American worker.

If the American automakers don't make some changes soon they are doomed to failure. The power of these unions has crippled the ability to compete in a world market!

[mary]

Every year we are asked to "chip in" more and more money for our health insurance. Ironically, they keep changing our "plan" so we are paying more and more for less and less.

[jharp]

"Shouldn't care go to the young and productive of society?"

Care should go to everyone.

"Who makes those decisions under a government run health care system?"

Can't anyone here get it through their friggin brain that single payer is not government run. Holy frack, no wonder our system sucks. Most birdbrains don't even know the difference between single payer and government run.

And to answer your question your doctor makes the decisions.

"I don't like the idea that my health care is left to the whim of a government bureaucrat."

Neither do I. And neither does anyone else. Under a single payer your health care and decisions about your care is left to your doctor.

Goddamit. Are American's really this friggin ignorant?

[jharp]

France's state insurance is funded from the employee's wages and only pays 30 to 60 percent of the medical bill. One must buy an additional insurance plan to pay the rest or pay it out-of-pocket. Students must have a separate accident/anti-social policy for extra-curricular programs or they can't participate.

Posted by: Lala | Friday, November 14, 2008 at 02:35 PM

Link? What you have posted is not accurate.

[jharp]

"I don't like the idea that my health care is left to the whim of a government bureaucrat."

Posted by: Dion | Friday, November 14, 2008 at 02:40 PM

And you'd rather it be left to the whim an insurer who profits from denying you coverage.

And this happens all the time. It has happened to me with my daughter and it fucking sucks and is a national disgrace.

I believe we all agree on one point. It should be left up to the doctor of your choice.

[Hank]

When the govt. finally takes over health care, will people still be able to sue for
mal-practice? Lawsuits are one reason health care costs so much.
Just ask John Edwards.

[jharp]

Hank,

I'll say it again.

The government doesn't and isn't taking over health care.

What's so hard to understand about that? You are ignorant and refuse to listen and learn.

[jharp]

"Lawsuits are one reason health care costs so much."

Bullshit. That is not true. Malpractice costs are minimal.

[mary]

Oh god help me, I'm about to agree with Jharp on something. He is right about malpractice. It isn't an issue.

However, I should like to point out that my doctor may be making the decisions about my health care but, he always asks about my coverage before he makes his decisions. So, in essence the insurance company is still in control. Recently a friend had a procedure done. She was told that her network doctor wasn't as good as the out of network doctor. she had the procedure done at the out of network doctor and paid in cash. She said she will never do it again. The out of network doctor's staff treated her horribly. At her last visit they demanded payment up front before the doctor saw her. She said she felt like a criminal and she left the office without being seen as they totally mortified her. We have had many discussions about her experience. We figure the doctor is making more money on the insurance patients than on the private payer ones. Way more money.

[jharp]

"So, in essence the insurance company is still in control."

Quite true.

And they profit from denying coverage. It happened to my family and still makes my blood boil 10 years later.

And thanks for the post, mary.

[jharp]

gotta run but hope to continue later

[Hank]

Having seen the replies to my entry, I did some poking around.
I stand corrected, it appears malpractice costs are not much of an issue.
My mistake.

[Lala]

The French insurance - known as social security - I lived in France, I know what it is

the CMU (Couverture Maladie Universelle - Law 99-641) is a means of paying a subscription for joining the French NHS and is potentially available to all residents of France.The French Social Security defines the cost of virtually every type of medical treatment using the ‘Tarif de Convention’ (official or conventional rate) and reimburses medical expenses at an average of 70% of this rate.

For example, the ‘Tarif de Convention’ for a consultation with a doctor is €22. If your nominated GP was ‘conventionné’, you would pay him the €22 consultation fee directly and be reimbursed €15.40 by the French Social Security.

Some healthcare providers are ‘conventionné – honoraires libres’ and charge over and above the ‘Tarif de Convention’, so if you were charged €35 for a consultation for example, the French Social Security would still only reimburse €15.40.

Treatment received from providers who are ‘non conventionné’ will not be reimbursed by the French Social Security, and if you do not have nominated GP and/or go to see another doctor without referral from your GP, they will only reimburse you on the basis of 50% of the ‘Tarif de Convention’.

You can, like the majority of people in France, take out what is known as a 'top-up' policy (complémentaire or mutuelle).

These policies are designed to:

*

reimburse part or all of the difference between the actual cost of treatment and the amount paid by the basic medical insurance scheme
*

provide cover for certain types of treatment not which are not reimbursed by the French Social Security (e.g. private rooms in the event of hospitalisation)
*

ensure that you receive an acceptable level of reimbursement for dental and optical treatment which are poorly indemnified under the basic medical insurance scheme.

[Dion]

jharp: Since you're the expert and I'm the bird brain; explain to me how single payer health care is financed. Where does the money come from and who controls it?

[Lala]

Mary,
My daughter went to the emergency room in Palm Springs, Calif. She didn't have her insurance card with her at the time. The bill was $2000.00. When I submitted the insurance info to the hospital the bill magically went down to $1200.00. The ambulance bill was $1000.00. The insurance paid $800.00 and I bargained the remaining $200.00 down.

[Lala]

The malpractice insurance is very high in some states for certain doctors, like ob/gyn.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3495/is_/ai_n20525142

[mary]

Lala, the poor girl, when you don't have your card they get really uppity. I hope she is alright.

I think costs like that are the reason why they didn't like my friend paying privately. As it was, it cost her a mint. All those who submit to the insurance company for reimbursement have now hired staffs to handle the insurance claims. Makes you wonder how lucrative it is when they have one person to deal with patient files and hospital admissions, etc. and a team to deal with insurance.

Texas has done so much vis a vie malpractice that physicians are literally clamoring to practice there. As it is, they, now this is rumor, are only granting licenses to practice there to those who attended medical school in the state.

[Teleprompter Messiah]

jharp:

If you want politicians to decide how many eyeglasses and artificial teeth are allowed in any year, go with the European system.

If you want to see an orthopaedic surgeon in less than six months from the time your primary care physician makes the referral or you want to get your granny's hip replacement in less than two years, go with the American system.

There is absolutely no comparison with the ready availability of healthcare in this country and that in Europe or Canada.

The best way to control costs and to allow free choice in services is to move us away from the employer-funded system to a high deductible portable insurance system with health savings accounts. LASIK surgery and eyecare in general are cheaper and more readily available because the majority of the funding comes from the individual payor.

[mary]

Lala, the premiums for obgyn's are high in some states, forcing some to stop delivering babies. But, the insurance industry is addressing the incidence of malpractice by using a lot of loss prevention programs. And, the obgyns simply pass along the costs to the patients and they still make enormous money.

[Lala]

Canada - single payer health insurance

Friday November 14, 2008
See today's LifeSiteNews stories
Send news tips

Canada’s Health Care System heading for “Demographic Blowout” with Aging Population: Study

By Hilary White

OTTAWA, November 14, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A new study has revealed that the Canadian government will spend $171.9-billion this year on health care, or $5,170 per person. At this rate “health care spending is expected to grow faster than Canada’s economy, outpacing inflation and population growth,” according to Glenda Yeates, President and CEO of the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), which released the study yesterday.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/nov/08111406.html

[Lala]

Mary,
My daughter had no problem with the hospital at all. And they treated her not knowing whether or not she had insurance. They didn't check her ID either. She could have given a false name.

I don't understand why a doctor would not want a patient who is paying cash for her treatment. My daughter went to an orthopedic doctor who was not on her plan and she had no problem. He was probably happy that it was one less form to fill out.

I, myself, am in favor of only carrying "major medical" insurance but my state does not allow it.

[mark l.]

"Because of this high level of reimbursement and coverage, French health care is among the most expensive in the world. France’s health care budget is the world’s third largest, accounting for 9.8% of GNP. If spending continues at this rate, the health service may be 11 billion euros in debt by the end of 2004 and 70 billion euros in debt by the end of 2020."

http://www.nchc.org/facts/France.pdf

Yes, the french system is wonderful, now. It is not so wonderful to the people who inherit the debt, which will grow exponentially.

the margin of debt, to what they are putting into is increasing beyond a linear rate. It is a ponzi scheme. this is the greatest crime of socialism-maximizing the moment for popular support with no regard to future ramifications.

French external debt-4.4 trillion.
French gdp-2.56 trillion.

ext debt/gdp ratio of 171%.

The US has a ratio of 100%.
but our gdp is 13.8 trillion.

We could borrow 10 trillion dollars, bringing our external debt in line with France, and put all that money into healthcare over a 20 year run. Unless, debt is a bad thing.

[Rick Caird]

Jharp believes in the Easter Bunny too. For some reason, he seems to believe that if the government becomes the single payer of health care, the government will never attempt to exert any control over access, quality, wait times, or the cost of the procedures. Next up: why Santa Claus should provide health care and why it will be merry for all.

Rick

[Dion]

Since jharp neglected to infuse me with his expertise on single payer health care. I Googled it. It looks like government run health care to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care

But then there's this:

http://www.grahamazon.com/sp/what2.php

I find this quote quite amusing:

"Single-payer isn't government bureacracy...

it's actually government efficiency. "

Well now isn't that a clever way of putting it? However one wants to term it, it is government run and doomed to failure. Perhaps next we can look at Hawaii's foray into single payer health care.

[Mark_0454]

from PJ O'Rourke; "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free."

[jharp]

Just as I thought. Not one well thought out response.

I don't think anyone even understands what a single payer system is or has any idea of the issues involved.

Oh well, just stay in the dark and object to whatever Obama and the Democratic Congress decide to do with your health care system.

You will have a good long time to whine. Tune into Fox, Rush, and Hannity. The whining and bitching and moaning points are soon to be broadcast live.

[Dion]

Enlighten me dear sage. I've given you all day to bone up on your talking points. The Huffpo and Obama sites are only a click away, but I would prefer your unique interpretation of health care utopia. I'll hold my breath...................NOT.

[tk]

Here is the world according to jharp. National health care where the government gives us our food so we all eat our vegies, fruit,fish and no sweets. Government run health gyms where attendance is mandatory and weight is monitored. No alcohol is ever allowed. Health checks are required along with blood tests to make sure no one is cheating and if they are incarceration in government run rehab centers.

[jharp]

Here is the world according to jharp. National health care where the government gives us our food so we all eat our vegies, fruit,fish and no sweets. Government run health gyms where attendance is mandatory and weight is monitored. No alcohol is ever allowed. Health checks are required along with blood tests to make sure no one is cheating and if they are incarceration in government run rehab centers.

Posted by: tk | Friday, November 14, 2008 at 09:38 PM

You are every bit as ignorant as the other commentators on health care.

Some advice.

Whine and complain about the war on Christmas, gays, illegal immigrants and Muslims taking over the country. And bitch that we aren't killing and torturing enough dark skinned people. And observe how the democrats change the world.

And I guess you are right in one respect. It doesn't matter one bit what you wingnuts think. Why bother. You are powerless and irrelevant.

[Dion]

Yes tk. I'll bet if non hypoallergenic Che Guevara t-shirts, Birkenstocks and Startbuck's lattes were deemed unhealthy by the Obama Health care directorate, jharp would sing a different tune.

[Dion]

This is an exemplary of the left:

"Whine and complain about the war on Christmas, gays, illegal immigrants and Muslims taking over the country. And bitch that we aren't killing and torturing enough dark skinned people. And observe how the democrats change the world.

And I guess you are right in one respect. It doesn't matter one bit what you wingnuts think. Why bother. You are powerless and irrelevant."

In other words; your opinion doesn't count.

So much for Democracy.

[jharp]

In other words; your opinion doesn't count.

Posted by: Dion | Friday, November 14, 2008 at 10:59 PM

You are correct. Your opinion doesn't count. Your guys lost.

Elections have consequences.

[Dion]

jharp:

Yes elections have consequences, you're just not smart enough to know what they are.

I'm still waiting for answers to previous questions.

[Dion]

Simple question jfart:

"Since you're the expert and I'm the bird brain; explain to me how single payer health care is financed. Where does the money come from and who controls it?"

Even someone with a memory as transient as yours should remember it. Use the scroll wheel on your mouse, imbecile.

I'll check back after you've had time to collude with your Daily Kos comrades.

[jharp]

Dion.

I'm going to bed but my short answer is the same folks who are paying for it now.

The users. It really isn't that complicated. We are paying for it now. As a matter of fact we are paying double what it could be.

And just in case you don't know, single payer is not on the table. It's what I favor and what most of the industrialized world does. I am on the record that Obama's plan doesn't go far enough.