I Guess Joe's Right

So, infamous Joe the Plumber says he is scared for America if Obama wins?

Joe the Plumber all but came out of the water closet for Sen. John McCain on Friday, saying that his famous exchange with Sen. Barack Obama made him "scared for America" and that he doesn't trust the Democratic presidential candidate on taxes.

It's a bit more complex than that. Let's see - death threats to a pollster for showing a result Progressives didn't like.  A campaign that has no problem tossing a reporter off the bus if they produce something they don't like. I guess the media will let that pass. I've come to the conclusion that it isn't ideology or business concerns that is driving much of the media bias. It's their desire for a compelling story, a great headline.

They want so badly to write the headline "America Elects First Black President" in their lifetimes, they will stop at nothing in achieving that end. But I don't know that Obama is really the one to be scared of. He isn't dumb.

Biden would be off the ticket in four years if the Dems win. Obama likely will try and annoint a successor. And they could be good for America if Obama moderates because he wants to keep his job. If, driven by his own desire to be "great," he does that - where does all this liberal hate and rage go then?

That could end up being a more significant threat to America than Obama's tax policy. Capital can flee and come back. Business people can speed up, or back off out of prudence driving the economy into the tank. But only for so long, until we elect a new government. Presidents can be un-elected.

A newly emerged and unhinged Progressive mind-set built upon the rubble of people who have bombed their own country in the past is a far more untidy mess to clean up.

Comments

[North Dallas Thirty]

Heck, Dan, you could look on your own blog and see what Obama and his supporters are doing.

"I don't blame the cynicsm - I mean look - you have a VP pick who's hiding her medical records so we don't find out her white trash ho of a daughter is the one who actually had the retard baby - and then there's McCain - the guy who sold out his country for a free ride in the Hanoi Hilton - I mean this guy can't brush his own hair or his own teeth - I wonder if junkie-thief Cindy wipes his asss?"

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/10/bull.html#comment-136273607

Or how about:

"Dan, could you do the world a favor?

Sometime after Obama wins the Presidency and you decide to kill yourself, would you please videotape it and post it somewhere. There are many who would enjoy watching that."

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/10/bull.html#comment-136300067

Or how about:

"You people display borderline retarded mental capacity along with your extreme paranoia. So, by extension, does about half of our country."

And then there's:

"You should be shot or otherwise made dead. Hoe someone helps you out with that."

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/10/bull.html#comment-136324823

But we can't forget:

"What a shame it would be if someone off'ed you. A shot to the head or a pillow over the face. Fuck you, Dan."

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/10/bull.html#comment-136325225

These Obama supporters are so tolerant and progressive that they're basically demanding the death of anyone who disagrees with them.

[Fred Beloit]

North does it again. Perhaps they won't be eager to come back for more.

[jharp]

"So, infamous Joe the Plumber says he is scared for America if Obama wins?"

Too funny. A hack unlicensed plumber who either can't afford to or chooses not to pay his taxes is your spokesperson now.

Joe better be afraid no matter who wins. The dude is a loser and can't seem to grasp that Obama will lower his taxes.

[WBestPresidentEver]

Maybe all the worshippers of the new "Messiah" will join up with the new Heavens Gate group (remember them ?)and wait for Hale Bopp to come by again. They have a new webiste now and are looking for new members. Maybe all the males will all go to Mexico as they did before and get castrated, as that would be a good thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale-Bopp

http://www.heavensgate.com/

Their new site:

http://www.freewebs.com/xfody/

There is still hope.

[jharp]

"Joe better be afraid no matter who wins."

Just to be 100% clear. Joe needs only to be afraid for his own economic well being. (I don't want anyone to take this as some sort of threat)(it is not).

And I really do Joe does well with Obama's tax cuts. Most Americans will.

[North Dallas Thirty]

"A hack unlicensed plumber who either can't afford to or chooses not to pay his taxes is your spokesperson now."

Six words: "Charlie Rangel", "Martin Nesbitt", and "Charles O'Byrne"

http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=287149

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/10/22/2008-10-22_top_paterson_aide_charles_obyrne_did_not.html

Given that you and Obambi support, endorse, and have no problem with that, why don't you explain the difference?

Oh, that's right; Rangel is black, so he never has to pay taxes or obey the law, and Nesbitt and O'Byrne are Democrats, so they don't have to either.

[Fred Beloit]

"After the Obama campaign was warned that they needed to verify the residency status of their staff members registered to vote in Ohio, thirteen Obama campaign workers withdrew their registrations and ballots."
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31681_What_Vote_Fraud#rss

[Lala]

Government computers used to find information on Joe the Plumber
Investigators trying to determine whether access was illegal
Friday, October 24, 2008 8:57 PM
By Randy Ludlow
The Columbus Dispatch
"State and local officials are investigating if state and law-enforcement computer systems were illegally accessed when they were tapped for personal information about "Joe the Plumber."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/24/joe.html?sid=101

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo: "And I really do Joe does well with Obama's tax cuts. Most Americans will."

Harpo, I suppose you are referring to those Americans who pay no federal income taxes but who will receive a refund of something they never funded in the first place. We normally call this type of "refund" welfare. Do you mind if we use the correct terminology?

[jharp]

"Given that you and Obambi support, endorse, and have no problem with that, why don't you explain the difference?"

I don't support it you jackass.

And when did President Obama endorse not paying one's taxes?

[Fred Beloit]

Hahaha the hard-driving privacy rights advocates are spying on J the p. What hypocrisy!

[North Dallas Thirty]

Furthermore, Obama's "cuts" are not cuts; they are tax CREDITS.

Tax cuts, which are a reduction in the tax rate, won't work well for the vast majority of these people, who currently pay nothing in income tax.

Instead, what Obama is proposing be done is that people who work and make money should have their tax rate raised, taking money out of their pocket immediately, so that people who won't or don't work and don't make money can receive free government checks.

Even Social Security requires you to pay something into it. Obama's tax plan is nothing more than welfare, and should be called such.

[jharp]

"Harpo, I suppose you are referring to those Americans who pay no federal income taxes but who will receive a refund of something they never funded in the first place."

No, Fred. I am referring to those who earn under 250K that will have their taxes lowered.

[Fred Beloit]

"And when did President Obama endorse not paying one's taxes?" Why he endorsed it when he said he wants to give higher welfare payments to people who don't pay taxes, you simp.

[jharp]

"Instead, what Obama is proposing be done is that people who work and make money should have their tax rate raised, taking money out of their pocket immediately, so that people who won't or don't work and don't make money can receive free government checks."

This is a lie and you either know it or are an idiot.

I think both.

[North Dallas Thirty]

"And when did President Obama endorse not paying one's taxes?"

First off, President Obama doesn't exist.

Second off, Barack Obama endorsed it when he chose Martin Nesbitt as his treasurer.

Third, Barack Obama and you both became utterly hypocritical about it when you attacked Joe the Plumber for allegedly having tax liens.

Fourth, since Barack Obama endorses Charlie Rangel, it should be obvious that Barack Obama endorses not paying your taxes.

[Fred Beloit]

"No, Fred. I am referring to those who earn under 250K that will have their taxes lowered."
Oh, you mean the 95% minus the 40% = 55%?
Is that $250,000 indexed to inflation, Harpo? Or is that too logical a thing for a Marxist to think of?

[mary]

Reading this statement made me think of the "soup nazi" from Seinfeld:

"This cancellation is non-negotiable, and further opportunities for your station to interview with this campaign are unlikely, at best for the duration of the remaining days until the election," wrote Laura K. McGinnis, Central Florida communications director for the Obama campaign."

[jharp]

"Why he endorsed it when he said he wants to give higher welfare payments to people who don't pay taxes, you simp."

I must have missed this.

"he said he wants to give higher welfare payments"? Please Fred, put the bong away.

[North Dallas Thirty]

"This is a lie and you either know it or are an idiot."

Nope, it's all spelled out right here.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

The entertaining part is how Obama's welfare plan punishes those people who work by phasing out the Messiah's "credits" as your income rises -- which means you have no incentive to work harder because doing so and earning more money would reduce your government check.

The reason Obama does this is simple; the more people that are dependent on the government, the more power he has over them. People who can exist independently of the government can vote against what the government is doing.

[Fred Beloit]

"I must have missed this."
That is very odd because nobody else missed it.

[mary]

Well, if you don't pay income tax and you get a "refund" then what do you call it? Most people call it a handout and it becomes "welfare". Now, if he is giving a tax credit to people who aren't paying taxes anyway then that must mean he plans to raise their taxes so he can give them a tax "credit". That is the only way to give a tax credit. But he isn't saying that part and thinking people are just stupid.

[jharp]

Fred,

Your 40% number is bullshit just as almost all of the GOP's platform.

If you take a look at the population and see who are not paying taxes they are:

1. Infants into Teens or 0-18 year olds. Teens from 16-18 work but do not make enough to pay much in taxes effectively no tax. 78.5 million/305 million = 25.7% (Calculation from 9/2008 USA Census)

2. Retirees 65 and over typically do not pay taxes. They are not working or bring in small incomes and are living off their savings so effective taxes are very low. 39 million/305 million = 12.8%

3. Mothers with infants, the stay at home mothers.

4. 5% unemployed, majority of them still pay taxes.

5. 2% large farmers who don't pay taxes but get subsidy.

This is the group Republicans consider non-tax-payers.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Furthermore, jharp, if this all were, as the Obamamessiah claims, to "offset" the payroll tax, the easier example would simply be to abolish the payroll tax on anyone making less than a certain amount.

However, the problem is that that takes money away from the government and puts it into working families' pockets instead. Obama wants all money to flow THROUGH the government so he can dispense it as HE sees fit, and take money away from working families to give to those who refuse to work under his new welfare plan.

[jharp]

mary

"Well, if you don't pay income tax and you get a "refund" then what do you call it?"

Would you be kind enough to cite Obama's policy of giving a "refund" to someone who paid no tax?

[mary]

I know, jharp. Obama said there will be a work component. I don't see that, I think he is just tweaking his "economic plan" as he goes along every time the republicans find another loophole in it. That in and off itself scares me as he doesn't take his own plan seriously because I think in his heart he knows he isn't going to just tax his version of "the rich". I think eventually he will bring back the tax on the very poor who pay absolutely nothing now, this will enable him to keep his promise and give them a tax credit. I have learned to read what he says exactly and not be the reader who is "assuming". He wants you to assume because if you actually read the stuff, you can't believe what you are reading. Meanwhile, under the republicans, the top earners are still paying the bulk of the taxes. You know when he says "spread the wealth" in my mind he means "tax everyone proportionately". By the time people realize this they will have elected him and it will be way too late as he will have his democratic congress and senate and essentially everyone will be at his beck and call.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Again, from the article I cited:

"Here's the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be "refundable," which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

The total annual expenditures on refundable "tax credits" would rise over the next 10 years by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion, according to the Tax Policy Center. This means that the tax-credit welfare state would soon cost four times actual cash welfare. By redefining such income payments as "tax credits," the Obama campaign also redefines them away as a tax share of GDP. Presto, the federal tax burden looks much smaller than it really is.

The political left defends "refundability" on grounds that these payments help to offset the payroll tax. And that was at least plausible when the only major refundable credit was the earned-income tax credit. Taken together, however, these tax credit payments would exceed payroll levies for most low-income workers."

Again, if Barack Obama wants to get rid of the payroll tax for lower income workers, he should get rid of the payroll tax. But what he's doing is giving people MORE than their annual payroll tax in addition to their paying no income tax -- which means he's giving a refund to people that is larger than the total amount of tax they've paid.

Welfare check.

And of course, jharp, you didn't want to deal with the fact that these credits start getting smaller the more income you earn, WELL BEFORE you hit the magic $200k or whatever it is this week threshold. In other words, the Obamamessiah will punish you for making more money by taking away your government welfare check.

[North Dallas Thirty]

And the last is pretty important; what does jharp think people are going to do with this choice?

-- Don't work and receive a government welfare check

-- Work harder, but be taxed more and get less from the government, so that in the end you make the same as you did when you didn't work and just got a government welfare check.

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo, how about some links to support those nums you tossed into the discussion so Joe Biden-like.

[mary]

NDT, I now understand why some columnists are calling this "buying votes".

It is a pretty American plan. It gives people absolutely no incentive to achieve, to make their life better. It is a great way to kill off "the American dream" and it will kill off "affirmative action" too since no one will care to go to college then. Oh but then how will the colleges fill their seats? Geez, it is like a snowball rolling down a hill.

[mary]

"It is a pretty American plan" hmmm type UNAMERICAN PLAN and yet it came up that way. how weird.

[jharp]

Just as I thought, mary.

You've got nothing.

[jharp]

"Here's the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be "refundable," which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.

Bullshit.

Those who pay no income taxes do not get an income tax "refund".

And you know it.

[mary]

No jharp. I'm listening to BO and JB very carefully. You should show me what you have, since you won't be able to refute what I have written.

Undecided like myself are the "shorts" of the voting process. I am examining everything said on both sides very very carefully. I haven't yet reached my decision.

[mary]

you are parsing words "refund" or "tax credit". Having read everything I believe he will start taxing those people paying no tax whatsoever under the republicans so he can give them a "tax credit" and then he will say "well I am keeping my promise to give you a "tax credit", I just forgot to tell you that now I'm giving you a tax too". He really thinks the low wage earners are stupid.

[jharp]

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/bookman/entries/2008/10/07/the_half_of_americans_pay_no_i.html

[jharp]

Undecided like myself are the "shorts" of the voting process. I am examining everything said on both sides very very carefully. I haven't yet reached my decision.

Posted by: mary | Saturday, October 25, 2008 at 03:19 PM

Then you are an idiot. But I think you're lying.

McCain and Obama differ on almost every issue. Or are you one of the waiting to hear from God mental midgets?

[jharp]

Here it is mary. All laid out nicely for you.

Now turn off Fox News, Rush, and Hannity and read and study it for yourself.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

[Todd]

Oh, please. Joe the Plumber. I'm scared shitless of the idea that this guy could run for Congress. Not like the congress hasn't been filled up with batshit crazy people who know absolutely nothing like Michelle Bachmann. And, then we end up getting totally unqualified hacks running for major offices like Sarah Palin.

[Continuum]

There is some glimmer of hope in most of these comments.

At least the neocons now realize that the vast majority of Americans are going to elect Obama as president.

Considering some of the previous neocon comments, I guess that represents progress.

[mary]

a government "of the people, for the people and by the people" should include all the people not just the ivy leaguers and the wealthy. If Joe the plumber wants to run, then he should after all he is "the people", isn't he?

[mary]

are you talking about the conservatives who are suddenly and mercilessly attacking Governor Palin?

The ones who wrongly think it is okay to lose the election as BO will only have four years and/or be impeached before then?

The ones who do not realize the impact even a 1 term president can have on the Constitution and our way of living?

[Lala]

And when they run out of money they'll copy this - (US Congress is already talking about taxing 401K)

ARGENTINA'S PENSION GRAB
SETS DANGEROUS PRECEDENT
by Joe Duarte, MD
Joe-Duarte.com & IntelligentForecasts.com
October 23, 2008

A New Level Of Government Thievery

Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if the government decided to put your private retirement funds, ie. your IRA or 401-k into the National Treasury with no hint as to whether it would ever give it back.

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo, from your link: "The actual figure of “taxable units” who don’t pay the standard income tax — a taxable unit being a couple filing jointly or a person filing — is somewhere around 38 percent."
You are calling me a liar over 2%?

[North Dallas Thirty]

"Those who pay no income taxes do not get an income tax "refund"."

Would you please read references provided to you, jharp?

"The political left defends "refundability" on grounds that these payments help to offset the payroll tax. And that was at least plausible when the only major refundable credit was the earned-income tax credit. Taken together, however, these tax credit payments would exceed payroll levies for most low-income workers."

In other words, they're not paying income taxes, and the amount of the check that the government is writing them is more than they paid into the payroll system.

That's welfare. They are getting a tax refund that is greater than what they paid into the system.

Furthermore, the payroll tax represents funding for Social Security and Medicare. What Barack Obama is doing is writing welfare checks through both systems, since he intends to let people who essentially never paid into either receive full benefits.

In addition, Barack Obama's "tax credits" phase out as incomes get larger, well below his magic threshold -- which means that the government cuts off your "make work pay" credit so that you work harder, but receive the same amount of money.

Barack Obama's entire tax plan says that people who work should be forced to pay people who don't work so that the people who don't work make as much money as those who do work.

[jharp]

Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if the government decided to put your private retirement funds, ie. your IRA or 401-k into the National Treasury with no hint as to whether it would ever give it back.

Posted by: Lala | Saturday, October 25, 2008 at 03:47 PM

Imagine if a giant meteor smashed into the earth.

And really Lala, your utterly ridiculous mention of such a thing isn't all that far off from what the Wall Street crooks have just done under George Bush and the GOP. Though I will have to admit they only stole 40% of our private retirement funds. Though it's not over yet, as that 40% number is certain to increase.

[jharp]

Harpo, from your link: "The actual figure of “taxable units” who don’t pay the standard income tax — a taxable unit being a couple filing jointly or a person filing — is somewhere around 38 percent."
You are calling me a liar over 2%?

Posted by: Fred Beloit | Saturday, October 25, 2008 at 03:52 PM

The actual figure of “taxable units” who don’t pay the standard income tax — a taxable unit being a couple filing jointly or a person filing — is somewhere around 38 percent. Even that number is grossly exaggerated, because it excludes what people pay through the payroll tax.

Liar seems appropriate but at the very least you are a dishonest deceiver.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Right on, Lala.....what it makes obvious is that Barack Obama wants to take away our 401(k) accounts and replace them with government retirement accounts where the government would give us $600 per year and a 3% rate of return.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/23/would-obama-dems-kill-401k-plans.html

The big thing, though, is that it would put all this 401(k) money into Congress's hands, rather than the private sector -- for them to waste like they do the Social Security trust fund now.

[North Dallas Thirty]

Right on, Lala.....what it makes obvious is that Barack Obama wants to take away our 401(k) accounts and replace them with government retirement accounts where the government would give us $600 per year and a 3% rate of return.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/23/would-obama-dems-kill-401k-plans.html

The big thing, though, is that it would put all this 401(k) money into Congress's hands, rather than the private sector -- for them to waste like they do the Social Security trust fund now.

Congress apparently believes that American workers are stupid frightened children who need Barack Obama to invest their money for them at a rotten rate of return.

[jharp]

Barack Obama's entire tax plan says that people who work should be forced to pay people who don't work so that the people who don't work make as much money as those who do work.

Posted by: North Dallas Thirty | Saturday, October 25, 2008 at 03:53 PM

You are a liar. And you know it. And anyone with half a brain knows it.

I've had enough for today. I'm off to my party.