I Honestly Can't Believe I'm Reading This

Regardless of what any one American's politics or personal election preference might be, is it lost on people what they are reading if they click into Andrew Sullivan's blog from Memeorandum?

Here is how Swindle describes it to Byron York:

"I vaguely recall that story being told, among other stories."

Convinced? The answer as to why McCain never mentioned this in his first account or for a quarter century since and didn't even recall it when asked to recount memories of three separate Christmases in captivity is dismissed with the usual gambit:

What is quite well known beyond ANY shadow of a doubt is that Senator John McCain spent five years in captivity for serving his country during which time he was brutalized to such a severe extent that he still carries the scars and handicap from that captivity.

What is also well known beyond any shadow of a doubt is that Senator Barack Obama had some form of long-standing tie to an unrepentant domestic terrorist - but we can't know the extent of those ties because the Richard J. Daley Library of the University of Illinois at Chicago is blocking access to the records of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.

And all Andrew Sullivan and a significant number of new media members on the Left care about is whether or not a North Vietnamese prison guard drew a cross in the sand with a stick some 40 years ago?

Sorry, but are you people f~&/ing insane? Do you not have any sense of what country you actually live in today? Do you really not understand why America has rejected your presidential candidates at the ballot box in so many elections over these last forty or so years?

If this is how you intend to present yourself and your arguments from now until Fall, I'd suggest you prepare to lose once again. Turning any good American's stomach with your pathetic, distasteful and ultimately bat crap crazy tactics just ain't no way to win friends, or secure votes.

And if the Atlantic wants to preserve anything like a reputation, it might do well to consider giving Andrew Sullivan a break. Whatever bend he has gone around does not appear to be the kind from which one very easily makes it back.

Comments

[docweasel]

Dang, Dan finally came around on McCain. Maybe I can start reading him again.

[memomachine]

Hmmmmm.

@ Steve J.

"Why didn't he mention it before he ran for President in 1999?"

Ahh. You've never served in the US military then.

Here's the thing. Anybody who has served even in peacetime accumulates a vast repository of stories. And not all stories get told. Some are inappropriate for the audience. Some are far too personal. Some just never seem to come up.

And that's in peacetime.

Also I'd suggest that if a particular story doesn't come up often as a narrative by a man continuously tortured for 5+ years as a POW it's probably because remembering the story also means remembering the pain.

How about this as a test. You recount the most painful horrifying story of your life to all of us so we can critique it. Recount the story of how close friends or family died or were murdered. Recount the emotional nightmare of that time.

And see if you can do so without re-experiencing the awfulness of that moment. Then consider what it must be like for McCain to do the same thing when people were purposefully thinking up new ways to cripple him for life.

Got it?

[Rob Crawford]

The left is in full-on panic mode. Just read their comments here -- desperation, lies, and projection.

[wolfwalker]

In all the discussion I've seen about this, on several blogs and other websites, I can't believe no one has mentioned what is (to me) the most obvious reason for McCain not telling this story for several years after his release:

He was protecting the guard involved.

North Vietnam was a communist country at the time -- one whose brutality McCain knew well. I don't know if Christianity was actually outlawed there, but I'm sure it was Fiercely Frowned On. And kindness to a prisoner was definitely a Bad Thing for a guard to be suspected of. Given the details of the story, it probably wouldn't have been very hard for the North Vietnamese version of the KGB to identify the guard involved and punish him, probably with death, certainly with torture. So he kept quiet about it, until the North Vietnam regime mellowed a bit and the guard wouldn't be endangered.

[Orion]

Pretty intersting premise. The world is so fortunate to have benefitted from the honesty of atheistic left-wingers. Nice little 100 million-plus death count you degenerates racked up in the 20th century. But maybe you can just look at it as having eliminated lots and lots of carbon footprints while you listen to emo music and beat off to your Che Guevara poster.

To put it in perspective, atheists in the 20th century murdered more innocent human beings than religionists in all the religious wars since Christ's death 2000 years ago. Including quite a number of people simply because of their religious beliefs. Not all atheists are murdering, lying scum of course, but they seem to make a lot of excuses for the the ones who have been.

[Jamie]

I'm going to regret this, but... Not You, have you ever been in a place where you don't have access to a calendar? Think of something that happened during that time. When did it take place? I'm lucky; I grew up as an Air Force brat, moving every few years, so the events of my childhood are often tied to places. I can remember my room in thus-and-such a house, my friend during thus-and-such a grade, with good accuracy, and knowing when we lived in a certain place means I can also infer the general dates of events. My husband, who lived in the same house from age six to age eighteen, certainly can remember a particular beach party he attended with so-and-so, but he can't for the life of him place that party in time accurately. Is that helpful?

Wait - I'm Christian, so I'm probably lying. (Sir or madam, you might want to keep those thoughts to yourself. They don't actually bolster your credibility.)

[Spartan112]

"Unlike KOS's wildass accusations against McCain, Biden is a PROVEN plagiarzer:"

Oh it's clear McCain has plagiarized. Not the cross story, but his initial response to the Georgian crisis was stoled straight from Wikipedia the world's leading source for geopolitical history.

[BobInStamford]

Cmon. Grandpa McSame is OLD. Does anyone really believe it when an old man tells you how far he had to walk to get to school as a kid? Or tells you what the problem is with 'young' people today? Uh, no.

I hear that gramps has a story about how he stormed Omaha Beach and went to save a soldier whose 2 brothers already died. He was trying to save Private O'Brien or Ryan or something.

Thank you for your SERVICE, Senator McCain! You keep those stories coming!

[memomachine]

Hmmmmm.

@ Not You

I'm copying a comment I left on another blog because it sums up my opinion.

"As for the McCain/Solzynitsyn story, yes, it's impossible to prove OR disprove. It's just awfully coincidental"

I'm not a McCain supporter but what really strikes me is the ridiculous nonsense over a very minor story.

But hey go right ahead and attack McCain for it. I could talk till I'm blue in the face but I've always felt that you can't make a horse drink water and you can't prevent someone who is intent on making a fool of themself.

2. "If he's going to make his POW experience his central narrative, then he's opening himself up to the same scrutiny that Kerry did when he played the Vietnam card in 2004."

O.o

Good luck with that one. John Kerry spent 3 months in a combat zone, accumulated 3 purple hearts in questionable circumstances and then, --THEN--, used an obscure rule that allows anyone who accumulated 3 purple hearts to transfer out of combat.

All without any permanent disabling injury -and- the infamy of being the -only- member of the US military to have evoked this obscure rule.

O.o

On the other hand John McCain was tortured for years, given the opportunity to go home but abandon his fellow soldiers still in captivity and -CHOSE- to stay and endure even worse torture for another -3 years-.

Oh yeah. Compare John Kerry with John McCain?

You go man. You go hard.

[memomachine]

Hmmmmm.

@ Spartan112

"Oh it's clear McCain has plagiarized. Not the cross story, but his initial response to the Georgian crisis was stoled straight from Wikipedia the world's leading source for geopolitical history."

I'd call you an imbecile but that would be insulting the wrong people.

So if I say that New Jersey borders New York, something that's in WikiPedia, that I'm actually plagarizing WikiPedia and not repeating a commonly know *fact*?

Seriously. Get a prescription for that before it gets worse.

[Qwinn]

Yes, if I were interned in a prison camp in a hostile country, and a prison guard there risked his life to loosen my ropes every once in a while, the FIRST thing I would do when I gained my freedom would be to tell everyone about it and shout it from the rooftops, so my benefactor when I was in prison could be quickly found and summarily shot.

Only leftists could be so utterly self-centered that this obvious reason why McCain wouldn't mention it publicly for a long time never occurs to them. If a leftist in the same situation could've scored political points by throwing his benefactor back in Vietnam in front of the firing line, it wouldn't even occur to them not to.

Qwinn

[Brian]

dan..

Please stay on the CAC story. The MSM will do it's best to ignore it

[misanthropicus]

Dwefending the hologram (i.e. Glibama) - apparently the Saddleback was more devastating for Glibama than normal people see, and the Glibamabots have entered in collective hysteria. As far as McCain cheating at Saddleback - the last time I saw this payola-type of thing was in a "I love Lucy" re-run a few years ago. Those damn' republican! Gretchen, we must tell the children, the republicans even steal story lines from "Lucy" in order to trick the immaculate liberals & progress!

[Fred Beloit]

"Dang, Dan finally came around on McCain. Maybe I can start reading him again."

Oh no. First the return of Harpo, honk, honk, and now the weasel. What have we done to deserve this? (Deserve's got nothing to do with it.)

[this is stupid]

oh, so lying about faith, more like making things up out of whole cloth in order to appear more authentically religious (not to mention cheating on your wife in order to profit financially) is all OK because mccain is a "conservative?"

no wonder our country is going to hell

[Dennis]

In a way, I also hope the left-wing hypocrites push this pathetic attempt to smear McCain into the MSM. But if Obama makes the mistake of choosing confirmed plagiarist Joe Biden as his VP pick, this will end all the silly talk of McCain manufacturing stories for political gain.

But never underestimate the idiocy of LW bloggers; once they get started down a certain path, it's very hard for them to let go, no matter how harmful to their own cause they end up being.

[Queen1]

Well done. Yes, Sullivan has gone around more than one bend lately. I think he is actually a pod-person now. I linked to you on my thoughts on this subject--I think most Americans will file Sullivan et al. under "Things That Make You Go 'Hmmm...'."

Anyway--I also linked to you in the Blog Network. Will check in often! Good work.

[Karl]

And what Sullivan and his ilk miss is that this is doomed to at best fizzle and at worst blow up in their faces for some pretty basic reasons.

Unaccounted for in their narrative of political history is that the reason the SBVT stuff was effective was because it was an attack by military people. And for all of the sturm and drang among political junkies, the real political damage was not done by the medals debate, but by highlighting that Kerry stabbed his fellow soldiers in the back upon his return, smearing them as war criminals, etc.

Andrew Sullivan and the Kos Kidz do not have the sort of standing necessary to make this sort of attack stick. And the Vietam Vets peddling the crap NotYou is peddling here won't get anywhere because McCain did not become an antiwar Leftist upon his return to the US. And unlike Kerry, McCain bears serious scars of his torture -- and refused early release from the Hanoi Hilton -- which make the "propaganda" story seem profoundly petty.

Moreover, having whined about the SBVT for four years already, voters in the middle will see this tack as an act of gross hypocrisy.

Finally, there is a limit to how far the Left can go in trying to question McCain's faith, given that Obama spent two decades in a black liberation theology-based church, getting spiritual guidance from the race-baiting Rev. Wright.

In sum, this story is a tempest in a teapot, more interesting for what it says about the attackers -- who can be glad their bile will not become widely publicized, given that it would harm their cause far more than McCain's.

[DG]

Dan: I'm sympathetic to your criticism of Andrew, but you're overdoing it. Using terms like "f~&/ing insane" and "bat crap crazy" makes you sound like the folks at Daily Kos. Such language weakens the persuasiveness of your arguments just as much as it weakens theirs.

[The Ace]

This demonstrates the current intellectual vacuity of the modern left perfectly:
"Most of you scumbags that hate on queers are secretly closeted. How does your own spunk taste by the way?"

Seriously, thank you. You are the epitome of an Obama voter.

[S. Forbes]

McCain is a hero. Nevertheless, his Christmas Story is questionable and his use of a possibly fabricated story raises questions about what limits his sense of his integrity will place on his campaigning and governing. Sullivan is right to flush out the story. That said -- I hope Stanley Kurtz and others keep pushing for the documents at the Daley Library so we can explore Obama's links to Bill Ayers. Finally, I know its fun to call people names but aren't we all better off to have people like Sullivan and Kurtz raising these issues?

[Spartan112]

"So if I say that New Jersey borders New York, something that's in WikiPedia, that I'm actually plagarizing WikiPedia and not repeating a commonly know *fact*?"

The wording of the two (McCain's statement, and the Wiki entry) is nearly identical. Stating a simple fact is one thing, but reciting a narrative practically verbatim is another altogether. Do us all a favor, enroll in a research methodology class and try to stay awake.

[Truthiness]

Good God, if the responses here from the left are representative, then a good proportion of Obama's lefty rabble are mentally ill. They repeat disproven lies ad nauseum, then wriggle away when pinned on those lies by desperately changing the subject or the context wildly (classic avoidance/denial behavior).

And here I though schizophrenia was only required of Ron Paul followers; its apparent now that its also a prerequisite for being an Obama slime merchant on the internet.

"Not You" and others, you should seek help.

[Michaelangelonio]

What else do you write when your day is spent licking the campaign poster of a Chicago Machine Puppet with no accomplishments that aren't selfish and careerist? Slander a war hero!

[Paul B]

"He directly attacked the credibility of the government of the United States, the soldiers he fought alongside and the American fabric that suggests this nation is run by the people because his stories, while captivating and at times grotesque, were mostly figments of his or other soldiers'/non-soldiers' imaginations."

So you think the government of the United States was "credible" in regards to Vietnam? The Pentagon Papers didn't prove that administration after administration lied to the public about it? Where the rapes, torture, mutilations, and murders comitted by Tiger Force "mostly figments?"

[Gabriel]

Dan, it hurts your cause when you begin by saying that it's beyond the pale to ask if McCain might be lying about his experience for political gain, then follow that up by shrieking about Obama being a terrorist.

[Morgo]

Obama isn't a terrorist. He's a hack Chicago machine puppet who won his first election by voter suppression, had his name attached to a bunch of bills he didn't write, ran virtually unopposed for the US Senate thanks to the Chicago machine, and had it decided for him by his owners that he would be the Clinton killer for the left wing of the party. A big nobody. Zero. Empty suit. No accomplishments.

[Veritas]

The O-man, Barack Hussein Obama, is an eloquently
tailored empty suit. No resume, no accomplishments,
no experience, no original ideas, no understanding of
how the economy works, no understanding of how the
world works, nothing but abstract empty rhetoric
devoid of real substance.

He has no real identity. He is half-white, which he
rejects. The rest of him is mostly Arab, which he
hides but is disclosed by his non-African Arabic
surname and his Arabic first and middle names as a way
to triply proclaim his Arabic parentage to people in
Kenya . Only a small part of him is African Black from
his Luo grandmother, which he pretends he is
exclusively.

What he isn’t, not a genetic drop of, is
‘African-American,’ the descendant of enslaved
Africans brought to America chained in slave ships.
He hasn’t a single ancestor who was a slave. Instead,
his Arab ancestors were slave owners. Slave-trading
was the main Arab business in East Africa for
centuries until the British ended it.

Let that sink in: Obama is not the descendant of
slaves, he is the descendant of slave owners. Thus he
makes the perfect Liberal Messiah.

It’s something Hillary doesn’t understand - how some
complete neophyte came out of the blue and stole the
Dem nomination from her. Obamamania is beyond
politics and reason. It is a true religious cult,
whose adherents reject Christianity yet still believe
in Original Sin, transferring it from the evil of
being human to the evil of being white.

Thus Obama has become the white liberals’ Christ,
offering absolution from the Sin of Being White. There
is no reason or logic behind it, no faults or flaws of
his can diminish it, no arguments Hillary could make
of any kind can be effective against it. The
absurdity of Hypocrisy Clothed In Human Flesh being
their Savior is all the more cause for liberals to
worship him: Credo quia absurdum, I believe it because
it is absurd.

Thank heavens that the voting majority of Americans
remain Christian and are in no desperate need of a
phony savior.

His candidacy is ridiculous and should not be taken
seriously by any thinking American.
Pass this on to every thinking American you know!

[steveH]

ronaldsrevolution;

"McCain was a shit student at west point"

Naval officers are usually more likely to graduate from Annapolis than West Point.

"and one of his first major achievements was being part of Keating 5."

And the Senate Ethics Committee cleared Senators John Glenn and John McCain of having acted improperly.

I suppose you had something resembling a point to make, but it would look a little better if you could do something resembling homework before trying to make a point.

[mj]

When will people acknowledge the big grey elephant in the room? Sullivan has a medical condition that has affected his thought processes, and not for the better.

Posted by: Disgusted

Not true. Sullivan's descent into incomprehension began with Bush announcing support for some measure contrary to Sullivan's position on gay marriage (I think it was the amendment, but it might have been a federal DOMA). Essentially Sullivan decided that merely disagreeing with Bush on the marriage issue wasn't sufficient, he also had to reinterpret his support for Iraq, the WOT, and everything else as well. Not just change to not supporting it (which would have been incomprehensible enough since the two are unrelated), but rather claim that Bush lied us into war, etc. It's not clear to me whether Sullivan felt he needed to do this to re-establish his connections to the left, or if he just went insane because he took it as a personal betrayal. But I read him closely back then and the shift and its source were obvious.

Before this ocurred I thought he would be able to bring many gay-rights supporters mainstream. He was on exactly the right track: gay rights can be very important but you can't allow them to determine your opinion on everthing else. Doing so makes you small because your opinions on the bigger issues are meaningless. Then one day he took the exact stance he had been arguing against for years. Bizarre.

[DenverGregg]

The dishonesty and stupidity shouldn't surprise anyone who has taken more than a second to consider what ideas Andrew Sullivan stands for. It would only be surprising if Andrew Sullivan said anything that didn't vehemently oppose basic tenets of human dignity.

[seekeronos]

"--- Alot of ron's supporters are voting Obama to make sure McCain get's slaughtered. I may do the same. ---"

If you are/were truly a Ron Paul supporter, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that you'd support someone as anti-freedom/anti-liberty as Obama.

The man is a big-government, nanny-statist to the very core of his being, and a rabid socialist who is 120% opposed to anything Dr. Paul had to say. Most Paul supporters I know are split between Dr. Chuck Baldwin or the Libertarian Party's candidate, Bob Barr.

@ "Not You":

"--- Why is it that "Christians" are routinely the most outrageous and prolific liars, anyway? ---"

That very heavily depends upon who you define as "Christian". If your definition is someone who merely claims to be a "Christian", you are probably correct. A great many people name the Name of Christ in vain, to deceive both themselves and others.

But if you are saying that the genuine, Bible-believing, daily dying to self, who are taking up their cross daily, those who are the true followers of Christ are liars, then sir, it is YOU who are a liar, and it is YOU who are DECEIVED.

For if you are not of Christ, then you are of your father, the Devil - a liar from the beginning, and the father of lies.

[Spartan112]

"For if you are not of Christ, then you are of your father, the Devil - a liar from the beginning, and the father of lies."

Sweeet.

[Spartan112]

"Doing so makes you small because your opinions on the bigger issues are meaningless. Then one day he took the exact stance he had been arguing against for years."

Is there a bigger issue than one of the founding principles of our nation? The pursuit of happiness.

[Donna]

Who, as it turns out, didn't remember the date.

Yeah, because everyone who is old enough ought to be able to remember exactly on what date John McCain told them a story in 1971. I was 12 then, and fell out of a tree and broke my arm, but I can't remember the exact date. I guess it couldn't have happened then.

McCain went to the Naval Academy, not "west point."

I really hope Obama picks Biden. You'll have 2 walking gaffe machines on the Dem ticket then. (Kerry would be even better, but we couldn't possibly get that lucky.)

[mj]

Is there a bigger issue than one of the founding principles of our nation? The pursuit of happiness.

Posted by: Spartan112

Yep, Life and liberty. Two founding principles, without which the third cannot exist.

In this case, how many people are being prevented from marrying because of this rule? I know of one from hundreds of people I know well enough to say. Given the demographics and the fact that most gays are perfectly happy in their relationships the number is small. Anyone who lets their position on this issue outweigh everything else shouldn't be taken seriously. If this is the biggest problem we have we should all be jumping for joy.

[Cass]

Methinks Sully had been bogarting Rosie O'Donnell's stash again.

Damn. Doncha just hate it when that happens?

[Boomer]

"McCain was a shit student at west point"

Well, I think I can shed some light on why he was such a shit student at West Point. I have it on good authority that the son of a bitch never went to class once at West Point. And when some whiny, sniveling reporter asked him about it, McCain, in that furiously vesuvial temper of his told the reporter "Well, I didn't have to go to class at West Point, because from 1954 to 1958 I was attending classes at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, MD." Some research into this has revealed that it has a basis in fact, although there is still a great deal of research to be done to determine if he was actually at West Point taking a nap for four years, or whether he did indeed process through the difficult four-year regimen at Annapolis.

Stay tuned for further details.....

[Spartan112]

"Yep, Life and liberty. Two founding principles, without which the third cannot exist.

In this case, how many people are being prevented from marrying because of this rule? I know of one from hundreds of people I know well enough to say. Given the demographics and the fact that most gays are perfectly happy in their relationships the number is small. Anyone who lets their position on this issue outweigh everything else shouldn't be taken seriously. If this is the biggest problem we have we should all be jumping for joy."

How many does it have to be before it's a problem? I live in MA and personally know at least 8 people that have gotten married as a result of the law here and a number of others who have moved to the state because of the positive climate.

I have a question for you, how many people can I own as slaves? I mean if I just own one or two it's not a big deal right? I mean so many others will still be free what's the big deal?

[templar knight]

Hahaha, now gays getting married has taken on the moral equivalence of slavery in the mind of Sparty. I'll say one thing, that old Sparty is a real debater. LOL.

I was going to jump in here and help you boys with these libs, but you've eviserated them, and they are now gathering up their guts. Kinda like what John McCain did to Obama Sunday evening. Carry on!

[SacTownMan]

Okay Dan, what gives? You must have really struck a vein in the troll kingdom for so many new visitors in this thread.

For the regular posters here this is quite a treat. I haven't seen this many witless trolls lingering on a conservative site since Harpo and Lame-O disappeared. The only problem is like Freddy Kruger they keep coming back a little more pissed off than before. We do now have Sparky to pull up the rear (literally) and the Sock Puppet can always be counted on for a few Top 10 Moonbat Talking Points and one line zingers. If he/she ever figures out who he is his Psychiatrist may go out of business!

Barry sucked so bad the trolls are just pissing themselves to explain away his lameness. Just keep trying to question McCain on his war record because that is a sure way to deflect from the real issue.. Barry is a Chicago hack politician whose only campaign tactic is to eliminate the competition instead of concentrating on his own lack of credibility.

Rock On Barry

[Orion]

Well, THIS should be embarrassing:
--------------------
Solzhenitsyn Biographer: Cross-In-Dirt Gulag Story Never Happened

By Greg Sargent - August 19, 2008, 25PM

There's been a ton of buzz on the web for the last day or so -- beginning with this Daily Kos diary -- suggesting that John McCain patterned his story about a Vietamese captor drawing a cross in the dirt before him on a similar episode from Russian novelist Alexander Solzhenitsyn's time in the Soviet gulags.

But it turns out that this episode probably never happened to Solzhenitsyn at all, and according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer it appears nowhere in his published writing. Columbia University professor Michael Scammell, the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode ''never happened,'' and didn't appear in Solzhenitsyn's book, Gulag Archipelago, either.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/solzhenitsyn_biographer_crossi.php
-----------------
LOL. We've all been had by the KOS kiddies, it seems.

[mj]

"How many does it have to be before it's a problem?"

If you're disagreeing with me, the question has to be "How many does it have to be before this issue outweighs everything else? ANSWER: A hell of a lot more. So you know 8. Great. There are 300 million people in this country. It's a lock there are more people wrongly imprisoned than want to marry and can't for this reason. Which is worse, being in prison or not having your marriage recognized by the government?

As for your other asininities, it's obvious why you're trying to change the topic, there's just no avoiding that this is a small issue. If you think gay marriage is the most important topic about which you have an opinion (which you must, since you are defending that it should in fact define all your other positions) I'd say it's a good thing you don't have your own blog.

[SacTownMan]

Sparky says;

"I live in MA and personally know at least 8 people that have gotten married as a result of the law here and a number of others who have moved to the state because of the positive climate."

Congratulations on your new home purchase and recent marriage!

One less fruitcake in California!

[Spartan112]

"aha, now gays getting married has taken on the moral equivalence of slavery in the mind of Sparty. I'll say one thing, that old Sparty is a real debater. LOL."

It was simply an analogy...both relate to our unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. My guess is that if it were any of you being prevented from getting married than it would be a much bigger deal.

My point was in response to the notion that it's somehow no big deal because only a few people were being prevented from getting married. So again, if I'm the only person allowed to own a slave how is that a big deal?

[mj]

Engage the whole argument or none. The issue is whether gay marriage should determine your positions on all other issues.

If you want to say you don't understand the difference between gay marriage and slavery knock yourself out. I'm rooting for the girl, but maybe you'll get lucky and she'll just kick your ass.

[Spartan112]

I do understand the difference, you don't seem to understand the similarities, i.e. they are both civil rights issues. As for whether one issue should decide my stance on others? No. But I do have a right to weigh the value of one issue OVER others do I not? I don't know about you but I would be extremely hard pressed to find a candidate with whom I agreed on every single point.

Don't a great number of people decide their vote based on one or two issues that are of particular importance to them? It just seems to me that Sullivan decided that the one issue in question cut so close that it went to the very nature of how he lives his life. I can't fault him for that. It's a pity that you seem to take pleasure in faulting him for it.

With McCain, if the gay marriage issue weren't enough I suppose his stance on gays in the military, protection for gays in hiring and hate crimes would do the trick unless the homosexual in question had a particularly deep sense of self-loathing.

[Donna]

Swindle can't remember the exact date he heard a story McCain told him in 1971 and that proves he's a liar? Christ Almighty, I broke my arm in 1971, and I remember it very well, but I can't tell you the exact date it happened. Nor can I give you the exact date I lost my virginity, had my first beer or started my first job. Kudos to Not You, who can evidently rattle off milestones of his/her life and provide you with exact dates and expects everyone else to be able to do the same.

Does he think the Vietnamese kindly provided a calendars, pencils, and little gold stars to Swindle and McCain so they could mark birthdays, anniversaries, and holy days of obligation, as well as well especially touching stories they had heard? Just in case McCain ran for president one day and needed Swindle to document, date and time any usable material?

I'll bet much of the time the POWs weren't sure what day of the week it was. But Not Me ain't buying it, no siree! Exact date, damnit!

Obama managed to sit in the Rev. Goddamn America's church for 20 years and he can't remember hearing a single offensive comment during that time, but Swindle and McCain are the liars with the bad memories? Oh, this is too funny.

P.S. McCain went to the US Naval Academy, not "west point." And don't you forget it!

P.P.S. Please let Barry pick Biden - you'd have 2 walking gaffe machines on 1 ticket. The one I'd really love to see picked is Kerry, but nobody gets that lucky.

[mj]

Spartan,

When you reduce issues to the point that gay marriage and slavery are in the same group you've left the relevant range. Why do we punish murder and jaywalking differently? After all, they're both crimes. I understand similarities and differences. Let me know when you catch up.

You do have a right to weigh issues however you want. You don't have the right to change my position and then attack the result, apparently all while expecting me not to notice. I stated that however important you think gay marrige is it should not determine your positions on every other topic. You have taken exception to this. I'm still waiting for your explanation, which apparently you think somehow includes slavery. Or maybe you were just thinking about slavery and Freud took over. I'm surprised there weren't more typos in that case, one handed typing isn't easy.

Your comments about gays and McCain are illuminating, although probably not in the way you intended. Why do you piggeonhole gays? Hate crimes? Are you serious? I point out that focusing on gay rights makes one smaller because your opinion on the bigger issues doesn't matter. And you prove me right by listing your approved reasons why gays shouldn't vote for McCain and they omit the big issues. Are they not allowed to support the candidate whose position on national security they most agree with? What about the economy? No? Hate crimes?

Maybe if you read honestly instead of looking for things to twist around you wouldn't get all confused and accidently prove me right.

[Spartan112]

People can vote how they please of course, but is it usual for people to vote against their personal self interest? I didn't think so.

Oh and I'm keeping up just fine skippy. I put the crimes in the same class because they are both violations of an individuals human/civil rights. You say I went too far in my analogy and yet you compare murder to jaywalking...wow...

The better comparison might me murder to assault. Surely murder is worse but they are both violent crimes. The thing is I don't just look at this as a gay issue, my feeling is that if someone is willing to attack the civil rights of one group what will stop him from doing it to another? Who's next? Blacks? McCain doesn't exactly have a stellar record in that arena. His steadfast opposition to an MLK holiday is disturbing in this age.

Also, isn't a person allowed to believe that McCain might NOT be stronger on national security? Who has been our strongest leader in that regard of the past 30 yrs? Reagan? Tell me stories about his glorious military service...I heard he got a stye from the makeup sponge...ouch.

McCain has showed poor judgment in regards to the war. He beat the drum to go to war in 2003 for W so he's the one I should trust?

He doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on the makeup of the middle east (Iraq and Pakistan share a border?), so guess what? Gay rights is one issue with which I disagree with McCain. I'm much harder pressed to find ones I agree with him on. That's funny though because we used to have some common ground, one of us changed.