I Honestly Can't Believe I'm Reading This

Regardless of what any one American's politics or personal election preference might be, is it lost on people what they are reading if they click into Andrew Sullivan's blog from Memeorandum?

Here is how Swindle describes it to Byron York:

"I vaguely recall that story being told, among other stories."

Convinced? The answer as to why McCain never mentioned this in his first account or for a quarter century since and didn't even recall it when asked to recount memories of three separate Christmases in captivity is dismissed with the usual gambit:

What is quite well known beyond ANY shadow of a doubt is that Senator John McCain spent five years in captivity for serving his country during which time he was brutalized to such a severe extent that he still carries the scars and handicap from that captivity.

What is also well known beyond any shadow of a doubt is that Senator Barack Obama had some form of long-standing tie to an unrepentant domestic terrorist - but we can't know the extent of those ties because the Richard J. Daley Library of the University of Illinois at Chicago is blocking access to the records of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.

And all Andrew Sullivan and a significant number of new media members on the Left care about is whether or not a North Vietnamese prison guard drew a cross in the sand with a stick some 40 years ago?

Sorry, but are you people f~&/ing insane? Do you not have any sense of what country you actually live in today? Do you really not understand why America has rejected your presidential candidates at the ballot box in so many elections over these last forty or so years?

If this is how you intend to present yourself and your arguments from now until Fall, I'd suggest you prepare to lose once again. Turning any good American's stomach with your pathetic, distasteful and ultimately bat crap crazy tactics just ain't no way to win friends, or secure votes.

And if the Atlantic wants to preserve anything like a reputation, it might do well to consider giving Andrew Sullivan a break. Whatever bend he has gone around does not appear to be the kind from which one very easily makes it back.

Comments

[Craig]

Amen. Just further evidence of the depths that Andrew has sunk to. As a former devoted reader (and contributor) of his, I am at the same time horrified and incredulous at his virtually-overnight embrace of the most ridiculous and hateful aspects of Kossian Leftism. It is, and forever will be, a damn shame.

[Mister Snitch!]

You can't blame Andrew! He was in the cone of silence.

[Disgusted]

When will people acknowledge the big grey elephant in the room? Sullivan has a medical condition that has affected his thought processes, and not for the better.

[SacTownMan]

This is just more of the same for the moonbats.

Do they honestly think that by trying to bad mouth a real war hero like John McCain they can make up for the ass whooping Kerry received.

Kerry was a butt shot wanna be and McCain showed honor and code. Concepts Kerry still doesn't get! I hope they keep this up because "the One" is starting to show his true colors and Americans are seeing the rock star for what he is..a socialist!

The "community organizer" is not only out of his league with John McCain he is trying for a job that is "above his pay grade"

[Joe]

I still like Andrew, but this attempt at Swiftboating McCain is going to sink. But since I want McCain to win, I hope he keeps it up! Obama gave some pathetic answers at Saddleback to questions anyone could have anticipated in general. And not many would have noticed if the left had not completely come unglued about it.

[Dave E.]

I used to be a devoted reader of Sullivan also. He's so far around the bend now that the bend must be just a vague and distant memory. It's sad to see that he's become just another troll with a blog.

[Vero]

You know the cool thing about this whole daily Andrew Sullivan bitching routine he does? We get to hear it for 8 more years when McCain wins. As their leader once said "we feel your pain" - Louder whinning please, so we know you really, really mean it this time, ah, not that I care.

[M. Simon]

When will people acknowledge the big grey elephant in the room? Sullivan has a medical condition that has affected his thought processes, and not for the better.

It appears there are a lot on the left with a similar condition.

[Old Trooper]

If they want Christmas tales, interview John Kerry about Christmas in Cambodia.

[paul]

Sullivan kinda jumped the shark when he started writing about foreign affairs, particularly and recently Georgia.

For a long time he has been a bridge to the gap between journalist and blogger, adding legitmacy to the writers on other blogs. I don't agree with many of his views, but in most cases he provides lucid arguments.

His latest foray in foreign policy has been a blight on his career-it was the classic guy, living in an internet bubble(and his mom's garage), focused so much on proving a point-neocons are evil-that he distorted a reality that had been accepted by pretty much every foreign policy expert in existence.

If the damage done to any foreign policy credibility he might be able to fake was not enough, he wants some Swift-Boating done, and it doesn't matter if the guy was in a POW camp getting tortured for 5 and half years.

The dude is coming undone...

[vanderleun]

I am fully expecting, before this is over, for Sullivan to deliver a oenophile's review of Senator Obama's essence.

[Para]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_dementia_complex

[LOL]

your war hero couldn't even beat a bunch of communists, how do you expect him to manage the job of being president?

and as for Obama hanging out with a "terrorist"--I think using that label for a man who vandalized a bunch of property is too much. You really give the Weathermen too much credit if you honestly think that of them. But like all things, it's not what you believe but what you think works. You say nothing because you believe it.

[seekeronos]

Spot on, Para.

Andy S. must have cotched himself a nasty bug when he sought to use his muscley bum to milk his "lovers" he found on barebackers.com or whatever wicked slice of the internets he whored himself on.

[seekeronos]

Weather Underground's stated goal, IIANM, was to overthrow the US gov't, by anyeans possible, no?

Doesn't that at least qualify as insurrection if not terrorism?

[WAL]

"and as for Obama hanging out with a "terrorist"--I think using that label for a man who vandalized a bunch of property is too much. You really give the Weathermen too much credit if you honestly think that of them."

-

Well, lessee...they tried to kill a bunch of people, issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, and Ayers (Obama's friend) summed up his philosophy as:

"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63

but I guess outside of that . . .

[WAL]

BTW, who's Andrew Sullivan?

[Steve J.]

I recall that Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" statement was attacked by the right-wing, so why can't we even question McCain's story?

[WAL]

"I recall that Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia" statement was attacked by the right-wing, so why can't we even question McCain's story?"

-

For starters, because we had abundant evidence Kerry's was false and the evidence indicating McCain lied is about nil. The only thing suggesting it was it's similarity to the Gulag Archipelago - the problem with that being one of his fellow POWs says he told him the story in prison in 1971, two years before the Gulag Archipelago was published.

[Steve J.]

the evidence indicating McCain lied is about nil.M

Why didn't he mention it before he ran for President in 1999?

[E. Ireland]

It's hard to believe that liberals are still pretending that the "swift boating" was unfair, despite the fact that their war "hero" actually slandered the troops in his very high profile testimony to Congress, really committed treason by meeting with the Viet Cong while a USN officer, and really stretched the concept of heroism by collecting 3 purple hearts for 3 scratches in 3 months and then quickly got himself a pass from further combat service. They make themselves risible.

[Fresh Air]

SteveJ--

Kerry was never in Cambodia. He made the whole thing up for a ridiculous speech he delivered on the Senate floor over a decade later.

For the first time, Sen John Kerry, the Democratic presidential challenger, has been left floundering by allegations that he invented a key episode of his decorated wartime service in Vietnam - a central plank of his election platform. . . . the Kerry campaign was left in verbal knots after a new book accused the senator of inventing stories about being sent, illegally, over the border into neutral Cambodia. . . .

In newspaper articles, interviews and at least one Senate speech, Mr Kerry has claimed that he spent Christmas 1968 inside Cambodia, at a time when even the US president was publicly denying that American forces were inside that country.

He has cited the missions as a psychological turning point, when he realised that American leaders were not telling the truth to the world about the war in south-east Asia.

The Kerry campaign responded, initially, that Mr Kerry had always said he was "near" Cambodia. Then a campaign aide said Mr Kerry had been in the Mekong Delta "between" Vietnam and next-door Cambodia - a geographical zone not found on maps, which show the Mekong river running from Cambodia to Vietnam.

Michael Meehan, a Kerry campaign adviser, told ABC Television: "The Mekong Delta consists of the border between Cambodia and Vietnam, so on Christmas Eve in 1968, he was in fact on patrol . . . in the Mekong Delta between Cambodia and Vietnam. He was ambushed, they fired back, he was fired upon from both sides, from the Cambodian side of the border and the Vietnam side during that day in 1968." Daily Telegraph (UK) Aug. 12, 2004

Clear?

[24AheadDotCom]

I generally agree with this post, and while I don't in the least suggest ignoring CAC and the rest of BHO's background, it might be better to encourage people to concentrate on the candidates' policies.

[Fresh Air]

SteveJ--

Not all personal anecdotes from wartime experiences are necessarily used in political campaigns. I worked on the Dole campaign in 1988, and at the time he was very reticent to discuss any of his wartime experience. It wasn't until 1992 that his advisers got him to open up about it more during the campaign. Not all veterans are braggart assholes like Kerry.

[WAL]

"Why didn't he mention it before he ran for President in 1999?"

-

Again, he did - in 1971.

As far as just not discussing it on a regular basis--McCain has a ton of stuff he doesn't discuss on a regular basis. Outside of the refusing to be released early part, the guy just doesn't talk much about himself. For instance, he has one where Bud Day (one of the most decorated pilots of the past half-century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Day) had his arm broken and was in prison with him. So, the Vietnamese decided to put his arm in a bent cast, forcing it to heal crooked and allowing them to taunt him over the fact this would cause him never to fly again.

John McCain walked around with Bud Day picking up twigs on the prison yard and created a new cast for him out of scratch that was straight, so the broken bone could heal straight and he could fly in the future.

Now, I can't recall John McCain ever discussing that story at a public event or in any other venue. In fact, I'm not sure he's discussed it at all. However, Bud Day has mentioned it and backed it up and his integrity is impeccable.

[marks77]

paul is totally correct.

ANDREW SULLIVAN JUMPED THE SHARK.

His blog used to be interesting, but now he talks nonsense. He used to have some rational and intellectual perspective, but now its just dumb.

[WAL]

Bad link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Day

[Chad]

Allow me to expand on 'Fresh Air's' comment in response to Steve J. It is hardly unusual for a politician to exaggerate something during a political campaign. If we assume McCain made this story up, the worst thing doing so is that he scores a couple of voters to his side instead of being among the undecideds. It's hardly a game breaker.

As for Kerry, he used made up stories as the central focus in his effort to pull the U.S. out of Vietnam, if that indeed was his true reason and not just slander the U.S. military as an entry into the political scene. He directly attacked the credibility of the government of the United States, the soldiers he fought alongside and the American fabric that suggests this nation is run by the people because his stories, while captivating and at times grotesque, were mostly figments of his or other soldiers'/non-soldiers' imaginations. Kerry's lies had a direct result in decreased moral within this nation, a perspective of an American criminal code of conduct throughout the world, a decreased sense of fear for the American military among our enemies and, perhaps most dastardly, four disastrous years of Jimmy Carter in a cardigan.

Comparing the two is apples and oranges in my view, irregardless of one's political affiliation.

[tbogg]

Turning any good American's stomach with your pathetic, distasteful and ultimately bat crap crazy tactics just ain't no way to win friends, or secure votes.

So should we just start hating on the coloreds and the homos like you do? Do you think that would be helpful?

[ronaldsrevolution]

I hear what you all are saying but Sullivan has a point which is that Salter and the campaign are pushing the POW stories as a reason to vote for John and as such authenticity is of great importance. Bosnia as a minor example but certainly not on the same level. The fact is that being shot down is not enough to qualify a man to lead the free world, nor is seniority in the US Senate (anybody want Byrd?). McCain was a shit student at west point and one of his first major achievements was being part of Keating 5. And the asshole cheated on his wife because she wasn't pretty anymore. You are all sucking the guys koolaid. Salty?

[ajmalkov]

Ya think maybe one of the reasons why McCain didn't mention his cross in the dirt story when campaigning in 2000 because it would come off as cheesy and manipulative to exploit his captivity in that manner?

He mentioned it on Saturday in response to a specific question, from a pastor in a church.

There are other things he doesn't talk about as well that might happen to help him on the campaign trail, such as his sons' military service. If you don't know his youngest son Jimmy volunteered for the Marines and served in Iraq for years, it's because he never talks about it.

[reallydisgusted]

Disgusted, are you saying that Andrew's HIV affects his thinking? His has more intellectual gravitas in his small right toe than your entire hateful family tree. Most of you scumbags that hate on queers are secretly closeted. How does your own spunk taste by the way?

[DaMav]

It's hard to imagine anything better for John McCain than to have a bunch of whining leftists pissing all over a story of Christian faith and symbolism for an American hero imprisoned in a hellhole in North Vietnam. It is a fervent reminder of the quality of people lined up behind Barrack Obama, and why we do not want to sacrifice our country to their shallow, angry, and morally bankrupt outlook on the world.

These are people who willingly repeat the talking points of terrorist prisoners at Gitmo, reciting them as gospel. Yet with no evidence at all they slam the story told by McCain as false, ridiculing his faith and courage.

More please.

[RBecker]

As a reader of Sullivan for years, here's my theory:
http://theobamamonitor.blogspot.com/2008/05/synchophant-explained.html

A Synchophant Explained
Why is the conservative blogosphere so interested in blogger/pundit Andrew Sullivan’s views and unwavering support for Barack Obama? Others Republicans and conservatives have voiced their support for Obama, yet they get only glancing criticism. I think that the critics remain interested because it is so mystifying that Sullivan, who until the past few years was such a thoughtful and articulate spokesman for gay and conservative views, and his latest opinions seem like they are coming from a different person. In other words, even though he’s become increasingly outside the conservative mainstream, the mainstream can’t explain why this has happened. And since conservative thinkers rarely have major changes in their views, conservatives themselves remain stumped as to what happened to Andrew.

As a gay conservative and long-time reader of Sullivan’s blog, I think that I can shed some light on Andrew’s journey and offer a very plausible explanation of his changed views and support for Obama.

First, a bit of back story on Andrew for Andrew Sullivan was one of the first political bloggers to get popularity and notoriety at the start of the blogging phenonomenon. His unique views as impassioned, well-published, gay conservative drew many to his blog pages. He was a strong supporter of many Bush administration policies – including in the Iraq War.

However, Andrew jumped ship in the build-up to the 2004 Presidential election. While he became increasingly disenchanted with the execution of the Iraq (and eventually came to advocate a pull-out), it was the Bush administration’s support for a Consitutional amendment banning gay marriage that drove him over the edge.

Since that point, Andrew nary has a kind word to say about Bush, the administration, or Republicans in general. He holds his strongest criticism for Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and the President himself.

Then as the 2008 Presidential primary season started, Sullivan became fascinated with Barack Obama. He loves Obama’s generational, racial, and political tonal appeal. Suffice it to say, he buys the Hope, Change, Yes-We-Can stuff hook-line-and-sinker.

Now, Andrew frequently parrots the Obama campaign line to such a point that I wonder if David Axelrod has his fax number. He frequently ends his entries with Obama-ish slogans like “Know hope.”

Every Obama speech is gushed upon. Every Obama gaffe is rationalized and spun to a positive light. He is now a true synchophant.

Conservatives are bemused by Andrew’s progression from conservative to Obama-ite. Some say he never was conservative. Others say he is gay-obsessed. Still others have tried to explain him as over-emotional. All have a point.

But these explanations leave out the core of Andrew Sullivan’s blog – that it is deeply personal. It is a daily dump of whatever is on his mind and in his heart. He has said as much himself on several occasions. So why has Sullivan progressed from Reaganite to Obama-ite? One has to consider Andrew’s personal life.

Now, before I start this, I will admit that I don’t know Andrew (we have never met), but as I have stated above, I have read his blog for some time and he describes much of his personal life there. What follows is just an extrapolation.

One must first know that Andrew has lived for years in Washington, D.C. – a very liberal, Democratic city despite the presence of Republicans in power. To be a (1) conservative, (2) gay, and (3) a supporter of Republican presidents puts oneself in an extreme minority position. I know this because I was one with these same positions as well in D.C. during the same time period as Andrew.

For myself, it meant knowing that almost all of my gay friends and neighbors held political views diametrically opposed to mine. So I largely kept them to myself and hidden from them. For years now, Andrew has had no such luxury. He has been well-known for his public writings for years. I am quite certain that almost all of his friends, neighbors, and acquaintances knew of his politic views. This could not have been easy for him.

Why? Because I know the D.C. gay scene having lived among it for seven years, and it is nothing if not a pit of vipers. There coldness and self-serving nature is legendary throughout the U.S. gay community. I am quite certain that Andrew was broadly ostracized and likely black-balled for his politics in the 80’s and 90’s. Keeping civil with them – let alone maintaining friends and relationships – could not have been easy.

Then in 2004, when Bush announced his support for the Defense of Marriage Consitutional amendment, I’m sure that the social pressure on Andrew was ratcheted up another notch given his past support for the President. So Andrew, who was soon to be betrothed to a man himself, decided that was it time to dump Bush and, indeed, dump the Republicans.

So, his criticism of the Iraq War increased and soon he had nothing nice to say about the Republicans. I am sympathetic to much of this argument. But why did Andrew not go off and become an independent conservative (like I have done) and instead throw his lot in with the most liberal U.S. Senator and the most left-leaning of all of the main presidential candidates?

First, to become an independent conservative voice would have, by and large, marginalized Sullivan’s voice. Politics have become so polarized that only people who get any listen are those firmly in the left’s Democratic or the right’s Republican camps. Sullivan couldn’t be a Joe Liebermann – after all, he has to make a living. He needs an audience.
So, that explains why he would go over to the left, but why Obama and not Hillary Clinton. Well, simply put, Sullivan hates her. His wrath against her is at least as great as it is for Bush. Why? He decries, not so much the policies of the Clintons, but the tone and style of Clintons – the politics of personal destruction that meant if your not on our side, you must be personally destroyed. Andrew probably felt himself to be on a hit list and likely was seen as the enemy my many in the gay D.C. scene. Again, for him to tolerate this, could not have been easy. So supporting Hillary Clinton was never an option as she was the source of much of his past problems.

That leaves Obama and McCain. And while Sullivan has written many nice things about McCain, they pale in comparison to the glowing things he has said about Obama. To Andrew, Obama represents a fresh start and an end to the Clintons. No more divisiveness. Unity. Know hope. I am quite sure that this is what Andrew wants in his own life.

Now married, Andrew can enjoy personal tranquility among family and friends without the constant pain of being branded a “Bush supporter.” I am certain his new views win almost universal support in his social circle. His life is perhaps better now.

Am I merely hypothesizing? Of course. But a more logical explanation of Andrew Sullivan’s conversion, I have not heard.

Is he selling out his principles for personal tranquility? In many, many ways, yes. But who am I to judge, if that’s the deal he wants to make. What I can criticize is his willingness to try to square the circles of his logic in supporting Obama. They’re often ridiculous and as vacuous as the candidate himself. But I leave detailing of that for other posts.

[WAL]

"The fact is that being shot down is not enough to qualify a man to lead the free world, nor is seniority in the US Senate (anybody want Byrd?). McCain was a shit student at west point and one of his first major achievements was being part of Keating 5. And the asshole cheated on his wife because she wasn't pretty anymore."

-

Ronald, you can complain all you want about John McCain's credentials - the problem is that no matter how much you attack them, they're still 5 times whatever Obama has.

For McCain's military experience - would you like me to compare it to Obama's?

If you think a couple decades in the Senate isn't enough experience - somehow Obama's 4 years qualifies?

Would you like to exchange McCain's cheating 3 decades ago for Obama doing coke more recently?

Our guy showed balls, character, and patriotism to a much greater extent than, chances are, you or I would have. What the hell does your guy have? That he was a community organizer?

[Orion]

A KOS poster (paragons of virtue all!) noticed similarities between McCain's story and one Solzhenitsyn wrote of in his 1973 book. I first heard the story in the 1962 film Barrabas, where a fellow slave drew the sign of Pisces in the dirt to show Barrabas's Christian friend Sahek that he, too, was a Christian. So I suppose this means that Solzhenitsyn cribbed the story from that.

When the early Christians were driven out of Jerusalem by the Sanhedrin they were persecuted mercilessly. St. Paul got his start in life as a Christian-hunter for the Jewish authorities, remember? Went by Saul back then. When the Christians were driven underground they developed a series of secret signs and hand signals to identify themselves to each other. Drawing the sign of the fish or of the Cross were very common. Whenever and whereever Christians are persecuted in this world they fall back on their old habits. Before the French were driven out of Vietnam there were Catholic communities all over the place. The ones up North had to go to ground after the Communists took over. It's entirely reasonable that an NVA guard would remember his Catholic upbringing and signal a fellow Christian with the sign of the cross drawn in the dirt. It's entirely reasonable that a fellow Christian in a Soviet gulag would remember the old ways of signalling other Christians being persecuted. Only one of the ignorant, barely-literate KOS kiddies would try to make something out of this.

[ronaldsrevolution]

WAL: I was with Paul. McCain can kiss my ass, unless he picks Perot as his VP (JK). First of all, I like that you concede McCain has very little to show when it comes to real gravitas. Again, being a POW does not qualify you to lead the free world.

Obama did coke as a teen, much earlier than Bush did so try and make an issue of it. Oliver Stone will beat you to that punch buddy.

When Obama chooses Biden McCain will appear a small and helpless midget in comparison.

By the way, do you really want a guy who doesn't understand mideast geography with his finger on the button? Really?

Deal with it. Our shadow convention will blow the RNC suck fest out of the water in terms of enthusiasm. Alot of ron's supporters are voting Obama to make sure McCain get's slaughtered. I may do the same.

[WAL]

"First of all, I like that you concede McCain has very little to show when it comes to real gravitas."

-

Where the hell do I do that? - I just say he has far more than Obama's.

And, also (God help me for getting into this), but what the hell does Paul have to show when it comes to real gravitas?

-

"Obama did coke as a teen, much earlier than Bush did so try and make an issue of it. Oliver Stone will beat you to that punch buddy."

-

And you've gotten the impression I plan on defending Bush doing coke . . . why?

-

"When Obama chooses Biden McCain will appear a small and helpless midget in comparison."

-

I'm currently agnostic.

If Obama chooses Biden, I will firmly believe there's a god.

-

"By the way, do you really want a guy who doesn't understand mideast geography with his finger on the button? Really?"

-

Yeah, mispeaking...

Kinda like the guy who visited the 57 states in the U.S.

[redstatesman]

I think alot of this was made worse when York got Salter on the record. Why did McCain respond to this? He gave it legs which would have otherwise run the lefty bloggers off a cliff. Sullivan just found quaotes contradicting the fellow POW.

Sullivan is approaching this the way I approach trials, with facts and deduction. I don't know for sure but it's starting to look like less of a hail mary.

If this is true our guy is toast.

[Not You]

McCain lied about the cross in the dirt. It never happened. He stole the anecdote from Solzhenitsyn, just as many "Christian" ministers have done over the years. By the way, as a POW, McCain made numerous communist propaganda movies. And his military buddies called him "Ace" McCain, because as a pilot he destroyed five American aircraft.

Orson Swindle? Give me a break. He's one of the Swiftboat Veterans for Lies. Just like any Christian wingnut, there is no lie the man wouldn't tell.

[Mars vs Hollywood]

The difference the Left would like to ignore is this: these charges are not being made by people who served with McCain, which was not the case with Kerry.

But I really, really, hope they keep at it. It's going to work out wonderfully. :)

[Not You]

By the way, I noticed that Swiftliar Swindle (appropriate name) was able to "remember" the cross story in a photographic fashion, but not the date. I wonder why that might be.

[Not You]

Why is it that "Christians" are routinely the most outrageous and prolific liars, anyway? Seeing as how the right wing is tapped into the "Christian" establishment, maybe the people on this blog could tell us about that. Whether it's Bush lying about the pretexts for war with Iraq, or "Pastor" Warren lying about some so-called "cone of silence," if a "Christian" says it, you can pretty safely bet that it's a lie.

What's that all about, anyway?

[WAL]

"It never happened. He stole the anecdote from Solzhenitsyn, just as many "Christian" ministers have done over the years."

-

Dude, again - he told the story two year before Solzhenitsyn's book was published.

-

"By the way, as a POW, McCain made numerous communist propaganda movies."

-

There was one propaganda movie McCain - along with every the prisoners at the Hanoi Hilton - was involved in.

On one Christmas Eve they gathered all the prisoners together to show how well they were being treated. They indicated to them to maintain strict silence as they were being videotaped (and, for that matter, being threatened with machine guns).

The prisoners kept quiet.

McCain proceeded to shout "F--K YOU, YOU SON OF A B---CHES" and list all the bad treatment.

So...yes, he once participated in a propaganda video.

[Not You]

Dude, again - he told the story two year before Solzhenitsyn's book was published.

This is what a wingnut Swiftliar has said. Who, as it turns out, didn't remember the date. This contrived "memory" is not matched by other information, such as McCain's own repeated recollections in the past. Sorry, but your boy told a nice, big whopping (but all too typical) Christian lie.

As for McCain's "loyalty," see what Vietnam veterans say about McCain and how he stonewalled the release of documents about MIAs because they also contained information about McCain's treason in Vietnam.

[Not You]

For the Vietnam veterans testimony:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g

The only reason you people aren't screaming bloody murder over this is because you place the interests of the Republican Party above your own country.

[WAL]

My friend, Not You - if your capacity for thought were slightly higher, you would have learned that the Swiftboat Veterans were a group strictly made up of people who had served with John Kerry.

Orson Swindle did not serve with John Kerry.

Everybody posting on this thread knows Orson Swindle did not serve with John Kerry.

Ergo, everybody posting on this thread knows you're full of s--t.

Sorry.

[Orion]

"When Obama chooses Biden McCain will appear a small and helpless midget in comparison."

This the same Joe Biden who plagerized another politician's speech and had to drop out of the 1988 presidential campaign in embarrassment? Unlike KOS's wildass accusations against McCain, Biden is a PROVEN plagiarzer:

"A proven accusation of plagiarism can have serious repercussions for a candidate's political ambitions. Just ask Joe Biden. His borrowing of a British politician's campaign speech is perhaps the most famous instance of political plagiarism, illustrating both the dangers of unacknowledged language lifting as well as the extent to which one's enemies will go to torpedo their opponents' chances for success.

http://www.famousplagiarists.com/politics.htm

According to the KOS "standard", Biden should be tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail. Fat chance of them ever calling for that, of course.

Biden has other problems. He recently criticized Obama for rejecting public funding earlier this summer. In a televised interview he started by trying to make excuses for Obama but had to add, "In terms of undermining the public financing idea for everyone, it doesn't help." If Obama picks him expect that clip to be played over and over by the McCain campaign. With footnotes.

Oh, and don't forget Biden's "clean" crack back during the primary season. He spent the next two weeks issuing one grovelling apology after another but I'm not entirely sure Obama ever really forgave him.

[LeftistsSuckandSwallow]

"Why is it that "Christians" are routinely the most outrageous and prolific liars, anyway? Seeing as how the right wing is tapped into the "Christian" establishment, maybe the people on this blog could tell us about that. Whether it's Bush lying about the pretexts for war with Iraq, or "Pastor" Warren lying about some so-called "cone of silence," if a "Christian" says it, you can pretty safely bet that it's a lie.

What's that all about, anyway?"

Pretty intersting premise. The world is so fortunate to have benefitted from the honesty of atheistic left-wingers. Nice little 100 million-plus death count you degenerates racked up in the 20th century. But maybe you can just look at it as having eliminated lots and lots of carbon footprints while you listen to emo music and beat off to your Che Guevara poster.

[docweasel]

Dang, Dan finally came around on McCain. Maybe I can start reading him again.