Carlin Now As Dead As His Career

There was actually a time when I liked George Carlin - back in the 70's when he was fresh. The man did have a great creative mind and talent for comedy. Whenever I saw him in recent years, he was always spouting off about political garbage.

Not no mo.

Comments

[jharp]

"The only way men (and women) can be saved is for them to repent of their sins, turn to Jesus for forgiveness, and make Him Lord of their lives."

Just curious, seeker.

Do you believe more than half the population of the earth (non christians) is going to burn for an eternity in hell?

[Worst President Ever]

""Joy" on the other hand, can only come from the filling of the soul in Christ with the Holy Spirit."

The belief that certain emotions are only experienced by believers in god is utter, holier-than-thou BS.

[chris]

"And don't you worry about li'l ole me. I can take care of my family well enough."

That's what they all say. Perhaps when you commune with the Almighty in your bathroom/library/laundry room you should ask Him why he made you such a chump.

[seekeronos]

"--- Do you believe more than half the population of the earth (non christians) is going to burn for an eternity in hell? ---"

I do not know - I can't speak for them. It is truly a matter between them and God. Generally speaking, the message Christ has for us is that He is the way for us to go to the Father; the only mediator between God and Man. (John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5)

Jesus said that "many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22:14)

We live in an age where knowledge is increased, and nearly anyone who wants to have the Word of God preserved in print in their own language can have a copy - especially in the developed world.

We live in a time where there has been the greatest outreach of missionaries to both the developing world and the developed world; where television and video and internet can also reach billions of people.

Therefore, this question is contingent upon how many of those billions have heard the full counsel of God concerning His Son, and his plan for Salvation.

"-----
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
-----"
(Jeremiah 29:11-13, KJV)

What I do know is that God is very longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish, that all should come to salvation. (1 Peter 3:9)

I believe that this means that God gives grace to the unborn dead (aborted children) and children under a certain age who do not know good from evil yet (this may vary with the child) as well as insane persons and other persons whose disability prevents them from making a conscious choice to repent and follow God.

And concerning people who are so remote from civilization or without access to God's Word, He has left certain obvious hints as to His existence throughout His creation, which points back to Him: the glory of the stars in the heavens, the majestic heights of mountains, the power of the storms and seas, to name but a few. That, and the basic Noahide Law written into the hearts of all the sons and daughters of Noah, whom God gave commandment concerning the replenishment of this world with Adam's race: the basic knowledge of right vs. wrong.

But concerning people who out-and-out reject God, knowing what He desires of them, I'd say that their choice will bear dreadful witness against them on Judgment Day, when they hear the Judge intone these words against them:

"----- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels... -----" (Matthew 25:41, KJV)

God's grace is sufficient for all of us, should we choose to accept it... which is why the question of salvation should be one you consider for yourself, personally.

After you have that assurance of salvation, then and only then can we work together in the Lord's harvest to make sure that many souls may be prayerfully saved from the devil's cruel grasp, snatched away from the gates of Hell.

[seekeronos]

(chris) : "--- That's what they all say. Perhaps when you commune with the Almighty in your bathroom/library/laundry room you should ask Him why he made you such a chump. ---"

No thanks, I'll pass on that.

Instead, I'll thank Him for saving me, a filthy sinful wretch, from an eternity in Hell, and ask Him to create in me a greater desire to see the lost souls around me saved, and a holy boldness to tell them how to be saved.

------------------------------------

(WPE, quoting me) : "--- 'Joy on the other hand, can only come from the filling of the soul in Christ with the Holy Spirit'.

The belief that certain emotions are only experienced by believers in god is utter, holier-than-thou BS.
---"

Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. There are a little under a dozen such fruits of the Holy Spirit, by which you can tell believers apart from the unbelievers.

You (as an unbeliever) may have moments of a wholesome happiness, such as spending time with your loved ones, or getting satisfaction out of working in your garden or practicing kenjutstu, or watching your portfolios give a good return on your investments.

Perhaps it is something that is a close, yet still pale imitation of what is truly God-granted Joy: for the Joy of the Lord can be found in both good and in adverse circumstances. (Nehemiah 8:10, Phillipians 4:11)

Contrast that with the more common amusement or dissipation of the flesh such as can be found in things like drunkeness, sexual immorality, gluttony, and other things like that.

It is a very fleeting "happiness", and usually one that is all too often followed quickly by emptiness or regret.

[jharp]

"I do not know - I can't speak for them."

Well then I'll tell you. More than half of the world is non Christian and according to what I was taught the only salvation is through Jesus Christ.

A very tough break for those born where christianity is not taught. You'd think the guy would give some kind of clue when the consequences are for an eternity.

[seekeronos]

"--- A very tough break for those born where christianity is not taught. You'd think the guy would give some kind of clue when the consequences are for an eternity. ---"

But He has, through His Word, and continues to do so through people He has called to Himself.

"----- The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. -----" (2 Peter 3:9, KJV)

In very brief sum of what I already wrote, for those born where Christianity is not taught, who have never heard the word of Christ, I believe that God will give them grace to hear His words and grant them a chance to receive Jesus as their Lord.

The real question is for those of you who *know* what God has said regarding salvation, and continue to spurn His Word as foolishness or as rubbish.

How shall you escape judgment, if you keep rejecting His mercy?

[templar knight]

It's quite obvious from reading these posts that the studies showing liberals to be hateful, selfish, loveless and mean are quite accurate. Of course, I didn't need the benefit of several academic studies to convince me of that.

[Worst President Ever]

"Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. There are a little under a dozen such fruits of the Holy Spirit, by which you can tell believers apart from the unbelievers."

More holier than thou BS. You try to define any joy experienced by non-believers as either illusory or passing "happiness" resulting from carnal pleasures. There are millions of non-believers derive real joy - just as great as anything you experience - from the good they do in their communities and their relations with friends and family.

So you can peer into a person's soul and tell whether or not they believe. That's a bit hard to, uh, believe.

[templar knight]

Hahaha, keep the pressure on, seek. Jimmah and Boob are floundering, and even pretending to be indignant as they struggle with the issue of salvation, and where they are likely to spend eternity. I sense these two know exactly where they are headed as they try to convince themselves and others that God is non-existant.

[chris]

Did you come across any studies that showed that attending private school doesn't mean that your kid will amount to anything?

[templar knight]

Nope.

[chris]

Keep looking.

[seekeronos]

"--- So you can peer into a person's soul and tell whether or not they believe. That's a bit hard to, uh, believe. ---"

I never claimed to know what others believe, beyond what they actually tell me, or how they actually _act_.

Beyond that, I might be able to with a measure of godly discernment, to compare people's deeds and words with the Word of God...

...And by that I mean, are they showing the fruits of the spirit?

"----- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. -----" (Galatioans 5:22-23, KJV)

Or are they walking in the works of the flesh?

"-----
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
-----"
(Galatians 5:19-21, KJV)

I do not stand as your judge, or as judge over anyone else.

But the Word of God, His Name is Jesus, the Prince of Peace and Everlasting King, He shall be your Righteous Judge.

Or He can be your Advocate before the Throne of Grace, who takes away all your sins with His precious, spotless blood.

[templar knight]

No, chris/Boob, you are the one who needs to look for something, perhaps something that will lift you out of your miserable condition. You would criticize an innocent child who you do not know. Who needs a study, you are visable proof of the absolute bankrupcy of liberals and the Left. You and your kind are utterly beneath contempt. I'm sure you and your liberal friends attain true "Joy" through hate. Thanks for posting here so everyone can see.

[jharp]

"But He has, through His Word, and continues to do so through people He has called to Himself."

Only through the words of men and he's got more false prophets out there than I have blades of grass in yard.

"The real question is for those of you who *know* what God has said regarding salvation, and continue to spurn His Word as foolishness or as rubbish."

No one. No one knows what God has said though alot of folks know what some men have said God has said.

Let me be clear, Mr Seeker, I've got no problem with you practicing whatever religion you choose. The problem I have is when you want to use my tax dollars to promote it. And also to use the words of the bible, written by a man, to deny equal rights to American citizens.

[seekeronos]

"--- Only through the words of men and he's got more false prophets out there than I have blades of grass in yard. ---"

In the words of Christ:

"----- ... Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. -----" (Matthew 22:29, KJV)

First of all, any false prophets are NOT from the Most High God, but those are messengers of Satan. Such do not speak from the preserved Words of God, but seek to twist God's words, perverting them and distorting them through corrupt translations and and deliberate obfuscation and heretical teaching.

Jesus even warned us that in the end days, men would turn aside from the simple truths of God's inerrant and infallible Word:

"-----
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
-----"
(2 Timothy 4:3-4, KJV)

Turned aside to fables, such as "evolution", and "secular humanism", and "relativism" --- the unholy trinity of what passes for socialist dogma. I declare to you, that socialism is a false religion, and that Marx and Engels and Trotsky and Lenin and E.V. Debs and Stephen Jay Gould were your false teachers and false prophets who have lead you astray as Balaam ever did Israel to play the harlot with the Midianites.

And certainly there are apostates - false sheep who are inwardly ravening wolves who prey upon the Church by turning aside men and women from the simplicity of the Gospel over to damnable lies and harlotries with the world, teaching that to draw in people, that those churches must become like the world.

The Apostle John gives us clear warning that in the last days many liars and deceivers and false (imitations) christs would arise, teaching that Jesus was not God come in the flesh:

"----- For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. -----" (2 John 1:7, KJV)

HOWEVER...

We can certainly trust in God's preserved Word, and if we have God's Holy Spirit dwelling in us, He will teach us in all things, leading us to all truth in God's Word.

As for the blades of grass in your yard, here is what the Lord, the Living and True God, has to say about that as well:

"-----
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
-----"
(Isaiah 40:5-8, KJV)

Which brings us to your next point:

"--- (quoting me) "The real question is for those of you who *know* what God has said regarding salvation, and continue to spurn His Word as foolishness or as rubbish."

No one. No one knows what God has said though a lot of folks know what some men have said God has said. ---"

Ah, but Satan is the father of lies, and he loves to confuse an argument, especially with his original talking point: Questioning God's Word.

If people refuse to believe that God spoke and moved men to record His words, it is because they would rather receive the devil's old, tired lies instead:

"-----
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
-----"
(John 8:43-44, KJV)

Because of your unwillingness to trust God even for a mere instant, you shut Him out entirely; therefore, you obey your master who holds you in the bondage of sin (even as he once held me, before I learned of God's grace through Jesus).

But the devil has been at his game for far, far longer than you or I have ever been; when he beguiled the woman, the weaker vessel into thinking she could become as a god(dess), and Adam in his turn acquiescing to the rule of his wife by sinning rather than rebuking the sin of his wife... thus we all fell under the bondage of sin:

"-----
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil (subtle/clever/devious) than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

-----"
(Genesis 3:1, 4-5, KJV)

Therefore, I declare to you that God is not a liar, nor are any of His Words false; they are Faithful and True" (Revelation 19:11-13). Moreover, His testimony is true, and was recorded by faithful, God-fearing and God-loving people:

"-----
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
-----"
(2 Peter 1:20-21, KJV)

God does not want for you (or for anyone else) to remain this way; today is the day that you could be saved.

Call upon Him now, in a day when He shall hear you; if you would truly desire to know the Living and True God, call upon His Name - Jesus - and ask Him to show Himself to you. I promise to you that He WILL show Himself to you.

Like you, I was a skeptic for a number of years (in fact, most of my adult life, despite being raised as a "good Catholic"). Yet, God did not give up trying to reach me through many people and circumstances. Finally, He set this verse before me:

"----- Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. -----" (Jeremiah 33:3, KJV)

In a time of great personal/spiritual crisis, I _did_ call upon Him, and He did keep His promise: He showed me His salvation through faith by grace in Christ.

Years later, God gave me a second testimony, through another Christian worker who had a much different background than I, yet had also asked God (through the same verse, in fact) to reveal Himself, and that man was saved from his addictions.

God's word proves itself true over and over again, and it will prove true for you too, if you will trust in Him.

I exhort you to do exactly that: place your trust in Him.

"----- ... behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. -----" (2 Corinthians 6:2b, KJV)

Last point:

"--- Let me be clear, Mr Seeker, I've got no problem with you practicing whatever religion you choose. The problem I have is when you want to use my tax dollars to promote it. And also to use the words of the bible, written by a man, to deny equal rights to American citizens. ---"

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I want to spend tax money to indoctrinate or promote my faith in Christ. I am firmly convinced that as far as adults go, they have every right to believe or doubt as they see fit.

As for the second item, by which I *think* you are referring to gay marriage in particular based upon the rhetoric most often used with the phrase "deny equal rights to American citizens"... well, my opinion is this:

Marriage is not a constitutional right. It is however, an institution designed by, and granted by God. Let the states determine, and have final say in the matter within their own jurisdictions. Or be more progressive yet, and privatize marriage - revert it back to being a contract between two loving individuals without state or federal intervention beyond certifying that both parties are of age and sound judgment to enter into a contract.

At some point, governments saw an opportunity to monetize this institution as well as gain control and a say over who may marry whom, a development that came about in the Middle Ages as serfs once had to gain their manor lord's permission to marry. And even until the recent past (~200 years ago) churches had final say in certifying the marriages before God and the community of witnesses, and the state was merely a record-keeper or a witness thereto.

As for the LGBT angle - well, if our morality as a nation is so far gone, if our foundations are so ruined and rotted away by so-called "moral relativism" so as to smile upon sodomite marriage, then so be it: rest assured that if this nation embraces LGBT marriages on a wide scale, our judgment and certain dissolution as a nation is at hand.

God has seldom permitted a nation heavily populated with sodomites and pederasts and those who wink at it to endure for very long. Which is why the glory of Rome, Parthia, and Alexandrian Greece are in the dust of centuries past.

So, in sum, my answer to the LGBT marriage issue is to leave it to the states to decide, just like the Constitution says things like that should be decided.

Though I would rather men and women marry as is pleasing to God, God has allowed us all free will to chosee whether or not to live for Him and die to self, or to indulge ourselves and ignore God to our own eternal peril.

[jharp]

"I'm not sure where you got the idea that I want to spend tax money to indoctrinate or promote my faith in Christ."

Pardon me for grouping you with the Christians who do have that idea. An example is in my state, Indiana, the taxpayers foot the bill for the specialty license plate "In God We Trust".

"Let the states determine, and have final say in the matter within their own jurisdictions."

Don't think I agree but a point well taken.

"Or be more progressive yet, and privatize marriage - revert it back to being a contract between two loving individuals without state or federal intervention beyond certifying that both parties are of age and sound judgment to enter into a contract."

A well thought out response. I think I agree.

Peace to you seeker.

[Anne]

How much do the Indiana taxpayers pay for In God We Trust Plate? Is it the same price as the regular plate? Does it cost more to manufacture? How much do the registrants pay for each plate? How is the taxpayer involved?

[jharp]

"How much do the Indiana taxpayers pay for In God We Trust Plate?

About $3.60. Times, I think about 400,000 plates, so about $1.4 million.

"Is it the same price as the regular plate?"

Yes.

"Does it cost more to manufacture?"

Yes. It costs the taxpayers about $3.60 per plate.

"How much do the registrants pay for each plate?"

Can't remember offhand but it ain't cheap. A few hundred roughly.

"How is the taxpayer involved?"

The taxpayer subsidizes the difference in cost between the standard plate and the plate that says "In God We Trust"

[Anne]

So, the IGWT plate costs $3.60 more to manufacture than the regular plate?

[Anne]

Who authorized this plate? How much is the yearly registration fee in Indiana? Is the cost of the plate included in the registration fee?

[jharp]

Anne,

Yes, about that.

And I forgot to mention the taxpayers are also paying the cost to defend the lawsuit against the state of Indiana.

[jharp]

Who authorized this plate?

The state legislature authorized it. It was proposed by Woody Burton (I think)

How much is the yearly registration fee in Indiana?

A lot. Roughly a few hundred bucks.

Is the cost of the plate included in the registration fee?

For the standard plate and the IGWT plate the answer is yes. Other specialty plates run about $75 more (roughly).

[Anne]

What lawsuit is that?
Which taxpayer money is involved, is it property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, or is it taxes which only motorists pay.
Is there a place where I can look this up?

[jharp]

Anne,

Try www.indystar.com for the details on the lawsuit.

A plate with IGWT costs $3.60 more to produce than the standard plate. Purchasers of the IGWT plate pay the same as those issued the standard plate.

The Indian Bureau of Motor Vehicles makes up the difference.

[jharp]

Here is lots of stuff. You should learn to use google.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=indiana%2Bigwt%2Blicense+plates&btnG=Google+Search

[seekeronos]

"--- An example is in my state, Indiana, the taxpayers foot the bill for the specialty license plate "In God We Trust". ---"

I can't speak to the pricing/subsidization scheme for vanity/organizational plates in Indiana, but here in NY, they run about $45 for the initial registration and $225/year for renewal. It is quite the racket.

As for "In God We Trust", I don't see that as something to get too worked up over, seeing as that phrase is on most of our national coinage... which, in a rather roundabout way, is also taxpayer funded.

But I reckon that's just me. Among the plethora of specialty license plates NY offers, the closest thing we have to anything tangentially referencing religion are the Knights of Columbus plates.

That any state would put that phrase on its license plates is a (pleasant) surprise, in that I have more or less resigned myself to the idea that America is in an ever-deepening spiral toward apostasy, as has been prophesied by our Lord Jesus that the whole world would be in shortly before His return. (This is what tempers my response about marriage - that particular paradigm will change substantially with the rise of the next generation, much to my chagrin... and it also marks the closing days before the return of Jesus the Messiah, who spoke of the end of days being as like the "days of Noah". Pretty wicked stuff going on then, too).

Now in my opinion, the "In God We trust" is fairly innocuous and part of our "unofficial civil religion" that from the earliest times of our Republic, was enshrined in the writings of the Founding Fathers - not as a religion per se, but as a form by which government could address the person of the Almighty as acknowledged by us in a time when America was more deeply faithful to its Christian roots.

If the Indiana DMV were to start subsidizing the stamping of plates with verses from the Bible or Koran or the Hindu Vedas or Wiccan runes on them, I could see room for a reasonable complaint.

Coming back to the federalism idea though, that is something for y'all Indianans (sp?) to suss out amongst each other. State's Rights and all that good stuff: and if a good number of Indianans want to have that phrase on their plates, I'd say that it might be a long time before those plates diasppear.

[jharp]

Seek,

For a guy who's against government intrusions into our lives and against big government generally I am surprised you want the government to get involved in your religion.

Though I guess, like most, as long as it's your religion they are promoting it's OK.

I'm 100% against it as are my Christian friends. Religion isn't something to use as a license plate slogan. It's between a man and his God and if one feels that strongly about stating his views, friggin pay for it yourself. Don't ding Uncle Sam for it.

[Spartan112]

Dan, Carlin has more talent dead then you could ever hope to have alive.

[Anne]

Well, JHarp, I did the search as you suggested and I found out that the ACLU lost their suit, which wasn't about religion at all. The ACLU was complaining that the Environmental plate had an extra fee attached to it and they wanted the IGWT plate to also have an extra fee.

Also, I found out that there is no difference, or a minimal difference of 50 cents, in the price of the manufacturing of these In God We Trust plates.

You are the one who brought this subject up, I can't imagine why I had to do the research when you could have explained all of this yourself when you were asked about it.

[seekeronos]

"--- Seek,

For a guy who's against government intrusions into our lives and against big government generally I am surprised you want the government to get involved in your religion.

Though I guess, like most, as long as it's your religion they are promoting it's OK. ---"

First, a typo correction on my previous post: the annual renewal cost on the vanity/organization plats is $25/year, not $225. Ha ha, that would be a bit steep even by Manhattanite standards.

As for the plates, it is a non-issue for me, beyond the issue of subsidies for the plates. The taxpayers shouldn't have to bear the bulk of the cost of printing any vanity or specialized plates beyond handicapped plates (dunno if IN uses them, they are common here in NYS).

And you're right: if they were printing Koran verses or Wiccan invocations on the plates, I'd be a bit steamed over it.

But the "In God We Trust" is, as I said, an innocuous phrase found on the very coins of US money in our pockets that we carry about every day. It is at best a simple acknowledgment of Deity along pretty much the same lines that the (mostly Deist) Founding Fathers used in their everyday speech and correspondence. It is a secular statement, and is not even found in the Bible: if Christians wanted to express their idea of trust from a Biblical standpoint, they would put the folowing verse:

"----- Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. -----" (Proverbs 3:5-6, KJV)

That's quite long and rather direct in its focus. On the other hand, "In God We Trust" is only a simple affirmation, and need not be constrained to the God of the Bible. It can refer to the (little "g") "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) who is the devil, to whom has been given dominion over this world system until Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom.

Even taken a ridiculous step further, the end of secular humanism teaches that man can become his own "god", his own final authority, much to the grief of everyone involved, for imperfect and sinful humans who become as "gods" are very, very dangerous individuals. Just ask Joe Stalin, who was very much a "god" in Russia and in his "divine" (crazed) judgment, smote over 50M Russians.

All told, I am unperturbed by the issue, as it doesn't touch me -- though if I were an Indianan and saw that the tax to make specialty plates was burdensome, I might agitate against it. In NYS, much more than $1.4M is spent in a single day by the knuckleheads in Albany, much of it on NYC.

Notwithstanding NYS being among the highest-taxing states in the Union, I probably wouldn't miss it among the many other rabbit-brained taxes we have to pay. But I reckon that same $1.4M may be much more significant in IN... I can't say, as I do not know IN demographics well enough to make an educated guess on the matter.

And speaking of demographics, what percentage of Indianans are devout Christians/evangelicals who would most likely support the subsidizing of these plates? Chances are a good many folks do actually like these plates and aren't bothered by paying the extra $3.60 at all.

But I do agree with you on this at the very least: the cost of making and getting specialty license plates (regardless of meaning or credo) should be entirely borne by the people seeking such specialized plates.

[seekeronos]

"--- You are the one who brought this subject up, I can't imagine why I had to do the research when you could have explained all of this yourself when you were asked about it. ---"

Anne, this would suggest to me that he _really_ isn't that steamed over it. Perhaps a divisive argument for its own sake?

Again, the IGWT motto on our currency and coinage, among other things, was a product of the 1950s, along with the Knights of Columbus pressuring Congress around that same time to add the "One Nation under God..." clause to the Pledge of Allegiance.

The ACLU and similar groups like to jawbone about that one every other few years as well. It is only a matter of time until they finally get their way, I think, give the general trend toward godlessness this nation is on.

Or it may remain a non-issue, where the reference to "God" is replaced in its implicit meaning to Lucifer, during the final, end-times Apostasy where Antichrist and the One World Religion (where all remaining faiths are channeled into Luciferianism, which will naturally accommodate every religious idea except for the truth).

[Anne]

Seekeronos,
He/she (JHarp) worded the comment in such a way as to imply that Indiana was pushing religion on people and forcing others (taxpayers) to pay for it. Also implied was that a lawsuit was brought against the state for using taxpayer dollars for religious purposes.

[seekeronos]

So basically, he has made something of a straw man argument.

As far as the government's usage of IGWT and similar verbiage on government issue, here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on what the SCOTUS has said on such usage, as a form of our "ceremonial deism" observed:

"----
The first use of the term in a Supreme Court opinion is in Justice Brennan's dissenting opinion in Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984).

...I would suggest that such practices as the designation of "In God We Trust" as our national motto, or the references to God contained in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag can best be understood, in Dean Rostow's apt phrase, as a form a "ceremonial deism," protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.[emphasis added, citations omitted]

In Elk Grove Unified School District et al v. Newdow, 542 U.S. 1 (2004). Justice O'Connor, concurring in the opinion, invoked the term in her analysis of the nature of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, saying in part

There are no de minimis violations of the Constitution -- no constitutional harms so slight that the courts are obliged to ignore them. Given the values that the Establishment Clause was meant to serve, however, I believe that government can, in a discrete category of cases, acknowledge or refer to the divine without offending the Constitution. This category of "ceremonial deism" most clearly encompasses such things as the national motto ("In God We Trust"), religious references in traditional patriotic songs such as The Star-Spangled Banner, and the words with which the Marshal of this Court opens each of its sessions ("God save the United States and this honorable Court"). These references are not minor trespasses upon the Establishment Clause to which I turn a blind eye. Instead, their history, character, and context prevent them from being constitutional violations at all.[emphasis added, citations omitted]
----"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_deism

[templar knight]

Sorry to say, Anne, but propaganda and disinformation is the common practice of liberals on this blog. Most of their rhetoric rarely stands up to diligent research. Just like Islamollama calling Imus a conservative. More disinformation.

[IslamoLlama]

"-- Well, JHarp, I did the search as you suggested and I found out that the ACLU lost their suit, which wasn't about religion at all. The ACLU was complaining that the Environmental plate had an extra fee attached to it and they wanted the IGWT plate to also have an extra fee.

Also, I found out that there is no difference, or a minimal difference of 50 cents, in the price of the manufacturing of these In God We Trust plates. --"

The ACLU was pushing against a government favoring of one organization - IGWTers - over another - Environmentalists. The Indiana license plate system charged a fee for one plate but not the other. What was the difference between the two plates? One expressed a religious belief. The other did not. How does that not make the issue about religion?

"-- Sorry to say, Anne, but propaganda and disinformation is the common practice of liberals on this blog. --"

Gwah? Are you still insisting that when a religious license plate receives a state-sponsored discount that any other license plate would not receive, its not a religious issue? That getting screwed on a nominal fee by the state government is totally within the bounds of the law? Or is there something I'm missing?

Maybe this is just another opportunity for TK to wax whiny about lie-bruls, without regard to any logical consistency.

And the nominal manufacturing fee simply raises how ridiculous the system was. If it only costs $.50 extra for specialty plates, why stick tax payers with the bill every time an IGWT plate gets printed? Why the difference? Just even everything up and no one has a reason to complain. There's no freedom of speech issue here - you can stick anything you want on your plates - and there's no government favoritism getting handed out.

[Anne]

Islamollama
The ACLU suit had nothing to do with religion, although some think the green movement is a religion unto itself. Special groups in Indiana pay a fee for their special plates, the fee goes to a fund for the group. There does not seem to be a fund for the In God We Trust people unless maybe Indiana would like to have each person contribute the fee to a religious institution of their choice.

I was unable to determine if the plates actually cost more to manufacture than the old standard Indiana plates. I read that someone said the difference was 50 cents.

I also read that over 1 million people took the IGWT plates. Since those people are also taxpayers then I see it as a wash for them.

I asked JHarp where the taxpayer money comes from to pay for the $3.60 difference that he/she claimed. Does it come from the driving population only, or do the non-drivers subsidize license plates, if, in fact, the difference is $3.60.
The ACLU suit makes no mention of this difference in their suit.

[jharp]

Seek,

"As for the plates, it is a non-issue for me, beyond the issue of subsidies for the plates."

The subsidies for the plates are exactly and the only issue. Stop subsidizing them and it's a closed book.

[jharp]

"I would suggest that such practices as the designation of "In God We Trust" as our national motto"

In God We Trust replaced our original motto E Pluribus Unum (from many one) in the 50's. I think it sucks. Many Americans don't trust in God. But we are all one from many.

[jharp]

"He/she (JHarp) worded the comment in such a way as to imply that Indiana was pushing religion on people and forcing others (taxpayers) to pay for it."

They are forcing taxpayers to pay for the extra cost of the IGWT plates.

"Also implied was that a lawsuit was brought against the state for using taxpayer dollars for religious purposes."

That is exactly what the lawsuit is about.

And the lawsuit is still pending. At taxpayer expense. Though a judge denied a motion for a summary judgment. (ending the practice without going to trial)

[jharp]

"I also read that over 1 million people took the IGWT plates. Since those people are also taxpayers then I see it as a wash for them."

No, it's not a wash. It's a benefit they receive by forcing taxpayers that don't want to pay for the specialty plate.

How about this notion. You want a specialty plate? Pay for the goddam thing yourself.

[jharp]

"Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you ...and he needs your money!
-- George Carlin

[seekeronos]

"--- Many Americans don't trust in God. But we are all one from many. ---"

"Many" is not necessarily "most". I know you didn't explicitly say so, but a reader might get the idea that is what you mean.

This recent piece here by the Seattle Times suggests that most Americans in fact, acknowledge some form of belief in God (a wide base though, this includes Buddhists and other believers in the non-Judaeo-Christian faiths).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008013920_religion24m.html

[seekeronos]

"--- How about this notion. You want a specialty plate? Pay for the ******* thing yourself. ---"

That's our practice here in NY, and it is agreeable to me.

I'm too cheap to shell out additional cash for a fancy plate. If I really wanted to make a statement, I can always drop $1.50 on a bumper sticker or two.

[seekeronos]

On G. Carlin:

He refused to believe in "invisible sky men", i.e. God.

He (Carlin) is probably regretting his decision as he is consumed forever and ever by fire which he cannot see, and by worms which forever eat away at him and never die.

"----- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. -----" (Revelation 20:15, KJV)

[jharp]

"--- How about this notion. You want a specialty plate? Pay for the ******* thing yourself. ---"

That's our practice here in NY, and it is agreeable to me.

That is exactly what the whole thing is about. And the religious kooks in my state insist on having their IGWT plates subsidized.

[jharp]

"Many" is not necessarily "most". I know you didn't explicitly say so, but a reader might get the idea that is what you mean.

I meant what I said. Many. And it's true. Many Americans don't trust in God.

Having IGWT as our motto excludes many. E Puribus Unum excludes no one.

[jharp]

"He refused to believe in "invisible sky men", i.e. God."

I don't think you understand. You don't choose to believe or not believe.

You either believe or you don't.

Don't you think the non believers would like to believe? After all, heaven sounds pretty good compared to being worm food.

[Anne]

I read this as the ACLU complaining about the IGWT plates not being "specialty plates" that one has to pay an additional fee for

Indiana Judge Dismisses ACLU Challenge, Upholds 'God' License Plate

Friday, April 18, 2008

o

INDIANAPOLIS — A judge has upheld the issuance of Indiana license plates bearing the message "In God We Trust," dismissing a constitutional challenge by the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana.

Marion Superior Court Judge Gary L. Miller wrote in a 13-page opinion that the plates were comparable to standard plates issued by the Bureau of Motor Vehicles and were created specifically as such by the Legislature.

"Courts are not to second-guess the Indiana General Assembly when it comes to calculations of this sort," Miller wrote, contrasting the `In God We Trust' plates with other specialty plates that require the payment of administrative fees.

Miller said the issuance of the plates did not violate the section of the Indiana Constitution that forbids the Legislature from granting special privileges or immunities not available to all citizens.

The ruling, issued April 10, denies a motion for summary judgment in the suit by the ACLU on behalf of Mark E. Studler, an Allen County resident who has an Environmental Trust plate for which he had to pay extra fees.

Ken Falk, legal director of the ACLU of Indiana, said Thursday the ruling would be appealed to the Indiana Court of Appeals.

"We're obviously disappointed," Falk said. "It's our position still that the differential treatment afforded between the environmental plate and the `In God We Trust' plate ... is unconstitutional, that the Legislature doesn't have the power to say the `In God We Trust' plate is free whereas the environmental plate carries an administrative fee.

"We're disappointed but we will continue to maintain our legal argument," Falk said.

The ACLU must file a notice of appeal within 30 days of the court's ruling.

The lawsuit claimed the BMV gave preferential treatment to motorists wanting the plates, which also feature the U.S. flag, because they don't have to pay the $15 administrative fee that the agency collects on sales of most other Indiana specialty plates.

The 2006 legislation creating the plates specified the state could charge no more for the "In God We Trust" plates than for the standard plates.

BMV Commissioner Ron Stiver said Thursday more than 1.6 million people have selected the "In God We Trust" plate since it became available in January 2007 as one of more than 75 options for motorists.

"The BMV will continue its policy to offer all plate designs without promoting any one license plate design over another and will continue to offer the IGWT plate design at no additional charge, as outlined by the Indiana General Assembly," Stiver said.

Republican state Rep. Woody Burton of Greenwood, who sponsored the bill to create the plate, said he was pleased with the court ruling and confident it would withstand an appeal.

"When we wrote this law we wrote it as a standard license plate costing no extra money — we deliberately wrote it that way," Burton said, adding that it has been very popular among Hoosiers