A New Problem For Obama?

Update: As of now, there's been much speculation and linkage as regards Obama's Great Uncle. Nothing I have seen confirms his middle initial as "T," as opposed to "W." And a CT Payne someone sent info on is deceased. That would seem to disqualify him. Also, S&L has exchanged correspondence with a site claiming to support Obama's position. The emails make the site seem dubious, at best. If I see something substantive that changes the equation, like Obama giving up a full name, etc - I'll update. At least for now, Obama's claim is in doubt. But then this is a guy who claimed his Grandfather enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor, when he actually enlisted months later.

Evidently the Senator doesn't only speak well ... he speaks "fast," as they say. And I believe he also included those wrong facts in his book. Given the media passing on all of his gaffes, if not downright lies, he is increasingly looking like the Affirmative Action candidate. And I don't believe the majority of Americans favor that type of system for electing a president.

And Mr. Kitchell’s helpful reply:

Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Good day

Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div

I have since been sent this followup email:

From: Mark Kitchell [mailto:markkitchell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Steve Gilbert
Subject: Re: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?

I don’t claim to represent anyone. You are the one who came to my son and I asking for information.

Please spend ample time chasing down the lies fed to you by chickenhawks Bush & Co. Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.

Okay, so we have supposedly learned that it was Obama's Great Uncle that liberated a sub-section of Buchenwald, not an uncle at Auschwitz. But if sources are correct and unless there's some arcane military history in his favor, Obama still has a problem.

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

Charles W. Payne of Kansas, with a similar birth era, served in the Navy during WWII.

What Obama's campaign released via first link above states he served in the Infantry. I assume it's possible the records are wrong, or he changed branches. But I'm unaware of that as a standard practice. Perhaps it happened during WWII for manpower reasons? Otherwise, Obama's Great Uncle would seem to have done most of his marching and liberating while at sea.

Information about the infantry division that Obama’s great uncle was a part of that took part in the liberation of a sub-camp of the Buchenwald concentration camp in Nazi German:

Comments

[jharp]

I think this entire brouhaha has been quite a good thing for a candidate that I'd like to win.

I had no idea Senator Obama comes from a family with such a rich military history.

I sure hope others voters noticed.

And thanks for bringing it up.

[Robbie]

Obama did have a Great Great Uncle Charles T Payne that died in 1930. This is listed in his geneology info. He had one Great Uncle Charles W Payne. I would assume this Charles W. Payne was in the Navy and most probably the Uncle in question. This would mean he did not serve in the 89th Infantry the DNC claims. I just don't like anyone taking credit for another mans service. As for WW2, most American males of draft age served.Rosie the Rivetor ring a beel? Thousands upon thousands of American Sons and Fathers still lie in graves in France, never to come home. Those are the Veteran Heroes who I hold a special spot for. My Grandfather came home, and he did not hide in the attic for six months. I dunno what to believe on Obama's story.

[Gmax]

apparently Obama had two great uncles on his mother's side of the family. Jon, the younger of the two apparently is only slightly older than Obama mother. But he confirms that his older brother by 8 years Charles of Chicago Ill served in the Army and brought back photos from Buchenwald. See prestopundit I believe for links.

[Worst President Ever]

Looks like an ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) epidemic breaking out. It's gonna be a long eight years for all you folks.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/27/obama-campaign-acknowledges-concentration-camp-name-mistake/

Jon Payne, Obama’s maternal great uncle, told CNN that his older brother Charles returned from the war with photographs of concentration camps but did not want to talk about his experiences. Payne, 71, said he was unsure if his brother — who is 83 and still living in Chicago — took the photographs himself.

[Johnny Coelacanth]

"I am starting to get the feeling that something else is in play here."

Hah! Ya think? That pervasive smell? It's bullshit, and you're all up to your ears in it. Have fun, you crazy kids. See you in November.

[free patriot]

can't take a hint ???

when a Veteran tells you to crawl back under the rock you crawled out from under, it is obvioius to most people that you have committed an error that reflects shame upon you, your mother, and your entire family

when you shame your mother and your family, it is customary to cease and desist the embarrasing action

stop shaming your family in the face of America's military veterans

are you twits too stupid to figure this out ???

keep this up and the rock wont have anything to do with you disgusting slimeballs either

[scottmclellan]

Wow, you guys are a bunch of desperate morons! Enjoy the Wilderness. Bring a compass!

[Sally Frank]

Two comments:
1. Obama is making these statements about family members and WWII to make him seem more patriotic and a friend of Jewish people (since he says his great-uncle helped liberate a Nazi concentration camp).
2. Obama is now trying to promote the white side of his family to appeal to middle-class white voters. Would he dare bring up that his family members on his father´s side were Muslims or the (possbily not so positive) work/actions they did while living and working non-democratic African govts? What military did his African uncles and grandparents fight for and against?

Anything a candidate says is open for investigation and the truth found out. Since Obama tries to bring out the positive things of one side of the family to make him look better, then the press should investigate both sides of the family to see what he does not want us to see.

[Comrade Red Sheep of Obama]

YES fellow comrades!

scottmclellan: named after one of the most inept generals of the War of Southern Independence, you are a bright light for our great revolutionary battle to liberate the oppressed workers of America!

free patriot: yes, fellow comrade who knows all about slimy things under rocks!

Johnny Coelacanth: with your bold words, you make mighty and fierce strikes against capitalist dogs who will soon be as rare as the fishie you are named for!

Worst President Ever: O terrible president! How I want my lambs to grow up to be just like you, Jimmy Carter! Long live your legacy of high inflation and economic weakness!

[Southern Values]

I am, what you wingnuts so eloquently call on this site, a “moonbat, lefty troll”. I believe the definition of that is someone you disagree with but whose coherent argument you can’t refute on facts, so let’s employ the only political tacit we know – call them a name ( i.e. identity politics ).

The following text was taken from the embedded link:
Speaking in New Mexico on Memorial Day, Obama said a great-uncle had helped to liberate the Auschwitz death camp at the end of World War II. “I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps,” Obama said (a YouTube clip of the remarks quickly went viral online).
He continued: “And the story in my family is that when he came home, he just went into the attic, and he didn’t leave the house for six months. All right? Now, obviously something had affected him deeply, but at the time, there just weren’t the kinds of facilities to help somebody work through that kind of pain.”
That may be a fact, the RNC noted gleefully — but only if Obama’s uncle had served in the Red Army of Joseph Stalin, which liberated Auschwitz on Jan. 27, 1945.
Obama’s campaign said yesterday that he had erred in naming the camp but not in describing the role of his great-uncle, who partook in the liberation of Buchenwald.
That’s it. That’s the whole story. Obama said his uncle had liberated one Nazi concentration camp, when in fact, his uncle had liberated a different Nazi concentration camp. Obama got the name of the camp wrong. There was no obvious intention to deceive anyone, a presidential candidate simply misidentified the specific camp his mother’s brother liberated. An innocent mistake, barely worth raising an eyebrow over.
And yet, Republicans instantly turned the Outrage Machine to 11, as if Obama had claimed to have liberated Buchenwald himself.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/28/obamas-uncle-and-an-extreme-example-of-molehill-politics/#more-29644

There you have it.

[Southern Values]

By the way Comrade Red Sheep of Obama

Are you trying to be funny or is it in you nature to be stupid.
( I know Forest – “ Stupid is what stupid does “ )

[Thom]

Hey, take his email address down.

[chris]

Scott McClellan was featured for the 1st 45 minutes of the Today Show this am. 45 minutes of him airing your beloved leader's dirty laundry and that stooge Dan Bartlett trying to make excuses. 45 minutes!

That 92 year old McSame guy is looking even better.

[jharp]

"Looks like Dan and company are to be eating crow for dinner tonight.

Now do the right thing and admit the mistake, apologize, and move on.

Oh, and next time do a little fact checking before attacking our next President."

So what's is going to be? An apology? Pretend it never happened?

Continue the attacks with no evidence?

[SMB]

"Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Good day"

PWNED!

[Lala]

Southern Values,

In 2002 Obama said that his grandfather liberated Auschwitz and Treblinka.

[New ridiculousness]

You Riehltards just can't help but make a mockery of yourselves. You've now sunk to arguing which Nazi camps are truly bad and which could have been liberated by a bunch of pu$$ies. Keep it up, please!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Wow, this discussion is getting incoherent.

[reality-based]

really, you folks are making yourselves into laughing-stocks now.

You have been well and truly smacked down by an authoritative source who participated in ACTUAL combat - unlike all you brave 101st fighting keyboarders.

The ethical thing to do would be to admit your mistake and apologize. OR at least, be SOME kind of a man and link to or publish the WWII vet's smackdown of your silliness on your front page.

oh sorry - I brought up ethics - I forgot who I was talking to.

AS a previous commenter said - why don't you devote your impressive research skills to finding either the Iraqi WMD or Osama Bin Ladedn - since your heroic combat-avoiding, National Guard Service skipping, cool-costume-wearing hero never managed to find either.

You do realize that, since this was posted on some liberal blogs, literally thousands and thousands of people - the sane, ethical, reality-based ones, anyway - are pointing and laughing at you?

Guffaw, Guffaw - the loony wingnuts are at it again.

[chris]

This may be funnier than 'Macaca Wins!'. Certainly close.

[Comrade Red Sheep of Obama]

"By the way Comrade Red Sheep of Obama

Are you trying to be funny or is it in you nature to be stupid.
( I know Forest – “ Stupid is what stupid does “ )"

O most noble warrior for the socialist cause, Southern Vulvas!

I never, ever joke. My friend Liberal Sheep may, but not I.

Carry on, brave soldier, for the cause of V.I. Lenin, defender of the workers!

[seekeronos]

"--- really, you folks are making yourselves into laughing-stocks now.

You have been well and truly smacked down by an authoritative source who participated in ACTUAL combat - unlike all you brave 101st fighting keyboarders. ---"

Not to pick nits, but that purported smackdown from the veterans Kitchell (a father and son team) who run that memorial site was to the owner of the blog "Sweetness & Light":

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/a-query-to-the-89th-divisions-website

Dan may not have been clear enough in pointing that out.

As for Messrs. Kitchell and their particular rudeness in answering Mr. Gilbert's inquiry, well, that is between him and them. Whatever Messrs. Kitchell may think about the Iraq war or their role in WW2, it in no way should be construed as a blanket opinion of what all vets of his generation may "feel", and you liberals are as much to laugh at for taking a crotchety response to what appears to have been an open and legitimate question concerning their knowledge of a particular member of their unit's involvement in the liberation of Ohrdruf work camp.

And yes, it was a extermination-by-overwork work camp in keeping with Nazi doctrine.

The fact remains, however, that Mr. Charles W. Payne did *not* liberate Auschwitz or Treblinka or Sobibor or Buchenwald proper.

Nor is there substantive evidence that Mr. Charles W. Payne was in fact, a member of this unit, barring any forthcoming and verifiable revelation that either of these two men on the 89ID roster was that selfsame Mr. Charles W. Payne:

Pfc Payne, C. T. /355thInf
Pfc Payne, W. C. /354th

[seekeronos]

jharp said:

"--- Oh, and next time do a little fact checking before attacking our next President. ---"

Indeed, that is EXACTLY what has been going on here.

And we are not "attacking" him, but rather, the "truthiness" of his words.

[We are all born with the same abilities]

You want it one way.... but it's the other.
Stop spreading lies.

[Chuck]

As they say in GhostBusters on the Lab door.

VECKMAN !!
ROT IN HELL !!

[Cpeterka]

Tonight, EVERYONE say a prayer for all the Uncle's, Aunt's, Dad's, Mom's, Grandfather's, and Grandmother's from the Greatest Generation who saved our asses by fighting in whatever capacity in World War II.

They are all heroes !!

[jeremy]

This is the sickest, dumbest thing I've seen on teh intertubes in a long, long time. Wow, you think you're going to win with hate again this year? You do realize that you have become the party of hate? Yes? Not only are you going to lose but you will lose twice because you sold your stinking soul to defend a candidate that supports a war that was built on lies - ask Bush's mouthpiece. You guys have already sunk so low that you are making apologies for the Nazis. You claim to be the party of patriotism. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

CRAWL. BACK. UNDER. THE. ROCK. YOU. CAME. FROM.

[Southern Values]

Seek –
I rarely agree with you, however, I have noticed in your posting a fine attention to detail, accuracy as you believe it and specificity in your writing to the thread of conversation. Your last post clarified the exact components of Obama’s gaff, but further indicated we liberals presented a crotchety response to the clarification effort. For all liberals in the intertubes, let me apologize. We’re kind of ornery because we still have this desire to discuss the real issues facing this country.

[JPB]

From CQ Polifact (URL)
"That leaves the matter of whether Obama's great uncle really served in that Army unit at that time.

The Obama campaign did not provide any documentation to confirm that Charles T. Payne, 83, served in the 89th Infantry Division in April 1945. And we wanted more than their word.

Although we were not able to reach Payne directly, Payne's son, Richard Payne, said his father "definitely served in the 89th Infantry Division" and confirmed that Obama's account was substantially accurate, except for identifying the wrong concentration camp. Richard Payne declined to say anything further.

Mark Kitchell, who maintains a Web site dedicated to the 89th Infantry Division, said he was able to locate a list of servicemen that includes a Pfc. C. T. Payne who served in the K Company of the 355th Infantry Regiment of the 89th Infantry Division. The list included only the initials for first names.

The 355th Infantry Regimen was the one that liberated Ohrdruf, Kitchell said. Kitchell, the son of 89th veteran Raymond E. Kitchell, obtained the list from the official Division History book, written shortly after the war.

Finally, the National Personnel Records Center, an operation of the federal government's National Archives and Records Administration, put this question to rest.

Researchers confirmed to PolitiFact that Army personnel records for Payne would have been destroyed in a 1973 fire that consumed many such archives, but they dug up a "Morning Report" dated April 11, 1945, showing Pfc. Charles T. Payne was assigned to the 355th Regiment Infantry, Company K. The Records Center provided a copy of the report. A faxed copy provided to PolitiFact was legible enough for us to make out Payne's information, but the faxed photocopy of the record is too grainy to be of use if posted here."
------------

[The Other Steve]

"Here's your man. He's contributed money to Obama multiple times, and he's 60+"

Are you planning on checking his countertops?

[jharp]

seeker,

jharp said:

"--- Oh, and next time do a little fact checking before attacking our next President. ---"

Indeed, that is EXACTLY what has been going on here."

You missed the key word "BEFORE"

"And we are not "attacking" him, but rather, the "truthiness" of his words."

"Evidently the Senator doesn't only speak well ... he speaks "fast,"

And I'm sure accusing the Senator of speaking "fast" was intended as a compliment.

[joeyess]

hey boys! How's it feel to get smacked down by a real veteran? You're idiots. Steve, Dan, the whole bunch of you. Before you call me a DFH, I'll have you know that my father served in WW2. He flew 25 missions on a B-17 as a ball-turret gunner.
roughly half of which were unescorted over enemy airspace. He survived it. He doesn't speak much of it.

Unlike you chickenhawks that only dream of serving your country and have fawning man-crushes on every soldier that ever served, my father and I both disdain this war. The lies that led to it and the lies that continue it's course. Lies that you embrace and propagate.

Enjoy your alternate universe, assholes. You deserve nothing better.

In other words:

You got smacked down, pwned, owned and tanned by a man in his 80's. Here's a link to prove my case if anyone here is interested in the truth. The rest of you? Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/29/12757/9330/971/524828

Before you dismiss the link because it routes you to the home of the Great Orange Satan, let me assure you that there are links in the post that point you to a little thing that we here in the reality-based world refer to as "facts".

[joeyess]

are we moderating now? how democratic of you.

[joeyess]

pussies

[joeyess]

pussies

[seekeronos]

"--- Seek –
I rarely agree with you, however, I have noticed in your posting a fine attention to detail, accuracy as you believe it and specificity in your writing to the thread of conversation. Your last post clarified the exact components of Obama’s gaff, but further indicated we liberals presented a crotchety response to the clarification effort. For all liberals in the intertubes, let me apologize. We’re kind of ornery because we still have this desire to discuss the real issues facing this country.
---"

Fair enough. :)

And while we will likely not see eye to eye on most things, I am glad to see that this caper over Obama's gaffe is being put to rest, as evidence indeed comes to light that Mr. C.T. Payne has in fact served with the 89ID, and that Sen. Obama's statement, though somewhat inaccurate on account of the name of the concentration camp liberated, was not spoken with a purpose to deceive.

As touching on the PTSD that Mr. Payne (and likely many others) suffered, I think we may be able to agree that the fighting men of that generation were otherwise unconditioned to the horrors they saw upon liberating those camps...

For us, the fact that these camps existed is undeniable, and while the horrors that went on behnd their gates and within their fences is unthinkably horrible, yet we have had the advantage of hindsight and memory to steel ourselves for those macabre glimpses of pure and unbridled human evil.

Those soldiers had very little idea what was waiting for them as they marched toward the gates of those camps, and it goes well beyond the pale of the more "mundane" slaughter (if the horror of war can be so described) faced in battle.

[jharp]

joeyess,

Thanks for the link to dailykos. All should take the time to read it.

This line stuck out at me.

"For goodness' sake, Obama's great uncle helped liberate a concentration camp. That is something to applaud, not to question."

You guys are shameful. Except Willie.

[Lanshark]

There's also not much of a controversy about Obama's grandfather, Stanley Dunham. Obama said he enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much. In fact Mr. Dunham enlisted a month after Pearl Harbor. Due to a transcription error from the much quoted blog Talk Left, many blogs reported it as June 18th, 1942, when in fact the enlistment date was January 18th, 1942. See the mea culpa from Redstate.com:

http://redstate.com/stories/elections/2008/the_downside_of_being_catholic

As for Obama's great uncle, many in the blogosphere have not comported themselves well, and that's putting it mildly. So convinced that Obama's a liar, many on right especially jumped to conclusions and in the process dishonored themselves.

[Doesntmatter]

Do you ever wonder how your politics have left you arguing with 80 year-old WWII veterans about what they saw in Nazi concentration camps? If it were me, that would cause quite a bit of introspection about my direction in life. But, that's just me.

[mike]

"Do you ever wonder how your politics have left you arguing with 80 year-old WWII veterans about what they saw in Nazi concentration camps? If it were me, that would cause quite a bit of introspection about my direction in life. But, that's just me."

post of the week.

[tpodr]

In case anyone is wondering how bad things were when the Allies liberated Camp Ohrdruf, have a look:

http://www.archive.org/details/1945-04-26_Nazi_Murder_Mills

"First actual newsreel pictures of atrocities in Nazi murder camps. Helpless prisoners tortured to death by a bestial enemy...Here Is The Truth"

[Cervantes]

This thread is a classic example of counter-propaganda at work.

The article is right. There is a problem. None of the evidence submitted in favor of Mr. Obama is compelling. The efforts made on the name and initials can only convince garrulous persons. And the similarities between the grandfather and uncle stories do not help Mr. Obama's anticipated line of defence.

Most likely the real story is the grandfather's one, and there might have been an uncle in the attic, who knows. Mr. Obama never saw him probably. The attic stay must have occurred after the uncle's return after Berlin or Tokyo capitulation, in 1945-1946, sixteeen years before Mr. Obama's birth. Mr. Obama would have heard about the grandfather's story over and over, it goes almost without saying.

A local newspaper search (not on Internet) will give you the information required to identify the initial and get the story straight. Quite a time-consuming job, and that's why counter-propaganda works so well. Fast in fast out.

[Riehl Worlder]

I agree -- CRAWL BACK UNDER THE ROCK YOU CRAWLED OUT FROM UNDER. THE PRESIDENT'S MOUTHPIECE JUST ADMITTED THAT THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE LIED ABOUT TAKING US TO WAR -- OVER 4,00 AMERICAN SOLDIERS DEAD, THOUSANDS MAIMED AND WOUNDED -- AND YOU WANT TO QUIBBLE OVER WHAT NAZI DEATH CAMP OBAMA'S GRANDFATHER, OR GREAT UNCLE, LIBERATED. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR NETHER PARTS AND START ACTING LIKE AN AMERICAN.

[templar knight]

You toads on the Left set the stage for these kinds of arguments. That you complain about what is being said says more about you than anything else. Ever heard of the word hypocrite? It describes you Leftists to a tee. Anytime "King George" has made a gaff, you assholes have been all over it, with the gaffes being proof positive that George is stupid. When your mulatto messiah makes the same kind of gaffes, you want to argue about it. I say you can't have it both ways.

[Riehl Worlder]

Hey Templar Knight (boy, are you full of yourself), how can you tell when "King George" has made a gaff? The man is a gaff. Why don't all you right wing nuts pack up and move to Uruguay with the rest of the left over Nazis?

[templar knight]

RW, you dumb ass, I'm not quibbling about what was done by who or whom in WWII, but the gaffes your messiah is making, and the fact that HE doesn't check his facts very well. YOU would be all over the "Chimperor" if he made the same mistakes. Now, you may return to your sewer.

[Steve V]

Sally -- you rightwingers keep trying to portray Obama as a USA-hating foreigner, so why shouldn't he tell stories about his American heritage? What's the problem, are you upset that Obama has the temerity to have a proud American history?

[jharp]

templar,

"You toads on the Left set the stage for these kinds of arguments."

A page right out of George Bush's playbook. It's always someone else's fault. I'm sure you were just relying on the best information out there and everyone else thought it was true.

I'm surprised at this out of you of all posters. I'd have thought being in business for yourself you would not be an excuse maker.

[Billy Joe]

Here's what Eisenhower had to say about the Ohrdruf concentration camp:

"when I came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency. I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it was my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand in case there ever was at home the belief or the assumption that the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda. I would like every American unit not actually in the front line to see this place. We are told that the American soldier doesn't know what he is fighting for. Now, at least, he will know what he is fighting against."

Omar Bradley was more graphic:

"The smell of death overwhelmed us even before we passed through the stockade. More than 3,200 emanciated bodies had been flung into shallow graves. Others lay in the streets where they had fallen. Lice crawled over the yellow skin of their sharp bony frames." He then related how starving prisoners had apparently torn out the entrails of the dead for food.

[SarahW]

"Do you ever wonder how your politics have left you arguing with 80 year-old WWII veterans about what they saw in Nazi concentration camps? If it were me, that would cause quite a bit of introspection about my direction in life. But, that's just me."

Say what? Verifying the extent to which Obama fudged or puffed up a family history is not an argument with the Veteran or what he saw. If you want to blame anyone for trying to check out the details of Obama's anecdotes, blame Obama for including impossible specific details in the stories he uses to shine up his own buckles.