A New Problem For Obama?

Update: As of now, there's been much speculation and linkage as regards Obama's Great Uncle. Nothing I have seen confirms his middle initial as "T," as opposed to "W." And a CT Payne someone sent info on is deceased. That would seem to disqualify him. Also, S&L has exchanged correspondence with a site claiming to support Obama's position. The emails make the site seem dubious, at best. If I see something substantive that changes the equation, like Obama giving up a full name, etc - I'll update. At least for now, Obama's claim is in doubt. But then this is a guy who claimed his Grandfather enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor, when he actually enlisted months later.

Evidently the Senator doesn't only speak well ... he speaks "fast," as they say. And I believe he also included those wrong facts in his book. Given the media passing on all of his gaffes, if not downright lies, he is increasingly looking like the Affirmative Action candidate. And I don't believe the majority of Americans favor that type of system for electing a president.

And Mr. Kitchell’s helpful reply:

Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Good day

Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div

I have since been sent this followup email:

From: Mark Kitchell [mailto:markkitchell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Steve Gilbert
Subject: Re: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?

I don’t claim to represent anyone. You are the one who came to my son and I asking for information.

Please spend ample time chasing down the lies fed to you by chickenhawks Bush & Co. Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.

Okay, so we have supposedly learned that it was Obama's Great Uncle that liberated a sub-section of Buchenwald, not an uncle at Auschwitz. But if sources are correct and unless there's some arcane military history in his favor, Obama still has a problem.

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

Charles W. Payne of Kansas, with a similar birth era, served in the Navy during WWII.

What Obama's campaign released via first link above states he served in the Infantry. I assume it's possible the records are wrong, or he changed branches. But I'm unaware of that as a standard practice. Perhaps it happened during WWII for manpower reasons? Otherwise, Obama's Great Uncle would seem to have done most of his marching and liberating while at sea.

Information about the infantry division that Obama’s great uncle was a part of that took part in the liberation of a sub-camp of the Buchenwald concentration camp in Nazi German:

Comments

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I must disagree with you that these are tactics of the left. Quite to the contrary it was the right who mocked Senator Kerry's military service."

Ah, it was Kerry who first mocked his own service as you should know and it's a far different situation than this with Obie. Still, casting aspersions is a low ball tactic, used by partisans ever since we had two parties.

[JustADude]

BobinStamford

Another derail try but that version GI BILL has all sorts of faults in what it wants to do.

Just because the name sounds nice doesn't mean the content of the bill doesn't stink

The White House released a press release on the faults with that Webb version.

[ajm]

gents,

per Sweetness and Light, the unofficial Kitchell 89th Infantry website confirmed a C.T. Payne was with the 89th, 355th, company K. Not sure what that proves, but see S&L for the hilarious to and fro correspondence.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/a-query-to-the-89th-divisions-website

I remain dubious that a WWII vet responded to the inquiry in such a manner as he did the S&W's inquest. Also, please read the most recent 'newsletter' that was on the Kitchell's 89th Infantry site - WINTER 2006.

http://www.89infdivww2.org/home/feb2006.htm

Seems dad (Raymond) has had Alzheimer's for awhile. One thing is certain, son is a raving lefty, and C.T. does not necessarily = C.W Payne.

Cheers

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Funny how Obie is related to RE Lee and has an uncle named after a Union General.

[JustADude]

I am starting to get the feeling that something else is in play here.

Since Obama was raised in Hawaii and Jakarta and likely had little if any contact with family tree members in Kansas I wonder if this isn't just a pull in of some information by his campaign staff on his family tree to give him some street credibility on military issues.

If it was indeed a family oral history, he would likely have gotten the details right from memory or at least much better than appears to be the case here.

Looks like someone came up with some family information from his staff and just tried to play it into the Memorial Day theme and they didn't fully research all the story and screwed it up.

Also to the story of the grandfather day after Pearl Harbor bit, the dates of induction don't match to that story either.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Dammit.....Should have ended "...... named after a Union general who led black troops in the ACW.

[jharp]

ajm,

Thank you for that link.

Looks like Dan and company are to be eating crow for dinner tonight.

Now do the right thing and admit the mistake, apologize, and move on.

Oh, and next time do a little fact checking before attacking our next President.

"Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there."

[seekeronos]

"--- ... Semper Fi - for now!!! ---"

I do hope Bob, that for your own sake, that you never, ever say that in presence of a real Marine.

Assuming of course, that you are NOT a Marine; I'd find it hard to believe that a member of the Corps would ever conduct himself in such a manner as you do on this site.

For Sharon:

"--- Yes I do. A while back I read the Pentagon's New Map, a book which posits the concept of liberation and democracy as a path to a more peaceful world. It is not some pie in the sky notion. ---"

This disturbs me a bit, in that _nations_ do not generally attempt to enforce their vision of world peace on other sovereign nations.

Empires frequently do, to their own eventual downfall and ruination.

Such the case of Imperial Japan in her quest to drive out the colonial European powers in the name of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" (with a darker motive of securing favoured trading rights or outright robbery of those "liberated" colonies' resources.

Japan suffered greatly for her misdeeds, but has since learned her most invaluable lesson: that imperial expansion ruins a nation.

Today, Japan, a constitutional parliamentary monarchy, uses its immense soft power to influence other nations to living peacefully and benefits greatly from trade and good relations with most countries.

We would do better to repent of our move towards Empire - the NeoConservative's ambitious agendas as laid out in its hubris-filled "Project for a New American Century" and other similar publications --- and to keep our military as the honorable profession of defending our sovereign homeland, and not as the UN's global police.

I am sore vexed and afraid that our imperialist ambitions - which may not necessarily be the same as those colonial designs of passed empires of old - will still reap a terrible harvest on our stagflating economy, and allow a new brood of freedom-hating, liberty-loathing neo-socialists like Obama to come to a permanent place of power in America.

Let me implore you to study and look at the Constitutionalist platform, and support congressmen and a presidential candidate who will stand for the Constitution.

http://www.constitutionparty.org ### http://www.baldwin2008.com/index.php

[Lorne]

So this was his white uncle? What about his black, african and arab uncles - which wars did they fight in? We know he has a cousin, Odinga who caused a massive slaughter in Kenya recently, and also planned to usher in sharia law there...

someone should research that side of the fam since Obie has ignored his typical white family and basically despises white ppl according to his own book

[seekeronos]

"--- Is this a new malady spreading. ODS. ---"

Yup, you better believe it is.

Because y'all have kvetched for the past seven years about how bad the Chimperor was, so if'n Dumbo gets the job, you can rest assured that:

(a) We will have a fullblown epiedemic of ODS

(b) Rush Limbaugh (not that he is worth listening to) will fatten his bank accounts in ways unseen since Clinton left office.

[ajm]

jharp,

you tell me. Is C.T. Payne Obama's Uncle? Here is a list of all Charles Paynes that served in WWII from Kansas:

list of all Charles Payne’s who served from Kansas in WWII

Payne, Charles A. Inducted 11 April 1942, Army 37255144 Registered, order # 2043 Lyons, Rice Co. (Board # 1)

Payne, Charles C. Enlisted 14 December 1942, Coast Guard 573797 Unregistered Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 3)

Payne, Charles C. Enlisted 14 December 1942, Coast Guard 573797 Registered, order # 11358 Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 5)

Payne, Charles E. Inducted 9 June 1943, Army 37531353 Registered, order # V11125 Augusta, Butler Co. (Board # 2)

Payne, Charles H. Enlisted 17 January 1942, Navy 3007534 Unregistered Hoxie, Sheridan Co. (Board # 1)

Payne, Charles J. Inducted 12 September 1942, Army 37223827 Registered, order # 11191 Wichita, Sedgwick Co. (Board # 3)

Payne, Charles L. Inducted 22 November 1943, Navy 8671474 Registered, order # 11695 Eldorado, Butler Co. (Board # 1)

Payne, Charles L. Enlisted 1 October 1942, Army 0498672 Registered, order # U-894 Fort Scott, Bourbon Co. (Board # 1)

Payne, Charles T. Enlisted 13 December 1942, Navy 3427439 Unregistered Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 4)

Payne, Charles W. Enlisted , Navy 6287657 Registered, order # 11111 Hutchinson, Reno Co. (Board # 3)

Payne, Charles W. Enlisted 10 November 1942, Navy 6293977 Registered, order # 12017 Kansas City, Wyandotte Co.

[Lala]

sweetness and light has not been able to confirm that Obama's uncle was in the 89th yet. There is quite a lot of discussion going on there over the middle initial of Charles Payne. Also, a new uncle has emerged, name of Jon. I also picked up this

quote
# Pal2Pal
May 28th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

The complete service records should be available thru the National Archives if you have enough identifying info including proof of death. If the person is still alive, then the records are confidential to all but the service member. As to proof of the 89th, that is more questionable. Several at JOM were working on finding that yesterday, but I bailed out of the thread before anything was nailed down definitively.

I have been a genealogist for over 35 yeas and I find the entire Obama pedigree info to be strange. Strange in the fact that it is so sparse and so poorly sourced. And weird because an event like being there at the liberation of a camp is something most genealogists and family researchers would normally highlight in a big way.

The other problem is that Obama claims his grandfather was with Patton, and Patton was at Ohrdruf, but then there is the question of whether Stanley Dunham ever saw any combat.

I’m just gathering facts, BTW, and not promoting one position over another.
unquote

[cervantes]

This information is from the official infantry division's history:

Liberating Units: Combat Command A 4th Armored Division found evidence of 9,000 bodies disposed of in pits. Approximately 61 inmates, including one American flyer, were shot by SS guards in the last moments before liberation. The camp was occupied by the 89th Infantry Division, which supervised burials.

Notice the distinction between occupying and liberating.

source: http://www.89infdivww2.org/ohrdruf/gram.htm

This is also consistent with one of the soldier's narrative.

http://www.89infdivww2.org/ohrdruf/liberate.htm

There is a C.W. Payne on the list. No W. C. Payne. Here is the relevant part:

Payne C. T. Pfc 355thInf K
Payne L. Pfc 355thInf B
Payne M.J. Pfc 563rdFABn Bat A
Payne R. C. Pfc 314EngCbBn C
Payne J. L. Pfc 353rdInf I
Payne L. E. Pfc 353rdInf A
Payne W. C. Pfc 354th A

http://89infdivww2.org//home/list_p.htm

Hopefully this information is helpful.

[jharp]

"Because y'all have kvetched for the past seven years about how bad the Chimperor was,"

You are quite mistaken. The monkey had an approval rating around 90% in late 2001-2002. And still in the 60%'s in 2004.

It was only after it became apparent that he started a war based on lies that he received the criticism he so richly deserved. Oh, and throw in a little warrantless spying on Americans, outing a covert CIA agent, imprisoning an American without charges, torture, and blowing $4 trillion.

[cervantes]

Sorry for the mistake in my last post. I did use the wrong initials. This sentence

There is a C.W. Payne on the list. No W. C. Payne.

should read:

There is a W.C. Payne on the list. No C. W. Payne.

Some slight dislexia at work.

[jharp]

"you tell me. Is C.T. Payne Obama's Uncle?"

I believe it to be so.

Don't you think it's best to first find the facts before the attacks?

You all attack first, then try to find out the truth.

I was brought up quite differently.

[Lala]

Jon Payne says that Charles Payne, 83, lives in Chicago.

I find a Charles E. and a Charles T. both 83 in Chicago

[ajm]

Jharp. We are trying to get to the bottom of it. Few here are assuming a complete fabrication, despite Obama's knack for complete fabrications. His great uncle on the blogs for Obama website listing genealogy is Charles W. Payne, not Charles T. Could it be a mistake, you bet. We intend to find out. My take is that Obama would not make something up out of thin air like this, so there has to be some truth behind the story. But if his uncle was not Charles T, but Charles W, then he's going to have to explain how a Navy man was in the German theatre.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"You all attack first, then try to find out the truth."

Which of course is worse than continuing the attack in the face of the truth.....or better yet..making up the "truth"?

[Fred Beloit]

If Harpo is on your side Willie, I know I must be right.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"If Harpo is on your side Willie, I know I must be right."

LOLOLOL you crack me up my friend.

[cervantes]

At best Mr. Obama's story is:

One of Mr. Obama's great-uncles either took part in the cleaning and burying operations carried out in the Ohrdruf concentration camp by his unit subsequent to the actual liberation of the camp by another unit, visited the camp or read a newspaper account of it.

This liberation was frontpage news at the time.

[e. brown]

auschwitz, buchenwald, mcdonalds.....

uncle, neighbor, guy he read about once....

criticizing obama is racist.

[Tired of Liars]

This gentleman was not Obama’s great uncle.

Kansas City Star, The (MO) - July 24, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deceased Name: CHARLES W. PAYNE

Charles W. Payne, 76, of Kansas City, KS, passed away Saturday, July 22, 2000, at Shawnee Mission Medical Center. Funeral services will be 11 a.m. Tuesday, July 25, at the Simmons Funeral Home; burial in Maple Hill Cemetery. Friends may call 6-8 p.m. Monday at the funeral home. Memorial contributions may be made to Grandview Christian Church.

Mr. Payne was born January 4, 1924, in Kansas City, KS. Mr. Payne retired in 1986 as a foreman from the Griffin Wheel Company after 29 years of service. Previously he was a carman for the Santa Fe Railway for nine years. He was a Navy veteran of WWII, serving in the 3rd Special Seabees Construction Battalion. Mr. Payne was a member of the American Legion Post III. He managed 3&2 baseball teams for 20 years, and was a Boy Scout leader for Troop 3040 for eight years. Mr. Payne was preceded in death by a son, Mike; four sisters; three brothers; and a grandson. Surviving are his wife of 54 years, Irene Payne, of the home; two sons, Chuck Payne and his wife Donna, and Terry Payne and his wife Susie, all of Kansas City, KS; a sister, Annetta Richard, Kansas City, MO; five grandchildren, Mike Payne II, Leann Payne, Chuck Payne, Matt Payne and Amy Payne; and two great-grandchildren, Melody Payne and Tristan Payne. (Arrangements: Simmons Funeral Home)

[cervantes]

Tired of liars.

This is solid information. The same guy?

[cervantes]

JoeSky | Wednesday, May 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM, posted earlier on this site, gives the answer to the enigma.

The 2008 story is a tall tale. Both versions, the 2002 and 2008 ones, are almost impossible to reconcile. The 2002 version does support my "newspaper, front page" theory. Most Americans felt the same as his grandfather at that time, as well as most members of the human race, on what is known now as the Holocaust. Nothing special to Mr. Obama's family.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"At Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Navy Volunteers bathe victims. "

That blurb comes from the Nat'l Archives. Yes, it's a different camp but is it possible that Navy medical personnel were called into other camps? We are talking about thousands of patients with as many illnesses/injuries.

[Lala]

From the list below there were two W's

Payne, Charles W. Enlisted , Navy 6287657 Registered, order # 11111 Hutchinson, Reno Co. (Board # 3)

Payne, Charles W. Enlisted 10 November 1942, Navy 6293977 Registered, order # 12017 Kansas City, Wyandotte Co.

[Lala]

from www.freerepublic.com

I checked Army records for all Charles W. Payne’s and didn’t find his uncle:
34986135 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### MISSISSIPPI ALCORN CP SHELBY MISSISSIPPI 44 Civil Life 24
35130575 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### OHIO HIGHLAND STOUT FIELD INDIANAPOLIS INDIANA 45 Enlisted Man, Philippine Scout or recall to AD of an enlisted man who had been transferred to the ERC 18
35484733 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### KENTUCKY GRAYSON LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 42 Civil Life 15
35771823 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### Undefined Code Undefined Code HUNTINGTON WEST VIRGINIA 43 Civil Life 24
35824855 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### KENTUCKY JEFFERSON LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY 45 Civil Life 26
35986647 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### OHIO KNOX FT BRAGG NORTH CAROLINA 45 Enlisted Man, Philippine Scout or recall to AD of an enlisted man who had been transferred to the ERC 24
38288470 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### ARKANSAS VAN BURNE LITTLE ROCK ARKANSAS 42 Civil Life 22
39410090 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### CALIFORNIA NAPA SACRAMENTO CALIFORNIA 43 Civil Life 23
39463879 PAYNE#CHARLES#W#JR###### IDAHO LATAH SPOKANE WASHINGTON 43 Civil Life 24
19047778 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### OREGON MULTNOMAH PORTLAND OREGON 42 Civil Life 17
20349511 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### MARYLAND HARFORE BALTIMORE MARYLAND 41 National Guard 18
00630346 PAYNE#CHARLES#W#######/# MICHIGAN GENESEE FLINT MICHIGAN 40 National Guard 17
32138878 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### NEW YORK STEUBEN ROCHESTER NEW YORK 42 Civil Life 19
33132335 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### VIRGINIA SPOTSYLVANIA CP LEE VIRGINIA 42 Civil Life 20
33812896 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### Undefined Code Undefined Code PHILADELPHIA PENNSYLVANIA 44 Civil Life 16
34140857 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### TENNESSEE KNOX FT OGLETHORPE GEORGIA 41 Civil Life 13
34255437 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### NORTH CAROLINA PERSON FT BRAGG NORTH CAROLINA 42 Civil Life 20
34710694 PAYNE#CHARLES#W######### TENNESSEE KNOX CP FORREST TENNESSEE 43 Civil Life 23
34881456 PAYNE#CHARLES#W#SR###### TENNESSEE KNOX FT OGLETHORPE GEORGIA 43 Undefined Code 08

178 posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:26:25 PM by Fox_Mulder77

[Lala]

Willy,

I believe you are referring to Navy Lt. Jack H. Taylor, a prisoner at Mauthausen who may or may not have bathed the prisoners.

[bobInStamford]

Anyone else think that Lala should be making dinner or watching Dr Phil? So much free time...

[Mr Bob]

"He was a Navy veteran of WWII, serving in the 3rd Special Seabees Construction Battalion"

Seabees are definitely combat veterans. I know many now who have seen combat even in Iraq and Afghanistan.(I am a Navy Reservist and vet of the current conflicts although from the sea)

Navy Seabeas are ground personnel, and usually (but not always) go in AFTER the main fighting to rebuild. They saw a lot of action in WW2 and the the clean up was horrendous in those camps.

There are enough problems with Obama. Don't get side tracked on this kind of rabbit trail.

[Lala]

The housekeeper is making dinner now.

[Tully]

I've dug and dug in local Kansas records, and still cannot eliminate or include CT Payne of Chicago as the CW or CE Payne of Augusta, Kansas who is Obama's great-uncle. Even assuming a wrong middle initial being recorded somewhere along the line, no link has yet shown up.

Most likely possibility in KS rcords is the Charles E Payne of Augusta drafted into the Army in 1943. Still have to have a record error on the middle initial to match up.

[cervantes]

Re: Posted by: WAHOO WILLIE | Wednesday, May 28, 2008 at 04:34 PM

There was nobody alive in the concentration camp in question when the liberating unit entered it. In Mauthausen, there was a fair number of survivors.

The camps of Mauthausen-Gusen were the last to be liberated during the World War II. On May 5, 1945, the camp at Mauthausen was approached by soldiers of the 41st Recon Squad of the US 11th Armored Division, 3rd US Army. The reconnaissance squad was led by S/SGT Albert J. Kosiek. His troop disarmed the policemen and left the camp. By the time of its liberation, most of the SS-men of Mauthausen had already fled; however, some 30 who were left were killed by the prisoners;[71] a similar number were killed in Gusen II.[71] By May 6 all the remaining sub-camps of the Mauthausen-Gusen camp complex, with the exception of the two camps in the Loibl Pass, were also liberated by American forces.

Among the inmates liberated from the camp was Lieutenant Jack Taylor, an officer of the Office of Strategic Services.[72] He had managed to survive with the help of several prisoners and was later a key witness at the Mauthausen-Gusen camp trials carried out by the Dachau International Military Tribunal.[73] Another of the camp's survivors was Simon Wiesenthal, an engineer who spent the rest of his life hunting Nazi war criminals.

Memorial.

Following the capitulation of Germany, the Mauthausen-Gusen complex fell within the Soviet sector of occupation of Austria. Initially, the Soviet authorities used parts of the Mauthausen and Gusen I camps as barracks for the Red Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthausen-Gusen_concentration_camp

I have not checked the accuracy of your Navy staff and bathing information.

[obama researcher]

Here's your man. He's contributed money to Obama multiple times, and he's 60+

Melanie S & Charles T Payne

home

1120 N Lake Shore Dr, Apt 16-D

Chicago, IL 60611-1353

(312) 712-9909

[SarahW]

Can someone do a search (as lala did for the Charles W's) for all "Charles T. Payne"s who have served in the army? It's plausible the uncle was not residing in Kansas at the time of his enlistment.

Also, it's tradition in my family to have four names. It's even harder now to do that in a "three blank" world - one result is I an my son have variable middle initials. A person with four names will sometimes have to let one go on the records.

[SarahW]

Jharp, it's never going to turn out that Obama was accurate. This whole thing is his own fault. He is the one who substituted an impossible camp for his uncle to have liberated/been traumatized by. The error is a kind of sucky one to make for someone who is supposed to understand recent world history and geography. Perhaps he thought "Auschwitz" made a stronger impression or that in his mind or the publics that is generic for "concentration camp". I don't know his deal, but when you trouble to tell true stories to make a political point, tell a TRUE story.

Now, it's just a matter of not taking for granted that everything Obama now says about it is necessarily true. He earned that doubt. His Uncle, btw, is not being criticized nor his service demeaned. That service is what is was. The point is how truthful has OBAMA been about it.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I have not checked the accuracy of your Navy staff and bathing information."
Posted by: cervantes

Don't waste your time. Lala pointed out that the photo I cited was of Taylor who volunteered to assist bathing prisoners. The photo description did not say that Taylor was also a prisoner, my mistake. I thought it was clear however that there may have been Navy medical personnel brought in at any point (yes, even after finding no one alive) because of the numbers of casualties. I did not mean to imply that Taylor or anyone else was brought in for certain. Just looking at possible explanations.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Here's your man. He's contributed money to Obama multiple times, and he's 60+"

Uh, It's very unlikely that this is Obie's "great uncle" being one generation older. It is even more unlikely that someone "60+" served in WWII. When Pookie the mathmatical LLama gets here she'll explain how many years ago 1945 was.

[bobInStamford]

It's a pity that you patriotic internets detectives can find so much silly minutiae but cant seem to find those WMDs or that pesky bin Laden fellow. I'm sure that your valiant efforts will be rewarded in November.

Thank you for your SERVICE!!!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Here's more on Lt Taylor.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauTrials/Mauthausen04.html

[cervantes]

There was a post made by JoeSky - he posted the same message it seems on Gretawire. The post vanishes from this site and, so it seems, from Gretawire.

I'm unable to say if the information the post contained was accurate or not. Is it possible to put the message back and to state that this information was inaccurate, if this is the case.

This is what I'm referring to.

JoeSky | Wednesday, May 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM, posted earlier on this site, gives the answer to the enigma.

The 2008 story is a tall tale. Both versions, the 2002 and 2008 ones, are almost impossible to reconcile. The 2002 version does support my "newspaper, front page" theory. Most Americans felt the same as his grandfather at that time, as well as most members of the human race, on what is known now as the Holocaust. Nothing special to Mr. Obama's family.

[SarahW]

Wahoo Willie, that's a fine candidate for Obama' s uncle.

The uncle is about 84. Even by that wacky new math, that would qualify as over age 60. (FWIW, there is unlikely to be any higher age category in that database).

[Steve-o]

So that's as close as Obama can come to military service, a great uncle served 63 years ago?

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Wahoo Willie, that's a fine candidate for Obama' s uncle."
Sarah I didn't see a link for said database and was only left with "60+". Since WWII ended 63 years 20 days ago (barring a link to the base) an age closer to 80 would've been easier to swallow.

[cervantes]

I don't really know how to do genealogical research.

Re: Charles T. Payne = Obama's second grandfather (born 1861).

http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Barack_Obama_(1961)

Charles T.Payne II or Jr. for the "uncle". Unlikely.

[cervantes]

This is the statement I was looking for. Quite a remake of his 2002 story:

Oct 2002: My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/GeorgiansforObama/C5yh

This is the source of the story revisited a la Obama.

Fellow troops: Russian troops for some camps.

[Dan S]

I know a lot of people on think it's going too far to question Obama's story about his uncle or grandfather or whoever his relative was that last fought in a war, but whether or not it's true is a totally valid question to ponder. Anything he says in a speech is open for scrutiny. If he and his supporters don't like it then fact-check his damn speeches. He could have just said he had relatives who served in WW2 but no, he had to try to capitalize on the drama of a concentration camp liberation by going into detail and now that detail may not hold water. He's proven to have stretched the truth in the past so no one can be shocked that he doesn't exactly have the benefit of the doubt (with bloggers anyway). When you're running for a national office and telling stories during your speeches you need to probably double-check that the stories you heard as a child about uncle so and so weren't stretched a bit.

[cmscherb2]

Wow, what a lot of hogwash. Visit the 89th division website for the truth. The truth shall set you free. http://www.89infdivww2.org