A New Problem For Obama?

Update: As of now, there's been much speculation and linkage as regards Obama's Great Uncle. Nothing I have seen confirms his middle initial as "T," as opposed to "W." And a CT Payne someone sent info on is deceased. That would seem to disqualify him. Also, S&L has exchanged correspondence with a site claiming to support Obama's position. The emails make the site seem dubious, at best. If I see something substantive that changes the equation, like Obama giving up a full name, etc - I'll update. At least for now, Obama's claim is in doubt. But then this is a guy who claimed his Grandfather enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor, when he actually enlisted months later.

Evidently the Senator doesn't only speak well ... he speaks "fast," as they say. And I believe he also included those wrong facts in his book. Given the media passing on all of his gaffes, if not downright lies, he is increasingly looking like the Affirmative Action candidate. And I don't believe the majority of Americans favor that type of system for electing a president.

And Mr. Kitchell’s helpful reply:

Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Good day

Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div

I have since been sent this followup email:

From: Mark Kitchell [mailto:markkitchell@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Steve Gilbert
Subject: Re: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?

I don’t claim to represent anyone. You are the one who came to my son and I asking for information.

Please spend ample time chasing down the lies fed to you by chickenhawks Bush & Co. Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf.

Okay, so we have supposedly learned that it was Obama's Great Uncle that liberated a sub-section of Buchenwald, not an uncle at Auschwitz. But if sources are correct and unless there's some arcane military history in his favor, Obama still has a problem.

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

Charles W. Payne of Kansas, with a similar birth era, served in the Navy during WWII.

What Obama's campaign released via first link above states he served in the Infantry. I assume it's possible the records are wrong, or he changed branches. But I'm unaware of that as a standard practice. Perhaps it happened during WWII for manpower reasons? Otherwise, Obama's Great Uncle would seem to have done most of his marching and liberating while at sea.

Information about the infantry division that Obama’s great uncle was a part of that took part in the liberation of a sub-camp of the Buchenwald concentration camp in Nazi German:

Comments

[Kaitian]

In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 Jharp comes here screaming "Despicable! Disgraceful! You slandered his great-uncle! This is absolutely disgraceful!"

[SacTownMan]

"Despicable! Disgraceful! You slandered his great-uncle! This is absolutely disgraceful!"

Sorry, couldn't help myself! ;)

In this day and age of the internet how can Barry continue to set himself up like this?

Dan Rather was the perfect example of using made up shit when he produced documents that just happened to be proved false by internet snoops.

There are people with no life out there that can spend hour after hour hanging around on obscure internet sites researching every useless fact ever known.

I have to admit that I pictured Harpo and Lame-O when I typed that?

[Lala]

Charlie Payne is still alive, hopefully out of the attic, maybe the NYT will interview him.

Sac, in the past it was easy for politicians to lie because everything was buried in archives and difficult to find. It's a new day and let's let the sunshine in.

As to people thinking that it's ok to plagiarize because they are not making money on it, I say they are just liars trying to pass themselves off as something they are not. I can see making a mistake forgetting to put the link in but when I see it more than once I know it is not a mistake. I've called one person on it twice now and let one of his posts go because he put quotation marks around the statement.

http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2008/05/does-barack-have-uncle-and-did-he.html has a few good observations, one of them being that the camp was a slave-labor camp not a Jewish extermination camp and that the 89th was only there about 3 hours.

[JustADude]

OK Dan that is from the grandmother's side of the family.

Now we have another issue with the grandfather's side.

This via commentors over at Ace of Spades

Stanley Dunham the grandfather had an older brother Ralph Dunham Jr (no link to a family tree to check)

Now linking to the same Kansas database
http://www.kshs.org/genealogists/military/wwiiveteransresults.php?page=364&branch=A

It shows a Dunham, Ralph E. who served in the army.

So if the info on the grand dads older brother is correct we might be coming from that way.

But another commentor notes

The Kansas site also notes that serial # was also assigned to another individual.

It also seems that this particular "Ralph E. Dunham" appears only on the Kansas site. A very preliminary search of the National Archives and Records Administration's U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946 database shows 31 Dunhams who were either born in or registered/enlisted in Kansas. Obama's grandfather Stanley appears; no Ralphs at all.

One of the few Dunham trees on ancestry.com that even mention Ralph are clear that he was born August 29, 1916. The closest birth date of *any* of the 10 Ralph Dunhams in the NARA database is 1917 (and he was born and enlisted in Illinois, in 1940).

One tree says he married one Elizabeth Smith in Nova Scotia in 1947. That may explain why he's not in the Social Security Death Index (so could "he's still alive" or "he died before retirement age").

That tree also names includes two sisters; Eleanor (m. Ralph L. Berkebile - only one in the NARA database enlisted in 1945 in AK) and Virginia (no info on her). Perhaps this putative death-camp-liberating uncle is the spouse of one of them.

So has anyone got a link where Obama named this guy so we can figure out which one to track down?

A simple unit name they could google but we need the family branch and the actual name to totally dig it out.

[Southern Values]

You patriots should have shown this much intellectual curiosity concerning GWB’s military history. Now there’s a story to be proud of.

[JustADude]

Via Politico

The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive.

So that would eliminate the grandfathers side if Burton got that right and we would be back to the issue with Mr Payne.

[syn]

'You patriots should have shown this much intellectual curiosity concerning GWB’s military history. Now there’s a story to be proud of.' (Southern Values)

Translated: You patriots were just too smart to simply accept Dan Rather's 'Fake but Accurate' document provided by moonbat producer Mary Mapes! Are you proud of rejecting Big Brother's Big Eye!

[JustADude]

Now they come up at ACE with the following on Payne

Payne, Charles E. Inducted 9 June 1943, Army 37531353 Registered, order # V11125 Augusta, Butler Co. (Board # 2)
but no link to the record of which database they were searching

Then another poster said this

I dunno. The two Ancestry trees that give Grandpa Stanley's brother a middle name list him as Charles Roland Payne (their father's name was Rolla).

OTOH, as somebody else posted, in the 1930 census the family's in Augusta, Butler Co., KS, and in the KS rolls there's a Charles E. inducted there 9 June 1943.

And there are currently both a Charles W. and Charles E (with the same birth year - 1925) at the same Wichita address. (Phone numbers available in that database, too.)

So confirmation of the great uncle name may still be an issue

[Southern Values]

Oh no – another former Bushie trying to recover a portion of their dignity and reputation:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html

What are you 28 percenters going to do as more and more of the truth comes out about this corrupt and incompetent Administration. It will you know. As more and more staff realize that they have to repair their reputations and justify what part they played is this disaster - The tell all books will just keep coming. Fortunately, most of the patriots that comment on this blog get their news from Fox, so reading or truth has never been a real issue.

[Southern Values]

Hey Syn –
“ Translated: You patriots were just too smart to simply accept Dan Rather's 'Fake but Accurate' document provided by moonbat producer Mary Mapes! Are you proud of rejecting Big Brother's Big Eye!”

So I take it from your post that you are proud of GWB’s military service? I would be – there is so much to honor there.

[Leigh]

On another board yesterday afternoon I suggested it might be Charlie Payne rather than a Dunham. However, the only source of Charlie's "W" middle initial is a rough genealogy on about.com. I've found nothing elsewhere to indicate it, and none of the Payne genealogies online provide any primary source. Two Ancestry trees give Charles a middle name: Roland (his father's name was Rolla).

"Charles" (no middle initial) and family including Obama's grandfather Stanley appear in the 1930 census for Augusta, Butler Co. KS

In the KS Army rolls there's a Charles E. inducted 9 June 1943 in Augusta, Butler Co.

Currently there are three octogenarian Charles Paynes in Kansas - two Charles W's and one Charles E. One of the Charles W has a 1924 birth year. The other Charles W's and the Charles E share the same birth year (1925), but the same address and phone number. So it seems Uncle Charlie may himself be a bit confused about his middle name.

The real problem is that none of the Paynes in the 89th's roster are either C.E. or C.W. (Am still looking for the link to that list - I had it yesterday.)

So there seems to be some confusion even with Uncle Charlie over what his middle name is.

[Capitalist Infidel]

I guess you're proud of Obamas military record eh?

[Southern Values]

I don’t see a great deal of difference - Both never really served. That said, one of the two didn’t try to imply service by taking advantage of family connections.

[seekeronos]

Funny how the liberals keep clubbing the dead horse over the head long after the maggots have devoured its corpse.

What Bush has done vis-a-vis his military record is not particularly germane to this discussion.

We are well aware that GWB's service record did not place him strapped into an A-7 USAF aircraft 17,000 feet over any part of Vietnam as well he might have been had he not been a child of privilege, or that Cheney used his deferments because his rather large brain would have been wasted commanding a platoon or a company in the jungle.

It may have been germane to the 2004 election with John "Purple-Heart-Band-Aid-Halp-Me" Kerry (where we may credit that slimeball with at least having gone to the jungle and participating in combat, much to his later backstabbery via his role as "Winter Soldier"... but to ask y'all libs to let the election of 2004 go is probably too much, no?

So yeah, G.W. Bush is a child of privilege and used his connections to shimmy out of going to the Jungle to beat up on Ho Chi Minh.

Life is not Fair™. Deal with it.

This has been the case pretty much throughout history, that a fair number of talented children of privilege can leverage their privilege to reserve themselves from hazardous duty.

Until and unless a Constitutional Amendment is passed requiring military service as a test for holding public office, this will remain the case for our Republic.

HOWEVER...

...when a candidate attempts to play up on the sympathy of the Jews (the Auschwitz Card) or the vets though a mystery great-uncle whose three hours at the Ohrduf(sp) satellite camp to Buchenwald (the BS Card) was enough to make him the proverbial "crazy old uncle locked up in the attic" - we call it "blatantly padding his résumé" and is typically considered to be by most prospective employers to be grounds for non-hire.

As a potential hiring agent for Obama as POTUS, I am not amused at what is quite possibly the steamiest and stinkiest pile of malarkey yet released by the Obama-messiah.

[SAM]

Full disclosure: I loathe Obama.

That said, what's the REAL story here? I come away with four problems or questions about Obama in this example of his storytelling.

First, it's an example of Obama reaching for stories to prove "he's one of us" as Pat Buchanan and Chris Matthews like to put it. Here, Obama tells listeners of some family legend that he heard about a great uncle he really doesn't seem to know. Sorry, Obama gets no heritage points for this one.

Second, it's certainly an effective rhetorical technique to recount a personal story, would it be possible for Obama to give listerners a factual story. Specifically, did Uncle Whoever really stay in the attic for six months? Seriously, what are we to believe?

Third, he used the Uncle Whoever story to lead into a discussion about the current PTSD treatment regimen for returning veterans. That's a serious issue to be sure. But I don't understand the relevance of Uncle Whoever's treatment 60 years ago upon returning from World War II. Back then, people classified the seriously damaged as "shell-shocked" and left it at that. Others, less damaged, just had to deal with it. Yet we've had the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the Gulf War, and I cannot believe that treatment is still the same. I emphasize that I realize that the issue is important and that it's appropriate for Obama, if he wishes, to campaign on a promise to change the treatment. But my point is what's the current state of treatment because, on its face, I'm unwilling to believe that it remains in the state that it was when Uncle Whoever stayed in the attic 60 years ago.

Fourth, and to some extent and extension of the third point, it highlights, again, how Obama, for all his supposed superior intellect, continually ties subjects together that really have nothing to do with each other. We've seen before how his white grandmother is as racist as Jeremiah Wright (yeah right) and now a 60-year old family legend is the basis for a change in policy in dealing with PSTD treatment. I need a more logical connection between the current status of treatment to what Obama proposes--and I don't feel like a trip through Obama's fictional heritage to get there.

[Worst President Ever]

Meanwhile, in stuff that actually affects Americans, looks like McSame's got another lobbyist problem. You know, the guys the Straight Talk Express doesn't hire, except when he does.

Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain’s national campaign general co-chair was being paid by a Swiss bank to lobby Congress about the U.S. mortgage crisis at the same time he was advising McCain about his economic policy, federal records show.

....

The final UBS form listing Gramm’s work as a lobbyist says he was lobbying the Senate in the second half of 2007 regarding the Helping Families Save Their Homes in Bankruptcy Act. The bill would have let bankruptcy judges rewrite mortgage terms for Americans facing foreclosure so they could repay their loans and keep their homes.

The banking industry opposed this measure. The bill failed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24844889

[BJ]

Maybe BO's great-uncle might have been a battlefield corpsman (medical specialist)? They were the only Navy enlisted attached to combat units.

But Navy corpsman are only attached to the Marines and BO said he was part of Patton's Third Army. Doesn't add up.

[Blerk]

In any case, let's assume said uncle exists, and returned from the war and spent time in the attic as a consequence of his horror-induced psychosis. So what does that prove? "All vets come back so scarred that we should end the war right now" I guess is what we're supposed to take away from it.

Reality check: I was in a car accident some years ago, and suffered some emotional trauma. Thus, ban all cars. Maybe if it happend to my uncle the argument would be valid?

[Sharon]

I get really steamed about the denigration of Bush's national guard service. He spent enough time in the national guard to learn to fly jet planes very successfully and completed his required service contract. Clinton used connections to get out of his service and John Kerry only managed 90 days in Vietnam during which he claimed to have been wounded 3 times and opted out even though he was never hospitalized. Both he and Clinton then proceeded to do everything possible to destroy the military. Clinton by allowing the military infrastructure to significantly deteriorate and Kerry by claiming unspeakable acts by our honorable military which have never been proven. Now here comes Obama and his cohorts again using the military in their quest for power in the same unconscionable way. Their claims that McCain's service has somehow warped him and made him a hot tempered killing machine(their view of our wonderful honorable soldiers). I am so disgusted with the Democrats unfounded allegations about the soldiers who believe in their mission and carry it out with honor and integrity.

[Southern Values]

Sharon –

Your post has a strong note of sincerity concerning the plight of our troops. Forgetting individual service, do you really believe our country is safer now and the capabilities and preparedness of our military better do the last 7 or so years of this Administration?

[JCPennylegion]

Maybe Uncle Charlie's records no longer exist? A fire in April 1973 at the National Archives Personnel Records Center in St Louis destroyed between 16 and 18 million records, primarily those of U.S. Army personnel discharged November 1, 1912, to January 1, 1960

[Me]

Southern Values,

Please don't spin/divert this to a discussion of George Bush or, as you say, the "last seven years."

BTW, Bush isn't running in 2008.

[Sharon]

Yes I do. A while back I read the Pentagon's New Map, a book which posits the concept of liberation and democracy as a path to a more peaceful world. It is not some pie in the sky notion. Nations which are prosperous and democratic do not go to war. They are concerned with commerce and settle things via treaties and negotiations. Iraq is a linchpin to this concept in the middle east. We have succeeded in isolating Iran. Much has been made of the success of Hamas and Hezbollah but they have been exposed by Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and the blatant ignoring of the UN mandate in Lebanon. The meme is changing. Al Quaida has been significantly degraded and can no longer mount major attacks in the US and there are arguments going on now about whether violence is achieving their goals. Would any of this happened if we had not gone to Iraq? Our military has been able to test their equipment, identify problems and correct them. They have learned new techniques to battle asymetric warfare. Yes, a lot of soldiers have died, but if you look at the statistic even when we are not at war, many die in training accidents and other causes making this the most survivable war we have ever fought. Sorry for the long rant but the lack of knowledge and the short memories of some of the people backing Obama piss me off.

[Lala]

Bravo Sharon

Please keep writing

[Fred Beloit]

"But Navy corpsman are only attached to the Marines and BO said he was part of Patton's Third Army. Doesn't add up."

There were few if any Marines involved in Europe. If you want to conquer an island, call the Marines. If you want to conquer a continent, call the Army.

Speaking of left-wing BS, Karsenty won the al-Dura case. He made the liars at France 2 look like, well, like CBS or MSNBC. The al-Dura video has now been proven a fake in a court of law. Bloggers made sure this trial was objectively covered.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/french-court-vindicates-al-dura-hoax-critic/

[Southern Values]

Me – Please don't spin/divert this to a discussion of George Bush or, as you say, the "last seven years."
BTW, Bush isn't running in 2008.

Fair enough about diverting the discussion. It is my considered opinion, however, that Bush is in fact running again as McCain. What’s the old phrase about not understanding history and therefore destined to repeat it?

Sharon
I can’t for the life of me understand how you can say we’ve isolated Iran. If anything we have made that country more significant. They are a Shia nation. That’s the sect we are currently supporting.

[Worst President Ever]

Viet Nam was a war zone. Texas was not. John Kerry went to war and fought. George Bush did not.

Iraq's a bit more than some training mission, particularly if you happen to live there. But hey, those 4,000 American dead, no big deal, they could've died someplace else anyway.

If you really believe prosperous nations don't go to war, you need to reread your history.

[chris]

A big thank you to Sharon and the rest of the troops for ensuring that Iraq will never attack us again. I for one sleep better at night knowing this.

[JoeSky]

BO made a reference to Auschwitz in his 2002 speech against Iraq war. At that time it was his grandfather who heard about Auschwitz.

Obama 2002 speech

Quote:
"Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.

The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through
the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.

I don't oppose all wars."

In 2008, the story changed from grandfather to uncle. But this time his uncle not just heard about Auschwitz. BO said his uncle actually went to Auschwitz.

Quote:
"..an uncle who was one of the..ah..who's part of the first American troops to go to Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camp."

You be the judge if this is an innocent mistake or a deliberate act to exaggerate family history for political gain.

First, parents participated and met at MLK march. - lie.
Second, father benefited from JFK chartered flight. - lie.
Third, uncle (revised great-uncle) liberated the infamous death camp. - lie.

[Lala]

Elie Wiesel was at Buchenwald when it was liberated. Maybe he remembers Charlie Payne.

[JorgXMcKie]

Hmmmm. I don't come here all that often, so, given the discussion, may I presume that the person commenting as Worst President Ever truly *is* Jimmy Carter? Sure sounds like him. Where *does* he find the time? OTOH, I was beginning to think maybe Southern Values was Carter, due the obvious lack of Southern values while pumping himself up. Or maybe one is a sock puppet for the other, and thus *both* of them are actually History's Greatest Monster? (Thanks, Simpsons)

[Worst President Ever]

Reagan took pictures of the liberated concentration camps at the end of the war. Maybe he got a picture of Obama's uncle.

Oh, wait. Reagan made that up.

***************

Asked to rank the presidency of George W. Bush in comparison to those of the other 41 American presidents, more than 61 percent of the historians concluded that the current presidency is the worst in the nation’s history. Another 35 percent of the historians surveyed rated the Bush presidency in the 31st to 41st category, while only four of the 109 respondents ranked the current presidency as even among the top two-thirds of American administrations.

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

[Southern Values]

Hey JorgXMcKie
What are talking about, no Southern Values - I love my guns, distrust anybody not white and a Christian, and also say Ma’am when talking to my dear sweet mother. Oh, and I almost forgot about that part that says if you make a mistake, as in election choices, don’t ever admit you were wrong and try to change things. Stay committed to the bitter end. Remember to turn up the bile and write endlessly about those character issues ( As you know Barry is not white and his Christianity is sure in question ). We sure don’t want folk doing any thinking about the state of their country, economy, military, political system and wealth equality. I mean, I think it’s more important to worry that somewhere some gay guy is thinking about some physical act with another gay consenting adult.

[Diplomad]

Can't somebody just ask his "typical white person" grandmother? She is still around and would, I assume, know whether her brother/father/cousin/step-aunt etc served in the Army during WWII.

[Diplomad]

Can't somebody just ask his "typical white person" grandmother? She is still around and would, I assume, know whether her brother/father/cousin/step-aunt etc served in the Army during WWII.

[chris]

Personally, I would rather have seen Hillary in O8. But I must admit that knowing that you angry, backward fools will be paying $4+ a gallon AND have a black, liberal president is funnier than words. Abortion pills in vending machines and weapons confiscation are a short 7 months away!

[Scrapiron]

Like it or not, GWB served in the National Guard and on 'active' duty in the AF for a year + while being trained as a fighter pilot in the widow maker. Any slam at Bush's National Guard service is a slam at every man and woman that is serving or has served in the National Guard. "Despicable! Disgraceful! is an accurate description of 99 44/100% of the American Communist, aka democrats, of today. I don't think some of the democrat posters on here meet the requirements of having at least the mental capacity of a 12 YO and none have any Patriotism or respect for the country and the people who died so they can live in freedom. The I've got mine (freedom, thanks to help from a foreign power) attitude, so the hell with millions of people in Iraq and the rest of the middle east shows just how low class they are. The fancy education (at least a piece of paper) won't help them one bit. Evidently the new liberal Harvard has a course titled, Makin’ Sh!t Up 101 that was a favorite of the O'bambi's.

[cervantes]

I agree this matter should be checked. Here's a comment I've posted elsewhere. You're raising a valid concern.

Is it possible to check if his uncle's division did in fact liberate Ohrdruf? Liberation seems to be a term of art.

Orhdruf had been abandoned by the Nazis: pile of dead bodies, etc.

The uncle did not belong to the division which entered first in the camp. In fact, his division might have been miles from the camp at the time, and could still be viewed as having liberated Ohrdruf.

Why should one accept an AP's answer without checking with knowledgeable historians.

Wikipedia casts some doubt about the accuracy of the information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohr...rced_labor_camp

It was liberated on April 4, 1945, by the 4th Armored Division and the 355th Infantry Regiment of the 89th Infantry Division, U.S. Third Army. It was the first Nazi concentration camp liberated by the US Army.

When the soldiers of the 4th Armored Division entered the camp, they discovered piles of bodies, some covered with lime, and others partially incinerated on pyres. The ghastly nature of their discovery led General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, to visit the camp on April 12, with Generals George S. Patton and Omar Bradley. After his visit, Eisenhower cabled General George C. Marshall, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington, describing his trip to Ohrdruf

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwa...tslager_Ohrdruf

The German text mentions only the first group:

Am 5. April 1945 wurde der Truppenübungsplatz von der 4. amerikanischen Panzerdivision erobert, die in Ohrdruf ein Durchgangslager für entlassene russische Kriegsgefangene errichtete. Der spätere US-Präsident Dwight D. Eisenhower besuchte den Platz kurz darauf und wurde Augenzeuge der von den SS-Soldaten angelegten Massengräber.
cervantes | 05.28.08 - 10:27 am | #

[Fred Beloit]

That Southrun Values feller is quite funny: "We sure don’t want folk doing any thinking about the state of their country, economy, military, political system and wealth equality."

Note the "wealth equality". I don't know too many Southern communists, but I guess this is what one would be like. SV, bless your heart, there is one thing pretty certain in this world of very different cultures, and that is there is no such thing as "wealth equality", other than in the wet-dream lands of the audaciously hopeful and the empty promisers.

But back to the subject at hand, that is to say the BS symptoms and ignorance of geography, history, economics, and science demonstrated by Sen. Obama; we will see more of these weaknesses every time he opens his mouth. He is much better off sticking to the absurd platitudes and abstract generalities (pardon my redundancy) favored by the trools who come here.

[Tully]

I am in Kansas and in position to check both the census records and the 1947 published hardcopy history of the 89th, which includes rosters. I am off to do that right now.

In the meantime, I would note he had two great-uncles, not one. Neither one appear on the electronically available rosters of the 89th under the names CW Payne or RE Dunham. Nor does his grandfather S Payne.

http://stubbornfacts.us/politics/2008_election/breaking_which_obama_uncle_was_in_the_89th_infantry

Busted. It's entirely possible one of those three relatives served in theater and came back with tales of the camps, but to date not one single version of Obama' story has checked out when scrutinized.

JustADude, RE Dunham was drafted by a Kansas draft board (where he registered) but was living in Mound City CO when he called. Obama's known great-uncles in that branch were Ralph E Dunham and Charles W. Payne.

[Tully]

I am in Kansas and in position to check both the census records and the 1947 published hardcopy history of the 89th, which includes rosters. I am off to do that right now.

http://stubbornfacts.us/politics/2008_election/breaking_which_obama_uncle_was_in_the_89th_infantry

In the meantime, I would note he had two great-uncles, not one. Neither one appear on the electronically available rosters of the 89th under the names CW Payne or RE Dunham. Nor does his grandfather S Payne.

Busted. It's entirely possible one of those three relatives served in theater and came back with tales of the camps, but to date not one single version of Obama' story has checked out when scrutinized.

JustADude, RE Dunham was drafted by a Kansas draft board (where he registered) but was living in Mound City CO when he called. Obama's known great-uncles in that branch were Ralph E Dunham and Charles W. Payne.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Seriously this is all approaching stupid....Have you all become leftists over night or are you merely adapting their tactics? Does anyone think Uncle Ralph could have been with the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and joined the Red Army when WWII broke out? Well after Nazi's invaded USSR anyway. Who really thinks this is a matter of importance? Can you from memory sort out your own family history without some actual research? Frankly compared to "nukes locked in at 4th and Main, Anytown, USA" misquoting a family story ranks pretty low on my list of what a "lie" is. How about a discussion on the merits of Obie's plan to give vets a better GI Bill, etc not some misquote from a family legend.

[Fred Beloit]

Thanks JoeSky for advising all the libruls that Obama will be just another war-mongering president in the tradition of Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson. Thanks Scrap for reminding the libruls that Bush was a fighter pilot, one of the most dangerous jobs in the peacetime military. Thanks Lala, Sac, Kait, syn, cap, seek, Sam, Jorg, Me, and cerv for the education and for making the trools show by their mere repetition of years-old proven-false charges that they are just so many jackasses.

[bobInStamford]

Why does your stammering leader hate teh troops so much??

http://www.military.com/news/article/bush-threatens-veto-over-gi-bill-adds.html

Methinks Laura ran over the wrong boyfriend.

Semper Fi - for now!!!

[Fred Beloit]

Sorry to disagree with you, Wahoo, but this is along the same lines as Hillery's under fire story. As such, he deserves to be called on it. (Poor Dan Quale got ripped by the Left because he wouldn't be the winner in a food stuff spelling bee.) Ob is trying to link himself to a soldier in a war fought over 60 years ago. ("I come from a long line of military heroes," blah blah blah...) Obama is the one who should be spending his speaking opportunities providing details of his planned policies and actions IF elected.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"(Poor Dan Quale got ripped by the Left because he wouldn't be the winner in a food stuff spelling bee.) "

zackly Fred.....you'ns is acting just like leftists. Nothing to say, less to offer but vitriol.

[jharp]

"Seriously this is all approaching stupid....Have you all become leftists over night or are you merely adapting their tactics?"

Good one, Willie. I always knew you were one of the most common sense posters here.

I must disagree with you that these are tactics of the left. Quite to the contrary it was the right who mocked Senator Kerry's military service. To the point of wearing purple bandages during the Republican National Convention mocking his war injuries.

To me it was one of the disgraceful acts done as a whole by any political party.

And like you I don't give a dam if it turns out Obama was mistaken about his families military history. Let's stay focused on the issues.

And everyone is going to look pretty silly if it turns out he was accurate. And I don't understand why in the world one wouldn't just wait until the facts are known pass judgement.

Is this a new malady spreading. ODS.

[jharp]

"Obama is the one who should be spending his speaking opportunities providing details of his planned policies and actions IF elected."

He was, Fred.

He was using this as an opportunity to show he understood PTSD and that the sufferers needed care.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Why does your stammering leader hate teh troops so much??"

Glad to see you reference Mil.com there Boob. Pity you didn't actually read the article so you could run to one of your usual links to discredit the veto. Unless tyhe bill is totally and solely about finacial aid to the vets.....it should be vetoed, taken out to the steps o' the big house and ceremoniously burned.

[mike d]

most of the commenters here eager to excuse Obama would, i suspect, be ALL OVER any GOP candidate who made a similar gaffe with a similar number of still-open questions about whether such a liberator uncle ever even existed.

The comments at HuffPo/Kos/TPM/Media Matters/MSNBC/CNN would start at unalloyed derision and rapidly move to expressions of outright hatred. But since Obama is offically The Only Man Who Can Save America, he gets a comeplete and total pass on circumstanes that would already have crippled any GOP candidate.