Did Obama Give Hillary The Finger?

I've come to realize how unseasoned and occasionally brash is Barack Obama - not to mention his Not Ready To Be First Lady wife. I suspect the couple is quite different than the myth.

But did he actually give Hillary the finger as some suggest? You be the judge.

Comments

[Ms. Snarky Doucher (say DooSHAY)]

Mr. Beloit forgot a few compliments, I do believe. In an effort to assist you to improve, Mr. jharp, I would just like to add that you act like a muckraker, a poor wretch, a snob, a nihilist, a flaccid pacifist, a stupenagel, a hippie, a reefer fiend, a crank, a snot-nose, a lower intestine, a snoozer on guard duty, a fiance in a pink tuxedo, a gubber from Union Mills (now closed), a hayshaker, a goof, an eater of cabbage soup, a mutton head, an amateur clown, a bird on a wire, a jackanapes, a grape stomper, a minister without portfolio, and a panhandler.

[jharp]

What international treaties govern torture?

The United States is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. Geneva Convention III, adopted Aug. 12, 1949, prohibits mistreatment of prisoners of war, and Geneva Convention IV, also adopted Aug. 12, 1949, protects civilian populations in times of war.

In 1994, the U.S. also adopted the U.N. Convention against Torture, which defines torture as "any act by which severe pain, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted" to gain information, extract a confession, or as punishment. In addition, it requires state signatories to prevent acts of "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture."

[WAHOO WILLIE]

So basically making a man wear womens panties on his head is torture? Well, I guess it has something to do with the woman who pereviously wore said bloomers.

[Fred Beloit]

I hear you, Wahoo, but he act like dee bad mon as far as I can see.

[Fred Beloit]

You asked yourself this question, Harpo: "What international treaties govern torture?" I never asked it. I asked why do you, Harpo, feel waterboarding is torture.

[jharp]

OK Fred,

Try this.

Waterboarding is torture because we signed onto the treaties that say it is torture.

[Fred Beloit]

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020123.html

"First, what does it take to qualify as a prisoner of war? Article IV of the Geneva Convention states that members of irregular militias like al Qaeda qualify for prisoner-of-war status if their military organization satisfies four criteria.
[[Prisoners or unlawful combatants?]]

The criteria are: "(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; [and] (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

"Al Qaeda does not satisfy these conditions. Perhaps Osama bin Laden could be considered "a person responsible for his subordinates," although the cell structure of al Qaeda belies the notion of a chain of command. But in any event, al Qaeda members openly flout the remaining three conditions.

Al Qaeda members deliberately attempt to blend into the civilian population - violating the requirement of having a "fixed distinctive sign" and "carrying arms openly." Moreover, they target civilians, which violates the "laws and customs of war."

Thus, al Qaeda members need not be treated as prisoners of war."

[WAHOO WILLIE]

C'mon Fred the dude means well. To him being skinned alive and having water thrown in your face are the exact same thing. I mean he quoted the demomnrat party's expert on water torture. Who knows more about causing a defenseless human being a slow, agonizing, screeming for help, clawing the interior of a sinking car torturous drowning death than Teddy (hick-up) Kennedy?

Yeah, he failed to note that Ole 99 bottles of beer on the wall himself said it was "a different form of water torture" and also fails to note that the military used to water board pilots and spec ops as part of E&E training.

[Fred Beloit]

"To be sure, American courts might not have occasion to decide the question whether al Qaeda and Taliban captives are in fact unlawful combatants. That is because another Supreme Court decision - the 1950 ruling in Johnson v. Eisentrager - holds that enemy aliens who have not entered the United States are not entitled to access to our courts.

Accordingly, so long as the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are held at Guantanamo Bay and thus not deemed to have entered the U.S., their only route of appeal would appear to be within the Executive Branch. Put more bluntly, they will have only the procedural recourse the Administration allows them."

Same link.

[jharp]

"Being an accused terrorist is not synonymous with being an enemy combatant. Otherwise, the president could detain and hold anyone without charges simply by labeling him a member of al-Qaeda."

[jharp]

At the age of 19, Murat Kurnaz vanished into America’s shadow prison system in the war on terror. He was from Germany, traveling in Pakistan, and was picked up three months after 9/11. But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one.

I won’t excerpt the rest, because you really need to read the whole thing to grasp the horror of the five years that Kurnaz, a citizen of one of our most valued allies, went through in U.S. custody. He was tortured, denied counsel for three years, and kept in inhumane conditions, this despite the fact that shortly after he was detained his innocence was already determined. Not that it would have been justified to treat a guilty man this way, either. Due process is one of the cornerstones of America’s founding principles–one that is degrading every yea

[Fred Beloit]

Well, I guess Vlad the Impaler meant well too, along with Atilla, Ivan the Terrible, and all those other well-meaning folks. Not that Harpo is on the same low level with these chaps. He couldn't be; he isn't creative enough.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

" Guantanamo Bay and thus not deemed to have entered the U.S."
Even I question the legality of that. Personally I would like to see them brought to the US and allowed to freely roam Massachucetts until they get a fair trial. Look, just because they threw down their AKs and RPGs on a battlefield does not mnake them combatants. It's hard to make a living in the sandbox and one must be really quick to gather up discarded weapons for resale.

A young Marine told me about a really interesting use for Christmas tree lights in the making of IEDs. Of course a muslim carrying a string of Christmas tree lights, a gas can fuel of fertilizer and a "night jar" does *NOT* mean he is an enemy combatant.

[Fred Beloit]

One more of these endless questions, Harpo. How do you know that Kurnaz isn't lying? And what evidence is there that he DID NOT do certain things. He "vanished" into Pakistan's "shadow" countryside, did he not?

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I won’t excerpt the rest,"

Actually a link would have been well recieved. I imagine that there is no secondary source as to the validity of this sad tale.

[Fred Beloit]

Yes, Wahoo, and don't forget about those innocent "kids" in their early 20's with the alleged pipe bomb materials. They were making fire crackers for the 4th, as Moe and others assured us.

[jharp]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/60minutes/main3976928.shtml

[Fred Beloit]

Must go now. You know< Wahoo, I don't think Harpo knows how to produce a link. Wish he did. I would love to see who conducted the "trial" that found: "He was tortured, denied counsel for three years, and kept in inhumane conditions, this despite the fact that shortly after he was detained his innocence was already determined."

[Fred Beloit]

Or is it only Kurnaz, his lawyer, and left-wing space-alien believers making these claims.

[jharp]

"How do you know that Kurnaz isn't lying?"

And how do you know he isn't telling the truth? This Fred, is why we have a thing called the legal system and human rights used to guarantee things as trials, hearings, lawyers, etc.

"And what evidence is there that he DID NOT do certain things."

What eveidence is there that you DID NOT do certain things? The correct reasoning is what evidence is there that he DID certain things.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Fred: This Kurnaz story reminds me of something when I got my first, raggedy ass old boat......I was out too far and the evinrude conked out on me. Suddenly there was a storm and OMG was it was bigger than anything Cheney's Ninjas could ever create. I got banged on the head and I guess went o'er the gunnels. When I awoke I was surrounded by tiny little people, no bigger than my thumb I tell you. They had tied me to the sand with little stakes and fishing twine but being so much larger, escape was easier. That's when I met my Rastafarian friend. It was a Friday and since I didn't understand Portugese, I took to calling him by that name...Friday.

Ah, enough for now I'll tell you about the flying Dutchman and ghost pirates another time.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

CBS news? Now, was it them or NBC that was caught putting little ignitors on pick-up trucks when they were "proving" how easily they caught fire? No, no it was CBS who fired Dan Blather for falsifying government documents and claiming them as evidence........

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I see logic isn't your strong suit either."

Logic, my friend, comes from considering a sides of an argument *before* drawing a conclusion. Not from knee jerk reactions to every wisp of jettsom and latching upon anything that denegrates owns own government.

[jharp]

Willie,

You are denial in defending the actions of our present administration and it is hurting America.

I have little doubt you are well aware of what they have done to our country.

And it is stunning that you wish it to continue.

[jharp]

"Logic, my friend, comes from considering a sides of an argument *before* drawing a conclusion."

Willie, your hanging around Fred too much as some his stupid is wearing off onto you.

"How do you know that Kurnaz isn't lying? And what evidence is there that he DID NOT do certain things."

Fred's stupid remark had nothing to do with the argument. The debate is over due process and torture.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Oh no my friend, there's no defending anything here. Unless it's truth and the truth is: This isn't new and it's been a long road. I've got more than plenty to disagree with the current government but I have disagreed with every one of them since Johnson (that is when I began paying attention) From a student of history perspective I find none i would fully agree with. Think about it, only a fool would be in 100% agreeance with any government since the founders failed to address slavery when they wrote the constitution. I dont jump on every band wagon that comes down the pike either. No black helicopters and no levee blowing ninjas for me. It's illogical. Just as is believing much of what the news media feeds us. Sooner or later the media will report on something that you know about personally....large or small...and you will see right through their BS and ineptitude. Same with some govt press conference. Here's a little exercise in locic for you. You thought Bush was just awful, horrid, surely a child of the devil because he belonged to Skull and Bones..........Then you learned that John Kerry did too. Logic would say he's just as evil........unless one is a partisan sheep. There are tons of examples yet the BDS glasses limit certain colors. It's no different with the last admin and some on the right. Clinton did a lot of good things but some wouldn't admit it if you paid them. Did you do your own taxes this year? Loads of new limitations on deductions.........so much for republicans and lower taxes huh?
But you go right ahead marching to your one sided drum. I'll rest in the knowledge that the forest is right there among the trees.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Logic, my friend, comes from considering a(ll) sides of an argument *before* drawing a conclusion."

"Willie, your hanging around Fred too much as some his stupid is wearing off onto you."

My key board seems to drop a lot of letters. So, what you're saying is that in your discussion of "due process & torture" That the veracity of the example *YOU* used is not part of the equation? Guy claims to have been falsely held and tortured, yet it somehow does not apply to the discussion on just that. Interesting.....illogical as hell....but interesting.

[jharp]

"So, what you're saying is that in your discussion of "due process & torture" That the veracity of the example *YOU* used is not part of the equation?"

No. I was referring to Fred's comment below being irrelevant. And dumb.

"How do you know that Kurnaz isn't lying? And what evidence is there that he DID NOT do certain things."

And

[jharp]

So then, Willie.

What is it you like about the republicans these days?

You clearly are in favor of McSame who has promised to continue the same failed policies.

Just wondering what you could like about that.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"How do you know that Kurnaz isn't lying? And what evidence is there that he DID NOT do certain things."

Dude, it was YOU who used Kurnaz as evidence of lack of due process and torture. It is very legitimate to ask whether his allegations are proven! Now, had he said 'how do you know that the "US" has done any water boarding?'...that would have been a stupid question. THINK MAN!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"You clearly are in favor of McSame"

If you can give me ONE, just one example of my support for JohnnyMac. I will be happy to tell you what I think of the repugnicans.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

Need more time? We can wait until Pookie the LLama is here to help you look. SHe seems to think she knows who I'll vote for, something my wife doesn't even know.

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo, excuse me but isn't it you who comes on here every single day and makes nasty accusations about the President? It is you, is it not? Just say, "Yeah, it is me" or since you are a distinguished grammarian and lecturer in Logic, just say "Yeah, it is I."

But do you say, "The President might have done A, B, C"? Of course you don't. You convict him without a trial. That's OK though, he's only the President. But Kurnaz, who likes to disappear into the wilds of Pakistan, oh no. He is innocent. We must not even suspect this wonderful victim, this saintly innocent.

Here are some of your convictions of G. Bush without a trial, my darling Harpo:

-"You mean for pointing out the blown $4 trillion, warrantless wiretaps, no habeas corpus, 4,100 dead soldiers for nothing, ignoring the warnings for the worst terrorist attack in U.S history, monetary policy that created the worst housing crisis since the depression, outing of a CIA agent, and more."
-"Oh, and also torture. It's so hard to keep track of everything."
-"And the blown $4 trillion, torture, 4,100 dead soldiers, warrantless wiretaps, $112 a barrel oil, skyrocketing foreclosues, devalued dollar, American's without health insurance, and our current economy just doesn't tickle my funny bone."

Not very consistent are you, Harpo? Not very logical either to condemn someone for doing what you always do yourself, and in spades. Honk honk.

[Fred Beloit]

More logic and consistency from Harpo Major:
-"Oh, and destruction of the dollar and $112 a barrel oil.
Heckuva job, Bushie. And your GOP cohorts."

[jharp]

"Dude, it was YOU who used Kurnaz as evidence of lack of due process and torture. It is very legitimate to ask whether his allegations are proven!"

The point is he never was charged, brought before a judge, nor had a lawyer. How would we ever know what the truth is.

As to whether his allegations are proven. The FBI and U.S. intelligence openly admit he was held for 4 years without due process.

It is you who is not thinking.

[Fred Beloit]

More insane attacks and accusations against the President, who is the only person in the world who Harpo feels has no right to be thought innocent until proved guilty (excepting, naturally, Cheney and Rove):

-"Our health care system is twice to three times more expensive than the rest of the industrialized world.
Single payer will lower the cost.
Granted, we have the interest on the $4 trillion the GOP pissed away and (that alone is $200 billion per year) forever. But I figure between ending the occupation of Iraq, single payer health care, and ending the corporate welfare to Wall Street, spending will at least slow down."

[jharp]

"You convict him without a trial."

Fred, you are a moron. Do you not see the difference between my holding an opinion and the the government holding you in a jail cell.

[Fred Beloit]

I forgot. Harpo sometimes convicts the entire Republican party without a trial. No understanding of innocence for the GOP of THEFT:

-"Please think before you post. It is distracting to important issues.
Like how much the GOP has stolen from us."

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo, you mean I have a right to an opinion? I didn't realize that. Well, my opinion is Kurnaz is all Muzzied up and is a liar.

[jharp]

"If you can give me ONE, just one example of my support for JohnnyMac. I will be happy to tell you what I think of the repugnicans."

So you'll be voting for the democrat then? That's good.

For being anti republican you sure defend many of their policies.

[jharp]

"Harpo, you mean I have a right to an opinion? I didn't realize that. Well, my opinion is Kurnaz is all Muzzied up and is a liar."

So then charge him and let justice take it's course.

Get it now?

[Fred Beloit]

Sami al-Arian is all Muzzied up and he too is a liar. That's my opinion.

[Fred Beloit]

Are you going to have the "GOP" arrested? And Bush as well? Go to it Mr. Patriot. Prefer charges.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"So you'll be voting for the democrat then? That's good."
For being anti republican you sure defend many of their policies.

Damn, gave yo almost an hour and you could find nothing, so you came up with this: "For being anti republican you sure defend many of their policies." of course, no need to explain. Geeze man, do you ever have anything in your evidence bag before you go to trial???????

I understand that anyone who is not in 100% agreement with you is totally against you..

[Fred Beloit]

Harpo must be busy writing his charges against Bush and the rest of the GOP for everything in the world Harpo doesn't like.

[Fred Beloit]

I hope Harpo waits until Monday to prefer charges. Sunday would not be the best day for an activity of that nature. I wonder if he will have to go all the way to Indianapolis to
prefer his charges.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Harpo must be busy writing"
Him just a little confused Fred. He's looking to find where I approve of torturing people because I don't consider water boarding torture. It means little to him that it is an opinion having nothing to do with what a murderous senator says or some CBS news report. Now, electrocution, knee capping, breaking bones, even whipping are torture. See after all of the crap these people have done to innocents around the world, dribbling a little water over their heads doesn't matter much to me. Doesn't mean I support or decry the method, simply means I dont give a sh**.

[Fred Beloit]

I understand you perfectly, Wahoo. You are mostly pretty easy to understand.

[jharp]

Gentleman,

I am an ordinary citizen and cannot bring charges or convict anyone.

Though you two would like to have the President decide who goes to jail and who doesn't. (Without being charged and without a trial and without a lawyer.)

I 100% disagree with you.

[Fred Beloit]

A lot of lefties are as busy as Harpo. Unlike Harpo though, who seems to heart the Kurnaz case most, these lefties are trying to restore Sami Al-Arian to victimhood. Good luck with that marketing effort!