Ugly Politics

I can't remember a time when looking at politics was so ugly.

I may go back to blogging politics and crime. At least crime was interesting. We've been beating the same themes on both the Republican and Democrat side this year, it's getting boring as hell for me to blog.

Comments

[jharp]

When do think it started?

El Rushbo have anything to do with it?

My 2 cents. Talk radio had everything to do with it.

And it started with the attacks on Bill Clinton.

[seekeronos]

Indeed, it makes me wonder sometimes if we should just give up on this whole "representative republican democracy thing" and petition Her Majesty to receive us back into the British Empire, or perhaps ask HRH Georg Friedrich (the pretender to the German Imperial and Prussian Royal crowns) to rule over us and have done with it already.

[seekeronos]

"--- My 2 cents. Talk radio had everything to do with it. ---"

Ah, yes. Because we "need" the Fairness Doctrine™ to keep those nasty radio talkers silenced.

All that commentary that the Liberal MSM so hated, so that nobody heard anything but what the socialist lefties wanted us to hear.

[jharp]

"Liberal MSM"

Biggest bunch of baloney in the last decade.

Yeah, that liberal media really rallied against the invasion of Iraq.

[seekeronos]

"--- Yeah, that liberal media really rallied against the invasion of Iraq. ---"

Perhaps because advertising revenue and the popular outrage over the events of 9-11 were still relatively fresh on everyone's minds, including the left-leaning MSM.

FWIW, even that stalwart socialist Hillary Clinton was "schnookered" by patroitic fervour (as well as any logical thoughts she may have had about getting re-elected for her next cycle).

[jharp]

"including the left-leaning MSM"

Yeah those lefties really hurt the neocons on the illegal wiretapping of americans too. hint - (sat on it for 1 year until the election was over)

and imprisoning an American with no lawyer, no charges, no trial (Jose Padilla) - they were all over that one too.

And the top rated Cable News - Fox News are all lefties

Put the bong away.

[templar knight]

jharp, WTF are you talking about? The VAST MAJORITY of the media has been liberal for years, and any honest person would admit it. So much for your bragging about how truthful you are. Jesus, man, all you have to do is look at the PARTY affiliation of the media. 75% are Democratic.

Oh, yeah, when it's a Democrat who is charged with a crime or indicted, we have to play the game of guess the party affiliation. My proof, Elliot Spitzer and Kwame Kilpatrick. Why is it that when Republicans are charged with crimes, it is made quite evident what their party affiliation is, whereas when it is Democrats you will be hard pressed to find the party affiliation? So much for your specious arguement.

[jharp]

"The VAST MAJORITY of the media has been liberal for years"

And I say not. Though I will agree the right wingers have been selling this concept for many years.

ABC owned by Disney - some real liberals there

NBC - owned by GE - extemely large liberal defense contractor

Fox News - #1 rated liberal cable news

Rush Limbaugh - #1 rated liberal talk radio host

Talk radio - Hannity, Savage, Ingraham, Boortz, Beck, O Reilly, Prager, Medved - a real bunch of lefties

Wall Street Journal - owned by the liberal Richard Murdock

[templar knight]

Hmm...Jose Padilla, convicted in Federal Court of various and sundry crimes and sentenced to prison. Is that the Jose Padilla your talking about?

Illegal wiretapping? Has there been a court ruling I haven't heard about? I'm not familiar with anyone being charged or convicted of illegal wiretapping lately, but I don't listen to the news 24/7, so clue me in.

[templar knight]

Hahaha, you're either stupid or obtuse, or probably both, but you're not honest, jharp, so never say you are again.

ABC-liberal
NBC-liberal
CBS-liberal
CNN-liberal
CNBC-Leftist
Time-liberal
Newsweek-liberal
Rolling Stone-Leftist
Wapo-Leftist
NYT-Leftist

Need I go on? I think not. All the proof any HONEST person needs.

[IslamoLlama]

"-- Ah, yes. Because we "need" the Fairness Doctrine™ to keep those nasty radio talkers silenced. --"

Woo! Look at that man jump to conclusions! How much ground did you cover to get from "Right Wing Radio is full of crap" to "Fairness Doctrine in '08!"?

It would be nice if we didn't have such intense media consolidation. I'm not entirely clear WHY a single company should be allowed to own more than 40% of the radio or television stations in a market. Freeing up the marketplace from media consolidation would be a nice first step towards diversity of opinion. How many stations does Clear Channel really need Rush to be on? One would think libertarian-minded individuals would be horrified of a single entity controlling everything broad casted in a 50 mile radius.

Of course, if you are going to cry big fat crocodile tears of the "Fairness Doctrine" it would behove you to quit bitching about "too many liberal professors" or "too many liberal news anchors"? How can you - in one breath - complain that the MSM is too liberal, and that we should have more FOX News style reporting, while bemoaning the "Fairness Doctrine" for stealing conservative air time?

In the war of ideas, conservatives can't seem to win unless they cut your mic. William F. Buckley really is dead.

[Miklo]

For now, things are stale.

The SAME loop, over and over and over of Jeremiah Wright doing his "riding dirty" rant from the podium...

Where do I yell, U-N-C-L-E to make this STOP!!!!".

We know. We get it. Wright is a black separatist who blames whites for everything under the sun.

Next...

Can't we move on now??

[Miklo]

Cost of a Monday morning Dallas Morning News article conjecturing about the rise and fall of Barack Obama's candidacy... 50 cents

DVD of Jeremiah Wright's Collected "hate rants"...$14.95

Watching Billary face the fact that they are not the "slam dunk" Democratic nominee they had projected as a forgone conclusion... PRICELESS!

[jharp]

Yes, that Jose Padilla.

The American citizen arrested in May 2002 and imprisoned without charges, without a lawyer, and without a trial until Jan 2006.

That's almost 4 years. No Charges. Imprisoned. An American citizen.

Why do you hate the Constitution?

[jharp]

templar,

I disagree.

NBC's parent company is a defense contractor for god's sake.

Time - you mean the one one who employs the liberal Mr. Wrong About Everything Bill Kristol.

Too tough to debate in a comments thread.

And to be honest the only one I'd agree with is the Rolling Stone.

Some of the others I might goes as far as neutral but not really.

NYT was the publisher of Judith "lie us into a war" Miller after all.

[templar knight]

No trial, but many hearings from judges, as I recall. Designated as an enemy combatant, working on a nuclear dirty bomb, and given due process many times. More than Randy Weaver's wife and son, who were shot to death by Clintonista agents, so much for due process. Their due process was a bullet. I suppose you wouldn't have had a problem if Padilla had been shot in the back. Why do you hate America and it's Constitution, jharp?

[templar knight]

And let me refute a few of your assertions.

Judith Miller, one of how many reporters at the NYTs? So much for that.

NBC and MSNBC, both liberal/leftist. Easy to prove, as story selection and content is liberal 80-90% of the time. If your conclusion is that one reporter or columnist out of hundreds make a publication or network conservative, that is just silly, and you know it.

[IslamoLlama]

"-- Need I go on? I think not. All the proof any HONEST person needs. --"

Well, since you decided to label them as liberal, I guess we can't argue with you. Certainly such esteemed reporters as Judy Miller and Robert Novak - from the NYT and CNN respectively - just drip hippie-liberalism. And with editorial columnists like William Kristol and Karl Rove, Newsweek might as well change its name to Pravda.

I could go through each of your "liberal" rags (except, perhaps Rolling Stone) and tear your assertion to shreds. Nancy Grace, much? Glenn Freak'n Beck? I'm simply praying that you didn't lump MSNBC in with regular NBC or I'll be required to point out that they employee an ex-GOP Congressman as a face of their network (Tucker Carlson too, but you might not have noticed him unless you were in his audience of barely 10,000).

You are so full of shit it boggles the mind. I question whether you even own a TV, much less cable, if only because it would be easier to believe you're just that misinformed rather than lying out your ass.

[jharp]

templar knight,

"Designated as an enemy combatant."

I'm sure you going to love President Obama having the power to detain any American indefinitely without charges and without a lawyer. Just because the Presidents says so.

"working on a nuclear dirty bomb"

Not. The neocons used their best weapon, fear, to scare us out of one of most precious rights.

"and given due process many times"

A stupid remark even for you. Do you even know what due process is?

Being charged? Being told what you are being charged with? Getting a trial within 60 days?

Any of that ring a bell?

Why do you hate America?

[jharp]

templar,

Sorry I missed this one.

"Illegal wiretapping? Has there been a court ruling I haven't heard about? I'm not familiar with anyone being charged or convicted of illegal wiretapping"

Are you aware of the Protect American Act being hung up in Congress over providing retroactive immunity for the telecoms that broke the law.

The law that Bush has promised to veto if it didn't contain a provision providing immunity to the telecoms.

No, of course no laws were broken, that's why we need to enact a law that immunizes the law breakers.

Are you really that unaware of what has been going on?

[jharp]

More from our "Liberal Media"

Wall Street Journal

"Five years on, few Iraq myths are as persistent as the notion that the Bush Administration invented a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Yet a new Pentagon report suggests that Iraq’s links to world-wide terror networks, including al Qaeda, were far more extensive than previously understood."

The truth.

"The U.S. military's first and only study looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two, according to a military report released by the Pentagon."

Although other groups, like the September 11 commission, have concluded that there was no link between Hussein and al Qaeda, the Pentagon was able to analyze much more information.

[Bill in AZ]

Dan, I hope you don't quit blogging...

poor jharp... so put upon by Rush, Ann, Laura...

All you progressives have to counter the
Right-Wing Noise Machine is

(stolen from http://blamebush.typepad.com/)

ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, TBS, NPR, CNN, BBC, HBO, HSN, MTV, VH1, Showtime, The Abortion Channel, Gore TV, Reuters, The Associated Press, Time Magazine, Newsweek, The New Republic, the Nation, The New Yorker, TV Guide, People Magazine, Teen People, Us Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, Rolling Stone, Oprah Magazine, Ladies Home Journal, Woman's Day, The Advocate, Esquire, Vogue, Cosmopolitian, Humpty Dumpty, Architectural Digest, Cat Fancy, Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, Swank, Sugar Tits Quarterly, the Harvard Perspective, High Times, The New
York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Seattle Times, The Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Seattle Weekly, The Boston Globe, The Village Voice, The San Francisco Chronicle, The San Francisco Examiner, USA Today, The Washington Post, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Arizona Daily Star, The Anniston Star , The Decatur Daily, Montgomery Advertiser, The Tuscaloosa News, Anchorage Daily News Arkansas Time, Tuscon Daily Star, The Alameda Times-Star, Contra Costa Times, The Los Angeles Daily News, The Fresno Bee, Marin Independent Journal, Merced Sun-Star, The Modesto Bee, The Monterey County Herald, The Oakland Tribune, La Opinion, The Santa Rose Press Democrat, The Sacramento Bee, San Jose Mercury News, San Mateo County Times, Santa Cruz Sentinel, The Valejo Times-Herald, The Eureka Times Standard, The Ventura County Star, Aspen Daily News, The Boulder Daily Camera, Durango Herald, Fort Collins Coloradoan, Greeley Daily Tribune, The Stamford Advocate, The Wilmington News Journal, Bradenton Herald, Daytona Beach News-Journal, Florida Today, The Gainesville Sun, The Miami Herald, Orlando Sentinel, The Palm Beach Post, St Petersburg Times, Sarasota Herald-Tribune, South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Treasure Coast News/Press-Tribune, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, The Macon Telegraph, The Honolulu Advertiser, Honolulu Star-Bulletin, Bonner County Daily Bee, The Idaho Statesman, Chicago Defender, Chicago Sun-Times, Edwardsville Intelligencer,Rockford Register, Lafayatte Journal and Courier, The Des Moines Register, Iowa City Press-Citizen, Quad City Times, The Storm Lake Tribune, The Hutchinson News, Lexington Herald-Leader, The Louisville Courier-Journal, Teen Lexington Herald-Leader, Owensboro Messenger-Inquirer, The Shreveport Times, Bangor Daily News. the Kennebec Journal, Portland Press Herald, The Baltimore Sun, The Berkshire Eagle, The Framingham MetroWest Daily News, Milford Daily News. The Springfield Republican, The New Bedford Standard-Times, the Worcester Telegram & Gazette, The Argus-Press, The
Bay City Times, The Battle Creek Enquirer, the Detroit Free Press, The Flint Journal, the Lansing State Journal, Livingston County Daily Press & Argus, The Muskegon Chronicle, Parasites Weekly, Petoskey News-Review, The Saginaw News, the Port Huron Times Herald, Traverse City Record-Eagle, Duluth News Tribune, The Mankato Free Press, St. Cloud Times, the Columbia Daily Tribune, The Kansas City Star, St. Louis American, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Springfield News-Leader, Billings Gazette, Las Vegas Mercury, the Las Vegas Sun, the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Nevada Appeal, the Reno Gazette-Journal, the Concord Monitor, The Keene Sentinel, the Portsmouth Herald, The Nashua Telegraph, the Lebanon-Hanover Valley News, The Bergen Record, the Burlington County Times, the Bridgewater Courier News, the Camden Courier-Post, The Vineland Daily Journal, the Parsippany Daily Record, The Jersey Journal, The Gloucester County Times, The Hackensack Record, the Newark Star-Ledger The Trenton Times, the Albuquerque Tribune, The Santa Fe New Mexican, The Buffalo News: "News for Discerning Buffalo", the Oneonta Daily Star, The Ithaca Journal The White Plains Journal-News, The Corning Leader, Newsday, The Glen Falls Post-Star, the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, the Elmira Star-Gazette, the Staten Island Advance, the Albany Times-Union, Willie the Wino's Grand Central Station Restroom Scribblings, the Asheville Citizen Times, The Charlotte Observer, the Elizabeth City Daily Advance, The Greenville Daily Reflector, The Raleigh News & Observer, the Greensboro News & Record, The Southern Pines Pilot, the Wilimgton Star-News, The Bismarck Tribune, the Grand Forks Herald, the Akron Beacon Journal, The Toledo Blade, the Dayton Daily News, the Zanesville Times Recorder, The Daily Astorian, the East Oregonian, the Medford Mail Tribune, the Portland Oregonian, The Eugene Register-Guard, the Salem Statesman Journal, The Coos Bay World, The Beaver County Times, The Bucks County Courier Times, the Wilkes-Barre
Citizen's Voice, The Doylestown Intelligencer, the Uniontown Herald-Standard, The Allentown Morning Call, the Washington Observer-Reporter, The Philadelphia Daily News, The Philadelphia Inquirer, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Wilkes-Barre Times Leader, the Anderson Independent-Mail, The Myrtle Beach Sun News, The Memphis Commercial-Appeal, The Jackson Sun, Nashville Scene, The Tennessean, The Berkeley Daily Planet, Berkeley Voice, The Berkeleyan, ¡Berkemundo!, The Baytown Sun (11,374), the Corpus Christi Caller-Times, the Lone Star Iconoclast, the Longview News-Journal, The Lufkin Daily News, the Waco Tribune-Herald, the Bennington Banner, the Brattleboro Reformer, The Burlington Free Press, the Rutland Herald, The Barre-Montpelier Times Argus, the Newport Daily Press, The Roanoke Times, The Virginian-Pilot, The Everett, The Olympian, The Tacoma News Tribune, The Bremerton Sun, the Tri-City Herald, the Walla Walla Union-Bulletin, the Boston Phoenix, the Charleston Gazette, the Huntington Herald-Dispatch, Howard Stern, the Madison Capital Times, The Green Bay News-Chronicle, the Racine Journal Times, the Kenosha News, the La Crosse Tribune, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, The Sheboygan Press, The Wausau Daily Herald, The Guardian, The Independent, the Paris Daily Snivel, Der Spiegel, Democracy Now. The Huffington Post, The Progressive Review, Alternet, Dissident Voice, AntiWar.com, Common Dreams, Truthout.org, MoveOn.org, TomPaine.com, Counterpunch, The People's Kool-Aid, BlameBush!, Mother Jones, High Times, The Progressive, New Internationalist, Multinational Monitor, Covert Action Quarterly, The American Prospect, Dollars and Sense, The Progressive Populist, The Weekly Standard, New Left Review, Pacifica Radio, Progressive Mind, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, YouTube, Marvel Comics, The Weekly World News, Indymedia, DailyKos, Wonkette, DemocraticUnderground, The Prairie Home Companion, Coast to Coast with George Noory, Pravda, Granma, and Al Jazeera.

[jharp]

Bill in AZ,

Boy, Bill, that was real zinger. How do you come up with such well researched thoughtful posts?

If you are any representation of the state of our educated we are even more screwed than I thought.

Please, for the sake of our country, quit taking the limp dicked drug addict Limbaugh seriously. He open admits that it is only entertainment.

And you still don't get it.

God help us.

[BobInStamford]

Like you rednecks even know how to read a newspaper. Congratulations on your milestone, btw.

Semper Fi!

[templar knight]

Anything to the right of Stalin would be right-wing to you leftist stooges. And one conservative and dozens of liberals and leftists make something conservative, according to our resident leftist shitheads. You left-wing nuts have outdone yourselves on this post.

Bob, you're a sorry piece of shit.

[jharp]

templar,

I would think opposing views would be welcomed and encouraged. It's a chance to look at things how others do and possibly learn. Or have your own views further reinforced.

I, for one, have learned from my visits here. Not necessarily what you'd like to hear but I am more convinced than ever of the thickheadedness and denial of the truth from the right wingers.

And for that, I thank Dan Riehl. I hope you learned something too.

[cindi]

so much for learning hey harp

[templar knight]

Yes, I've learned, also. There is no way to cooperate with you people, no way to reach any consensus. That is why Obama, Clinton or whatever Democrat wins the election will have no more success than Bush. Because you people can't compromise, can't even see small truths. You leftists are deluded. There is something wrong with your minds, and I hold up BobinStamford as proof, although there are many others almost as bad as him who post here, including the MoeLlama aka Zifnab. There is no more hateful, cowardly, sorry POS on Earth than Bob, and not one of you who have posted here have ever dared to confront the sorry bastard. That says quite a lot about you leftists. Frankly, I can't stomach your sorry asses. Good day and good riddance.

[jharp]

templar,

I think Bob is simply handing the right wingers some of their own medicine.

Think of mocking Senator Kerry's purple hearts with band aids, calling us America haters, al Qaeda sympathizers, traitors, socialists, and there is even a book "Liberal Fascism".

I think what you call compromise is more clearly called giving me my way.

Face it. The right wingers have controlled Congress since 92, the presidency since 2000, and the supreme court since I don't know when.

And have effed things up beyond belief.

[Darth Malice]

Hi Dan,Templer and friends(even Bob)Greetings from Southern Iraq......I am glad everything is in tumult in the Dem political world.Maybe the Mac has a shot even though he may go ahead and endorse Obama and apologise for even running againt him.That being said I will vote for him even if he hates me as a conservative.Obama and the beast will be the death of the War against Radical Islam(Is there any other kind of Islam)So hold your nose and vote for John Kerry's wanna be running mate.

[syn]

Greetings to you too Darth Malice!

Yes indeed the inflammatory quagmire in The Dem party is really burning down their house. I plan to vote for you and your mission so it's McCain. Plus, I see how much emotional madness jharp has invested in Bush so I think it will be fabulous for jharps nerves if McCain gets in the White House; I know jharp will appreciate my contribution to his mental health, it's all jharp has to live for.

That said; Dan, you can give up now just when the wicked witches are melting.

[syn]

jharp

Liberal Fascism is not a book, it's a progressive movement which supports Margaret Sanger's "Negro Project"; it's not my fault that you're evil jharp.

[templar knight]

Darth, good day to you. Yes, I will vote for McCain myself, but who knows how everything will play out. In any event, stay safe.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I, for one, have learned from my visits here. Not necessarily what you'd like to hear but I am more convinced than ever of the thickheadedness and denial of the truth from the right wingers."

jharp no one here is fooled by your supposed "open mindedness". You came here, as do your friends, with your mind made up that all that is wrong with the country, it's policies and the fact that the sky isn't "sky blue" is occured in the last 7 years. There is no discussion, no comprimise, no looking at anything from any different angle. I question whether any of you people realize that not a single one of you holds an independent thought? Hell no, they all come out of the same playbook!! It's sort of freightening when you think about a group of people so in lock step and frankly too bone headed to see their own errors and missteps. When one makes statements like "Face it. The right wingers have controlled Congress since 92, the presidency since 2000, and the supreme court since I don't know when. And have effed things up beyond belief." Frankly, you sound a bit stupid, at least ignorant of what's been going on in government for far too long. Go on genius, go and vote in lock step without being able to really back up the claims of your "rich, white, guy" and his ULTIMO power, then blaming it on congress when it suits you. You and those like you, yes, I mean right and left, who think they have all the answers and are willing to back a candidate almost blindly.......are the problem. It will never change and so we deserve what we get.

[Fred Beloit]

I think Harpo is the one to make politics dull, dull, dull. That is because Harpo is dull, dull, dull. Another troll talking-points repeater. All he does is make accusations. This is an easy tactic requiring no real work. Like this:

-This is the second time the Left has taken sides with this countries' enemies, Iraq/Afghanistan and Vietnam. Twice told traitors.
-Al Franken is as much a war criminal as self-accusing war criminal John Kerry. He is the modern Tokyo Rose.
-The reason Fox News is so hated by the Left is that it is the only major TV news outlet that is objective. The rest are way out in Harpo/nitwit country.
-Obama has studied under master racist Wright and is his top student. Wright is Master; Barack is Blaster.
-Harpo and his acolytes who come here to support him, like IslamoMoe, are so unhinged over George Bush that, even though they know better, they refuse to admit Congress's role in funding the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. They pretend Bush has the power of the purse.
-Even though they know better, the trolls claim that somehow the wars are illegal. They claim the UN, a corrupt and ponderous bureaucratic pacaderm, has some kind of sovereign power that places it above the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court. Gee, I don't remember an amendment to the constitution mentioning the UN as a power above the U.S. This is simply silly.

[templar knight]

Willie, top of the day to you. You're right, of course. As an example, we have billions of barrels of oil in Alaska, yet can't recover it due to political infighting, and the price of oil is $100 a barrel. Insanity is how I would describe it. We all know that a goodly part of the profit that is made on middle eastern oil is being sent to terrorists, or is financing madrasses that are radicalizing the young men in the Middle East, many of whom will become terrorists or will support terror. And now we see the radicals turning their attention to Africa, where numerous mosques are being built by the Wahhabists. Very troubling, as many parts of Africa are already in turmoil.

And I'm not excusing the Republicans who have been in power for the past 8 years. The energy problem in the US was solvable, but again, the polarization of the electorate prevents any cooperation on the problems that we face, so nothing gets done. We all know, for example, that Social Security is a waiting time bomb, yet even modest changes proposed by Bush set off a firestorm of protest and misinformation. Nothing got done, and the problem has worsened. Medicare, same thing.

Let's look at our energy crisis, Willie. We're importing about 8 million bopd, which is costing us about $800,000,000 per/day. That cannot be sustained over a long period of time, mainly because sending that amount of capital out of the country will do two things. First, it will cause a huge trade deficit, which will and has undermined the value of the dollar, which will lead to inflation. Second, at some point, the capital that is needed to fuel the economy will begin to dry up as more and more of it is being sent overseas.

What's the solution, Willie? Well, actually, it's rather simple. The science and technology already exist, it's the lack of infrastructure that is the major problem. First, ANWR must be opened up for oil and gas production. It can be done, the science exists to do it without causing any signifigant pollution. Second, energy conservation in the form of some legislation will have to be passed. It should have a sunset clause, for instance, when certain specific targets have been reached. Third, more constuction of nuclear plants should be allowed. I believe France produces all its electricity from nuclear power plants. Fourth, the government should finance the constuction of infrastucture for major wind farms that could and should be built right now from No. Dakota to Texas. I realize that wind turbines are being built as I speak, but much more needs to be done, and quickly. Fifth, the US is blessed with tremendous supplies of coal and shale oil. The technology exists to convert coal into cleaner energy, and to recover oil from shale, and the government should intervene with a program on par with the Manhattan Project.

But none of this will happen, Willie, because just like you said, one side thinks it has all the answers and will never compromise.

[seekeronos]

"--- But none of this will happen, Willie, because just like you said, one side thinks it has all the answers and will never compromise. ---"

Hammer, meet nailhead.

There are billions of tonnes of methane hydrates waiting to be harvested on the floors of the oceans withon our territorial waters and much more in international water we could harvest; ANWR is untapped; offshore oil along the coasts of the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic seaboard are untapped.

France (a nation slightly smaller than Texas, but nearly three times the population) generates upwards of 80% of its electricity from nuclear technology, and as TK said, an ENORMOUS pile of shale oil we could harvest if needed, to say nothing of very large quantities of coal.

As for the collection of publications above referenced by BillinAZ:

I'm willing to believe that BobInStamford is a very faithful subscriber (with his parents' money, of course) to "Parasites Weekly". Hah!

[jharp]

You guy's would be funny if you weren't serious.

You act is if these problems cropped up overnight.

YOUR party has been in charge and has done nothing, except of course start a war that has further bled our treasury and increased the price of oil.

Then as Americans wise up and you're about to lose power you blame the democrats for not compromising.

Give me a break.

[templar knight]

"You act as if this problem cropped up overnight. YOUR party has been in charge..."

Uh, I'm a registered Democrat, dummy. And if you had bothered to read my comment, I specifically said I held Republicans as responsible as anyone.

And no, these problems have been around since 1973, and every president and congress since that time is culpable.

But, of course, no solution from the Left, just getting into power is your plan.

[templar knight]

Oh, by the way, Willie, I rest my case. It was too easy.

[seekeronos]

"--- You act is if these problems cropped up overnight. ---"

A lot of the basis for the problems we face developed under Clinton's term, and under Bush '41 to some fair extent.

"--- YOUR party has been in charge and has done nothing, except of course start a war that has further bled our treasury and increased the price of oil. ---"

War-related scarcity of oil in its own right is not the sole cause of high prices; it has a great deal to do with inflationary spending without a parallel rise in the taxation rates for top brackets/capital gains rates for the top investment income recipients, and the bursting of a nightmarish bubble that is set to make the Japanese Asset Bubble of the early 1990's look like a period of miraculous growth by comparison.

But that has little to do with the more egregious violations conducted by the POTUS of starting an unconstitutional, undeclared war, complicity by way of ignorance by both the 108th and 109th (GOP majority) and through the timidity of the 110th (Democratic majority) congresses.

"--- Then as Americans wise up and you're about to lose power you blame the democrats for not compromising. Give me a break. ---"

Indeed? The Dems have started or substantially escalated their own grievous wars in times past. And yes, I'll agree that the GOP has utterly squandered the trust of the electorate, and the soft power that we once held that was largely gained under the wiser stewardship of Reagan.

I have compassion for the greater part of the world that is not America, and would see them saved to the Gospel of Christ, but our first responsibility as a nation is to our own house first.

I am not so certain if we will be able to withdraw from Iraq with honour, within either my lifetime or my children's lifetimes; the threat of a 100 year occupation sounds both Orwellian and most injurious to the wealth of our nation's middle classes.

[Fred Beloit]

Here is Harpo at his absolute best. He reads something (uncited, as usual) in the MSM, which he claims is not liberal. What he quotes is classic MSM Lefthood:

"The U.S. military's first and only study looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two, according to a military report released by the Pentagon."

But here is the truth:

"Wall Street Journal

"Five years on, few Iraq myths are as persistent as the notion that the Bush Administration invented a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Yet a new Pentagon report suggests that Iraq’s links to world-wide terror networks, including al Qaeda, were far more extensive than previously understood."

But Harpo neglects to add a quotation (from WSJ) from this report that directly contradicts what he claims is "The Truth".

"The rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the region gave Saddam the opportunity to make terrorism, one of the few tools remaining in Saddam's toolbox, not only cost effective but a formal instrument of state power."

And: "The Harmony documents 'reveal that the regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al Quaeda --as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's long-term vision.'"

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Oh, by the way, Willie, I rest my case. It was too easy."

Too easy is right TK. One might think you're playing sock puppets on us. "You act is if these problems cropped up overnight" No DA that's YOU and your kind and let's see, TK is a registered Dem, I am registerd "Not-Affiliated" (a Constitutionalist with one hell of a Libertarian bent) yet it is "our" party that is the cause of all this madness? WEll no, no it isn't "our" party, it's our government and it's been coming since before 1973. AN event we certainly should've learned something from and done something to prevent from happening again. Got news for ya harpy, the oil companies haven't finally begun getting on the alternate energy wagon out of concern...they're bending to government pressure.

[IslamoLlama]

That was a great spoof, seeker. But given that we all know you'll be voting for McCain in the fall - while going straight ticket (R) along the way, its a rather hollow one.

"-- The science and technology already exist, it's the lack of infrastructure that is the major problem. First, ANWR must be opened up for oil and gas production. It can be done, the science exists to do it without causing any signifigant pollution. Second, energy conservation in the form of some legislation will have to be passed. It should have a sunset clause, for instance, when certain specific targets have been reached. Third, more constuction of nuclear plants should be allowed. I believe France produces all its electricity from nuclear power plants. Fourth, the government should finance the constuction of infrastucture for major wind farms that could and should be built right now from No. Dakota to Texas. I realize that wind turbines are being built as I speak, but much more needs to be done, and quickly. Fifth, the US is blessed with tremendous supplies of coal and shale oil. The technology exists to convert coal into cleaner energy, and to recover oil from shale, and the government should intervene with a program on par with the Manhattan Project.

But none of this will happen, Willie, because just like you said, one side thinks it has all the answers and will never compromise. --"

Firstly, France gets 80% of its energy from nuclear power and exports another 18% abroad. Secondly, ANWR is - at absolute best - a stop-gap measure. We'd get more oil if we harvested it from the Gulf Coast around Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. But we won't do that because the most valuable real estate is located on the coast, the power brokers in those states enjoy their homes, and oil drilling would wreck the environment. Go tell Disney you want to put a rig near Orlando and see what happens.

But even if we were willing to trash Alaska for the billions of barrels we could get, this would still take a decade to develop. And were Saudi Arabia or Venezuela to destabilize, living off Alaskan crude would be like trying to feed a city on table scraps. You'd make a few Alaskan land owners a quick killing, but you wouldn't dent the price of oil by more than a nickel or two.

True sustainable energy - solar plants and wind farms - are already in the works. They've got solar panels that produce electricity as cheaply as coal. Just google "nanosolar" for details. And the "clean coal" initiatives are generally dieing in the face of better alternatives. The "zero emissions" coal plant project FutureGen is dead in the water after the DOE pulled funding. So that leaves us with dirty plants most states - including Texas - don't even want to build.

Politically, Senators like Kyl and Stevens and Inhoffe could not have been more against new, clean power initiatives. To even pretend that Cheney's energy task force was anything more than giant handouts to Big Oil and Big Coal exposes a great deal of ignorance. You can't vote Republican and pretend to give a crap about energy independence or environmental friendliness anymore.

After six years of Bush we've seen oil prices triple. And the links between Bush's policies - destabilizing the Middle East, pissing off Hugo Chavez by sponsoring political coups, leaving the levees in Katrina unaddressed (which destabilized domestic oil refinement) - and higher oil prices is crystal clear.

One could make the argument that by raising the price of oil to $3-4 / gallon, he's done more for the hybrid car and other forms of energy conservation than any other President. Under Bush, we've seen Detroit on the verge of collapse as car sales swing towards Japanese companies that promise higher fuel efficiency and smaller rides that don't sacrifice luxury appeal.

The answers are already on the table. The question is whether the next administration will work with the country to repair the economy and avert the looming energy crisis, or whether he'll continue to side with big corporate special interests to fatten friendly wallets at the expense of the nation as a whole.

Sure, favoring the general populace over a handful of corporate executives may sound like "socialism" to the conservatives in the room. But perhaps, after decades of capitalist failures, a little socialism wouldn't hurt.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Firstly, France gets 80% of its energy from nuclear power and exports another 18% abroad." First he said he "thought" it was 100%, so where does France get the other 20%?
"Secondly, ANWR is - at absolute best - a stop-gap measure." & "But even if we were willing to trash Alaska for the billions of barrels we could get, this would still take a decade to develop." Well, in that case let's throw our hands in the air and give up. "and oil drilling would wreck the environment" That wouold be mostly the "view" as the "environment" suffers far more from building those "homes" than from off shore drilling.
"pissing off Hugo Chavez by sponsoring political coups," The US is the only place that can refine Hugo's oil and it's tough to sell tar.

"The answers are already on the table. The question is whether the next administration will work with the country to repair the economy and avert the looming energy crisis, or whether he'll continue to side with big corporate special interests to fatten friendly wallets at the expense of the nation as a whole."
God, I love it when you make a decent point. Of course what you propose is not socialism and pretty generally, granted with some exceptions, capatalism has built this (and a few other countries) to what they are. I guess we could ask the Chinese if they would like to return to "the old way"

[jharp]

Hey Fred,

But Harpo neglects to add a quotation (from WSJ) from this report that directly contradicts what he claims is "The Truth".

"The rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the region gave Saddam the opportunity to make terrorism, one of the few tools remaining in Saddam's toolbox, not only cost effective but a formal instrument of state power."

And: "The Harmony documents 'reveal that the regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al Quaeda --as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's long-term vision.'"

I did not cite the two additional lies as I felt one lie was enough but thank you anyways.

The point is the PENTAGON'S report conclude there was NO CONNECTION.

The WSJ article was lies. I cited one, You cited two more that I failed to post.

God, are you are nitwit.

[jharp]

"I have compassion for the greater part of the world that is not America, and would see them saved to the Gospel of Christ"

So you have no problem having the middle easterners wanting you to convert to Islam?

I really wish everyone would shut the eff up about religion.

It has no place in politics nor government. Go read the first amendment.

[IslamoLlama]

"-- God, I love it when you make a decent point. Of course what you propose is not socialism and pretty generally, granted with some exceptions, capatalism has built this (and a few other countries) to what they are. --"

We've had solar and wind power for a generation. Carter warmed his White House bathwater with solar energy and European countries have already put wind-mills to large scale practical use for decades. However, Sweden and the Netherlands plowed government resources into alternative energy. The United States dropped a few hundred million dollars to encourage more oil drilling. So we got what we paid for.

Freeing up more land for oil drilling - in ANWR or elsewhere - won't encourage American industries to build more alternative energy sources. Building more coal-fired power plants won't free us from dirty power sources either.

Entrepreneurs and government agents will always work hand-in-hand to provide citizens with their energy needs. The conservative "capitalist" system just encourages them to throw handouts at existing profitable institutions. The European "socialist" system blazes new trails. Since the US capitalist economy has had to do all the heavy lifting with design and deployment of alternative energy sources, while the oil sector has gotten free ride after free ride, its no surprise to see the oil sector dominating US energy needs. If you want to change how America does business, you have to grease a different set of wheels.

Conservatives continue to cling to the crude-covered teet. Eventually, oil will be so unprofitable that we'll be looking at oil drilling tomorrow like we look at growing alfalfa or other farm subsidies today. That is, of course, unless we move in a more progressive direction.

[templar knight]

"They've got solar panels that produce electricity as cheaply as coal".

Uh, wrong. That is the claim of the company Nanosolar, but these claims have been disputed by people in the business who have knowledge of solar technology. See Wikipedia entry for nanosolar. And if this were so, we would see eletric power plants, or in the alternative, we would see a massive installation of this particular solar film on new housing, for example. In any event, the upfront cost of this stuff is too expensive to make it worthwhile, at least for now. And it is not usable in large parts of the country, and in other parts is only usable for part of the year. That makes this form of energy production infeasible for now. But this will be a future energy source, no doubt.

"True sustainable energy is already in the works."

True to the extent I commented on, but no damn infrastructure to get the energy to where it's needed, and not even close to the amount of energy neccessary to fuel the United States. Not even 5%. How many times do I have to tell you these facts? It will take years to make enough wind turbines to even provide 20% of our energy, much less build the infrastructure to get the energy where it's needed.

"The answers are already on the table."

Wrong, again. We have 130,000,000 automobiles in the US that run on gasoline. How will wind and solar energy address this issue? We have...we have...again, we have to have enough oil production to power our automobiles, trucks and trains. And solar and wind will not do this. So we will have to have oil production for many years in the future, as it will cost of trillions of dollars to replace these autos, trucks and trains with improved versions that use electricity for power. And that can only be done over a long period of time.

Of course, I suppose we can take your advice, ditch civilization and go back to the Stone Age, Moe. See you for future political discussions at the village well, dipshit.

[templar knight]

"We've had solar and wind power for a generation."

Uh-huh, and air conditioning was invented in the early 1900s, but when did it become widespread in usage? See, there is always a lead time in the discovery of something and its widespread usage. It's called having the infrastructure neccessary to either create or deploy new technology. You college pukes think you know everything, when you haven't ever done one damn thing in your lives, other than live off your parents and the government, or work at a fast-food joint. You don't have a clue, boy.

"The European 'socialist' system blazes new trails."

What new trails? Name some.