Did He, Or Didn't He? And Does It Really Matter?

Sort of seems silly to me to be debating whether Barack Obama attended service at Trinity on one particular day over a twenty year period. But when someone makes the claim, it needs to be resolved. Did Obama attend church in Chicago in the AM before flying to Miami on July 22?

The reality is, Jeremiah Wright shaped Obama's religious philosophy. By Obama's own statements we know his religious philosophy drives his political philosophy. What else is there to know?

At best, Obama is a cynical politician who used a religion to win broader appeal throughout South Chicago. At worst, he's a racist - viewing the entire American experience primarily in shades of black and white.

Neither portrait matches what he would have us believe. Perhaps he's so young and inexperienced, aside from his speaking abilities, the man doesn't even know himself, yet. That's hardly a qualifier for the presidency.

Comments

[IslamoLlama]

Ok, so just to be sure we're clear on this, you will not be voting for Obama in November? I know you were a real swing voter before last week, and I'm sure your demographic - unemployed middle aged white conservative man - was going to play a key roll in this election cycle, so this can only bode ill for Obama. But I just wanted to be sure that your vote was totally lost, and there was nothing Obama could say to change your mind about him.

[Marvel]

No, I don't think this blogger was likely to vote for Obama. I'd love to snark about it, but minds closed this tight are depressing, and dangerous.

[jharp]

IslamoLlama,

I enjoy reading your posts. Thank you. Hopefully you are getting through to a least a few of the right wing knuckledraggers.

Your point about this an Obama blog is spot on.

Really amazing to me, 12 billion a month war, financial markets in near ruin, housing crises worst since the depression, and Mr. Riehl choses to debate whether Senator Obama was in church on July 22.

Wholly unbelievable.

[daveinboca]

Some moron named harpie does the usual moonbat squeak---off topic and stuck on stupid. [Look--over there!]. Pinhead trolls are a dime a dozen.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"unemployed middle aged white conservative man." This from someone who seems to have all sorts of time during the day to post here, never mentions going hither or yon, yet Dan has mentioned more than once what he does for a living.

"minds closed this tight(ly) are depressing" So how about you giving us two good reasons to vote for Obie? 'closed minds' the kitchen utensils are apparently at each other again.

"right wing knuckledraggers." The intelligence exhibited by name calling is sure to draw thousands to your side....well, bigots like yourself anyway.

"Really amazing to me, 12 billion a month war, financial markets in near ruin, housing crises worst since the depression."

Amazes me too...considering the big ole demonrat takeover of congress was going to fix ALL of our problems....in 100 days?......What is their approval rating now 12-14%

Keep playing partisan politics while Rome burns folks!

[seekeronos]

"--- Really amazing to me, 12 billion a month war, financial markets in near ruin, housing crises worst since the depression, and Mr. Riehl choses to debate whether Senator Obama was in church on July 22. ---"

No, not really.

Obama's ability to truly unite this country and run on the merits of his policy expertise and his experience (or demonstratable lack thereof) as opposed to swimming in the Democrat's sewer of identity politics and revolutionary terrorism on the one hand (the Ayers/Weathermen connection) and "liberation theology" on the other (the woefully wrong, anti-American, racist church of Wright) have everything to do with his suitability as a president, and down the line, how he might not be trustworthy to fix those problems.

And btw - the president's job is to win the war or otherwise make policy concerning what to do with the troops. He doesn't have a whole lot to say about how the $12Bn gets spent, or how to manage the sub-prime crisis, or the Federal Reserve, aside from advising the Congress that actually makes the policy decisions, and hopefully vetoing bills festooned with pork riders.

[chris]

"unemployed middle aged white conservative man"

You forgot ANGRY.

"Keep playing partisan politics while Rome burns folks!"

The smart money has been on to your stuttering Nero for a while now and has limited their exposure this Mconomy. Its you chumps that are stuck holding the bag. Sorry about that!

[jharp]

seekeronos,

Please tell me Mr. Seekeronus, who was minding the store when the banks were so freely handing out loans that cold never be paid back?

I agree with you that Bush can do little to manage the crisis now. The money is gone.

And I've got news for you. Senator Obama has not yet even won the nomination. Let's focus on fixing Bush's disasters for now. There will be plenty of time to attack the democrat nominee as soon as we know who it is.

[jharp]

"considering the big ole demonrat takeover of congress was going to fix ALL of our problems....in 100 days?"

You are really something. Now it's the democrats fault for not fixing all of the republican policy disasters within a year.

And with an overwhelming 50-49-1 Senate majority.

Be patient and give them some time. Their majority a year from now will be significant enough to get something done.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Its you chumps that are stuck holding the bag. Sorry about that!"

Most of the "anger" I see comes from leftist idiots like yourself who are totally unprepared for any adversity in life and seem ALWAYS to blame the government for everything but a cloudy day. You've been the angriest little sheeple the last eight years than I've ever seen. Frankly, I mean this especially to you, if I was as dispondent and as angry and as unprepared for life as the majority of "left leaning" posters Ive seen....I'd hang myself. At least the others contribute an opinion chrissy, you contribute bumper sticker slogans and nothing else. By chumps I guess you mean those people here who work for a living and pay taxes so you can get a check the 3rd of the month. I like that you sheeple are around because your hatefulness exhibits to fence sitters just exactly what you're made of............

[chris]

Dream on, flag-waver. Keep an eye out for your $600 check from Nero. He prayed on it and decided that you should have it!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"You are really something. Now it's the democrats fault for not fixing all of the republican policy disasters within a year"

No genius, unlike the typical partisan....yourself in this instance....I know who does what in the government. I['m simply parroting what the dems claimed they were going to do when they took over.

LO)LOLOLOLOOLL "Their majority a year from now will be significant enough to get something done." Stop it man, you're hurting me!!! OK, we'll see what happens In "da day o' Jubilo"

[IslamoLlama]

"--And btw - the president's job is to win the war or otherwise make policy concerning what to do with the troops. He doesn't have a whole lot to say about how the $12Bn gets spent, or how to manage the sub-prime crisis, or the Federal Reserve, aside from advising the Congress that actually makes the policy decisions, and hopefully vetoing bills festooned with pork riders.--"

What country have you been living in for the last 30 years?

"--Dream on, flag-waver. Keep an eye out for your $600 check from Nero. He prayed on it and decided that you should have it!--"

To be fair, that was bipartisan dumbfuckery.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Keep an eye out for your $600 check from Nero."

It'll be $1200.00 baby because unlike yourself I can keep a spouse. What's great is I dont freekin' need the government to pay my bills so I will likely put it in savings at my bank in Belize.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"To be fair, that was bipartisan dumbfuckery."

Stop it Llama!! chrissy has NOTHING if she cant blame everything on GW and you can't make her as smart as you.

[IslamoLlama]

"--It'll be $1200.00 baby because unlike yourself I can keep a spouse.--"

Do you keep her locked in a closet or stuffed in your basement? That's $600 / person. Unless you don't plan on telling her about the check, I suspect you won't have full discretion on how she spends her half.

Horray math!

[seekeronos]

"--- Please tell me Mr. Seekeronus, who was minding the store when the banks were so freely handing out loans that cold never be paid back? ---"

It is all too easy to fix the blame on one individual or a group of individuals. I'd have to say that the beginning of most of this sub-prime nonsense began under the Bush/GOP-lead 109th Congress( indirectly: Bush // more directly: Alan greenspan, chariman, Fed. Reserve)... and has rapidly spun downhill under Bush/110th Dem-lead Congress. Greenspan had seemingly abandoned his more rigidly conservative policies of keeping a generally tight money supply.

And Ben "Helicopter" Bernanke picks up from where Greenspan had left off with lowering the Fed's interest rate -- the rest is pretty much active history with dropping palletloads of cash into the big bankers' vaults and letting it rot there while those banks try to keep their cash haemorrhage to a minimum with all those defaults and foreclosures rolling in.

Directly, it is the fault of the banks and their poor planning and policies.

Directly, it is the fault of homeowners who for various reasons, could not find a way to live within their means.

And in all likelihood, _someone_ is going to get bailed out - whether it is those foolish homeowners who sold themselves for a surety, or the various lenders, banks, and hedge fund managers/i-banks who were too greedy to stop for a moment and follow the magic disappearing trail of debt paper. Whoever it is, it really matters not, as both lender and borrower will scream and holler as they find themselves awash in either in useless paper money, or deeply mired in an inescapable debt burden.

I do not look forward to paying (my share of) the butcher's bill for this either, as certainly any bailout (to homeowner or to bank) will likely come out of my pocket in the form of a tax hike.

And the last fix I want to hear for this will be "public housing" for our newly minted indigent/homeless class. The last time we went down that road, we got over a half century of urban blight and a permanent underclass that still haunts us with its dependency on government handouts.

Wahoo: I'll be dumping the $1200 equivalent of my rebate into my gold fund. Them new $50 American Buffalo coins sure are pretty... and if my broker can get me a hold of some that Visa IPO, I might be a very happy camper in spite of the crummy market.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I suspect you won't have full discretion on how she spends her half."

Llama you're not married huh? I dont have full discretion on how she spends my half.

[seekeronos]

"--- Do you keep her locked in a closet or stuffed in your basement? That's $600 / person. Unless you don't plan on telling her about the check, I suspect you won't have full discretion on how she spends her half. ---"

Now that all depends. In my case, my wife is a stay-at-home mom, and I'm make the money. We both agree generally that I control the spending as well. Naturally, I value her input and have often found her advice invaluable - but as head of my household, I have final say.

For better or for worse, as the vows go.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"I'll be dumping the $1200 equivalent of my rebate into my gold fund."

seek, last I checked that was one coin! Get some silver too friend.

[seekeronos]

"--- Llama you're not married huh? I dont have full discretion on how she spends my half. ---"

Then again... there are those odd expenses that do get through, especially certain brand name items or colour combinations of curtains, things of that nature....

Heh. I guess you can't win them all.

[Lala]

I proudly welcome David ("no longer a brain-dead liberal") Mamet into our society of knuckledraggers. David even calls Thomas Sowell "our greatest contemporary philospher"

[chris]

"Now that all depends. In my case, my wife is a stay-at-home mom, and I'm make the money. We both agree generally that I control the spending as well. Naturally, I value her input and have often found her advice invaluable - but as head of my household, I have final say."

She found herself a real hard-working prize. Does she know that you post backward drivel all day? I bet she's praying to the baby jesus right now for you to stop being such a lazy pos.

[Roy Mustang]

"Really amazing to me, 12 billion a month war,"

We want our soldiers to be well equiped, well paid and well cared for. It costs money to do that. Are you saying you would be in support of this war if we ran it on the cheap?

[jharp]

And none of this has anything to do with dumping 12 billion per month into the desert.

Right, Bushies?

[William]

"Llama you're not married huh? I dont have full discretion on how she spends my half."

LOL, if your the typical ringnut, she'll probably want to get you some Viagra and herself a dildo, you punchy piece of wimpy.

I'd like to meet you and smash your face in for what you are responsible for over the last 6 years of my life. I have been in Iraq for neigh on 3 years total with the 82'nd and I love nothing more than to correct you pasty white fuckers when you think I am on YOUR side.

Oh, and NO, I am not going to tell you who my commander is, nor am I going to tell you who I am, so you can believe what you will, I've NOTHING to prove to you right wing pussies who stayed home.

[jharp]

"Are you saying you would be in support of this war if we ran it on the cheap?"

No, I'm not saying that at all.

The 12 billion per month is only one of my objections.

The others. Iraq was not a threat. No WMDs. No connection to al Qaeda. No connection to 911. No reason to invade and occupy.

How is the 5 year old, 4,000 dead, 30,000 wounded, 1-2 trillion war going by the way. I don't hear much about it.

[chris]

"right wing pussies"

If this site is ever renamed, the above is a winner as a replacement. It about says it all.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"right wing pussies who stayed home."

Well Billy, since you cut and pasted my post, I assume you're threatening me. Judging by your spelling I assume you aren't very smart. See sonny, I'm retired and being old enough to retire I am too old to go to the gulf with you. I did mine though, most likely before you were born. Now since you're obviously tough enough to threaten an old man, let me know when you get home to Fayettenam and I'll meet you at Huske Hardware. Oh and btw, if you were smart enough to know whom you were talking too, you would already know that I was against this misadventure from the start.

[Roy Mustang]

It seems like you would object to this war whether it costs $12 per month or $12B per month. If this is true, then the cost is irrelevent, is it not?

Al-Zarqawi was in Iraq before the invasion. Saddam offered sanctury to Osama Bin Laden and gave sanctury to Ramzi Yousef. These are connections to al-Qaeda.

[jharp]

"I was against this misadventure from the start."

Good for you Wahoo.

You doing anything about it?

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"You doing anything about it?"

I dare say...more than you.

[Roy Mustang]

"Right wing pussies" are the only ones who are enlisting and fighting in Iraq. Unless you think anti-war activists such as yourself are rushing to the Marines recruiters and enlisting?

[jharp]

"Al-Zarqawi was in Iraq before the invasion."

The 19 911 hijackers were in the U.S. prior to the attacks. Should we have attacked ourselves.

Saddam and Osama were enemies.

What ever happened to that Osama guy anyway. You know, the one who actually was responsible for 911.

[seekeronos]

"--- and I love nothing more than to correct you pasty white f***ers when you think I am on YOUR side. ---"

Ya know something?

I really don't care what you think. As a matter of fact, I hope you don't whine so much in front of your squad mates, and if you do, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you're the one pulling all the extra duties for being such a whiner.

You sound like you belong in a cell more than you do with our fighting elite. And your ugly, racist tones do you no service either.

If you don't like "The Suck" so much that you feel the need to go around punching white folks in the head so much, then why don't you do your squadmates a service and seek a section eight? No scratch that, someone as deranged as you sound would probably get his squad killed in the line of fire for your self-righteous cowardice.

I guess your best bet would be to ask for a transfer out of the 82nd (if indeed you belong to it) for a nice REMF job where you won't get your poor butt shot at.

You signed up for your tour, buddy. Nobody drafted you.... just like a good many of us posters here who were in the first round of the Gulf War. The only ones who have any *real* right to complain are the Vietnam or Korea DRAFT vets... and the WW2 boys as well, though I suspect that not too many of them complained to the public.

Now what you are doing is just plain demoralizing, and brings great discredit upon YOU.

And that is a matter completely apart from the right-or-wrongness of the war.

[jharp]

Mr. Wrong About Everything Bill Kristol gets one right.

He was wrong.

In this column, I cite a report that Sen. Obama had attended services at Trinity Church on July 22, 2007. The Obama camapaign [sic] has provided information showing that Sen. Obama did not attend Trinity that day. I regret the error.

[jharp]

seekeronos,

Hey there. "Remember support our troops"

Unless you have spent 3 years in Iraq how do you have any idea what William has gone through or what his state of mind is.

Give him a break. I think I'd be pissed too.

He's risking his life, you know. Doesn't that deserve some consideration.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Absolutely disgraceful.

Bashing our soldiers. You feel proud of that?

[IslamoLlama]

Um... Seek. You forgot to follow that up with - "Support the Troops!"

Seriously, nothing like the arm-chair generals leaning back on their high horses and telling enlisted men how they need to quit their bitching and get back in the foxholes.

Makes you really want to put that old hypothetical, "What if war was declared and no one showed?" into practice.

[IslamoLlama]

"--In this column, I cite a report that Sen. Obama had attended services at Trinity Church on July 22, 2007. The Obama camapaign [sic] has provided information showing that Sen. Obama did not attend Trinity that day. I regret the error.--"

One would think this would be an invitation to STFU. Alas, Kristol continues, capping his article with this gem.

"--Now I wonder. Might the country be better off with the cynicism of the Clintons than the conceit of Obama?--"

Why settle for one when you can have both? Bill Kristol for President!

[seekeronos]

I'm bashing one man's self-righteous contempt for his countrymen, and for his employer, as it were however indirectly, "We, the People".

As a war veteran myself, I am not unaware of what kind of difficulties soldiers face - domestic issues where soldiers come home to find their wives catting around with the men who stayed behind; bills and obligations that went unmet - jobs that disappeared (in spite of legislation to combat that very thing) - diseases and wounds and injuries that never quite heal, to say nothing of the personal trauma that front-line combat units face.

We (who have served) know of these things.

And we can accept a certain amount of "murmuring in the trenches". But to publicly lambaste someone with a whinging tale of how bad his life in "the Suck" is, it borders on being cowardly, self-righteous (where he wrongly accuses someone of not doing his patriotic duty) and is certainly not becoming of the stature of being either man or soldier.

What makes his case all the more galling, is that he (like many of us) _volunteered_ for his duty.

If he were drafted, I might be a bit more sympathetic.

[jharp]

seekeronos,

When you find yourself stick in a hole the first rule is to stop digging.

Apologize and it's over. Try it sometime. You'd be surprised how forgiving people are.

William can bitch all he wants. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be to have three years of my life taken away for nothing.

It doesn't make a God Dam bit of difference whether he volunteered or was drafted. None.

And why are we in Iraq? Please refresh my memory. It has gotten very confusing.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

seek: you're wasting your time man. Those two have no concept of what they're talking about. They're the kind who met returning Vietnam vets and spat on them. Their contempt for the military and those who serve in it is only exceeded by their hatred for GWB. They only pretend to care about "the troops" when it meets their needs. Case in point? This william person offered to smash my face without an idea where I stand/stood on this current situation. SO I offered to put my face where he could do it. There was no disrespecting the service he's given or sacrifice he's made. Again, the difference between someone who's been there and someone who saw it on CNN. Now, I'll give the harpie a pass, but DaLLama should by now know that I'm against the war.......yet, where was her defense of me? That's right, she can't get past the blindness of her hatred to stand up for anyone who remotely disagrees with her. They also dont know that 6 years equals two terms of enlistment. If I hated it so much I'd have left when I had the chance.

[seekeronos]

"--- They also dont know that 6 years equals two terms of enlistment. If I hated it so much I'd have left when I had the chance. ---"

Amen.

[seekeronos]

"--- When you find yourself stick in a hole the first rule is to stop digging.

Apologize and it's over. Try it sometime. You'd be surprised how forgiving people are. ---"

Now you see, my dear jharp... that would imply that I was wrong. Which would be a lie, since I am not wrong in this case.

FWIW, I have deep issues with the constitutionality of the war. That is far aside from what a soldier's responsibility is, to himself, to his squad and team and unit, to his brother soldiers in general, and to these United States, to whom he has offered a sacrifice which remains undiminished in spite of his whinings here.

You don't sign on the dotted line without knowing full well that the price of dropping that squiggle of ink on the paper may mean forfeiting your life in service to your nation, or much more mundanely, giving up several years of your life doing the boring-day-to-day duties that soldiering entails.

And as Wahoo said, I'd doubly question why he is so vehement in his opposition to the war if he signed on for two enlistments. The re-enlistment bonus might have paid something down or off that he (William) needed, and his options might have been limited. But if (William) hated soldering that much, surely he could have separated out and found a job elsewhere, or made himself a career as a Democrat or a Socialist politician campaigning on the Code PINK/ANSWER International ticket.

[IslamoLlama]

"--What makes his case all the more galling, is that he (like many of us) _volunteered_ for his duty.--"

Wow. Tell that to the Walter Reed vets.
"Hey, they put us in an understaffed hospital that had its administration outsourced to Republican cronies. This, after we'd been maimed and deafened by road-side bombs that were paid for with money stolen from a giant cellophane brick of money air dropped by the Donald Rumsfeld brilliance brigade. Bombs we might have noticed if we weren't worn to the bone by 15-month tours of duty renewed through stop-loss provisions.

But... I guess we did volunteer - amidst patriotic post 9/11 fervor, at the age of 19, under pressure from parents, and because we had no money for higher education - so we better all STFU. I mean if we didn't want to be here we just should have known better than to sign our lives away."

Who needs "Support the Troops" when "Blame the Troops!" works so much better!

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"William can bitch all he wants."

I agree with this 100% but that does not give him the right to offer to physically attack me. I suspect that this cat was a troll and wont be back. Pity because I could ferret him out pretty quickly if he's a fake.........assuming he would answer a question or two.

[Kaitian]

"No connection to al Qaeda."

It was a big lie and repeated to death which it became true for idiots like you. Then there was this report, "Iraqi Perspectives Project- Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents", came out last week. All the liberal blogs were in uproar about McClatchy's interpretation of it and their article said "No connections to al Qaeda" which I'm sure you've seen. My best friend being a liberal believed McClatchy's interpretation of the report before it was even out to public eyes was proven wrong. The report actually showed connections between the IIS and al-Qaeda groups. But SHHHHH, don't tell anyone that, you need to keep up your myth. http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

[jharp]

"I agree with this 100% but that does not give him the right to offer to physically attack me."

Clearly he should not have done this. I'm willing to cut him some slack assuming his story is true. Not a veteran myself but am aware it can be about the most traumatic experience one can go through.

Thus, I'd just let it drop. No one's been hurt. Hopefully William can get some peace.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Hey, they put us in an understaffed hospital that had its administration outsourced to Republican cronies. "

Dammit, everytime I think you're brighter than the average leftard, you disappoint hell out of me! It was Carter that started that contracting crap and it has been EVERYGDADMINISTRATION since the VA was created that caused the mess that VA hospitals are. You, yes, YOU sheeple who care oh soooo much for our poor wounded vets are the ones who sat on your entitled asses and DID NOTHING to improve the plight of this blight until you saw the opportunity to blame Bush. None of you, not even Unca Paulie is stupid enough to think anything could deteriate that quickly. Or that someone could make a movie in the 80's about was would happen after the turn of the century. GD stand the F up and admit your own lack of awareness just freekin once.

[WAHOO WILLIE]

"Thus, I'd just let it drop. No one's been hurt."

I accept and offer my hand.