Battle In Berkeley

The Chronicle says Berkeley is heading for a showdown over Marine recruiting. It's pathetic that this is even an issue. They'd be the first to cry if there was a disaster there and the military didn't show up almost before it happened. I wish we could flush that city right down the drain.

If you want to get a seat at Tuesday night's Berkeley City Council meeting, you better start lining up now. And you might want to bring earplugs. And a flak jacket.

Hundreds of protesters from across the country and the political spectrum are expected to descend on City Hall with bullhorns, drums, banners and plenty of vitriol in anticipation of the City Council's debate over the Marines' recruiting station in town.

Here's some video of the morons on the Left. Move America Forward is taking them on. More details here.

And then there's Cleveland. I can't even suggest what I think should happen to the Mayor there. Another traitorous animal not worthy of holding any elected office in the United States of America.

A company of Marine Corps Reservists received a cold send-off from downtown Toledo yesterday by order of Mayor Carty Finkbeiner.

Comments

[Leo]

I think that's Toledo.

[seekeronos]

Bleah.

I'd say Bush ought to withdraw all federal aid and protection from those cities if they dislike the USMC and other armed services that much.

Tornadoes? Sorry, yer on yer own.

Earthquakes? Oops, sucks to be you.

Floods? Yup, hate to see that parade get washed up.

Lousy, treacherous ingrates.

[Omahahaha]

Some congressmen are threatening to withhold $2 million in federal money from Berkeley? That's about what the average house in the Berkeley hills is worth. Too funny. It's a beautiful city and yes the people who live there are very liberal and I'll bet most there at least condone the actions of the city. So what. I find it thoroughly amusing how the city is promoting protests against the recruiting center including granting the protesters free parking permits and noise waivers. Oh well, if they lose the $2 million it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with the shortfall given how big the tax base is there. When Congress tries to pass a bill against them it will just spur the city to up the ante. I'll sit back and watch the fun.

[BobInStamford]

Hmmm, Perhaps the larger issue is why the Marines decided to open a recruiting office in. of all places, Berkeley. As the distinguished Scientologist Willard Romney recently reminded us, this is a time of WAR. Those Marines should be out killing the remaining Iraqis or performing some nation-building activities or even, imagine this, finding bin Laden - it has been 6 1/2 years since 9/11. patriots.

Instead, they are trying to convince some birkenstock-wearing jackasses join the 'few' the 'proud'. Excellent use of resources. Mission Accomplished!

[TheSpartan]

This whole thing is ludicrous. The people of Berkley have a right to their opinion but if they wish to come down on the side of free speech they need to tread carefully. What they should be doing is protesting and informing people of sneaky recruiting practices. There are plenty of young men and women out there interested in military service without recruiters resorting to deception and outright lies.

I was being recruited under the Delayed Entry Program my senior year of high school and as I was filling out the application the recruiter kept hinting to me what I should and shouldn't say.

"Have you ever smoked marijuana? It's ok to say yes..."

"How many times? Less than 7 is ok..."

He also told me that due to my ASVAB scores I could pick whatever job I wanted. As we went through the list it was clear he was guiding me towards infantry as that's where bodies were most needed.

They're used car salesman with uniforms.

[syn]

Why do I get the notion that TheSpartan would have washed out the first day of training if he did manage to surivie the paperwork?

And why do I get the notion that BobInStamford is absolutely clueless to the number of Iraqis who consider the US Marines brothers and sisters in Iraq's fight against Global Jihad?

That said; The Marines have once again shown that the indomitable American spirit cannot be broken by pitiful ignorance and blind hatred coming from even those heartless creatures they have sworn to protect and defend; their souls are mightier than the hollowed words of cowards, their triumph is liberty.

[TheSpartan]

You know syn, I might have washed out but we'll never know. I do know that shady practices are employed by recruiters, that's not even debatable. And I did manage to survive the paperwork, it's just that I changed my mind and decided the Marines weren't a path I chose to pursue.

[Jec]

To TheSpartan:

So all Code Pink is doing is "informing people of sneaky recruiting practices"? What planet do you live on?

As for Berkeley's City Council, "freedon of speech" is not an excuse for them to spit on the Marines while they have all their hands out for $2 million in "earmarks".

By the way, thanks for finally deciding against joining the Marines. America is a lot safer for your decision.

[TheSpartan]

"What they should be doing is protesting and informing people of sneaky recruiting practices."

See that quote? What I SAID was they SHOULD be doing that, implying that they are going beyond that and in fact I think they have gone TOO FAR. Is that clear enough for you or should I bold it as well as using ALL CAPS???

As far as me not joining...well thay seemed to want me so maybe you're saying they aren't so smart afterall? I mean it's not like I have a mental illness or a criminal record like the guys they are trying to recruit now...

[Fred Beloit]

Dan wrote: "I wish we could flush that city right down the drain." Dan, I'm not sure the drain is what that outlet under a commode is called.

But I wonder why Spart is having such trouble being understood. It seems I am not the only one who has trouble comprehending his blathering braggadocio:

"See that quote? What I SAID was they SHOULD be doing that, implying that they are going beyond that and in fact I think they have gone TOO FAR. Is that clear enough for you or should I bold it as well as using ALL CAPS???"

This calm, courteous, and reasoned correction was to Jec.

There is something fishey about this statement of Spart's though. He says the Marine recruiter was trying to guide: "me towards infantry as that's where bodies were most needed." This is quite curious because my son, who was a Marine, assures me that all Marines are considered Infantry." I wonder if it was an Army recruiter Spart was working with.

Here is another curiosity: "...it's just that I changed my mind and decided the Marines weren't a path I chose to pursue." Now one is forced to question why a person who would choose another more peaceful path would elect to call himself "TheSpartan". The Spartans might be thought of as the Marines of ancient Greece.

Finally, we have this blindingly bright note: "...I mean it's not like I have a mental illness or a criminal record like the guys they are trying to recruit now..."

But of couse he does have a mental illness. It is termed BDS.

[TheSpartan]

All I have stated is accurate to the best of my memory. The year was 1988 so it was sometime ago. It was a Marine Recruiter (Sgt. Weaver if memory serves) a friend brought me in. He was entering on DEP and at the time the marines would give you additional rank upon successful completion of basic if you referred additional recruits (I think Lance Cpl. was the offer), and while all marines may be considered infantry there is a job (or at least there was at the time) that was listed specifically as such. I was trying for enlisted flight crew or something clerical in JAG as I was thinking of law as a career at the time.

As for my use of TheSpartan, I believe we've been over this. I went to Michigan State and their mascot is Sparty.

And as for the final point, is it not true that in recent years military recruiters have looked the other way at criminal records and even recruited those they knew to be mentally ill and even recruited an autistic man. I understand these guys are under pressure to meet quotas and as a result they cut corners and recruit those that might be considered less than desirable in different eras of recruiting.

[Fred Beloit]

Thank you for a polite reply, Sparty. Are you sure that person who brought you to the recruiter was your "friend"? Perhaps he was just someone who wanted to see you disappear into the comfy ranges of Parris Island. Just kidding. He probably thought you might have benefited from being a Marine. I believe, if this was the case, you should have gone through with it. You might see the world a little differently today. Maybe.

[Fred Beloit]

Spart, does this mean you no longer feel code pink should be defacing the recruiting office (which the Marines clan up impeccably while the Pinks are gone home to stick their noses in a bowl of soup)?

[LOL]

Wow it's amazing how much you want your fellow Americans to suffer for just ideological disagreements. You wingers and your hatred of freedom is disgusting.

[templar knight]

LOL, WTF are you even talking about? YOUR hatred of your fellow Americans is disgusting. You must hate yourself.

[TheSpartan]

Actually I just got back in touch with said friend after a number of years...he's on wife three I'm on wife one...I guess I'm the family values friend...seriously though, he's pretty liberal and anti-war. He saw action in Panama and really hasn't been the same since.

"Spart, does this mean you no longer feel code pink should be defacing the recruiting office (which the Marines clan up impeccably while the Pinks are gone home to stick their noses in a bowl of soup)?"

There's a faulty assumption in this question, by asking if I "no longer feel code pink should be defacing the recruiting office" you somehow inject that I EVER supported that kind of action and I did not and do not. Voice your opinion, fine...some are going to agree others will disagree, but short of a few rare and extraordinary acceptions breaking the law as a form of social protest simply strips credence from your point of view.

[seekeronos]

The Berkeleyites (sp) are entitled to their own opinions, however disagreeable and unpatriotic they are.

At the same time, let them pay for their own self-defense forces - a presidential decree that Berkeley is no longer under the protection of the federal government and may no longer receive any federal aid of any sort.

Of course, if CIA and FBI intelligence turns up any subversive activity there, it could also open the door for a declaration that the region is in a state of insurrection, and that a military occupation of that town is required as well, although that might be pushing things a bit too far.

[LOL]

Wow wingnuts really will look for any excuse to militarize the US. I'm sure you guys felt the same way during Clinton's war in Bosnia.

[BobInStamford]

"a presidential decree that Berkeley is no longer under the protection of the federal government and may no longer receive any federal aid of any sort."

Wow, you are one wacky Jesus-lover. Any more librul revenge fantasises?

[seekeronos]

"--- Wow wingnuts really will look for any excuse to militarize the US. I'm sure you guys felt the same way during Clinton's war in Bosnia. ---"

Actually, yes - some of us did who were in service at that time. Except we definitely backed the wrong horse. We should have helped out the Bosnian Serbs against the Jihadists operating out of Kosovo and other areas. Now the Jihadists have yet one more stronghold in Europe.

"---

'a presidential decree that Berkeley is no longer under the protection of the federal government and may no longer receive any federal aid of any sort.'

Wow, you are one wacky Jesus-lover. Any more librul revenge fantasises?

---"

Not a fantasy Bob. If you don't care for our military or wish to evict them from your public buildings, that is your right as a local government. But it should also be properly understood as a referendum against the federal government, and that the particular local government is acting in a way that indicates that it is no longer interested in federal services.

Suits me fine, it will keep my taxes lower if the (Berkeleyans? Berkeleyites? Berke-tards?) America-hating overfed hippies out there want to fund their own civic projects with their own cash instead of mine and that of the other 120 million patriotic Americans.

[TheSpartan]

While I don't support what they are doing out in Berkley, the notion that our military would potentially decide not to assist them in a time of need smacks of military rule and mafia protection rackets.

Additionally the notion that only 120million Americans are patriotic is not only offensive but downright stupid. Simply because I don't support the Crawford Simpleton does not make me un-American. I pay my taxes, I vote and I have opinions that may differ from yours but my hope for this nation is that it succeeds, it's just that you and I view success in different ways. Wasn't that what the founders were hoping for? Healthy debate? I mean they struggled endlessly over a number of issues themselves but it didn't make some of them patriotic and others not.

[Michigan Republican]

Having grown up in Toledo and left all I can say is that it is par for the course in the People Republic of Toledo, oh and the Mayor is an ass. As some background in '72 Lucas county (Toledo) was won by McGovern, Toledo and Massachusetts and the US Rep is/was Marcy Kaputer(?) a noted BDS sufferer and jihadi fan.

[righty-tighty]

My husband is a detailed recruiter. As if his job isn't hard enough right now.

Read an article some time back in the VFW magazine and the article stated the heart of the matter this way: "We are not a nation at war, but a nation whose military is at war".

And the civilians despise us for it.

[Fred Beloit]

Spartan writes of his liberal friend: "He saw action in Panama and really hasn't been the same since."

That'll teach him to stay out of those Panamanian cat houses, Spart.

[TheSpartan]

If a lib made that joke you'd be all over him for bashing one of our Marines who saw men die in action.

[righty-tighty]

One more thing to add, if you will allow me to indulge myself.

Despite what you may think, a recuiter's job is to sign up "quality recruits". If you spend months on a guy you know has a history of mental illness, or some other issue that disqualifies him from service, you are an idiot.

Recruiter's have to walk a fine line of quotas and threats to their career if they don't dot all i's and cross all t's. And prospective recruits will outright LIE to get in sometimes and a recruiter has to act as an investigator in order to cover his own butt. If something comes up at MEP's that the recruiter overlooked, he loses his recruit and has to go back to square one. Not to mention a barrage of threats and insults and manipulative-diciplinary crap (stuff civilians cannot understand) he has to endure.

But by far, the most humiliating thing for a recruiter to deal with is when ignorant parents tell a career Army guy that THIER son or daughter is "too smart" to join the Army, that they are "too good" for that. Sickening.

[TheSpartan]

"Not to mention a barrage of threats and insults and manipulative-diciplinary crap (stuff civilians cannot understand)"

Yeah, no civilian could understand discipline.

[righty-tighty]

Yeah, sure Spartan...that was intended to be an insult to civilians.

[TheSpartan]

Everyone faces job pressure...ok the employed do anyway. Certainly those in a combat zone face the most job pressure (umm, ok...life pressure). I wouldn't put recruiters in that fold. They have a hard job (selling ice in antartica) but if they fail they don't die. The problem is that some of their successes can lead to death and injury.

[righty-tighty]

Spartan, the guys who serve as recruiters are the same guys who go to war. They are just on a temporary duty assignment as recruiters (as with drill sgt. duty). Most of the guys in my husband's office have been to Iraq and/or Afghanistan at least once, if not several times. There are a few who are career recruiters, but most, like my husband, are on detail.

And yes, everyone does face job pressures. Not implying they don't. But someone who isn't a surgeon cannot comprehend the pressures of being a surgeon. That was my implication.

Everyone thinks the other guy has it easier.

[righty-tighty]

"The problem is that some of their successes can lead to death and injury."

And so can their failure.

[capitalist infidel]

does the vicious hatred that spartin and the other liberals on this site have for our military surprise anyone?

[seekeronos]

"--- Additionally the notion that only 120million Americans are patriotic is not only offensive but downright stupid. Simply because I don't support the Crawford Simpleton does not make me un-American.---"

My bad. I had meant to say "120 million patriotic Americans of voting age"... as the other 180 million citizens and or residents are minors or aliens either legal or illegal status.

Still, I would be easily compelled to support any bill or executive order that punishes a city or state that roundly rejected the presence of an American military unit within its limits by precluding it from protection and from the general largess of the federal government. It's not like they are asking to be quartered and billeted at private residences. They would pay rent on the buildings used for the recruiters.

The Berkeleyans are acting in a disgusting manner of protest that is far beyond the pale of a simple disagreement by way of editorial or a protest march or other speech. This is an aggressive, anti-American movement to slight and to injure our military's attempts to market itself to young men and women who might feel called to serve our nation.

[TheSpartan]

"does the vicious hatred that spartin and the other liberals on this site have for our military surprise anyone?"

I have no hatred for the military. That's not to say that some individuals in the military don't deserve hatred, in the same way that some priests deserve our hatred, some teachers, some politicians, etc.

My brother served in the Air Force, my grandfather was in the Army during WWII and my best man served in the army as well. I think our military is full of fine young men and women who work harder than many people could ever comprehend. The thing is I am able to keep that respect and honor separate from their missions which are generally derived out of political need.

[righty-tighty's husband]

It's not "their" mission. It is "a" mission. In order to find out what "the" mission is, we must look at the four fingers pointing back at the 120 million voters who are pointing at the Army/Navy/Airforce/MarineCorps/CoastGuard. Everything that the military does in this country is considered a support role of the "mission" of the U.S. I "support" and defend the Constitution of the United States. Never is it implied that I "support" my own mission or the mission of others in my chain of command. I only support the will of the American people (voters). Code Pink and others are doing and should continue to do, what their rights have given them freedom to do. Thank God we have those rights. My only complaint is that they are attacking the wrong echelon of government. No recruiter goes to work his or her first day on the job planning to lie or decieve. They are the best of apples thrown into a rotten barrel and forced to stay there until they too are rotten, or depressed, or overwieght, or insane, or divorced, or addicted to drugs, or all of the above. The "problem" that you (Spartan) think you see in recruiting is worse than you thought. Refine your attack, the footsoldiers in this battle are already fighting something else and you are nothing but an insignificant annoyance. Go for the bigdogs, I have.

[TheSpartan]

Not "Their" mission in the sense that they created it, but "Their" mission in the sense that that are charged with completing it.

And while recruiters may not start the job thinking they will lie or deceive, too many end up doing just that. Not all. I doubt even most. But some, and some is too many.

[seekeronos]

It is the nature of the beast. Recruiters *shouldn't* feel pressured to stretch the truth in order to make their quotas, at the same time that their commanders and their commander's reporting officers in charge and on up to the MACOM level should not feel the need to drop the hammer on them for either sending them substandard candidates or not making the quota.

But the kvetching and complaining about "this man's army" has been a fact of military life well since before our time, when men were drilled and dragooned into marching with dusty sandals and bearing shields, swords and spears under far harsher conditions under generals whose word was very much law.

We should be glad that we have a system of recruitment far more benign than any conscription - with hundreds of thousands of brave young men and women offering themselves for service to our nation.

Otherwise, we would need a draft, in place of the rather successful all-volunteer military we have had protecting us since 1976.

And we all remember (well, most of us here) how popular that wasn't.

[templar knight]

I have no idea what the motives of Sparty are, but I know the motives of most of the nutroot segment of the population is to do whatever or say whatever it takes to keep military recruiters from doing their jobs. They hate the military, and they make no bones about it. I've witnessed first hand the hate these jerks have for the military, especially when they think they are in the company of other nutroots.

[LOL]

Maybe the military wouldn't have to recruit in Berkeley if more of you wingnuts had enlisted?

[Fred Beloit]

Which branch of service were you in, LOL? Was it the Brownies or Scouts? Boy or Girl?

[Wahoo Willie Sez:]

Sorry my rightie friends: I believe Berkley and any other city has a right to control such "zoning ordinances" as their business.
Anyone who isn't willing to drive a few miles down the road to enlist is pretty useless anyway. SO I cannot imagine why the military would want to put an office where it isn't wanted.
Sorry, but recruiters (no, not all) do decieve recruits to fill quotas, truth is truth.
Toledo, or where ever also has a right to say, "you can train here, it scares the people" There are several military bases of all sorts between Michigan and Ohio and they all have areas where such training could take place. Why, Ft Bragg and Camp Lejune both have big towns JUST FOR urban warfare training.

Sparty, anyone smart enough to be on faculty at USC is too smart for Marine infantry. Good choice.
LOL get a shrink and the rest of you consuylt the constitution.

[TheSpartan]

"Sparty, anyone smart enough to be on faculty at USC is too smart for Marine infantry."

Smarts has nothing to do with it. I'm sure there have been as many geniuses in the infantry as their have been idiots of college faculties. In the age of a volunteer military it's about what works for the individual.

[Wahoo Willie Sez:]

"In the age of a volunteer military it's about what works for the individual."

I'm not real sure what you mean by that but I'm sure we aren't 'THAT' divergent. I felt the need to "give back" something and did my time....made a career of giving back really. Now, this is likely where you and I at least come close. The "giving back" does not necessarily have to be military service, it can take many forms, etc. There's no need to go to depths of explanation here.
My point is simple; get off your ass and do something rather than whining about not getting what you're owed. That whole "Ask not....." speech that some of us actually remember JFK giving.

[TheSpartan]

On that we agree. There are many ways to give back, for me it's being a teacher. Certainly I don't do it for the money or adulation.

[Wahoo Willie Sez:]

"Certainly I don't do it for the money or adulation."

Well you have mine on both counts. HA!! get it? Seriously, being married to a teacher, you do have my adulation. It's great what you people try to do.

[TheSpartan]

I'm an independent school teacher so unless I have your student I don't have your money.

[Wahoo Willie Sez:]

Well being in Mass (the state that gave us public schools) you can rest assured you dont have any of mine. What does "independent" mean? Private school? Contract home school?

[seekeronos]

"--- Sorry my rightie friends: I believe Berkley and any other city has a right to control such "zoning ordinances" as their business. ---"

Actually, I agree. And I believe that the Federal government has a right to withhold federal funds and/or military protection from those municipalities or states who show a patent, manifested hatred for those military services.

As touching on the training issue in Toledo, now, I'd side with the Toledo mayor, except to say that he could have communicated a much better response with the particular Marine unit. Instead, it initially came accross with the perception of it being a negative, anti-military political statement, rather than a "the locals will get mighty spooked with all those men with guns and tanks rolling down Main Street".

For the Marine commander's part, he probably could have coordinated to train at Le Jeune or 29 Palms or some other urban warfare center.

"--- ... It's great what you people [teachers] try to do. ---"

Generally yes. Until and unless that teacher starts teaching my kids weird New Age hippy-dippy stuff. If we can't bring our Bibles and prayer into the public classroom, then the sword should cut both ways when it comes to New Age or Islam or introducing other things like the "heather's two mommies" books that are age-inappropriate.

Keep to the basics like writing, speaking, good manners, math, science, martial-arts-minus-mysticism, team sports and basic arts, and for older kids, things like car maintenance, woodshop and maybe animal husbandry and gun handling, and household skills like cooking and sewing for the girls... and I'll be as happy as a clam.

[Wahoo Willie Sez:]

"If we can't bring our Bibles and prayer into the public classroom, then the sword should cut both ways when it comes to New Age or Islam or introducing other things like the "heather's two mommies" books that are age-inappropriate."

I agree with a lot of what you said esp vis Toledo. I see Berkley like this: Try to put a recruiter in a heavily Quaker or Amish area. SHould we turn our backs to those people for not wanting to support a war? Take time to think about it. Then there's the one I c&p'd above. In that one sentence you stated perfectly why so many people, including myself, do not support teaching religion of any kind in schools.....Now I mean "teaching" in the context that you are using it, not what we usualkly refer to as taeching. Here's a question seek: Say you live in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood in Detroit and your angel goes to school there. When they teach about the predominant religion of the area. Are you going to be happy or are you going to feel the way they do? While "religion" as a subject is a grand idea. This Christian cannot support having my children forced to pray to Allah at school.

[seekeronos]

As touching the Quakers/Amish, they are known for their pacifist teachings and (during the time when we had the draft) were able to opt out of military service.

Germany has mandatory two year conscription of all 20-y.o. men (possibly females too) but conscientious objectors can opt out of military service and serve with the Sanitätsdienst (Health Service: analogous to our United States Public Health Service) for that same length of time.

As we are not under a draft or peacetime conscription, I would not want to impose national service on anyone (although I do not recommend that individuals actively seek to avoid serving their community, state or nation at some point in their youthful lives).

The thing with the Amish (in fact most folks who don't particularly desire to serve in the military) is that they are *virulently* opposed to the function or the presence of the military or its members as an institution. For the Amish communties, I'd venture to guess that there simply isn't a market in that part of the country, and that recruiters are probably a bit thinner on the ground in rural OH and PA and other Amish/Quaker/etc. population centers than the norm for most of the rest of the USA.

The Berkeleyans on the other hand, seem to take great relish in making a spectacle out of their utter disrespect and disgust for the military.

It is this that I have an issue with; if the Berkeleyans simply didn't sign up or give the recruiters the business, they would go away of themselves. A more localized instance of this would be in a college town not far from me, widely regarded for the high population of well-behaved but significantly further left of center folks: there is no recruiter outlet in that town of about 30,000.

As for the Muslim school thing - if I had to live there based upon unalterable circumstance, I would likely try to enroll my kids at either a Christian school, or if none were available, I would attempt to keep a heavy eye on how much the Islamic doctrine was pushed in the public school, or perhaps have my wife home-school them if it were that bad.

Fortunately, I live in an area where I have a few options about schools.

However, I'd rather see a return back to a focus on skills and learning how to think and create and fix things - practical skills as well as mental skills... as opposed to being forced-fed a bunch of nice-sounding new-age "diversity" hooey.

"Diversity" is our biggest problem. How about we learn about "unity" as Americans!