Pakistan Turmoil Continues

Rioting is continuing in Pakistan and none of the news is very good. A Bhutto supporter was killed by masked gunmen, bringing the death toll to thirty-three. The Al-Qaeda-linked leader who the government said was behind Bhutto's assassination is denying responsibility and Bhutto's party, the PPP, is not buying the government's version either. While the government is still saying there was no bullet wound, a spokesperson for Bhutto's party who claims to have washed the body is insisting there was a bullet wound.

Poland has deployed 400 troops to Afghanistan out of fears of increasing instability in Pakistan as the US is increasing its diplomatic outreach. Meanwhile, the Pakistani government is trying to counter claims it didn't provide enough security by claiming Bhutto ignored security advice.

Reading around, there's growing speculation as to whether or not the Army might take Musharraf out if he continues to be a liability and if the US will consider deploying additional troops to Afghanistan as a precaution as Pakistan appears to continue to unravel.

As far as domestic politics, these developments are likely to keep foreign affairs front and center in the nation's political discourse as we move into the primaries. That landscape shift will likely benefit some candidates, while hurting others. Stay tuned.

Comments

[wolfwalker]

"While the government is still saying there was no bullet wound, a spokesperson for Bhutto's party who claims to have washed the body is insisting there was a bullet wound."

So now Pakistan -- a state with a tradition of settling political controversies through violence -- has its own version of JFK. Thrillsville.

[JustADude]

A couple of simple photos of the head wound would have helped even without a full autopsy to slow a lot of all this second guessing.

All we know is that this and the alleged intercepted phone transcript don't all fit together like one solid picture and their are conflicts.

Color me not surprised.

So all we can do is watch and wait and let the story play out till someone proves their case, if they ever can.

[Miklo]

Does anyone else think this?

Pakistanis are ruining their credibility in the world by unleashing such unplugged insanity. Grief is universal. But utter pandimonium? Beating each other with sticks? Ripping their hair out? Starting fires in the streets? Public screaming with abandon?

Join the 21st century, already - Get a grip!

[Miklo]

Yeah... yeah... yeah...

I know. I know. It's a "cultural" thing...

But at some point sane people take control of their emotions or they signal to the world that they need TO BE CONTROLLED because they are incapable of maintaining order on their own. Disorder leads to destruction and chaos. For their own preservation, they need to reign it in!!

[joeb]

Don't feel too superior. The same kind of rioting,burining,looting,killing took place all over the USA after Martin Luther King was killed here in the USA in 1968.

[Miklo]

I don't feel superior. I feel concerned.

Isn't it funny? The minute you make one honest observation - someone is always standing by to
call people "racist". This has nothing to do with racial ANYTHING. This has to do with sanity and order.

[Danie]

Hate to be pessimistic, but does anyone truly believe there is ever, and I mean EVER the possibility of maintaining ORDER in the MidEast...not just Pakistan, but the entire region? JMO....thank God for our military (and the sacrifices of their families), because in my heart I believe there would have been more terrorist attacks on our soil. Support the troops, don't criticize the war....can't have it both ways! JMO.....one must support both for our well being. However, peace in the Mideast???? Never gonna happen!

[TheSpartan]

You don't have to go as far back (or as significant as) MLK...we riot over World Series victories.

[Danie]

The Democratic convention (too lazy to look up the year, but late 60's) in Detroit, the riots in Watts (sp? CA), Rodney King riots, one could go on and on...rioting is not indiginous to just one group, race, etc....Most rioting is related to religion throughout history, from as far back as the Crusades and Spartans & Persions...History repeats itself, unfortunately.

[seekeronos]

"--- Reading around, there's growing speculation as to whether or not the Army might take Musharraf out if he continues to be a liability and if the US will consider deploying additional troops to Afghanistan as a precaution as Pakistan appears to continue to unravel. ---"

That should not be a speculation, but should be taken as a matter of fact, if the Pakis continue to riot.

Unlike the USA during a Series victory or a Rodney King beating, or MLK shooting, we *usually* get things back in order within a few days, or a week or two on the outside.

Cultural differences or not, there is something fundamentally disfucional in the Islamist societies where killings and rioting are an expected way of dealing with civil stress.

Flip side: this could mean that we could see Musharraf disappear in short order. Can't remember the name, but the commanding general of the Paki Army might very well pull a coup. This guy apparently had CIA linkage as well, and as the CINC-Pak.Army, he has the keys to the Pak.nukes.

[Danie]

The instability and inability to maintain order in the Pakistan and Mid East has been going on forever, and unfortunately, will continue to, JMO. It is irreparable, and continues to deteriorate. Agree, nothing like what occurs in US...we do recover order; the religious factor, I believe, will never, EVER, change. Don't trust any of the leaders....Musharraf is so inconsistant, and unreliable,as are all the leaders. JMO...do not intend to offend anyone, but the nukes possessed by Pakistan cause me concern (understatement). I also truly believe we would have been "hit" again if not for the efforts we have maintained. I hate war, as all do, well, not all, but we cannot disregard the danger the Mid East poses. Again, JMO....

[TheSpartan]

"The Democratic convention (too lazy to look up the year, but late 60's) in Detroit, the riots in Watts (sp? CA), Rodney King riots, one could go on and on...rioting is not indiginous to just one group, race, etc....Most rioting is related to religion throughout history, from as far back as the Crusades and Spartans & Persions...History repeats itself, unfortunately."

Too lazy to look up the city as well...Chicago, 1968. Also "Persians"...

[Danie]

Ha! Thank you for corrections! I am often admired for my mind...NOT! Irony....My family is originally from Sparta!....obviously doesn't equate to being intelligent...hahhahhaha! Thanks again, Mr./Ms.Spartan....

[Fred Beloit]

"The violence began Sunday August 25th. Anti-war leaders had tried to get permits from the city to sleep in Lincoln park and to demonstrate outside of the convention site. Those permit requests were denied, although the city did offer them a permit to protest miles away from the Amphitheater But the protesters were undeterred. When the park was officially closed, Chicago police bombed protesters with tear gas and moved in with billy-clubs to forcibly remove them from the park. Along with the many injuries to anti-war protesters, 17 reporters were attacked by police (including Hal Bruno, who was then a reporter for Newsweek and is now political director for ABC.) Throughout the convention, police would see the press as the enemy. Subsequent battles between police and protesters occurred nightly in Lincoln Park and Grant Park."

The police were correct. The press was with the protesters.

"Many innocent bystanders, reporters and doctors offering medical help were severely beaten by the police."

Bob, a good friend of mine, was one of those doctors, as he was later an Army doctor in Viet Nam. He was was not beaten by the police. He was not spat upon nor vilified when he returned from duty in Viet Nam. Wasn't called a baby killer either. One of the reasons the police were unhappy with the "protesters" (read rioters) was that the "protesters" would throw excrement, along with other things, at the police.

http://www.google.com/search?q=1968+Democratic+convention+Chicago+Lincoln+park&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.google:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[rwilymz]

"Pakistanis are ruining their credibility in the world"

On the contrary. They are doing what they've always done. They are among the least pretentious people on the planet. They don't pretend to have the cultural sophistication of, say, The West. We are intellectual and reasonable, rational people ... we don't go off half-cocked over mere political outrages.

Hell no. "we riot over World Series victories". Well, not the World Series so much as the NBA and NCAA BCS and soccer [for the Europeans among us].

*We* are largely pretentious; they are largely not. However, *we* are largely stable, and they, alas, are largely not. Maybe it's not a coincidence.

It's got less to do with their being islamist than their being a huge cultural evolutionary step behind us. They are tribalists, we are nationalists. Nationalism transcends tribe affiliation. Tribe owes allegiance to extended family, and is a ripe suck for strong-man dictatorships and monarchies.

Who is the heir apparent to Bhutto's spot in her "political party"? Her son, all of 19 years old and having no credentials apart from being her son. At least Hillary was politically active before marrying Bill, and went to the effort of becoming a Senator before deigning to step into the current ring. At least Dubya went to the effort of being a governor. Those are credentials, such as they are.

Bhutto Junior? none. How would we react if Hill and Billary to die in a traffic accident [yes, I know, "it wouldn't be an 'accident'..."] and Chelsea was named the Democratic Party leader? Or George and Laura ditto [yes, I know, same caveat] and one of the Bobsey twins was propelled into office? It's frankly offensive to us with our mindset. That's probably one of the reasons Hillary's "political ambition" rubs so many the wrong way: it smacks of the tribalist mentality we have mostly outgrown.

P'stanis [and A'stanis, and Persians, and Balkans, and nearly all Africans, and everyone else from Asia in general] have *not* outgrown tribalism, and replacing a politician with a child, or with whichever strongman can wrest the leather seat of power away from that child, is simply the way it's done. It's natural, like the sun rising, the moon changing shape, and religious leaders having a nearer connection to god/allah/jehovah/the wind spirit/buddha/zeus than anyone else.

Which alludes to the cure for tribalist instability: religious reformation and cultural renaissance. Throw off the self-limiting mindset that declares one's own family to be the bee's knees and the pseudo-moralistic nonsense that crutches it all up. People have dignity and worth no matter where they start from, and right up until they manifestly advertise they do not deserve that dignity and worth.

The two, reformation and renaissance, have to occur together in order to work. Religion cannot be literal in a society which wishes to "join the 21st century" and remain relatively stable during emotional times. Gods tend to demand both sacrifice [usually among nonbelievers] and smiting. A whole bunch of smiting, typically. And on top of a culture which has an inherant distrust of someone with a different tribal name -- forget about color, race or even religion -- the whole world becomes a target for smite.

Religion is the justification [Aman Ra demands it] and thereupon, by the pseudo-intellectual neophytes, the excuse ["religion causes wars"], but scratch a "religious" third-world war and it will bleed tribalism every time. Scratch a third-world political party and it will ooze tribalism, as well.

[Fred Beloit]

What he said. Happy new year, rwily.

[joeb]

Riots after Martin Luther King was assassinated lasted 5 days. In over 60 cities all over the USA.
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/K/htmlK/kingmartin/kingmartin.htm
There were no riots after JFK was assassinated.
There were no riots after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.
There were no riots after OJ Simpson was acquited of murdering 2 people.

[Danie]

Happy & Healthy New Year to all of you...Love, Dani (I know, I know, off topic! and under the circumstances of what is going on in the world, well, just thought we could lighten up a bit....silly, emotional, Dani.....stay safe please!)

Same Old Lang Syne....Dan Fogelberg; Missed but NEVER forgotten....thanks to the legacy of his music that will live on forever!

We drank a toast to innocence
We drank a toast to now
And tried to reach beyond the emptiness
But neither one knew how.

We drank a toast to innocence
We drank a toast to time
Reliving in our eloquence
Another auld lang syne...

[Dani17]

testing......

[Dani17]

What he said. Happy new year, rwily.

Posted by: Fred Beloit | Monday, December 31, 2007 at 10:59 AM

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Ditto....damn I wish I had that man's brain! "if i only had a brain..." (wizard of oz...hahhaha!) tindani17....all kidding aside, excellent analysis!