Pickens Responds To Kerry

Next move is John Kerry's.

In order to disprove the accuracy of the Swift Boat ads, I will ultimately need you to provide the following:

    1)  The journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam.
    2)  Your military record, specifically your service records for the years 1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your service.

When you have done so, if you can then prove anything in the ads was materially untrue, I will gladly award $1 million. As you know, I have been a long and proud supporter of the American military and veterans' causes. I now challenge you to make this commitment: If you cannot prove anything in the Swift Boat ads to be untrue, that you will make a $1 million gift to the charity I am choosing -- the Medal of Honor Foundation.

Comments

[Looking Glass]

Kerry's as swift as he ever was, capable of outmaneuvering himself while standing still.

What's interesting is how the Democrats are determined to recreate the Presidential election of 2004. Dan Rather's resurrecting Memogate. Kerry sticking his hand into the hornet's nest of the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth. The Democratic candidates running against George W. Bush. The MSM with endless BDS. Hollywood pumping out anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-American movies (that are bombing in humiliating fashion).

It's all about validating their feelings, which were badly hurt in 2004. They are determined to run against Bush so they'll feel fulfilled when he's not re-elected in 2008.

They've finally learned to bet on a sure thing.

[Scrapiron]

Hanoi John Kerry, a proven liar, traitor, and phony soldier had his heart set on replacing the only president in history to be convicted of a felony and be pardoned by the worst president in American history. Hanoi John is so sad that he managed to get his discharge upgraded by the worst president in history and it did him no good, even with a dumb broad putting the Heinz fortune behind him. It is a sad state of affairs that I'm LMAO at.

[PITA]

Pickens says he will pay a million bucks if a single anti-Kerry lie can be proved on the part of the Swift Boaters.

Kerry says, okay, he'll prove at least one lie.

Pickens then says, no deal, unless he gets to see EVERYTHING related to Kerry's military service, to include journals, home movies, personnel files--and not just related to Vietnam, but many years thereafter.

Hmmmmm, sounds like Pickens is backpedalling mightily from his original offer. I mean, shouldn't he wait to see what lie Kerry chooses to challenge, than ask for the relevant documentation?

As far as I can tell, Kerry's Bronze Star and his first and third Purple Hearts seem to fall into the he-said-she-said category; that is, both Kerry and the Swift Boaters can line up witnesses to tell pro-Kerry and anti-Kerry versions of the incidents related to those decorations.

However, I don't think the Swift Boaters produced any eyewitnesses to challenge Kerry's second Purple Heart, nor his actions during the firefight in which he earned the Silver Star. They certainly threw a lot of mud about that Silver Star (Kerry was a tactical incompetent, Kerry murdered an unarmed kid, ad naseum), but those who were there that day have all pretty much lined up behind Kerry on the details of that particular firefight. In my book, casting aspersions on Kerry's Silver Star qualifies as a lie.

Further, the Swift Boaters stated that Kerry aligned himself with phony veterans when he joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and that in his testimony before the Senate he knowingly repeated tales of phony atrocities told by these phony veterans at the Winter Soldiers Investigation. That lie alone from the Swift Boaters should earn Kerry his million bucks from Pickens.

In fact, the VVAW was stuffed full of real combat veterans, and a great number of the atrocities (and other negative stories) those members described at the Winter Soldier Investigation have been born out by official investigations and the military's own official histories of the Vietnam War.

In one example, James Henry testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation that his platoon from the 4th Infantry Division murdered some fourteen women and children during the 1968 Tet Offensive. The Army CID investigated Henry's claim, found supporting eyewitnesses, then basically buried their findings.... at least until the L.A. Times published the investigation in 2006 or 2007.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the Swift Boaters told lies about Kerry's Silver Star and his involvement with the VVAW and WSI.

Pickens doesn't need Kerry's home movies and medical records to sort out these particular lies.

[Fred Beloit]

PITA/NOWINKER/ISLAMO, you have disproved your own case in this one post. It is filled with assertions with not one specific piece of evidence. Kerry testified that atrocities were happening in Vietnam all the time and just about everybody we had over there was involved in them on a daily basis.

The Swift Boaters said there were rare atrocities, but nothing on the order of what Kerry had told the Congress about. To rebut them you claim "a great number" of atrocities. OK, let's have it. List them and evidence to back them up. This is what Pickens wants. You on the other hand want to give one example to prove a claim of "a great nunber" and offer only a vague reference to evidence in the LA Times. Won't do, just won't do.

Not only that, you are misleading as to what Pickens wants. You wrote he wants:
"unless he gets to see EVERYTHING related to Kerry's military service, to include journals, home movies, personnel files--and not just related to Vietnam, but many years thereafter."

Here is what Pickens wants:
"1) The journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam.
2) Your military record, specifically your service records for the years
1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your
service."

No "home movies". No "journals", only one journal. You wrote, "EVERYTHING related to Kerry's military service." Not exactly. He wants "specifically...service records for the years 1971-1978 and all films/tapes made "during...service." Kerry is an admitted war criminal. What could he be trying to hide that is worse than that?

[BobInStamford]

Texas 'logic' is amazing. Either you disprove the smear or it is clearly true. What backwardass 24%ers.

But then they revere the Alamo - a monument to failure.

[seekeronos]

The Boob's "logic" is even more amazing - a testament to the blind stupidity and utter foolishness of the rabidly leftarded moonbat 11%ers.

Indeed, answering a man according to his record instead of calling for a wide sweep of everything that is unrelated to the question at hand, a typical example of childishness (of course, the Big Mama Librul Gummint doesn't want any of its serfs to think for themselves, so it reduces its adherents to mental midgethood).

And if the Alamo is a "monument to failure", then I guess the Republic of Texas didn't _really_ happen then, eh?

I guess by the Boob's superior "logic", we all might as well have an existential crisis, because if the Alamo was a failure, then so was also Pearl Harbour, and the big surrender in 1942 when Yamamoto Isoroku dictated the terms of the American Surrender to FDR at the White House after the Japanese nuked LA and San Francisco.

[Scrapiron]

"as far as I'm concerned the Swift Boaters told lies about Kerry's Silver Star and his involvement with the VVAW and WSI". Most, not all of the VVAW/WSI members that testifies had never been out of the country, a good part had never been in the military. Hanoi John's 'seared in my mind' lies should be enough to discredit anything the man? had said, or will ever say. President Nixon did not order him to Cambodia a month before he took office. Vietnam Vet, CRBay 70-71, same place Hanoi John did the impossible.

[David M]

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 11/19/2007 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...

http://thunderrun.blogspot.com/2007/11/web-reconnaissance-for-11192007.html

[ec1009]

"The Democratic candidates running against George W. Bush." Posted by: Looking Glass | Sunday, November 18, 2007 at 06:57 PM

The Democratic candidates are running against Bush! How dare they! I can't think of a more clear case of treason aside from claiming you voted against him at a bridge tournament!

Snark aside, Kerry volunteered for one of the most dangerous assigments and he could easily have got into the national guard (rich with connections like Bush).
Bronze Star and three purple hearts! Vast conspiracy by military brass I suppose?

Bottom line, Kerry is a bigger patriot than looking glass, your boy bush and all the bushbots.

[PITA]

Scrapiron wrote: "Most, not all of the VVAW/WSI members that testifies had never been out of the country, a good part had never been in the military."

That is exactly the anti-Kerry lie to which I refer. Anyone who has had personal contact with VVAW members, or compared their Winter Soldier testimony with the relevant literature and official documentation regarding the units and operations being discussed, has no reason to doubt the status of those in question being real veterans telling (mostly) accurate accounts of their service in Vietnam. Some of their testimony (James Henry, etc) was actually confirmed by the Army CID, some (Robert Kruch, etc) by contemporary news accounts.

To save face, the Nixon administration immediately dismissed the VVAW as being composed of phony veterans, and friendly sources in the Pentagon fed this lie to historian Guenter Lewy, who then put this lie in print in his book AMERICA IN VIETNAM. Contacted in 2004 when this controversy erupted anew, Dr. Lewy adnitted he had no documentation to back up his claim of phony veterans and phony testimony at the Winter Soldier Investigation.

Please consider that despite the digging of the Pentagon, the Swift Boaters, and their allies (most notably, B.G. Burkett, author of STOLEN VALOR), no one has ever come up with the name of a single phony veteran who testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation. (The only phony to be named is Al Hubbard, an ex-USAF sergeant who tried to pass himself off as a captain, and who helped organize the Winter Soldier Investigation, but who gave no testimony himself.)

Calling real veterans phony veterans, and calling their true stories fiction, as the Swift Boaters did, qualifies as a lie in my book. Tell Pickens!

[fred beloit]

"Dr. Lewy adnitted he had no documentation to back up his claim" I suppose if this is true, Dr Lewy operates exactly like PITA.

[Fred Beloit]

"Calling real veterans phony veterans, and calling their true stories fiction, as the Swift Boaters did, qualifies as a lie in my book. Tell Pickens!"

If these were all real combat veterans who saw and/or committed war crimes they should be prosecuted, like Kerry, for committing war crimes or observing but failing to report war crimes to their superiors. Kerry accused all the Vietnam-serving military and himself of committing war crimes. Some hero!

[PITA]

Mr. Beloit, you seem unaware of the difficulties inherent in reporting war crimes in a combat environment, beginning with the confusion present in the minds of young men about what they were seeing, loyalty toward their comrades in arms, and the simple fact that the command structure did not want to hear about war crimes. Bear in mind that numerous enlisted men and junior officers reported to their superiors what they had seen during the My Lai massacre of March 1968. Those superior officers took absolutely no action based on these reports. This massacre of 500 villagers by a battalion-sized task force (not one crazy lieutenant named Calley, but the officers and men of two rifle companies acting over a four-hour period) would have thus been completely covered up had a veteran of the unit not contacted the U.S. Congress and Senate following his discharge, and the Army CID been alerted.

Wanna another example: consider that despite the massive corruption in the NYPD of the 1960s and early 197os, only one officer (Frank Serpico) was willing to step forward and formally report the situation to his superiors.

You guys live in a dream world.

[PITA]

One more thing, Mr. Beloit: documentation of U.S. war crimes in Vietnam is fulsome. Whether the crimes that can be documented represent the kind of day-to-day carnage described by Kerry, or can be dismissed as isolated incidents, per the Swift Boaters, is a subject of endless interpretation and argument. Is the glass half empty or half full?

Whether the level of atrocity was any worse among U.S. forces in Vietnam than WWII and Korea is also a subject of endless argument.

In addition, it's obvious from the historical record that the ARVN, ROKs, the VC, and the NVA committed far more war crimes than the Americans did in Vietnam.

Nevertheless, it's really disingenuous for you (and the Swift Boaters, and Pickens, the subject of this thread) to pretend that Kerry and the Winter Soldiers were speaking out of whole cloth: you guys act like you never heard of what American Boys did at My Lai, Cam Ne, My Khe, Binh Tay, Son Thang, Ha Na, Binh Thai, Thanh Phong, Xuan Ngoc, and the hamlets west of Hill 29 in Quang Tin Province. You guys act like you never heard of the Tiger Force, Task Force Oregon, Task Force Barker, the case of Lance Corporal Allen, or the murder-rape documented in CASUALTIES OF WAR by Daniel Lang. You act like you never heard of the Butcher of the Delta, or Sergeant Bumgardner, or Lieutenant Duffy, or the policy of collective retribution (burning of hamlets and slaughter of livestock, not to mention random H&I fire in populated areas) enacted during the height of the search-and-destroy days, roughly 1967-69, especially in the I Corps Tactical Zone, Republic of Vietnam.

Documentation of these war crimes is widely available should you care to dig through the war-crimes file at the National Archives, or read both the popular and official histories of the Vietnam War. (Obviously, some units had worse reputations than others in this regard, with the Big Red One, the 11th Cav, and the 199th Light Infantry Brigade having especially good reputations for having fought a clean war. In addition, once the search-and-destroy concept began to be phased out, circa 1969, in favor of hamlet security, there was a dramatic decrease in U.S. atrocities in Vietnam.)

Still, there's plenty of ugly stuff to be found about the conduct of the U.S. war in Vietnam, and I suggest Kerry dump all the documentation available about the war-crime side of the war on Pickens' desk, and see if Pickens signs that million-dollar check.