Free Speech Or Church Vs. State?

Only in today's Washington, DC could an architect believe he has the right to tell an American citizen whether or not he or she can include the word God on a simple certificate said citizen actually pays for - and the answer, for now, is no.

Via Drudge, an item in the Midland Daily News:

A 17-year-old Eagle Scout from Ohio reportedly was denied the request to have a certificate read, "This flag was flown in honor of Marcel Larochelle, my grandfather, for his dedication and love of God, country and family."

Midland Republican U.S. Rep. Dave Camp is among lawmakers objecting because the U.S. Capitol's architect won't allow God to be mentioned in certificates of authenticity accompanying flags flown over the Capitol and bought by constitutents(sic).

Apparently it's true, based upon item 8 on page 2 of this pdf, they went to the trouble of putting it in bold. These flags aren't given out, you have to buy and pay for them, at which time you submit 300 characters of text for inclusion on the certificate. But you can't include the word God. Good thing the kid didn't want it to read Allah, there'd probably be all hell to pay for refusing that one.

The Capitol Architect needs to find something else to do with his spare time besides telling Americans what they can and can't say on a certificate they pay for. In fact, maybe he needs to have more spare time. This idiot sounds a little too full of himself to me.

This website was developed in response to consumers' requests for information regarding the purchase of United States Capitol flags.

Comments

[BobInStamford]

This is appalling. As Fred Thompson would say - This may happen in Putin's Soviet Union, but not America.

[Retread]

This may soon stop since this story is getting a lot of coverage.

[jj]

Sounds to me like this goof of an architect is a chris/Boob type of idiot. It's a shame there is more than one of these people in the World. Of course, chris/Boob manifests him/herself in many variations on this blog. You're a hero, chris/Boob, a hero to the deranged of the Left.

[seekeronos]

Is this not yet another sign of how our nation is turning its collective back on her God?

And indeed... I'd say that if that eagle scout was called by an Arabic name, and had invoked Allah (a foul Sumerian demon worshiped as a god) on his flag certificate, that pompous architect would not have blinked an eye.

Or if he did, CAIR and the ACLU and so many other race-baiting/cat-herding organizations with nothing else better to do than to monitor and suppress free speech would be riding him like a stinky diaper on a baby's bottom.

I reckon a few dozen million of us should drop the $4.05 and have flags certificates made up to honour "the Lord Jesus Christ and His role in guiding our nation to its position of pre-eminence among the nations of the world", or "God Bless the USA", and similar language.

Heck, all that extra cash might help pay for some needed bullets and supplies for our boys and girls overseas at war, too.

[ZZMike]

Clearly, if Obama gets in, he'll change that real fast:

[quote]"During a Sunday service at an evangelical church in Greenville, S.C., Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama told the crowd of nearly 4,000 that he hopes to be 'instrument of God' and asked for their prayers to help him do that. 'I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth,' he also said."[/quote]

On the other hand, Obama is a Democrat, and they've been known to say things they don't really really mean, or things that sometimes aren't even true.

[Oligonicella]

Uh, seekeronos, it's not "her god". It's yours. As shown by your foul demon screed.

I'm an atheist and I have a great deal of problem with what they're not allowing him to do. It's *his* god, not theirs.

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

Actually Seeker, Allah is what the Persians call Jehovah. In other words, it's the same God. That is why the muslims consider Jesus to be "another" profit of God rather than the Messiah. The real point being that the government should have no right to tell me, you or our athiest friend what we are allowed to display on property we paid for..............

[Capitalist Infidel]

What do you expect from the Christian hating left?

[seekeronos]

W. Willie, I agree fully. The eagle scout paid his $4.05, and -should- get his flag with what he wants written on his certificate.

And as for my statement "Is this not yet another sign of how our nation is turning its collective back on her God?", I offer no apology: this nation was founded and constituted by people who were for the most part, Bible believing worshipers of our great God and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. At its origins and woven throughout much of its cultural fibre, is the call of the Gospels for the repentance of mankind and the love of the Brethren (fellow Christians) and the unsaved alike. Especially the unsaved. However much we have rejected Christ from His rightful place as our Sovereign Lord, either personally or as Kingship over all the nations of the world, He still sits enthorned as the Eternal King, regardless of what you (Oligonicella) or I have to say about it.

However, my point was, that there is a definite bias by the so-called "progressive left" wing against the True God and His Son, whereas with a wee dose of politically correct chicanery, middle eastern moon idols - or any other "deities" pass muster, simply because they are not the "Christian God". This chicanery and dishonesty - this wickedness, follows on as a rebellion against authority, especially that of the True God.

Due to an unfortunate limitation of language, the name "Allah" has come to identify the Person of the True God even in Arabic translations of Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. I say that this is unfortunate, because prior to the Age of the Hijra (the "time of ignorance" before the revelation of Islam to the mass murdering Mohammed and his band of arch-thieves and terrorists) there was a demonic moon idol called "al-Ilah" , which was also the tribal idol of the Qu'Raysh tribe, of which Mohammed was a member. This particular idol has a very long history, far predating Islam and Christ's first appearance as the Messiah on this earth; and can be traced back to the teraphim (household idols) of Abraham's pre-covenant culture in Ur of the Chaldees (a successor state to the early Sumerian Empire).

The prefix "Il" (which as truncated into "Alilah", and finally, "Allah", was an Old Arabic cognate of the Hebrew and Aramiac "El", a prefix denoting divinity, or service to divinity (to the Supreme God, generally, but not always specifically referring to Y-HW-H (transl. in English as "Jehovah"), the True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

There are other Biblical arguments (and Qu'ranic as well) which serve to refute the notion that the True God is completely distinct from, and much greater than the created and by his own free will, fallen angel who has taken the name "Allah".

This satanic moon idol (false god) was a high god amidst a pantheon of other pagan Arab gods (over 300) which were housed in the original Ka'aba (said to have been constructed by the Biblical Abraham, however, there is no Biblical record of Abraham making any side trips out to where Meccah is in Saudi Arabia, which would lend credence and support to Islam from the Christian Bible, if indeed, Jesus was only an Islamic prophet).

Consider then, that the Moon itself is to Islam what the Cross is to Christians; it adorns the flags of almost every Islamic nation, it sits atop the tallest spire of a masjid (mosque), and faithful Muslims calculate their salat (prayer times) by the position of the moon and the day of the month. The Moon itself has become their god...

I recommend reading this site - http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm for more detailed discussion of this issue by Syed Kamran Mirza (a former Muslim who repented of his idolatry and left Islam)

[Scott Marquardt]

Amazing. The "mystery clause" in the Casey decision upholding the right to abortion: "At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of the universe, and of the mystery of life."

So the SCOTUS avers that the unborn may be determined to be non-persons by dint of anyone's existential whim -- but if a freaking Eagle scout wishes to obtain a flag in honor of his grandfather, honoring said grandfather's "concept of existence, of the universe, and of the mystery of life" -- that's out of bounds.

I have the solution. Sell the flags at Planned Parenthood facilities. That way, the inscription would be protected under Casey instead of the risible rule #8 in the PDF.

[buzz]

If the architect insisted that the word "God" be placed on the certificate, then we have a problem. That the boy requested it be placed on the certificate does not in any way, shape or form construct a government religion. How many years of college do you have to go to before becoming an architect?

[M@]

If the flags are only $4.05 I might buy one and try to put the word Allah on the certificate. We already know they'll reject God, so that wouldn't interest me. I'm not religious anyway, I just think it's silly and if they reject one they ought to reject all submissions including a religious entity or reference.

[Math_Mage]

seekeronos:

Somehow I think the first sign of this great back-turning was the First Amendment. America was never the country of the Christian God, per se, it just happened to be primarily made up of Christian people at the time.

Whatever your beliefs, your dismissal of Mohammed as just a "mass murderer" with a band of "arch-thieves and terrorists" is just a tiny bit insulting to the 1.2 billion Muslims out there. It wouldn't be quite as insulting if you presented some actual evidence for this, but the bald statement is as rude as if I dismissed Jesus Christ as "just another hack job who wanted to go against Rome."

Also, just because the name of a demonic idol millennia ago happened to be al-Ilah doesn't mean that Allah necessarily doesn't refer to God. For one thing, the date of December 25th can't be Jesus' actual birthdate - it was taken from an older religion related to the sun to make it easier for the people of the time to accept (or so my sources say, I could be wrong). So it's perfectly plausible that Islamic priests wanting to make the religion more palatable to the community of the time would call their god by a name similar to an older idol.

Finally, I find it unlikely that the left wing is conspiring against the Christian God. It seems more like another attempt at equalization, carried too far - Christianity being the religion of the people who supposedly dominate American society, signs of God are more likely to be taken as oppression rather than as free religion.

None of this is to condone the refusal of the word "God" on the certificate - I think it ridiculous that someone could violate the First Amendment so blatantly. But I also think that it's nothing to call "yet another sign of how our nation is turning its collective back on her God."

[Talis`]

Buzz to become an architect one must attend college for at least 5 years, have been tutored by a state registered architect for no less than 3 full years and must pass a state administered exam before practicing under one's own name. I was once an architect student and was mostly ridiculed by my classmates as well as my professors for holding true to traditional beliefs. Sad, this poor young man has learned the hard way that he is of a proud few left who understand the power of moral guidance that our founding fathers had. This Eagle Scout's only wish was to pay homage to his grandfather and his loyalty to 'God, country and family'

[seekeronos]

"---

Somehow I think the first sign of this great back-turning was the First Amendment. America was never the country of the Christian God, per se, it just happened to be primarily made up of Christian people at the time.

Whatever your beliefs, your dismissal of Mohammed as just a "mass murderer" with a band of "arch-thieves and terrorists" is just a tiny bit insulting to the 1.2 billion Muslims out there. It wouldn't be quite as insulting if you presented some actual evidence for this, but the bald statement is as rude as if I dismissed Jesus Christ as "just another hack job who wanted to go against Rome."

---"

Math_Mage:

I offer my opinions that Allah is what he is, in light of the fruit which his awful faith has borne:

Slavery. (still in practice throughout much of the Muslim world, especially Africa)

Women as chattels.

A theology that insists that its followers force the conversion of unbelievers, or reduce them to a subservient (dhimmi) status.

A theology that revolves around the sword. Mohammed once made a point of capturing a particular enemy, then raped his wives and slew his children in front of him, before decapitating him with his sword.

A theology of lies: al-Taqqiya, or "holy deception".

And this is but a small sampling; there are many more examples of Islamism which reveal it to be essentially a religion of murder, lies, and destruction --- just as Jesus spoke concerning Satan.

Now, some will say that Christianity certainly has its shortcomings.

That is not necessarily true. There are Christians, or people who falsely claim to be Christians, who disobey the commandments of Jesus. Long story short, these folks who disobey and rebel against Jesus lead themselves into disaster and reproach the name of Christ.

But as much as Allah and the Quran DEMAND that Muslims kill, steal, lie, and destroy... The Word of God (Jesus) commands us to love one another, to preach the gospel, and never to do so by the sword of flesh, but by the sword of the Spirit (a figure of speech for the preaching of God's word).

Touching again on our Christian foundation --- you may be right in that while the preponderance of the Founding Fathers and the Founding Americans were either Christians or subscribers to a Christian set of ideals (interwoven in a unique weave of Enlightenment ideals), this original and unique blend has changed --- in my estimation, for the worse.

As we have enshrined separation of church and state beyond its original intent of preventing the establishment of a state-managed centralized religion* or cult ... and in our day, is taken to such an extreme as to prevent the very thought of Jesus Christ as the Only True Saviour of mankind.

The tossing out of our national identity as a Judeo-Christian nation over the past 60 years has been instrumental in our collective rejection of our God.

Nothwithstanding all of the above, I think it behooves all Christians to recall that while the governments of this present age are held (in degrees) in thrall to the Prince of this world (i.e. Lucifer/Satan), he in turn must submit to He Whom God the Father hath anointed and esteemed to be Sovereign and King (Psalms 1), none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Happy is he who remembers to do homage to the Son, and honour Him as King, for "He sat enthroned at the Flood, and sits as King forevermore" (Psalm 29:10).

* (Comparison: the state Church of England and its offspring, the Episcopal Church of America, the Lutheran Evangelischekirche in Germany, and Roman Catholicism in most of southern & central Europe)

[capitano]

No problem, just tell them to inscribe the words to the PLEDGE of ALLEGIANCE to the... FLAG.

[incongruities]

Meh, who wants a certificate from that asshat anyway?