Carol Gotbaum Enroute To Rehab At Time Of Incident

CBS is reporting that Carol Anne Gotbaum was on the way to rehab. As I said in a previous post, there was probably more to the story, sad as it is.

CBS 2 learned on that Carol Gotbaum was on the way to an alcohol rehabilitation center in Tucson when she was taken to a holding cell where she died.

Comments

[BobInStamford]

If she had found Jesus like the drunken cokehead George Bush did, this never would have happened. Another point to Jesus!

George was a funny little monkey, when he was off the wagon, huh?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/68715/george_w_bush_drunk/

[seekeronos]

Al-BoobinStamford would do well to ask Jesus to forgive him, and become his Saviour and Lord.

It ain't too late yet, "Bob". Jesus loves you, too.

[BobInStamford]

Settle down, there kook. Regardless of what your 'minister' in the bad suit tells you, you don't get any extra points for saving souls. Why not just worry about youself.

[Purple Avenger]

"you don't get any extra points for saving souls"

It'll be a real kick in the teeth for you if that turns out not to be the case won't it?

[seekeronos]

Sadly, "Bob", I think you'd be among those godless folks who would probably not blink an eye at a government sponsored "religious cleansing" of all Jews and Christians. I have to wonder how soon this will come to be in the USA and in the western "free civilizations; it is a key plank in the plan of most extreme Marxists and Islamists. In fact, I'd go as far as to believe that some people of your stripe would be more than happy to yank the guillotine lever to send us to our deaths, much as the Romans in the Coliseum eagerly cried out for the lions to devour those early Christians..

But still, you clearly need to hear the gospel, and you need to be saved, and be born again through Christ, or you WILL suffer an eternity in Hell, burning forever for your sins. Why continue to be foolish (and you are, in spite of your two advanced degrees) and continue to reject God's offer of mercy and forgiveness?

"--- Settle down, there kook. Regardless of what your 'minister' in the bad suit tells you, you don't get any extra points for saving souls. Why not just worry about yourself. ---"

Indeed I do seek to "work out my own salvation with fear and trembling". (Philippians 2:12B, KJV) This is not salvation by works, but rather bearing the fruit of my salvation from sin by grace through faith.

And there is a reward for obeying the Word of God, even if it I don't see any or all of it until I see Him in His kingdom to come. What matters more than the reward though, is that I share in Christ's love for sinners.

Jesus also commands Christians to preach the Gospel to all the world. (Matthew 28:17-20, KJV)

Unless you are a non-human, that command includes even folks like you.

And on that note, I'll apologize and ask your forgiveness for answering your indiscreet remarks (in all your sock puppet forms) as that has done little and more like nothing to persuade you to the Gospel.

I'll make a point not to rag on you in the future - you get enough entertainment from the rest of us RWV commenters digging on some of the rash things you say here as it is. :)

[Cindi]

Jesus loves you bobinstamford...........the rest of the world knows you are an asshole. heh

[rwilymz]

"If she had found Jesus like the drunken cokehead George Bush did..."

Isn't it interesting how an incident at the intersection of overzealous, ineffective "security" measures, and of a free peoples' rights to make asses of themselves in public is used by brainless simpletons as a platform for sneering not at the overzealous security, nor at people being public asses, but at third parties over an issue completely irrelevant to the incident in question.

[Fred Beloit]

When one's entire world view is colored by BDS, one has to apply its illogical ravages wherever possible.

The chain goes like this: death in airport=security=homeland security=Administrative branch=Bush=NNNNOOOOOO.

Another example: The so-called "phony soldiers" scandal. Limbaugh=listeners=conservative=Republicans=Bush=NNNNOOOOOO.

[footballcrazy]

Indeed it is interesting rwilymz. But have you noticed who it always seems to be that starts the attacks...seems to always be the so-called freedom loving free speach advocates who always make the first move to silence dissenting oppinion. Have you seen any footage of the last few so called "PEACE RALLIES" and the treats to the conservative news reporters? Indeed they are CORRECT when they talk about government cleansing. They should know it is them that are getting the ball rolling, eagerly i might add. Same thing with their eagerness to align themselves with the REAL HATERS, NAZI'S AND RELIGIOUS FACISITS in the world in the belief that they will be rewarded for their support in downing the so-called Christian Facisists. Interesting if they'd only realize that if we were REALLY RELIGIOUS FACISITS they would not be giving the platform that got them were they are today. And of course now that they have the platform THEY want to silence opposing oppinion. To bad they can not realize that their pride and arrogance have made them perfect candidates to be unwitting bootlicks. My only hope is that I am still around to see the look on their faces when they stand before Islamic fascists and say "Here my friend. I have weekend my country so much that you were able to infiltrate and bring down their way of life as we know it...Now my friend what is my reward?...All I want is to see the look on their face when they realize their reward is to be forced to their knees and their head cut off with a k-bar.

[rwilymz]

"have you noticed who it always seems to be that starts the attacks"

Yes. It's those who issue drive-by posts. Those who think in bumper stickers. Those who "believe" with a religious fervor in their point of view but do not [and likely will not] open up their perspective to critical thinking.

This solipsism exists on both sides of the modern American political spectrum. "I believe it therefore it is good".

[seekeronos]

"--- Those who "believe" with a religious fervor in their point of view but do not [and likely will not] open up their perspective to critical thinking. ---"

I'll reckon that this is probably meant to apply more toward the "Bobs" and the other folks who come here with quick zingers and such, but to the point where it may apply to me as a "religious" person, (I'd care to deny that title, as what I do is not about "religion" for the sake of observing forms and going through the motions, but rather doing my utmost to live my life for Christ who saved me) I'll definitely admit that my faith does colour my viewpoints of things to a lqarge extent.

Critical thinking is important. I don't get flustered at hard-core materialistic evolutionists/cosmologists, but I don't think that God is strictly limited to that particular route of causing everything to exist. Nor am I willing to be dogmatic about a literal six-day creation that happened in 4004 BC (or even 10,000 years ago -- there is much observable evidence pointing to a million or billion year old earth). God is capable of either miracle. Given man's understanding of the universe when the first scriptures - the Torah - were handed down by divine inspiration, the six-days were probably the best framework for our non-technological society to grasp the idea of life coming to be.

I could go on at length with things that could question either account of creation vs. evolution, but the reality of it is that it is just really not that important: that is, don't sweat the small stuff.

As I said to "Bob", the key thing to be grasped onto (and not let go of) is salvation through Christ. Everything else - Biblically speaking - shall come after, as the Holy Spirit leads people (believers) into all truth.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matthew 6:33, KJV)

[Maggie45]

Poor woman. God rest her soul. I'm wondering why a member of her family wasn't with her for support, if she was on her way to rehab. They're probably second guessing themselves like crazy now. They'll be in my prayers, as will the officers who left her in the room.

[nowingker]

"I believe it therefore it is good".
-----------------------------------

Hasn't that pretty much always been the case? I believe the world is flat, that the Protestants/Catholics are an abomination, that witches fly on broomsticks, that communists have infiltrated DOD....

The beauty of our system of government is that it was designed to mitigate the majority's ability to impose their ideas of 'what is good' and put in place huge checks and balances to prevent people from being carried away w/emotion and righteous ferver and to protect the unhappy minority of 'bad thinkers'

Unfortunately, this system has been eroded by the Right and the Left, for different reasons and different ideas of 'what is good' to the point that there isn't that much Free Speech left to worry about.

[Fred Beloit]

"Unfortunately, this system has been eroded by the Right and the Left, for different reasons and different ideas of 'what is good' to the point that there isn't that much Free Speech left to worry about."

That's just idiotic, nowinkie. Give us, please, some examples of speech we could be arrested for.

[rwilymz]

In a topic devoted to Carol Gotbaum you ask what speech you can be arrested for?

Or, okay, she was arrested for acting like an ass.

That doesn't address the point made, however. "There isn't much free speech left."

I'd agree. Activities on all sides of what is laughingly called "political debate" in this country is more concerned with silencing dissent in arenas they dominate than on having political debate in which actual by-god *evidence* and *analysis* are sounded rather than political feel-goodery.

And this place isn't immune from it, either.

As "conservatives" point out, you can barely utter a conservative philosophy on most American college campuses without running afoul of the self-appointed watchdogs of Academic Newspeak -- and their faculty advisors and apologists. "Saying the wrong thing" has more ability to negatively affect your future than an armed robbery conviction, fergodsake.

Try getting an "N-word" in edgewise sometime.

Try denying the Holocaust.

Try advocating *for* illegal immigrants in the rural desert Southwest, or *against* them in large cities with sizable populations of Mexican illegals.

Try advocating *for* gay rights in "conservative" areas of the country, or *against* same in "liberal" strongholds.

You will be silenced. You will be silenced not because your words are necessarily wrong and your ideas stupid, or anything else that is demonstrable, but because they fly in the face of the local orthodoxy.

We do not like free speech. We do not like free press. We do not like free anything. Free anything means that something is not controlled. No control means that something gets to run around doing what it wants and getting in the way of ... **me**.

I don't care if something gets in the way of *you*, but god damn!! nothing can get in the way of **me**. Doncha know I have important things to do? important ideas to hold in my head and keep from being challenged?

If you want your words or actions to get in my way ... well, *that's just wrong*, and we need to stop it. Get enough people wanting to stop the "N-word", by golly, it can get stopped. Doesn't need to be arrestable; just sanctionable.

Get enough people wanting to stop military recruiting on campus -- that can be stopped as well. Just like prayer in school can be stopped. Just like any other freedom to make an ass of yourself in front of others can be stopped.

Simply allow people to make offense-taking legitimate. The way others' freedom makes you **feel** is more important than any other consideration.

[nowingker]

That's just idiotic, nowinkie. Give us, please, some examples of speech we could be arrested for.
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Political protest outside of a designated "Free Speech Zone"
-Political t-shirt at a political event or attempting to board an airplane
-Flag burning
-Noose hanging
-Swastika displaying
-Gay bashing
**Pretty much all 'hate crimes' are attempts to prevent people from saying things that the majority has deemed offensive and "we" have gotten around this by the ingenious device of 'hostile atmospheres' and 'implied threats' so that in certain situations, mostly schools and colleges [at present] saying something that is derogatory or using a 'hateful' symbol is forbidden.

[jolari]

Sad story and I am sure that will be a lot of second guessing by all involved, but it comes down to the fact that this woman had ample time to make her flight and did not do that. She was irate that an exception could and would not be made for her and reacted in a way that the airline felt that they needed to ask for assistance. It just went downhill from there. Was it preventable sure--the family could have chosen to not let her make this trip alone, the airline could have not called security, the PD could not have let her alone--but the bottom line is that this woman could have made sure that she was at the gate in time, this woman could have realized that she was not someone so special that the plane departure could have been delayed for her, this woman could have not created a scene that caused her arrest. The person ultimately responsible for causing this tragedy is Carol Anne Gotbaum. God rest her soul to quote Maggie 45.

[Maggie45]

Jolari, you are absolutely right. A very dear friend of mine often used to say: "Alcoholism(addiction)is a disease of entitlement". I am grateful every day that I found help and got out of that.

[rwilymz]

"She was irate that an exception could and would not be made for her..."

She was a paying customer. The airline, indeed the entire arline industry, has somewhat of an obligation to make sure that their paying customers meet their planes.

Exceptions are made in virtually every other area of customer service. ...with the possible exception of Canadian healthcare. A guy with a sprained ankle is not the same as a guy with cardiac arrest. A woman whose plane is now boarding is not the same as a woman whose plane leaves in two hours.

These are not excitingly new and unique circumstances; they happen daily at every airport in the country; at some airports, they happen hourly or oftener. To have zero accomodations for people who are late is gross consumerist irresponsibility, and if it weren't for the fact that private industries were beholden to obey governmental regulation lock, stock and barrel, there might actually be something tangible done about it.

"The person ultimately responsible for causing this tragedy is Carol Anne Gotbaum."

That's mighty condescending of you.

Again: free citizens in a free society have the right to rant and rave without penalty or censure.

Did she?

Obviously not. So somewhere along the way she stopped being a free citizen and/or this stopped being a free society. She was making an ass of herself. To render ass-making an arrestable offense is one thing; the responsibility for the person thus arrested then falls upon those having jurisdiction for the arrest.

That's sorta what happens when you exercise your legal authority.

[nowingker]

I'm curious, rwilyzm, do you really think an irate woman, with adrenalin pumping through her system, could physically have gotten her handcuffs around to the front and choked herself within 5-10 minutes without dislocating her shoulder? I realize it is 'possible' but I find it soooooooo implausible.

If its this easy to strangle yourself while handcuffed to a table, with your hands behind your back, you would think there would be some 'anti strangling' protocols in place.

Seems much more likely that someone got her in a choke hold and accidentally killed her.

[rwilymz]

I find it implausible. If she were attempting to get the cuffs in front of her, lost balance, got arms caught on some stationary object, fell into a position which at once dislocated her arms [any/all joints] and rendered her incapable of righting herself ... sure.

But that would have made a noise.

I'm unwilling at this point to cast many specific aspersions, but am completely unsatisfied with the realities that make airport hissy fits any more of a "crime" than the hissy fit I had in March at the local farm supply store when they told me that if they didn't carry the expensive livestock wormer to the front themselves I'd steal it.

Ranting and raving is the right of every American.

[jen]

In some parts of the country, a woman exhibiting the type of behavior that Carol Gotbaum did would have received medical attention, not incarceration.

I'm surprised that anyone here could argue that she caused her own death. Regardless of her actions, the PD was responsible for her safety and well-being-- as is anyone in their care. This case deserves all the scrutiny that it is getting.

[Fred Belot]

nowinkie"

-Political protest outside of a designated "Free Speech Zone"---WRONG
-Political t-shirt at a political event or attempting to board an airplane---WRONG
-Flag burning---WRONG
-Noose hanging---WRONG
-Swastika displaying---WRONG
-Gay bashing---WRONG

No wonder your comments depend for the most part on exaggeration, nowinkie, your background facts are all wrong.

[nowingker]

Fred, honey, you need to get out more.

Free Speech zone arrests
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL&type=printable

Political T shirt arrests
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/04/iraq.usa.shirt.reut/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/wireStory?id=3489979

Flag burning arrest
http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/

Noose hanging arrests
http://www.abc2news.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5c77cb14-189f-4ba8-99a9-d31cd403350f

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21039345/

Anti Gay speech arrests

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-hatecrime_20_bothsep20,1,5507632.story

**I admit I can't find any arrests for simply displaying a swastika or making anti semitic remarks..at present.

[realist]

her life became the responsibility of police once she was cuffed.
I am willing to bet that toxicology reports not only show alcohol but also show other drugs. Who did this woman think she was that this type of public behavior is acceptable? Those of you who say that the airline/airport/tsa should have placed her on the plane obviously dont fly much. As for the cuff chains...she must have pulled them under her feet thus placeing them in front of her..the chain to the bench however was now between her legs..in attempting to step over it, she may have tripped but this still would not place the chain around her neck in all probablility. Do i suspect foul play?..no...Freak accident?.. yes
She should not have been left alone in that state..i agree..but a rational person would have given up on that battle as soon as they realised arrest was approaching.
I could care less who her step-mother in law is..give me a break. This woman was either under the influence, in complete withdrawl(doubtful) or used to having her ass kissed.
As for all this jesus crap..you must be joking..i can appreciate the fact that you need a crutch to survive your day to day troubles. A God created by mankind's need to worship a higher entity isnt a bad thing but lets face it, the earth is older then 10,000 years, evolution is fact and the church is a corporation who controls its members through fear. To judge everything based on a book written by men, yes men, who decided which parts to include and exclude based upon the powers that be is insane. I may be wrong but im willing to bet that more people have been killed(murdered) in the name of christ then in all the wars of this planet combined. Crusades, inquisition...yeah..thats exactly what jesus would have wanted.
This woman did not deserve to die, she caused the events that led to her death, she had multiple chances to come to terms with her situation. I can only wait and see what drugs were in her system(10-1 there was more then alcohol involved) but being she is "special" and married into a high profile family, a coverup is going to be deemed prudent.
In closing my rant..if you feel an injustice was done against the innocent...i cannot deny that pehaps one was...all i can say is that in late december..when "kill a tree for christ day" is observed..you might want to take a minute from your self-involved lives and seek out a needy child..one which suffers injustice daily..and improve their existence by any mean in which you are capable. I can guarantee that you shall be able to find one within 50 miles of your comfortable home...or..maybe jesus will take care of that for you also??...if he wanted that child to enjoy life..he would have made them yours from birth..

[realist]

nevermind what i just said, i've been drinkin, i thought it was water but jesus must have changed it to wine when i wasnt looking. That guys pretty crafty. I could have sworn as i was walking along the beach that he was walking on the waves...naaaaaaa, thats crazy...i'll have some more water please...

I can hear your head exploding from here...my work is complete :-)
God Bless....

[Julie]

Has everyone overlooked the fact that airport police are just that and not therapists? Their job is to protect you, and when someone behaves the way this woman did, it's their job to restrain her, not hold her hand. The only people aware of her condition were her family members and doctors, not the airport staff, police, or other passengers. She never should have been put on that flight alone, and if the Phoenix police had become aware she was suicidal, she would have been taken straight to a local unit for stabilization, not put on another plane where she could present a further security risk. Is this maybe why the husband told airport staff in the initial phone call that she had a "medical condition" and not that she was suicidal? Just another case of people who would rather sue someone else than be accountable for their own actions. These people had substancial means, they could have even hired someone to accompany her on the plan without her knowing it. As far as being left alone, she was at that time a prisoner, and prisoners are left alone a million times a day, it sounds as though this family is very entitled and expects preferential treatment.