Baltimore Sun Sets On Right-side Blogs

Great, the Baltimore Sun decides to cover the Frost case, so they immediately go comment trolling at RedState for the worst of the worst. By page two they have someone calling for them to be hung.

But while the Frosts were helping a bipartisan majority in Congress sell a plan to expand the program, they were not prepared for comments such as this one, posted over the weekend on the conservative Web site Redstate:

"If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. ... I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I'd do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info."

The Frosts would not disclose income statements to the Sun and a very simple question remains unanswered, while the narrative gets twisted around. Prior to the accident it appears a young healthy family of six was existing without either adult holding full-time employment, or opting to provide themselves with health care through Frost's business.

The Frosts declined to show The Sun their 2006 income tax returns, and the state Department of Health and Mental Hygiene would not confirm their enrollment in the program.

Without knowing why two college-educated adults who grew up in middle, and or or upper middle class families, allowed themselves to get into a position where they had four kids and no health care, it's impossible to know why they now need government support. If they brought those circumstances on themselves, no reasonable person is suggesting their children shouldn't continue to be covered given what they now face. But some of us would like to know if another government entitlement simply ended up enabling irresponsible behavior and dumb choices by two parents who weren't providing for their children's health care before this all started.

If that's the case, they're as good a poster family for the potential damage government programs can do, as they are for ways in which they can help. Wouldn't most Americans advise the next Frost family in waiting to give up an apparently failed wood working gig to get at least one job with benefits for your kids, as opposed to going along your merry way, knowing the government would bail you out of any misfortune?

Comments

[curvedbrain]

"Baltimore Sun decides to cover the Frost case, so they immediately go comment trolling at RedState for the worst of the worst"

Yeah, that's so fair and balanced, a major newspaper going on conservative blogs to dig for the worst comment they could find, which does not represent the tone or substance of the other posters on the same site. As long as cherry picking comments (which could have been left by someone at the Baltimore Sun as a setup for all we know) is the norm as a technique to smear-by-association opposing views, I nominate this post left yesterday evening on your other Frost family thread by a tolerant reality based community member:

"You people are pigs. Fuck you and your party. I hope you all rot in hell"

Somehow I just don't see the Baltimore Sun leading into a story with "conservatives note some inconsistencies in the Frosts' story, but after raising legitimate questions, they never expected to hear this...Fuck you and your party, etc."

[Captain Joe]

You would think that the Frosts would have availed themselves to contraception or abortion "therapy" if they didn't want to buy insurance.

[g]

It's true, the Sun had no need to troll for RedState hateful comments. They could easily have found all the hate they need in Dan's posts.

[tjproudamerican]

I am a Liberal, and have been a registered member of the Democratic Party for my whole adult life. I urge my great friends on the right to keep attacking this kid and his family. I also urge you to get more air time for Ms. Malkin, and Ms. Coulter. Maybe a "two-fer" where Ms. Malkin attacks this kid and his family and Ms. Coulter attacks the WTC Tower widows.

Let people see who you are and what you are made of.

[Lamontyoubigdummy]

"It's true, the Sun had no need to troll for RedState hateful comments. They could easily have found all the hate they need in Dan's posts."

With the exception of the word "hate," that comment is dead on. As such, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and posit that your thesaurus is busted. Truth doesn't equal "hate." Easy mistake to make I guess (with the state of current academia and whatnot).

[Lamontyoubigdummy]

"I urge my great friends on the right to keep attacking this kid and his family."

Good grief. Are you and "g" using the same computer? If not, your MS thesaurus has a horrible virus too (you guys should get Macs). "Attacking" is not the same thing as "questioning."

"I am a Liberal, and have been a registered member of the Democratic Party for my whole adult life."

Hey,hey. It's OK. No shame in that. Admitting you have a problem is the first big step. Besides, you've obviously only been an adult for what? 35-40 minutes? Give it some time.

[Jon H]

Goddamn entrepreneurs. No reason good taxpayers should be asked to fund a deviant lifestyle choice like that.

[dumbblonde]

Cripes.

This subject has strayed so far from the basic issue at hand. Despite the accusations to the contrary, I haven't heard a single person say that these children, now that they are in this situation, shouldn't have proper medical care.

The issue is one of responsibility.

Is it the responsibility of the individual to provide for himself and his family *to the best of his ability*? Or is it the responsibility of the government?

If the individual has the ability, yet knowingly fails to take responsibility, then why should it automatically fail to the government to take responsibility?

Don't forget - the government's money doesn't just fall off the money tree. It comes from the taxpayers - meaning the people who have reached a level of success in life where they actually have a federal tax liability. Reaching this level of success, in most cases, didn't happen by accident. It came as a result of education, hard work, and making the right decisions in life.

The percentage of people in this country who actually pay federal taxes is growing ever smaller, and their tax bills are growing ever higher.

Meanwhile, the list of programs to be funded with this money grows ever larger. Each new benefit for one group comes at an ever-increasing cost for the other group.

It's simple income redistribution.

At what point do the actual taxpayers say: enough! Why should I continue to work my ass off so the fruits of my labor can be taken away and given to someone who couldn't be bothered to make a better life for himself? Who didn't take full advantage of the free education provided to each and every member of this society? Who hasn't bothered to obtain skills which would make him marketable in today's workplace? Who decided to have children he couldn't support? Who doesn't feel like working a full-time job? Who has money for cigarettes, but not for groceries?

Are there people who sincerely need some help? Who have fallen on hard times? Who through no fault of their own are in a difficult situation? Of course. Absolutely, no doubt about it. And nobody should turn their backs on these people.

But these people are the exception. This country, for all of its faults, is still the best place on the planet as far as providing opportunity to those who want it - despite the seemingly best efforts of those who seem to want to take away all incentive for making a good life for oneself. The majority of the people living in this country, at this point in time, should be able to step up to the plate and take responsibility for themselves.

[TTT]

Republicans are running out of Americans they don't hate.

The Frosts embody most of the values Republicans pretend to care about: marriage, entrepreneurship, hard work (as opposed to fancy city academia, desk-clerking, etc.) These aren't pot-legalizing hippies or illegal immigrants or gays or Muslims. These are a NORMAL MAINSTREAM AMERICAN FAMILY--basically, any and all Republican-voting families, plus a car accident. And now they're your new enemy? Uhhh, good luck with that, geniuses. The GOP's politics of demonization (perfected by blogger-sociopaths like Malkin, legitimized in this case by Mitch McConnell) have turned into electoral cannibalism.

[BARRASSO]

Please keep up the posts on how evil and irresponsible this family is, and a democratic super-majority will soon come in 2008. Really do you think this is winning any votes for your side? I don't know if the wingnutosphere could do any more this week to look like a larger collection of asses.

[markg8]

"This country, for all of its faults, is still the best place on the planet as far as providing opportunity to those who want it."

Well no that's not the case. Europe's economy is much better than ours these days and their social safety net makes it much easier to change jobs and stay employed. Your way isn't geared to help the unemployed and working poor move up, Republicans prefer cutoffs that give the poor a whole host of Hobson's choices that make work less attractive to the poor.

The Bush Administration encouraged 7 states to sign poor parents up for SCHIP along with their kids when Repubs ran congress. Now that they don't he thinks cynically playing politics with the funding will make him look fiscally "responsible". In Illinois it will cost an extra $75 million
annually for poor kids' healthcare thru Medicaid that he'll cut off SCHIP which is much more expensive than SCHIP to both the state and federal gov't. That makes no financial sense at all.

What do we do if some people aren't able to "step up to the plate and take responsibility for themselves"? If Harley and Bonnie Frost aren't able to make enough to afford the ever rising healthcare costs for their now uninsurable, injured kids?

Force them to sell everything they own, move into a two bedroom apartment and when the money runs out throw them and their children into the street! That makes sense?

What do you suggest? Set up a whole new government agency to crack down on the middleclass who have pretensions of making a better life for themselves and their kids to crush their dreams? A little government forced downward mobility will show them! How does any of that help them become higher earners and hence bigger taxpayers?

[curvedbrain]

"Well no that's not the case. Europe's economy is much better than ours these days and their social safety net makes it much easier to change jobs and stay employed."

Compare Western Europe's relatively high unemployment rate to ours to put that myth to bed. And even then, European unemployment is artificially buoyed by a larger percentage of full time students who stay in school often into their 30's. As for being much easier to change jobs in Europe, due to socialist leaning employee rights laws in Europe, employers in Europe are typically more reluctant to hire, not less reluctant.. because they have to consider that if an employee turns out to be a deadbeat or if the company has to do a layoff, European companies are on the hook for much longer with unemployment payouts and benefits, typically involving much more money and bureaucratic red tape than here in the US

Back to the subject at hand, has even one liberal site stood up to the lies coming from the left about how the Frost family was "attacked" and that wingnuts attempted to "destroy" them? They were not 'attacked', yet liberals, from what I can see, have unanimously supported and cheered those lying characterizations.

[dumbblonde]

What do I suggest?

I suggest people like the Frosts purchase catastrophic health insurance, *before* events such as car accidents. They are not poor, or disabled, or uneducated, or otherwise unable to obtain suitable employment which would enable them to properly care for their family.

I would be willing to bet that the Frosts have homeowners insurance to protect their home and property against catastrophic events. If they own a car, they most likely have - at the very minimum - liability insurance.

So why not a basic, catastrophic health insurance policy to cover the kids?

And no, Europe does NOT come even close to providing opportunity in the way that the United States does. A "safety net", i.e. entitlement program, is not "opportunity".

[tk]

I just read the sun story and cannot understand why the democrats used these people to make their point. I know facts get in the way but if their home is worth around 500,000, his warehouse cost's 160,000, the children in expensive private school and he is self employed,why didn't they have health insurance. Plus the children were injured when the mother hit an ice patch and the SUV she was driving hit a tree. Why didn't auto insurance cover the costs?

I for one think health insurance should be refined using the private sector, and no one should go without coverage. If the government needs to pay for those in need; fine by me. But there are a lot of question for this family.

[dumbblonde]

And regarding "safety nets." A so-called safety net is a mechanism set in place to catch people when they fall and help them get back on their feet. A safety net is not supposed to be a substitute for having to stand on your own feet in the first place.

[dumbblonde]

"These are a NORMAL MAINSTREAM AMERICAN FAMILY"

I hope not. If underemployment (by choice!) and irresponsibility are what is normal and mainstream in this country, we're in worse trouble than I ever imagined.

[Fred Beloit]

monkg8 writes: "Republicans prefer cutoffs that give the poor a whole host of Hobson's choices that make work less attractive to the poor."

If this is so, why do the world's poor continue to come here?

[TTT]

"if his house is worth $500,000 and the kids are in an expensive private school"

The house is worth less than half of that, and since it's mortgaged he can't exactly count its worth as an asset. If he sold it, after taxes he'd be lucky to get $70k. The private school tuition was entirely state-funded for one handicapped child, 99+% state-funded for the other.

[jj]

Fred, the heads on the liberals will burst if you force them to think in a logical manner. Here's the "logic of the Left":

1. If you question someone who is, or wants to be on a government program, then you hate them.
2. If you expect a well-educated, middle-class couple to take responsibility for insuring their children PRIOR to them being uninsurable, then you are judging them.
3. If you criticize someone for using a child in a manner that is shameful, then you are attacking the child.

The liberals who have been posting here are truly the most immature bunch I've seen this side of DU, or perhaps the Huffington blog. In any event, just skip the liberal stuff, it's for the most part silly and not well thought out.

[Observer]

I note that several of the left leaning commentors seem to immediately hone in on the political electoral advantage of the situation rather the even considering the merits of the issue at hand.

Why am I not surprised?

[tjproudamerican]

observor

did you notice that the liberals here asked the question: should the family sold their assets, moved into an apartment, and when that money ran out tossed their children into the streets?

I know conservatives and they would never suggest that the kids be tossed out, just down-sized. As a matter of fact if the family had off-shore children take the place of their own, they could enjoy the benefits of their assets and children.

The bloggers on the right raised this issue politically because they assume that everyone has their hatred of anyone who is not miserable and the right's great servile love of the wealthy and powerful.

On the right, Limbaugh barks and the rest of you wave your tails. This episode has shown you bankrupt morally and politically and intellectually.

Try talking to real Americans, and try not to think truth is a subjective thing you can manipulate. Your situational ethics are anathema to real people, especilaly when the situation is: protect the rich/screw everyone else.

[redherkey]

"I urge my great friends on the right to keep attacking this kid and his family."

It's unsurprising that we're unable to reach these anger-management suffers on the left. Perhaps the need for psychiatric care drives their demand for all of us on the right to give them treatment at others expense.

Four years ago, the small company I worked for suffered two uninsurable catastrophic losses in sequence. As the sole income earner in our family (with the wife staying at home with our second child), we lost all insurance and went from a moderate income of well less than six figures to half of what this couple who parade their private-school children reports. Their private school costs were double what we earned in one year. Having been one of the principals in the business, I had to decide whether to stay and stabilize it, at a serious personal cost and risk, or leave and let it collapse, causing loss of jobs and disruption to our customers.

A year into this difficulty, racking up debt and running both of our retirement savings and investment accounts to zero, my wife went back to teaching and I picked up night classes in the interim while working spare jobs in my "free time." Several years later, the company is sold and our family is fully insured, as I'm running a program for a Fortune 500 firm and making many times the income from before.

We all take risks, except those on the left want immunity from theirs. Their behavior wobbles between exceptional risk-seeking to bizarre risk-avoidance, both usually at the wrong times. Instead of recognizing the cost of the choices made and correcting their behavior, they pursue the Al Gore "risk offsets" model and seek to dump their cost upon us to bear on their behalf.

Many of us in society are simply tired of it, and we're increasingly realizing we can't even rationally discuss issues with these misfits. We've been through hardship too and made the sacrifices, but like the grasshopper in the fable, some won't correct their behaviors until they have no other choice.

Increasingly, to declare oneself as a liberal is to state that you're an parasite upon society. It's time for those of us that actually matter to our society to provide some necessary tough love to our unwell brothers on the left. Take your risks without our pocketbooks and we'll see how far you make it.

[templar knight]

"...I know conservatives..."

The hell you do!

[Nathan]

wait, so the frosts are now obligated to give out their income statements to the press? really? would you mr riehl?

[seekeronos]

"---

Force them to sell everything they own, move into a two bedroom apartment and when the money runs out throw them and their children into the street! That makes sense?

What do you suggest? Set up a whole new government agency to crack down on the middleclass who have pretensions of making a better life for themselves and their kids to crush their dreams?

---"

I suggest that the hardworking woodworker-small businessman (Mr. F.H. Frost) should have planned his strategy more wisely, perhaps talked it over with his father of whom it has been posited, is a man of great wealth --- to secure funds for his children's insurance plans (preferably, prior to the catastrophic accident).

Now, his best bet (short of continuing to milk the system, and his children being used as tools for the Democrat Party's election machine) would be to go hat in hand to his parents, and seek their counsel and perhaps their financial contribution to alleiviate the burden on the government.

There should be means tests for these sorts of things, just like there is for users of the VA Health system - which I used when I was flat on my back poor after a business failure, nearly free of charge -- but once I found my way back to making a decent living, I am no longer eligible for the free VA health care.

Or, student loans which screen for your "expected family contribution" before moving to determining eligibility for Pell Grants and other government financial aid.

We are not slamming on the guy because he is in a hard situation, but we do consider that he has planned poorly. Moreover, he still has recourse to resources which would not require government intervention.

And as for the charges that removing his kids from the school (a stupid charge, and a stupid move, if indeed those kids do have those scholarships) - assuming he was paying the full $40k tab out of his wood crafting fund, then yes... I'd say putting them into public school (at that point) wouldn't be ideal, but it would suffice.

Now other middle class folks without the Frosts' resources, and in their situation... then fine, let them make use of the S-CHIP.

But at the same time, let's not conflate this into a case for requiring mandatory national socialized health care programs.