Alright, That's Enough On Graeme Frost

I did some research into the Frost family last night but was just going to let it go, no need to pile on, etc. But Think Progress doesn't seem to want to let it go. So, I'm posting what I turned up after I say my piece.

See those faces at Right? No, not the kids. This was never about the kids, Graeme, or otherwise. It's tragic that they were injured so severely. But it's also tragic that apparently F Halsey Frost, otherwise known as Daddy here, never learned to take responsibility for himself, or give up options he wasn't prepared to support. Why bother, one can always call on the American taxpayer for that?

This story is about the parents, Bonnie and F. Halsey Frost who grew up with all the advantages and, despite what I might assume is a liberal view on abortion, not only most likely support that free choice; if someone wants to have kids, they apparently believe it's cool to play with wood, or hold low-paying, fun, or perhaps lower stress jobs without having to worry about providing for whatever number of moppets one might feel like dropping into the world. I guess it's, let someone else pay for it, in their world view. I'm thinking F H learned that and little else from his Daddy.

Do they have any idea of the number of people who stay in less than great jobs precisely so their kids can have excellent benefits? It's called sacrifice, something Bonnie and F don't seem to think is their job. Nah, let's leave that to American taxpayers, many of whom don't even make as much as they do and certainly don't have the long line of private schools in their past.

How about getting Dad to cash in on the vintage 1956 T-Bird, 56 being the year he graduated from Princeton, F H? Doesn't he care enough about his Grand kids? I mean, that question's fair game, right? After all, you weren't too ashamed to put it to us by allowing your child to be used by a liberal political machine, right?

That's the car that recently won him third place in an antique car show. He has money to help send the Princeton Band on the road - how about calling Dad next time you need some help instead of trying to reach into the collective pocket of the American taxpayers, you irresponsible, simpering wimp.

I hate to pile on here, but some of what I've been reading given a deeper search kind of steams me. Following up on Michelle's post on Graeme Frost, meet Mr. and Mrs. A. Corwin Frost of Bronxville, N.Y.

That would be Princeton '56, as in they were able to cough up some dough to help send the Princeton Band to San Diego. Take third place in the Manchester Antique and Classic Car Show with their '56 T-bird. Must have been fun tooling around Princeton in that, I'd bet. Of course now, they're reduced to tooling around in "affluent" Bronxville - Corwin is Chairman of the Planning Board - keen to keep the riff-raff out of the hood, or so it seems.

"The more we hear, the more we think he may be an undesirable guy," said Frost. "We don't know his real motivation."

Bronxville is an affluent bedroom community of 6,200 people in southern Westchester County, about 15 miles from mid-town Manhattan. In a one-square-mile village dominated by Tudor, Victorian and colonial homes, Green's warehouse home would be by far the largest and most peculiar.

There was money for the Alumni Walkway at a Private School in Bronxville, looks like Corwin went from there straight to Princeton. I assume he does alright given this billion dollar NJ project he ran. There are three generations of Frost architecture in the archives of American Art.

Yes, the Frost children are victims, but not of conservatives. They look more like victims of a couple of mostly spoiled brats who became parents and never felt compelled to take responsibility for themselves when it came to the bottom line on that. There are poor people in America who need help, particularly as regards Health care. The point is, the family above shouldn't be and simply aren't among them. Call Dad next time you want some bucks FH. And kindly leave the rest of America's collective wallet the hell alone.

Or, hey, get a second job with benefits. I've done that more than once in my life when I needed the cash. And do it before you let Graeme tell the media how much you struggle to take care of him, because there are enough people in America who really do struggle with these issues. And when they take a look at your lot in life they are left far from impressed and unmoved to cough up one thin dime so you can enjoy afternoons playing with your lathe, or whatever the hell else it is you do in your factory.

I don't see someone who needs my help in F Halsey Frost. I see a simpleton and a loser who had more kids than he could afford and doesn't appear to have given up very much in life to deal with that situation. Who knows, maybe Dad figured it out, too and cut him off. What the hell, there's always welfare, right?

Comments

[brainy435]

"Or, hey, get a second job with benefits."

Isn't he self-employed? Maybe the dems should get on this deadbeat employer to offer health care the way they get on Wal-Mart.

Just sayin'...

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

They both look healthy enough to work to me. Strange how single moms without child support can find thier way to health care, but these two able bodied people can't. The kids go to private school which costs 20k a year.

[seekeronos]

"--- ...The kids go to private school which costs 20k a year. ---"

Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y'know, the bulk rate?)

Maybe Mr. F.H. Frost should re-evaluate his business model, or pack it in and sell the woodshop and ask Daddy for a real job.

[Capitalist Infidel]

I'm self employed and my insurance costs $265 a month. There are plans as low as $70 a month. If he just chose the cheapest family plan almost all the expenses would have been paid. It seems bizarre to me that people will not accept any personal responsibility.

[Lala]

I'm paying $449.50 per month for my 23 year old for insurance under COBRA in New York State. When the 18 months are up I can keep the insurance by paying $1000.00 per month.

New York State probably has the highest health insurance premiums in the country due to their various mandates.

I would prefer just to have major-medical insurance for her and pay the doctor bills out of pocket, it would be cheaper, but I am stuck as New York State doesn't allow it.

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

Lala: Don't feel too bad we will all likely be in similar circumstances in two years.

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y'know, the bulk rate?)"

They have four kids but apparently only two go to private school and it's 20K each. Yet they "claim" a combined income of 45k. Very interesting, these people. I googled the name.

[djm1992]

"Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y'know, the bulk rate?)"

I've seen on various blogs that it's 2 kids @ 20K/kid, but I've also read that they are also getting some sort of subsidy, so it's in the neighborhood of 11-12K/kid.

There are lots of aspects to this story that frost me (pun fully intended), but one that really stands out for me is the educational expenses. I know everybody wants the best educational opportunities for their kid, but good lord, 12K per kid for education when they don't have health coverage? Send them to public school, and there's your cash for health insurance -plus some extra to spare.

[Ken]

"I know everybody wants the best educational opportunities for their kid, but good lord, 12K per kid for education when they don't have health coverage?"

The amount of ignorance on this subject is astounding. Perhaps you need to research more to found out what the Frosts are paying.

(Hint -- the password is "scholarship")

[WHS]

You get 'em, Dan. It's so nice to see you chickenhawks find an enemy you're all willing to stand up to. Iraqis? Hell no, those dudes have guns and stuff. But 12 year old kids? Yeah, that's right up your alley, especially if they've already been a major car accident.

I think it may be a tough fight, Dan, but if you fight dirty, I think you can take him.

[pinson]

You're all class, Dan. If you're going hang with the first-rate wingnuts, though, you really need to ratchet up the hate and ridicule a bit more. Maybe make fun of Graeme's brain-damaged sister or something, like when Rush jiggled around to make fun of Michael J. Fox's Parkinson's disease. Or do like Malkin and start stalking the family.

[Korla Pundit]

Hey, WHS, you said it wrong. Get it right. Here's how to say it:

"Won't somebody think about the CHILDREN?!"

Using kids as human shields: it's what Lefties consider the first resort.

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

Well Ken, let us assume these kids are recieving 100% scholarships (they aren't but lets play). I raised three kids, sent them to private school AND wifey to college. I worked 2, sometimes three jobs to do it. I've always had health insurance because I chose jobs that paid half. If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building and has a wood working company in business since the early nineties, in Baltimore of all places. The biz is making in the millions yearly....he can afford insurance and should have it for employees. If he isn't doing any better than he claims he isn't worth crap at his craft and needs to go work a real job.

[Krista]

Looks like everybody loves the entrepreneurial spirit -- unless that entrepreneur's kids need governent-funded healthcare, in which case the cries of "get a real job, you bum" become rather overwhelming, don't they?

Besides, even if the father HAD switched jobs after his kids were injured, in order to obtain med coverage, the kids would likely not have been covered, due to pre-existing conditions, or he would have been covered, but with a max. benefit cap, which would have very rapidly been reached.

Wake up. There are middle-class, hardworking, God-fearing, NORMAL families who are only one accident or illness away from six-figure medical bills. What the hell is wrong with your country that billions of dollars are spent in Iraq, but you people are shrieking about having to pay a fraction of that for medical care for kids?

[Davebo]

Wow, just wow.

If ignorance is indeed bliss Dan is changing his underwear.

Tell me Dan, if the parents earned 75k per year, would they be able to get coverage for two kids with extreme existing conditions?

Of course not.

Perhaps you aren't aware of this fact. I don't know, maybe your dad is a Exec. VP at Raytheon and let's you use his basement.

Regardless, you haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about, as usual. So I'd like to come discuss it with you in person.

I'll email you now for address details and we can try, as Forest Gump's Mom tried, to get you straightened out.

Have Dad get the check ready ok?

[doug]

I know that it's a lot to ask, but ever consider that the grandparents are picking up the tab for the kids private school? Most of the idiots who read this blog live in shacks on wheels, so I wouldnt expect you to know this, but paying for your grandkids education is a common move to reduce estate taxes.

[WHS]

**If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building**

Apparently Wahoo doesn't understand the concept of a mortgage. Sad, really.

**Using kids as human shields: it's what Lefties consider the first resort.**

You mean like using a nine year old to sell Social Security reform? Or using a little girl who's mom died on 9/11 to help get Bush re-elected? Or using "snowflake babies" in the stem cell research debate? Yeah, the lefties have a real monopoly on using children for political gain.

Are all of the people who regularly comment here as stupid as Dan, or just Wahoo and Korla?

[Korla Pundit]

If the Dems have a valid argument for socialized medicine, they would have an adult get up to debate it, instead of hiding behind a child reading their script, and then pouncing on any rebuttal as "attacking childen."

But we all know from what's happening in Canada and the UK, and even from right here at home with Social Security, the VA, Medicare, etc, government interference in healthcare is always disastrous for everybody except the bureaucrats and the politicians. Doctors and patients alike are screwed. And worse with HillaryCare: people would lose incentive to ever become a doctor. Or to do research.

But don't attack a child! No!

[Tax Analyst]

Sir, you are a Riehl dip-wad. The Milk of Human Kindness would likely turn into rancid pus if it so much as touched your veins.

[Xanthippas]

What the hell is wrong with your country that billions of dollars are spent in Iraq, but you people are shrieking about having to pay a fraction of that for medical care for kids?
==============================

See: Riehl World View.

[Peach]

Riddle me this DJM. They are sending their children to, in my opinion, a pretty exclusive private school (42 sf art center, 43 sf fitness center? That's better than some college campuses I've seen).

Both parents come from pretty nice upbringings, both college educated at highly reputable colleges.

I'm a little perplexed at the education priority. For what? As examples the parents haven't put their education to use to benefit their family The father chooses to be a moderately successful at best, self-employed man. I really don't care what people do or how they chose to live their lives, but it "frosts" me when people take for granted their education good fortune and expect others to pick up the tab that education college education was meant for so they can dabble in fine learning and woodwork. Woodworking is great, but if you can't make a living that supports the 4 children you have, time to put that college education to work and get a job that does.

[Tax Analyst]

"But we all know from what's happening in Canada and the UK, and even from right here at home with Social Security, the VA, Medicare, etc, government interference in healthcare is always disastrous for everybody except the bureaucrats and the politicians. Doctors and patients alike are screwed. And worse with HillaryCare: people would lose incentive to ever become a doctor. Or to do research."

Posted by: Korla Pundit | Tuesday, October 09, 2007 at 04:32 PM

Yeah, you're right, Korla Pundit...Social Security, Medicare, the GI Bill, the WPA - TVA, and many more, all total disasters for the American people. Do you KNOW what happened to non-wealthy, elderly people prior to Medicare? Why don't you do a little research and check it out?

[Korla Pundit]

Moonbats reallly do fly apart at the seams when their poster children, both literally and figuratively, are exposed as frauds, whether it's a child reading a script that a dem operative wrote for her, or a military liar like Beauchamp. Their flailing and grasping at straw men and ad hominem attacks become what is known as "comedy gold."

[joeadams]

I used to wonder how the fascists could have possibly come to power in germany and italy. After all, in a society with so many level-headed people, how could it have possibly come to pass that citizens would start to attack innocent members of a community for "ruining the country". And then you and michelle malkin come along and now it all makes sense. Really, you would think you would attack the program on the grounds that you disagree with it, but no, better to attack a family in which the kids have suffered in a car accident. Better to argue about what "struggling" really means. Better to investigate just why those blasted kids can get such a good education if they can't afford healthcare. As a fiscally conservative libertarian, I'm now reflexively for anything you're against, which is funny, because prior to your article and malkin's today, I was very against this healthcare program because it would undoubtedly lead to cost abuses....i'm willing to take a hit on that point and others to come, however, in order to campaign against you and your pathetic compatriots. Make sure you pick through their garbage tonight, because you know, they might have had Steak! And then you'll REALLY have a scoop!

[doug]

"That's the car that recently won him third place in an antique car show. He has money to help send the Princeton Band on the road - how about calling Dad next time you need some help instead of trying to reach into the collective pocket of the American taxpayers, you irresponsible, simpering wimp."

What else can you expect from a guy who let his brother die alone in a flophouse.

[Xanthippas]

As examples the parents haven't put their education to use to benefit their family The father chooses to be a moderately successful at best, self-employed man. I really don't care what people do or how they chose to live their lives, but it "frosts" me when people take for granted their education good fortune and expect others to pick up the tab that education college education was meant for so they can dabble in fine learning and woodwork. Woodworking is great, but if you can't make a living that supports the 4 children you have, time to put that college education to work and get a job that does.
=========

In other words, ignore what we Republicans have told you for decades about the values of hard work, the merits of being a small-business owner and living in an "ownership" society, and be a wage slave for one of the few corporations these days that will provide decent health insurance so we can avoid being taxed to pay for your sick kids. Unless of course that doesn't apply to the argument I'm trying to make, in which case forget I said all that.

Any principles left over there on the right? Let me get out my microscope. Umm...hmmm...no, not that I can see.

But at least you've got bloggers like Dan Riehl!

[Korla Pundit]

>Do you KNOW what happened to non-wealthy, elderly people prior to Medicare?

I "KNOW" people who are allegedly being "helped" by Medicare and Medicaid. It's crap. They are treated like dirt and their illnesses are allowed to progress and go untreated or treated inadequately.

If you want to continue these programs as-is, that shows a real degree of compassion, I'm sure.

But when you want to force every American onto such government "assistance," then you are trying to condemn us to a Soviet style of hell. The private health system we have isn't great by a long shot. But it's the best of a long list of crappy systems.

HillaryCare is the cure that's worse than the disease.

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"**If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building**

Apparently Wahoo doesn't understand the concept of a mortgage. Sad, really."

Yeah, it is sad. SAD that a genius like yourself doesn't know enough about a mortgage/real estate prices to have a concept of the value of real estate bought in 1992 compared to it's value today. Now your real argument would have been to pose the possiblity that he has refinanced at least once during the period either to reduce the amount of interest paid and/or to expand the business.

[Xanthippas]

Moonbats reallly do fly apart at the seams when their poster children, both literally and figuratively, are exposed as frauds, whether it's a child reading a script that a dem operative wrote for her, or a military liar like Beauchamp. Their flailing and grasping at straw men and ad hominem attacks become what is known as "comedy gold."
========================================
What you just wrote is actually all the opposite of truth, and referring to it as "comedy gold" actually makes what you wrote sort of the opposite of comedy gold. Say, "sadness gold" or perhaps "stupidity gold."

[WHS]

**If the Dems have a valid argument for socialized medicine, they would have an adult get up to debate it**

Nice strawman. SCHIP isn't socialized medicine. It consists of grants to states who use it to buy private insurance, thereby pooling the risk. You really are dumb, aren't you?

**I'm a little perplexed at the education priority.**

You're also uninformed about their education. The boy goes to a school that offers financial assistance to families making up to $160,000 per year. The Frosts pay $500 per year for his tuition under the financial assistance program administered by the school. The girl goes to a special needs school tuition free (you may or may not have heard, but she was in kind of a big car accident).

Really, the amount of stupid that infects this place is off the charts.

[Korla Pundit]

So are Democrats now insisting that public school is not good enough?

That $40,000 a year MIGHT be enough to buy insurance for those kids....

[IslamoLlama]

The kids are going to a private school because the Baltimore public school system sucks and they've got a sweet needs-based scholarship where tuition only runs them $500 / year. You see, much like such academic institutions as Yale, if you are smart but needy you can come in on a scholarship and get what basically amounts to a free ride. Meanwhile, the dumb but rich subsidize your education through exorbitant enrollment fees.

What's more, since when does a man who marries, starts a family, starts his own business, and works a hands-on job at woodworking (as opposed to a mindless store clerk job at Walmart or an evil John Edwards lawyer job) suddenly become some sort of evil parasite? It's not even like he's failed to provide his kids with insurance. His kids have insurance. He's just chosen to use an existing federal program to help pay for it.

What's next? Are you going to bust his balls when he and his wife retire and start drawing on Social Security? "Oh! What a leech! What a parasite!" You going to chase after him for driving on public highways? "Waste of tax dollars!" How about calling the fire department if his house catches fire? "Too good for asbestos and home insurance!" Oh no, he's writing his Congressman, and he's using the Federal Post System! I think I just saw my taxes go up before my eyes!

The biggest joke of all is the Presidential proposed "tax cut for health insurance". The tax cut that's supposed to solve this guy's problems in lu of SCHIP. You think this guy is even paying taxes? 4 kids at $45k a year and you're practically eligible for EITC. That's a refundable credit, the sort you get when you are so poor the government needs to pay you to work just to help you make ends meet. And you're complaining that he's drawing on subsidized insurance? What a laugh. I pray none of you guys are accountants or economists.

[Korla Pundit]

Gee, maybe we can morph this into a thread of how Democrats now are in favor of SCHOOL VOUCHERS!

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"I know that it's a lot to ask, but ever consider that the grandparents are picking up the tab for the kids private school? Could be, too bad it is impossible to switch to a cheaper private school and help with medical bills.

"Most of the idiots who read this blog live in shacks on wheels," Once again, absolutely correct!! And they should all be taxed even more to pay for the medical bills of people whoo live in half million dollar homes, send thier kids to private schools and own SUVs, generally have much more of everything.

[Korla Pundit]

You want kids? You want me to pay your expenses for having those kids? In a nutshell, screw you.

I want to take up glass blowing. And I want a Corvette. And I want to study Old English poetry at Oxford. And I want you to pay for it.

You object?! But... but I had a 12-year-old read the script! You can't possibly object, you monster!

[Peach]

the merits of being a small-business owner and living in an "ownership" society, and be a wage slave for one of the few corporations these days that will provide decent health insurance so we can avoid being taxed to pay for your sick kids.

Please you moron, I am a self-employed small business owner, I just make a living that supports my family and financial responsibilities with no assistance. I also chose to leave a small business that provided me and my family decent health care because I knew I could make more on my own, eyes wide open on fulfilling health insurance myself. If I didn't I'd have to change or should I call you in to subsidize my unsuccessful business because I don't want to be a slave?

[Forbes]

Fact: The two Frost children were injured in a car accident.

Question: Why didn't auto liability insurance pay for the hospital and medical care?

The story of the Frost family appears to have nothing to do with expansion of the S-Chip program. (The Frosts were covered, and the Dems bill was to raise the income eligibility threshold.)

[Xanthippas]

I also chose to leave a small business that provided me and my family decent health care because I knew I could make more on my own, eyes wide open on fulfilling health insurance myself.
====================================================
Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you'd adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"the Dems bill was to raise the income eligibility threshold."

Was it not to be raised to 80k a year? Hmmm, maybe a Saturn instead of a Tahoe and a person could afford $265 a month.....and help the environment.

[Xanthippas]

I want to take up glass blowing. And I want a Corvette. And I want to study Old English poetry at Oxford. And I want you to pay for it.
===========

Well, that's not really what we're talking about here, as you might admit if you weren't a hack.

[Korla Pundit]

The Dems really want to expand the program to include adults and illegal aliens. That's the real issue here, not just a continuation of the program. The use of a child is only a smokescreen. And the mad thrashing by libs here and elsewhere, to the point of inviting harm on Malkin by any random nut, is just typical of the caught-in-the-act desperation of the marxist left.

I believe the last child used by the HillaryCare people turned out to be actually a victim of child abuse, and wasn't sick at all. She was being poisoned by her Hillary-supporting mother, who was finally arrested. But don't attack the messenger, right? The messenger who was being poisoned by the sender of the message?

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you'd adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?"

I think the point would be to have the insurance BEFORE wrecking the SUV. The Frosts had S-CHIP beofre they wrecked thiers. Now what I would do is sell the 400,000 dollar house and move into one half as much.

[jr565]

The whole dem attacking of Bush and the conservatives is whats the strawman. Bush is not out to end the program, in fact he wanted to expand it by 5 billion dollars (as opposed to 35 billion). All this liberal talking about the heartless republicans trying to deny health care to poor kids is simply demagoguery.
But the dems had to bring out a little kid in an attempt to shame Bush is a shameless political ploy, and they got called on it, because their test case doesn't appear to be all that poor and seems like a bogus case. Perhaps they should have found a better test case than a family of four that is getting near free education, owns their own 3000 foot home plus a second building and a business, and who graduated from Princeton and who have what appear to be very well off and connected parents. If anything, this appears to be the test case for why Bush vetoed the dems plan. Because its meant for POOR PEOPLE and the dems are trying to expand it to include not only adults but people in the middle class.

[Larry Sheldon]

If the kids were injured in an accident, what happened to the automobile insurance?

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

"Perhaps they should have found a better test case"

I would be more than happy to introduce the dims to some actual poor people.

[The Brutal Truth]

Since this tactic has worked for the terrorists in Iraq(using children as human shields), I'm not the least bit surprised that: a)The libs would learn from their allies the terrorists, and try the same damn thing, and b)that this strategy would work, given the dumbed down condition of the average American.

This silliness called National Health Care will either come piecemeal now, or it is sure to come in 2009. If you are smart, you will learn how to get around the system as it is being put in place, as your life will depend on it. The best thing for you to do is move out of any big city you might live in, as the demand for free health care in large American cities will make the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Sale look like a walkabout in the Outback. Befriend a doctor, get out of large metropolitan areas with large immigrant populations, learn how to keep yourself healthy, and learn alternate methods of obtaining antibiotics and other prescription drugs.

Of course, if you are George Soros, or belong to the upper income class, then you won't have any problem getting health care, as there will be an alternate system created for the rich. How's that for class warfare, libs?

[Looking Glass]

Lunatic Moonbat Swarm! Is it a full moon or something? Maybe fall break at moonbat school?

[Wahoo Willie Sez]

The Brutal Truth:
Let's add one more idea: Liquify as much of your assets as you can. Buy gold and learn how to barter.

[Lala]

When Hillary is President Mr. Frost will be REQUIRED to cover his employees with health insurance.

[buzz]

Yeah, why don't one of you geniuses explain to us what happened to the car insurance.

"Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you'd adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?"

Why don't I have car insurance? Why would I be unable to get any coverage for my kids? See, you buy insurance BEFORE something bad happens. That's kind of the point. My business tanked? Any other goal posts you would like to move? Since my business didn't tank and I have a 1/2 million dollar house and own the building my business is in and have well off parents, then I think I see a way to buy insurance before running to the government asking them to take the money extracted from my neighbors and buy me some insurance with it.

"What's more, since when does a man who marries, starts a family, starts his own business, and works a hands-on job at woodworking (as opposed to a mindless store clerk job at Walmart or an evil John Edwards lawyer job) suddenly become some sort of evil parasite? It's not even like he's failed to provide his kids with insurance. His kids have insurance. He's just chosen to use an existing federal program to help pay for it."

Oh, well hell. That's different. That's free money. I thought it was from tax money. My mistake.

The very best part of this is everyone of you in here hurling insults at the host and commentators would do a hard 180 if we used this kid and this family to push for capital gains tax reductions for business owners, or tax cuts or school vouchers.