Wow: BloggingheadsTV - A Truth Revealed

Update: The underlying argument is moot now. Beauchamp recants.

For context start with the links to Podhertz and Goldstein here. Then be sure and see Ace's vivisection of Chait and Douthat at Bloggingheadstv, but this below needs to be considered for what it actually means. You see, it isn't the war these gentlemen believe dehumanizes people ... it's simply being in the Military. Basic Training is probably one of the more challenging and, in my opinion, at least, one of the more inspiring personal endeavors one can undertake. I'd like to see all young men and women go through it. But to these folks, who I can only assume have never experienced it, it is de-humanizing. Wow ... just wow. They really don't get "the troops," and given their judgment, it's hard to believe any claim that they support them in even general terms. By their own admission, simply being in the military makes them inhuman, somehow. Wow ... what a pathetic worldview that is, especially during these times.

Chait Claims... That it's perfectly reasonable to say that the story would have read the same way had the "Burned Woman" incident been placed accurately in Kuwait, before Beauchamp entered the war. He claims the "desensitization of war" theme still would have worked due to the "group bonding" that happens in basic training and the like -- training for war, he's claiming, works almost as well in desensitizing a soldier as the actual horror of war.

He finds this credible. Training and "bonding" with fellow soldiers may cause one to lose one's morality just as much as seeing one's buddies' heads being blown off.

Comments

[Joe Citizen]

I think you are kinda straining here.

Boot camp is obviously a process that is designed to transform someone from a civilian mentality, to being someone who is capable of killing other human beings and not breaking stride. That doesn't mean it is a dehumanizing process, but it certainly is desensitizing. This is not a criticism of the process - it is obviously neccessary if you are going to have an effective military, and having an effective military is obviously necessary to having a secure society.

While it is certainly true that this desensitization doesnt cause the great majority of people to turn into crude a**holes who make fun of injured people, it doesnt seem far-fetched that it would do so to some.

And it also seems clear to me that this type of training would be more likely to result in such bad behavior than would actual combat experience. Seeing ones fellow soldiers actually suffer injury would probably instill in the soldier much greater respect for others who are injured.

Anyway, it doesnt strike me as pure desensitization anyway. Lots of human behavior - especially humor, is a mask for other emotions. Making fun of an injured person sounds to me a lot like acting out, by someone who is fearful of combat and/or their own chances of injury or death. In that sense, perhaps this incident is an example of insufficient training, rather than training itself.

[Purple Avenger]

"In that sense, perhaps this incident is an example of insufficient training, rather than training itself."

The "incident" is freaking phony! Beauchamp has already confessed that the whole series of stories were a fabricated pack of lies.

[bloodrage bob]

so beauchamp became a lying lowlife cripple-abusing POS because the drill sergeant in boot camp - who, BTW, are nothing like the john wayne days: no yelling; no hitting; have to take the boots' *feelings* into consideration - he got all mean & twisted because the drill sergeant ... "didn't provide enough positive reinforcement"? "didn't take the time to get to know him as a person"?

jayzus! is there ANY excuse so pathetic or ridiculous that a liberal won't try to hide behind it? any at ALL??

[Joe Citizen]

hey rageboy,

Where do those quotes that you give us come from?

[GO]

Making fun of an injured person sounds to me a lot like acting out...by someone who has always been a complete slimeball, not someone who wasn't trained properly and then became one.

[daveinboca]

Let’s remember that the new Managing Editor of TNR, Franklin Foer, is the spawn of one of the farthest left “historians” on the fake-history bash-the-USA academicide front. Papa Foer has won many historical prizes for consistently unmaksing the evils in America, especially during the Reconstruction, and still presides at Columbia U., where “left” means “centrist” and “centrists” don’t exist.

Evil Poppa begets evil son who enables evil chronicler. Just connect the dots. No fault on the left, as Mark Rudd told me decades ago when I was a deluded SDS volunteer. He smoked my dope & left me with the advice, "Dare to cheat, dare to win." Could be Columbia U's motto!

[Fred Beloit]

"Boot camp is obviously a process that is designed to transform someone from a civilian mentality, to being someone who is capable of killing other human beings and not breaking stride. That doesn't mean it is a dehumanizing process, but it certainly is desensitizing. This is not a criticism of the process - it is obviously neccessary[sic] if you are going to have an effective military, and having an effective military is obviously necessary to having a secure society." writes Mr. Citizen (really Ms nowinkie).

May I ask how long you spent in boot camp that you feel able to accurately describe it? Which service branch did you serve in? If you have the spare time to answer, of course.

[memomachine]

Hmmmmm.

Sorry this isn't some reprise of Full Metal Jacket.

Frankly it's more like Full of Bull S***.

The vast majority of recruit training involves hard physical exercise not much dissimilar to summer pre-season football training. Only you're not wearing pads, the "coach" is even more unhappy than usual and someone hands you a rifle half-way through.

[Fred Beloit]

But, memo, you don't seem to realize the oldest coarsening technique in the book IS PRE-SEASON TRAINING for athletes in all competitive sports. See that baseball player over there. He has been, not dehumanized by his training, but he has been, shall we say, desensitized in his view of his competitors. Same with chess players. Same with business people. All competitors are desensitized by their training. I am against competition, as I'm sure my esteemed friend winkie is. It naturally follows that I and she are against winning. That is why we must run away from Iraq now, before we win completely.