Padilla: Is He, Or Isn't He?

Update: Guilty.

MIAMI (AP) - Jose Padilla was convicted of federal terrorism support charges Thursday after being held for 3 1/2 years as an enemy combatant in a case that came to symbolize the Bush administration's zeal to stop homegrown terror.

Padilla, Adham Amin Hassoun and Kifah Wael Jayyousi face possible sentences of life in prison if convicted of all three charges in the case.

The three are accused of being part of a North American support cell that provided supplies, money and recruits to groups of Islamic extremists. The defense contended they were trying to help persecuted Muslims in war zones with relief and humanitarian aid.

We'll know soon.

Comments

[Bill Adkins]

He might be or he might not -- but this story doesn't have the legs of George "Herbert Hoover" Bush and his predicted delivery of Great Depression II. He's done it.

[seekeronos]

Eh? Why the subject change, Mr. Adkins?

BTW, the seeming collapse of the economy seems to me to be more the fault of stupid people who do not know how to handle their credit lines or save money... and perhaps the banks themselves for preying upon this stupidity (to their own shame and potential doom) by extending impossibly ridiculous amounts of money to people in the form of short-range variable ARMs and interest-only mortgages during the Great Housing Bubble of 2000-2006.

"Blame Bush" seems to be the mantra that you Libs vive and die by these days. Why blame ourselves for our woes... when we can just blame Bush, right?

I guess Greenspan knew that he wouldn't be around to pay the piper with his interest rate insanity.

[seekeronos]

Edit: vive = live. Thinking in Romance languages again.

[chris]

The LORD clearly hates the poor. He tempts them with adjustable rate financing and then mocks them when the banks foreclose.

Amen!

[nowingker]

Part of the job of government is to regulate the economy, thus, if mortage companies went wild offering people mortgages they couldn't afford, adding on balloon and adjustable rate clauses that they didn't understand and the securitized those loans, sold them on the secondary market and hedge funds made a killing.

Who, if not the government is supposed to be regulating this?

Who, is the head of the government? Is that not George Bush the decider?

I knew there would be an full scale economic meltdown as soon as Georgie and his Sec. of Treasurer went on TV and said it was a correction and wouldn't have any impact.

[Bill Adkins]

Subject change due to no other place here to discuss, seeker. And leave us not over emphasize the importance of the current mortgage crisis - it's not all, it's just a part of the whole. fuel prices, grocery prices, mortgage blow ups - and, yes, fuel prices are going down - but why? Because business entities are not using fuel, that's why. I know it's fashionable to talk in terms of 'LORD clearly hates the poor. He tempts them with adjustable rate financing' and 'fault of stupid people who do not know how to handle their credit lines' -- but let's talk about 15 straight raises in prime rate, shall we? Let's talk about grocery prices at your favorite Walton family establishment going up 10-40% - and, of course, the wild gasoline price swings. Boy George and his Administration are indeed the 21st Century Jimmy Carter Administration.

[bloodrage bob]

or, more properly, "subject change due to fact that us liberals all squealed for years that a jury would set the brave noble innocent jose free" not working out too well.

gotta admire the liberal ability to lie with straight face; and have no shame. comparing a stock market that's fallen 10% from **an all-time high** to the carter (disaster) years ..... not too smart, but plenty gall. carter - the worst prez of all time - would KILL to have bush's econ numbers. see, under bush, the market goes UP mostly, whereas under carter......

[Capitalist Infidel]

"Part of the job of government is to regulate the economy"

Spoken like a true communist

[seekeronos]

My thought is that the tampering with the Prime Rate by either Greenspan (downwards, in the aftermath of the bursted DotCom bubble) and Bernanke (upwards, as a way to put brakes on the glut of cheap credit and leverage inflation against governmental debt) should have been handled with much more caution.

Now, in theory, I cannot argue that the government is in some measure, responsible to ensure that the activities of the business sector do not cause the economy to become unhinged. But also, on principle that the government is selected (elected) by an informed, intelligent electorate, it stands to reason that we are the makers of our own misfortune when we do not hold either government or Big Business to account for its sloppy lending practices.

Moreover, we ourselves are only to blame for not practicing prudence in our own financial dealings - by not saving up money or monitoring our own investments with due diligence - that is, with the long haul in mind, and not merely "making a quick buck in the bull market".

And then there is what I believe is probably going to be soon revealed as the REAL reason for energy price contortions - the fact that we are really, really running out of cheaply extracted oil (that is, oil which can be extracted at less energy cost than is gained from the petroleum extracted).

We are at, if not already on the down side of, the "Hubbert Peak", where oil is going to become more exorbitantly expensive than ever. All the obfuscation about "cutting back on energy" and using green energy" and "anthropogenic global warming" is nothing more than a convenient sideshow to mask the terrible truth -- that we are running out of oil, and there isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it.

If you buy your food at Wallyworld, don't be surprised that it has gone up double-digit percentages - the price points at my local Wallyworld for produce in particular have come close to doubling in the past three years alone, almost matching what I pay for from my local organic grocery. (I buy mostly local from a particular grocer, and from some local farmer's market venues mainly because I prefer my food fresh... for example, the sweet corn - at five large ears per $2 - is in season now, and is far better than the 10 incredibly dessicated, brown-mottled wrinkled ears of corn for $2).

And don't get me started on the utterly craptastic quality of meat at Wallyworld. I won't even touch that maggot-fodder with the barge-pole I'd use to pry the BoobinStamford's greasy hips through the door.

Eventually, I think that we will all have to come to know the joys of growing or sourcing some (if not most) of our foods locally -- not so much by choice, but by necessity - as buying those cucumbers schlepped in by the container box load from New Zealand and Red China just won't be affordable anymore.

Coming back to Padilla - I'm personally glad that the guilty verdict was delivered. Trying to justify his detainment in light of an innocent verdict would have been quite annoying, and might have made some lawyers not just a little richer than they need to be, if not for trying to (attempt) suing for damages against the Government.

If nothing else, it would have made for a heck of a book deal and speaking tour on the talk show circuit.

[nowingker]

I don't think anyone squeaked or said that Padilla was innocent or would go free, I remember a lot of people wondering why the government didn't just charge him and take him to trial instead of making up new legal categories so they wouldn't have to charge him or take him to trial.

If you don't think the government regulates the economy then, hard as it is for me to say, you are EVEN stupider than I thought. WHAT do you think the Federal Reserve does when it sets the prime rate? OMG. What regulates the capital markets? Do you think they completely regulate themselves and that there aren't any laws regarding the buying and selling of stocks?????????????

Jesus Christ.

[bloodrage bob]

mah lord, nowinkie: you're even stupider than i thought, which is saying quite something. so - since you're now squealing that the gummint controls the economy - maybe you can explain for us why the clinton administration allowed the market & economy to go downhill in 2000, right smack in the middle of election season?

the markets started nosediving in march 2000, and - according to you - bill clinton *allowed this to happen* by not making it get better? thus enabling the dreaded evil nazibushitler to win? any fool can see that gore would have won easily had the internet stock bubble not burst ..... why didn't clinton stop it? make a few phone calls? order the fed to fix it? prevent it from happening? his inaction opened the door for a bush win! my GOD!! this thing is HUGE!! **HUGE**, i tells ya!!!!!!!!

why would he do that?

[nowingker]

You're right Seek, but as you know, given our sinfull fallen selves, that when somebody tells us 'hey, do you want a no money down mortage?' a LOT of us are going to say 'sure, and how bout a home equity loan'

What I do NOT want to see happen is some kind of government bail out of the homeowners themselves, which will happen if Clinton II comes about. However, the sub prime debacle is going to have a huge affect and the Fed. has to do something to manage it as best they can. And, you know, maybe we should go back to the idea that you lend money to people who show cause why they can pay it back.

American savings are at ZERO, for the first time in our history and nobody cares. Clinton didn't care, he once in a while talked about the need for savings but never did anything to encourage it. Bush, he LOVES it, he wants people to keep on pumping money into the consumer sector because that, and Chinese money is all that is keeping the economy from a serious recession.

Again, we have been told for many years now that we can have whatever we want, that we all deserve designer clothes, expensive cars and big houses, plasma screens and all the rest of it. The lack of savings and huge reliance on consumer spending to keep the economy going cannot go on forever, the piper will be paid at some point or other and that is going to be very unpleasant for this country.

Me, I'm glad the housing boom is over, I'd like to keep some farm land for growing food and some forests for preservation.

[nowingker]

I said REGULATE not CONTROL, moron.

[Dan Riehl]

"I said REGULATE not CONTROL, moron"

LMAO - Care to splain the diff, nw??? This is a "nuance" thing, right?

[Capitalist Infidel]

Back to the topic at hand instead of reading more of nowankers Stalinist rants

democrats everywhere are mourning the loss of their favorite terrorist

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/16/123542/770

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/16/143144/958

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/16/135813/917

[nowingker]

Good lord, Dan, if you don't know the difference between regulate and control then you need to ask for your college tuition money back.

WTF?

There are many laws and regulations in place that 'regulate' the stock market and banking industries. They deal with transparency, fees, amounts of holdings, disclosure requirements on conflicts of interest, how/when/where trades are recorded, capital requirements for banks, what events do and do not have to be disclosed to the public and stockholders, the list goes on and on.

These laws do not "control" the capital markets or the banks. They operate within these parameters which are adjusted, usually in hindsight. That's why after all the Worldcom, Enron, etc. scandals we got Sarbanes Oxley. A new law that imposed new, different, tighter regulations on the capital markets.

I mean, really, WTF? I can't believe you people are this dense.

[Hank]

Padilla may be the most despicable human being to walk the face of the earth - but the fact remains that he is a U.S. citizen and under the constitution deserves due process. What has transpired over the last few years has been an insult to our founding fathers and the principles of this great nation. When they take away the rights of one citizen, we are all at risk.

I don't understand how this basic concept isn't clear to my friends on the right. The sanctity of our constitutional rights should be something tat rises above partisan politics.

[Purple Avenger]

I'm pretty sure the jury was bought by Rove.

[templar knight]

"What I do NOT want to see happen is some kind of government bail out of the homeowners themselves,....."

Me either, winkie. Or the banks and mortgage companies who are at fault as well. But I doubt we will get our wish. As for the housing boom being over, I'm for renovating homes in older neighborhoods, and not just abandoning houses to stand vacant. Many, many poor people, including illegal aliens, have been encouraged and allowed to borrow huge sums of money they had no chance of repaying. I doubt this is any more Bush's fault than it is of the liberals who have supported the same policy. This is one of the examples of Bush not being a conservative.

[charles]

we've got a double header

"I can't believe you people are this dense" we've got winky leading by example,,,

and friendly hank considers detaining terrorists as partisan politics

it just doesn't get any better in the riehl world

p.s. i just love commas,,,,,,,, don't you?

[Fred Beloit]

Wow they've really come out of the woodwork for this one. But one has to admire their brilliance: This from Wild Willy, "but this story doesn't have the legs of George "Herbert Hoover" Bush and his predicted delivery of Great Depression II. He's done it." It is totally idiotic to think we are in a Great Depression. Or, Willy, could you provide evidence we are even in a significant slowdown? Or are you just trying to stop us from schadenfreude over Padilla?

Mr christamfordmum adds this stupidity to distract us from Padilla, "The LORD clearly hates the poor. He tempts them with adjustable rate financing and then mocks them when the banks foreclose." It isn't the poor who have their nuts in a vice over speculating in real estate, you dope. The "poor" don't have enough money to buy condos in Florida. It is condo flippers, greedy fools (A fool and his money are soon parted), and those rushing to keep up with the Jones's who have a problem, not the poor. Stop acting like an ape in a petty coat why don't you.

And last but least from nowinker: "thus, if mortage[sic] companies went wild offering people mortgages they couldn't afford, adding on balloon and adjustable rate clauses that they didn't understand and the securitized[sic] those loans, sold them on the secondary market and hedge funds made a killing." Hedge funds made a killing? You had better look at today's WSJ, you numbskull. You haven't got a clue about what hedge funds do and how they make money.

But LOOK, PADILLA HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY AND IT ONLY TOOK ABOUT AN HOUR. Learn to love it.

[nowingker]

Don't bother trying to explain to them why it's wrong and anti-American to hold an American citizen for several years without charges, access to a lawyer, or any other constitutionally guaranteed rights.

The government has a magic crystal ball, you see. And so the government, if it is a Republican government, can automatically tell who is guilty and who is not, thus, only the guilty are deprived of their rights, which is okay, since they're guilty and bad people shouldn't have any rights at all anyway.

The government would never, never, never, never make a mistake about anyone, let alone an American citizen. They have a magic crystal ball, so that means everything they do is right and good. What looks like the trashing of due process, habeus corpus and a host of other once sacred rights of citizens is nothing of the kind..presto chango...they are protecting all of those rights for the 'good' people.

Get it.

[nowingker]

Um, yeah, I do know about hedge funds and hedge funds did make a killing on trading securitized mortgages over the past several years until the sub prime market started to crack. Now they are screwed.

Temp: I agree, like I said before, Clinton did a crap job on the economy too, he didn't pay attention to the capital markets and neither does Bush. So, no, this particular problem is not a Bush problem its a federal government asleep at the switch problem that transcends partys. A Bush fix, okay I can't say that, becuase Bush could do anything, a TRADITIONAL CONSEVATIVE fix to the sub prime debacle would be much preferable to some kind of stupid bail out for all the 'poor people who deserve to own homes and are too dumb and confused to know what an adjustable rate mortage is' That will be BAD, it will be bad for the economy, though I guess good for home builders and real estate developers.

Me, I think the secondary markets where anything and everything can be bundled and sold as a 'security' is where the problem is and that is what needs to be regulated but there are probably only a handful of people in the country who are smart enough to come up with a workable solution.

[bloodrage bob]

what a profoundly moving speech there, nowinkie. a pity you and your ilk didn't feel that way about the innocent folks killed at mt. carmel; and those like them.

no, see, that was *OK*, because they were creepy white christians. padilla, though - well, that's different.

what you and your fellow liberal morons/CAIR tools fail to realize is that back when your idol bubba ran the show, *he* set in motion the precedent of 'running roughshod over our rights'. you guys were fine with it THEN - just not NOW, right? now that a *muslim* might be hurt by it, it's WRONG! that it?

IT IS interesting - and more than a little hypocritical on your part - that you can muster up such deep sympathy for poor muslim jose, and in the same day demand that tens of thousands of americans "not be bailed out", so they can just all lose their homes and go to hell. for a person who professes an interest in macroeconomics ("we're not saving enough! it's all bush's fault!"), this doesn't add up. go figure, huh?

[nowingker]

What American citizen did Bill Clinton hold without charging?

When did Bill Clinton declare O'Hare Airport 'international territory'?

What extra judicial wiretapping did Bill Cliton authorize?

What secret prisons did Bill Clinton set up?

What torture memos did Bill Clinton ask for?

What 'free speech zones' did Bill Clinton set up?

Who got arrested for wearing t-shirts at Bill Clinton's events?

Who in Bill Clinton's administration asked for a retro-active pass on Geneva Conventions violations?

What 'rights' of mine did Bill Clinton run roughshod over?

------------------

As for the economy, I think its an interesting discussion, but I see that Wingerworld doesn't want to talk about the subprime mortage collapse, you are a one note group, nothing on your mind but the scary muslim terrorists hiding around every corner with a pipe bomb waiting to git ya.

How is bailing out irresponsible home owners who bought homes they can't afford and didn't read their morgage agreements going to help the savings rate? It will encourage more irresponsible behavior because there will be no consequence, either for the borrowers or the lenders.

[seekeronos]

"--- Me, I'm glad the housing boom is over, I'd like to keep some farm land for growing food and some forests for preservation. ---"

Mostly, I agree... especially as I may be thinking about upgrading my digs in a year or two. Buyer's market, one would hope - assuming that prices can down on previously owned single-family dwellings. Land prices (on undeveloped or semi-developed land) are unlikely to come down, though - especially in my area (prime for easy access to NYC). If I had my druthers, I'd buy a parcel and put up a modular - which are just as high quality as site-built homes, if not more so - especially if the factory is relatively close to the building site.

I also like the idea of having a small plot of tillage to grow some of my own veggies (tomatoes grow like weeds around here -- and far surpassing store-bought tomatoes, as the soil quality here is exceptional, plenty of natural black dirt). And I like the idea of preserving forests - although for differing reasons than NW might: I like to get my "dinner on the hooves" on occasion - and if there is no forest, then the aforementioned walking dinners, and the foodstuffs they want to eat, become scarcer as well.

This seems to be a regional phenomenon for now - although I suspect it will eventually catch up in all market areas. For example, in my exurban area, the housing market is definitely softer than this time last year, but it is still has quite a few houses on the market for ridiculous prices, due largely to a LOT of very wealthy professionals who want to trade in a short commute and crowed living and 7-day working weeks for both partners... for long, congested commutes to spacious McMansions that cost a liver and a pair of kidneys each winter to keep heated, along with a 6-day working week for one partner, and maybe a 5-day week for the other.

I think that too, shall come to an end as I see a lot of these McMansions taking longer and longer to sell in some of the subdivisions popping up around my area.

I am curious, NW - what would your idea be of a "traditional conservative fix" to the subprime issue (notwithstanding "not making a debacle in the first place") ...?

[nowingker]

I am curious, NW - what would your idea be of a "traditional conservative fix" to the subprime issue (notwithstanding "not making a debacle in the first place") ...?
-----------------------------------

I don't know, really, I guess it would be somewhere between letting 'market forces' correct it, we saw where that got us, a panic on Wall Street and in the global markets because of no liquidity and a wholesale S&L style bailout where nobody pays any penalty except for a handful of selected 'bad guys' If the government steps in and gives some kind of stop gap loans to all these hundreds of thousands of homeowners, well, are we just going to print more money? Sell more freaking bonds to the Chinese? Try to refloat the deficits are no biggie message point? Same goes for the lenders, I mean, if you are making high risk loans, that's your choice, you are making a LOT more money off the loans and the related risk is, if they default, you don't get any money. Why should the gov. pay for the misjudgements of these lenders? As far as the securitization of these loans and now everybody's got them, institutional investors, hedge fund guys, high dollar private clients, that is a question too big for winkies brain and economic capabilities. If all that paper becomes like a junk bond, what happens to the equities market? We [that's the gov.] can't let it go into free fall.

One would hope someone in the Bush Administration is working on all these questions, but I doubt it. Bush's answer would be more like declaring the SEC a terrorist organization and seizing all the money...okay kidding, but I can't see any of these party hacks he's got in power even undertanding the problem. I mean that press conf. was so LAME.

[templar knight]

"...stop acting like an ape in a pretty coat..." directed at chrissy, is my favorite quote of the month. LMAO! Thanks, Fred.

[Hank]

Posted by: bloodrage bob | Thursday, August 16, 2007 at 05:07 PM Said:

"what you and your fellow liberal morons/CAIR tools fail to realize is that back when your idol bubba ran the show, *he* set in motion the precedent of 'running roughshod over our rights'. you guys were fine with it THEN - just not NOW, right? now that a *muslim* might be hurt by it, it's WRONG! that it?"

You are able to determine my political views during the Clinton years? What amazing psychic powers you have there. Not everyone mindlessly follows whatever a party or president dictates. I would be speaking out just as loudly if a Democratic Administration was shredding the Bill of Rights. I hold the constitution and founding principals of the country above political parties and personalities.

[Fred Beloit]

A pleasure, Temp, a pleasure.

[Fred Beloit]

From Hank: "Not everyone mindlessly follows whatever a party or president dictates." Oh no? Then how come every single Democrat in the Senate, including Lieberman, voted Not Guilty during Clinton's impeachment, Hank old man? Looks exactly like one party does.

[bloodrage bob]

actually, hank, my comments were directed at the increasingly unstable nowinkie. as far as "deterioration of rights goes", how exactly do you know that your assumptions are right? how exactly do you know that you & you alone are the sole guardian of The Rights Of Americans?

how does your slightly breathless moans about poor padilla square with the routine historical trampling of civil rights (by the government) in times of war? blessed sainted liberal woodrow wilson threw hundreds of dissenters in jail; and nationalized huge chunks of the economy in his war. blessed sainted liberal FDR threw **tens of thousands** of american citizens into concentration camps in HIS war. bush has .... well, he's been mean to padilla. and he's listening in on FAR fewer phone calls than fdr did. or truman. (ever hear of 'venona'?) or jfk. or lbj. and even though i'm sure you'd "speak out against this", as you say, you *didn't*, did you. oddly enough, the same liberals who are forever making passionate civil-rights speeches NEVER mention those facts. just as you didn't. coincidence?

the republic has survived MUCH more intense attacks on our freedoms that those launched by bush, hank. hell, i submit that in terms on "net loss of freedom & privacy", i submit that FDR's little ponzi scheme and it's 9-digit number has caused *infinitely* more damage to our liberties than bush ever will.

so - even though you pontificated that you "aren't bound to blindly follow a party or a president", hank, i tend to suspect otherwise. it must be my "amazing psychic powers" in action, huh?

[ET]

The current stock market volatility has less to do with home mortgages than it does with highly leveraged hedge funds selling stocks to raise cash to cover their exposure to the sub-prime securities they hold. It is more about the complex securities traded on the secondary markets than about your average homeowner. The credit crisis, or contraction of global liquidity, is caused by the free market and will be resolved by the free market, with help from the US Fed and other central banks. The system is working as it is designed.

Overall the US economy is very strong and other economies around the world are experiencing unprecedented growth. Sorry Chrissy and nowang, nothing here to blame on Bush. However, there was an earthquake in Peru yesterday...Let's hear your theory of Bush's involvement in that!

[narciso]

Well Reno, did hold Mazen al Najair; a relative of Sami Al Arian without charging him; on suspicions of an assasination attempt. There was of course Echelon, and restrictions lifted
by the 1996 Anti-Terrorist Act; the rendition program to places like the Citadel in Cairo;
Egypt first began around 1997. One does recall a couple in Chicago, who were put under FBI
scrutiny after some rather pungent comments; after the Khobar Towers bombing. The Geneva
Conventions don't apply to people not in uniform, not a member of any recognized national
militia; et al. The Gorelick memo, that formalized an informal feud between the FBI and CIA;
was a very stupid move, which didn't prevent the author from sitting on the 9/11 commission
to investigate the very sort of problems that caused 9/11; later using that information to defend
a plaintiff in a terrror related civil suit.

To answer the second question; economies run in 8-10 year cycles, 82-90, 92-00, 52-00, 21-29,
et al; so I think we're a bit premature on declaring the next depression or recession. This
last little kerfluffle began because a sub prime lender actually got a credit line to deal with
its problems; if they had failed to secure one; could it have been any worse

[Fred Beloit]

nowinkie seems a bit ambivalent, for her, but still managed to come up with this beauty:

"...letting 'market forces' correct it, we saw where that got us, a panic on Wall Street and in the global markets because of no liquidity..."

A panic on Wall Street? Let's take a look at this "panic" a little more closely shall we? How are the 500 largest company stocks doing for the year (year to date)?

Vanguard Value Index down 0.7 %
Vanguard Growth Index up 2.4 %
Vanguard S&P 500 Index up 0.6 %

We are not going to get rich this year, looks like. But only a brainless idiot or someone with an agenda unrelated to telling the truth would call this a market panic. Even a 10% loss is normally termed a correction.

[seekeronos]

FWIW, we are still doing much better than most of the other economies out there.

I was watching the DJIA and other American market indices against other world markets, and for yesterday, our "market contraction" against the previous day's trading was in the ballpark of -0.012%

That's right, not even a full percentage point. Other indices ranged from larger fractions of a percentage point, to low single digit percentage points (mostly in S.E. Asian markets).

In the long run, things will be tighter... but for the ultra rich, this is only a minor bump in the works. They will continue to amass fortunes that regular schmoes like us will never see, much less imagine.

As for the middle classes, the better part we can do is to save up where we can, put aside some "free risk money" that we don't mind using, and wait for things to generally bottom out (which I think they are in the process of doing over the next week or so)... and re-invest in promising stocks/portfolios depending upon (caveat emptor, as always) past performance factors.

The main part of that is to save money -- go against the grain of what mass consumer culture has taught us.

[Fred Beloit]

What are you up to Seek, pulling a Jon Edwards?

"...but for the ultra rich, this is only a minor bump in the works. They will continue to amass fortunes that regular schmoes like us will never see, much less imagine."

Nah. Just teasing.

"The main part of that is to save money -- go against the grain of what mass consumer culture has taught us." That's better. And good advice.

[Hank]

bloodrage bob,

It is a fact, that Padilla is an American Citizen. It is a fact that he was held 3 and half years without due process. As I said earlier, Padilla might be the most despicable piece of crap to walk the face of this earth. However, we are a nation of laws that set forth guidelines on how to deal with people accused of crimes. These guidelines were discarded. If they can discard the constitution for one U.S. citizen, they can do it for others. That gives me little comfort.

There has been an American tradition of trampling constitutional rights during times of war - Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt, Johnson, Nixon and on and on. Yes, presidents of both parties. History has shown that when the dust settles and we look back at these unfortunate episodes, we conclude they were wrong.

If I was old enough to have been around in the days of FDR, I would have also spoken out against the trampling of our constitution. It doesn't matter what party does it - or whether it has been done in the past - The fact that it is happening now is the important thing.

[bloodrage bob]

"we conclude they were wrong", hank, but then the government goes right ahead and does them *again* in the next wartime. just like they *always* have done.

and still the republic somehow manages to survive.

again: lincoln - jailed hundreds, used the military to enforce his dictats. wilson - jailed thousands, nationalized the economy. fdr - jailed *tens of thousands*, used the military to enforce this. i DO believe those were posse comitatus violations, yet the history books make no mention of this, do they.

bush - mean to padilla, listening in on fewer phone calls than fdr ever did.

yes, *in the pure sense of the constitution*, that's wrong. but then so is paying income tax, social security, gun-control laws, drug laws, and every government spending program that's not related to the military (constitution says no standing army, BTW), or the post office, or road-building.

after we have our huge spontaneous mass demonstrations to rid us of the noxious **mandatory** (don't see the word "mandatory" in the constitution, do we?), "social security" ponzi scheme, THEN i'll worry about padila. but not until lon horiuchi gets his sorry ass thrown in jail. until then, padilla can FOAD.

[seekeronos]

In some sense, one could argue that we have outgrown any capacity to interpret and understand the Constitution in the capacity and era for which it was written.

I mean, let's take "no standing army". That isn't even remotely reasonable, in the context of our national security "needs", especially since the Spanish-American War (or even the Mexican-American war).

True adherence to the spirit of the Constitution ended under the (practically) martial law and dictatorial and "emergency" powers exercised by Lincoln, and continued by every other occupant of the White House since.

The Confederate States of America banded together to oppose federalism gone awry, and they were mercilessly stamped out of existence and brutally subjugated under a harsh occupation for "leaving the plantation", that is, the extreme federalist construct that the USA had become.

(Side note: No one shall say that the many members of the defunct CSA were wong for keeping slaves... slavery was and is wrong, an unspeakable evil - but shall the enslavement of a state's sovereign rights to determine its course according to the powers that were duly relegated to it by default of those rights not being overrruled by explicit mention in the Constitution... shall this not be any less grievous an injury against the rights of men created Free by their Sovereign Creator?)

Yet for all this, we have long grown up - in fact more than four or five generations have passed since Lincoln, and we take the supremacy of the Federal Union to be nearly divine writ against the feeble power of the states. Moreover, the Federal Union's power of the fates of individual men is far greater than the hold King George III of Great Britain, for all his tyranny, could ever dreamed of holding.

However, we take it for granted, as we pay into the SSA, and the income tax, and all the other sundry and unmentionable "secret taxes" that eat away at our substance.

Moreover, we are content to pay the price to wage the good war against Islam (which certain threatens our nation with terror and a great doom, should we fail to answer it).

Perhaps then, we shall find that the vicissitudes of our fortunes and lives in the dawning of the third millennium have rendered that ancient, beautiful, worthy document to be a nearly irrelevant form to modern governance -- becoming as much of a figurehead as the Queen of England, or the Mikado of Japan.

[seekeronos]

EDIT: "No one shall say that the many members of the defunct CSA were wong for keeping slaves..."

SHOULD read as follows:

"No one shall say that the many members of the defunct CSA _weren't_ wrong for keeping slaves..."

[bloodrage bob]

dude.

august is really not the month to be writing words like "vicissitudes". it's been too frickin hot for too frickin long to be trotting out that stuff. august is the time to say "let us impale their heads upon pikes". things like that.

'vicissitudes' is really more of a *january* kind of word, i've always thought. in any discussion of our long (and, sadly, voluntary) march towards servitude to the state, the weather must always be considered.

[seekeronos]

"--- august is really not the month to be writing words like "vicissitudes"... august is the time to say "let us impale their heads upon pikes". things like that. ---"

Ok. I'll meet you halfway then, as the heat is a bit too stifling to do any real work (I mean, you *do* know how many foot-pounds of force is needed properly drive a 6' metal spike through someone's head) - especially if they belong to big ol' tubs of goo like the Boob?

Let me suggest shooting them at range with a Roman ballista. Does nearly the same quality work, don'tcha think?

[Fred Beloit]

So this is what they mean by sunshine patriots, or was it sunshine soldiers. Wonder how hot it is on the playing fields of Fort Riley or Parris Island today?

[Phoenix]

Ha Ha Ha... BB..... you crack me up. You guys are too funny. I love nothing better than to be reading along and to come across a comment so frickin hilarious and unexpected...... I'm weeping from laughing....hahaha.

F, my hot patriot... I lived at Fort Riley when I was a mere nublette. I recall the temperature one night was 114 degrees.

Your still hot American, P

[Fred Beloit]

You probably know more about the playing fields of Ft. Riley than I do, P, my fellow American. I was only there for eight weeks, but it was in July and August.

[Rich Casebolt]

Let us understand the consequences of "saving the Constitution", as chris, Bill Adkins, nowingker et. al. define it.

Their approach is to treat those, acting in the capacity of a belligerent government, as just another set of criminals ...

... trying them in open court, where the requisite public disclosures would hand information about the highly-effective sources and methods we used to find, evaluate, track, and capture the defendants to the enemy on a silver platter.

... with the trials under the control of activist judges, whose propensity to create new rights and new laws out of whole cloth would leave the Geneva Conventions ... which do NOT grant POW protections to enemy combatants that do not meet the requirements for ID methods and treatment of noncombatants ... in tatters.

... that is, when they weren't unilaterally leaking the information I described above, ignoring any safeguards instituted to prevent the disclosure of that information, in order to remain consistent with their personal ideological persuasions.

Defendants' rights were intended to protect a defendant from a capricious government ... not protect agents of a foreign government who are engaged in acts of war while posing as noncombatants.

They already fall under more suitable classifictions ... spy, saboteur ... that the Geneva Conventions and our own legal precedents already have extensively addressed ... and it is a measure of our gracious nature as a people that such as these are sent to Gitmo, instead of six feet under on-the-spot.

I understand why the critics want to "save the Constitution" this way ... for they are highly skeptical of our government's ability to administer justice in these matters.

But their approach is highly selective ... otherwise, they would be calling for investigation after investigation of many of their fellow-travelers in criticism, on matters ranging from the loss of 800 FBI files at the White House a few years back, to top-secret paper underwear tests by a former National Security Advisor ... and be calling for investigations of Loral, before they call for investigations of Halliburton.

The silence I hear from them on these matters, speaks volumes about their true motivations.

However, the greater problem is that their approach to justice for terrorists corrodes the ability of the Government to perform its primary function ... to secure the inalienable rights of the People.

I share some of their skepticism ... but I also know how their Pharasaical devotion to disclosure and "openness" has worked against protecting our inalienable rights, specifically the rights to life and liberty.

[Fred Beloit]

Good summary, RC. In addition what is one of the radically anti-win aspects of this war has been the lack of keeping military secrets. This aspect, which is so different from all other wars we , and others, have ever fought, has reached such depths of absurdity that even the highest ranks of the military now show no concern over it.

The MSM, informed BY THE MILITARY, now routinely reports, without any complaint from officials who should know better, information in advance about troop strength, American casualties, troop movements, targets, objectives, current and future tactical techniques and strategic plans.

This gift to the enemy we owe to the Democrats in Congress and their friends in the MSM. The current Administration has been so frequently and viciously attacked and distracted by trivial but over-hyped "scandals" that they have lost some of their will to fight the enemy-friendly Dems and media. That we seem to be winning lately is nothing short of a miracle.

[Fred Beloit]

May I just add, the miracle has been made possible by the great fighting ability and weaponry of our military forces and in spite of all this navel gazing here at "home".