It's The Marketplace, Stupid!

Before I get to an item at Think Progress that presents a serious threat to our freedom, I'd like you to take a look at this USA Today Nielsen link. While I may not agree with the preferences of many Americans when it comes to what they choose to watch on TV in the evenings, I wouldn't advocate passing legislation which would make the broadcasting of it unprofitable for the networks involved.

Top 20 listings for broadcast programs, including viewership for the week and season-to-date rankings. An "X" indicates a one-time-only presentation or program not normally assigned to a given timeslot.

Look at the similarities between many of the programs:

House - Grey's Anatomy - CSI - CSI: Miami - NCIS - Criminal Minds - Shark - CSI: NY

Crime dramas ... gee, how can that be? Are these leading to an increase of crime in America? Should we ban them, or make them unprofitable to broadcast? The answer to both questions should be a resounding No. Now look at this via Think Progress Regressively:

The Center for American Progress and Free Press today released the first-of-its-kind statistical analysis of the political make-up of talk radio in the United States. It confirms that talk radio, one of the most widely used media formats in America, is dominated almost exclusively by conservatives.

Yes, it most assuredly is. And that is because it is what a clear majority of Americans wish to listen to as regards that particular media. And anyone who attempts to draft and pass legislation that would ignore the marketplace that has created the current talk radio situation is engaging in a type of government censorship commonly associated with the former Soviet Union and current dictatorships such as that of Hugo Chavez.

Censorship is defined as the removal and withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body.

The liberal powers that be behind the current movement to curtail free speech, as dictated by the free market in America, dislike and distrust capitalism because they cannot control it. They are against talk radio for the very same reason. All Americans need to come to understand the tremendous threat to our freedom that is represented by the coming push for some new form of a Fairness Doctrine and reject it as un-democratic, as well as un-American.

Given our forms of both economics and government, there is nothing more purely democratic than the marketplace today. That force and not the government should dictate what information is most readily available to us as citizens with the ability to make up our on minds about what we see, hear, or read.

And that says nothing of the tremendous lack of respect for you as Americans these liberals betray by their efforts to control our media. They think Americans are sheep and will follow something simply because they hear it, as opposed to seeking out that with which they basically agree, or enjoy listening to for entertainment and information. That's nonsense. Any effort to revive the Fairness Doctrine must be opposed with the collective effort of everyone with a voice in new media.

Comments

[Fred Beloit]

The so-called "Employee Free Choice Act" the Libs/Dems are trying to move through Congress and now this "Fairness Doctrine" rising from the dead. The sweeter the name, the nastier the ideas behind it. "Employee Free Choice" means denying employees a secret ballot in elections for union representation. "Fairness Doctrine" is the name for imposing censorship on TV/radio to return the Dems/Libs to absolute control of the broadcast media as it was from the 50s through many of the 90s. Good post, Dan. Glad you are still at it. Who knows what deviltry winkadoodle, LOL, tbthemost and the Boob would be up to without you to attack and us to insult and argue with. It is our patriotic duty to keep these pacifist clowns busy and make them love it.

[IslamoLlama]

Wasn't there a big conservative whine fest about colleges not having enough conservative professors? Something about Yale and Harvard poisoning the minds of our youth? Remember when conservatives threw a hissy-fit because the MSM wasn't covering enough news in a conservative fashion? How about all crusades against the liberal Hollywood elite, and the cry for more conservative movie producers?

How quickly we forget.

The rise of Conservative Talk Radio can be directly linked to the rise of super-broadcaster conglomerates. Every time ClearChannel gobbles up another dozen local radio stations, Rush Limbaugh somehow makes his way on to that many more radio sets. And the fact that ClearChannel hasn't gone bankrupt yet from their content has nothing to do with the market hegemony they've created for themselves. It's just that talk radio is so gosh darn appealing.

How can "Big Business" Conservatives know so absolutely little about business?

[templar knight]

Hmm...the hypocrisy of the liberal. Old HairyIslamoFascistBob now wants to control the airways, just because they allow another view. How fascist of you, little queer. Color me NOT SURPRISED. The only free speech liberals care about is theirs, and to hell with everyone else.

[macacawins]

'How can "Big Business" Conservatives know so absolutely little about business?'

You assume that the mouthbreathers on here are big business conservatives. This crowd is actually the trailer park conservatives of the Stem Cells=bad, Creationism=good variety. The backward fools are afraid of their own shadow and think that the 'muslims' are going to attack their nascar tracks and walmarts and enslave their fat wives.

They're good for a laugh though!! This may be a 4th rate blog, but it provides 1st rate entertainment!

[templar knight]

Hahaha....sockpuppet alert...IslamoFascistBobmacacawins is talking to himself again. Brilliant stategy, HairyBob. You now think there are two of you, but the rest of us know you for the fake you are.

As for "Big Business" Conservatives, I know enough about business to know that ClearChannel would not host Rush and the rest were they not getting great ratings and lots of advertising dollars. See, it's all about making money, STUPID!

[macacawins]

Oh dear, it would appear that I have offended a redneck. Queer? Fascist? Hairy? There seems to be a lot of stuff churning through that feeble mind. What an angry, useless bunch. Thankfully the Mexicans are sending them the way of the dinosaurs.

[templar knight]

Well, macaca, if the shoe fits, wear it. And who's offended? I have learned to deal with vile people like you, I don't like it, but it's all part of the blogging experience. It's important for people who don't know to see how truly vile the Leftist fringe of the Democratic Party has become. You are the poster boy?.

[Fred Beloit]

The examples of Llama above are comparisons of apples and oranges. He is comparing legitimate conservative complaints with Congressional legislation that aims to censor conservative views and deny workers their right to vote in secret, you know Llama, the way we elect our representatives in this "free" country. Good job of transparent obfuscation. Slog on Censors and rights thieves.

[IslamoLlama]

Careful. Rednecks are armed and dangerous, what with upholding their 2nd Amendment rights. If TK actually sees you, he might get all trigger happy and shoot himself in the foot.

"He is comparing legitimate conservative complaints with Congressional legislation that aims to censor conservative views and deny workers their right to vote in secret"

Actually, I never mentioned unions at all. I was talking about movies and colleges. Although, you're right. Unions are yet another block of voters that Republicans have smeared as "too liberal" and have worked tirelessly to bust up at every opportunity.

Democrats are pushing back against monopoly of the airwaves in an attempt to restore free trade and capitalist business practices. But the free market is scary, when ClearChannel isn't the only bull in the pen. After the explosion of the liberal blogsphere, I can see why conservatives would wet themselves at the idea of people-powered radio.

[southdakotaboy]

Islamollama the big difference about conservatives complaints about the liberal dominance of certain fields and the libs attempts to re-install the fairness doctrine is that conservative want to provide more options for people and the libs want to silence those who disagree with the through punative actions such as fines and other punishments.

[IslamoLlama]

"conservative want to provide more options for people and the libs want to silence those who disagree with the through punative actions"

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1911

"It will take a concentrated and protracted effort by stakeholders – alumni, students, parents of students, LEGISLATORS and others – to reclaim an institution that has become a fortress for the Left."

And some three or four years ago, numerous southern legislators tried to put pressure on academic institutes to hire more conservative professors or risk losing funding.

Ultimately, the "right wing monopoly of talk radio" isn't about the "right wing". It's about the monopoly. I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, just look at how very, very few talk radio hosts there even are. The "liberal-esque" shock jocks like Howard Stern got run off the airwaves for being indecent... and that was it. Game over. No more competition. Doesn't that bother you at all?

[templar knight]

The air waves are much more competitive than television and print, where liberals dominate in just about every venue. You don't seem to be bothered by that, Islamo. You are nothing but a hypocritical tool uninterested in anything other than shilling for the wingnuts of the Left. A Leftist whore, if you will.

As for shooting myself in the foot, I doubt it, but were I to aim at your foot, it would be in your big fat mouth.

[IslamoLlama]

"The air waves are much more competitive than television and print, where liberals dominate in just about every venue. You don't seem to be bothered by that, Islamo."

I'm not? Wow. I must be writing in a font only dogs can read, because I don't see that anywhere in the above thread. You don't seem too concerned about it either, or you'd have brought it up before now, perhaps as some sort of well-thought-out counter-arguement to how even in a hegemony, conservative and liberal ideologues are free to battle it out.

Maybe I'm asking too much. Here, I'll give you one you can handle. "Rush Limbaugh is fat." Discuss.

[southdakotaboy]

The reason that the libs are so desperate to close down talk radio is that provides a different point of view than what they want told. Libs are now suffering the effects of that new media. Under Dem leadership faith in Congress has reached an all time recorded low, Why you ask? Well it is because there are now news outlets to go to that will give you the news that the msm and the Dems want to keep under wraps.

[Phoenix]

God. The libs need to shut up and put up a RADIO TALK SHOW. Who is stopping them? Put up ten of them.

And unions are seeing their power go. Good thing, too. People are refusing to join because people don't like being told what to do. As for the loons on campuses, that, too, is seeing a change.

Americans are recalcitrant rebels when someone tries to tell them what, when, where, and how. Gotta love it.

[Purple Avenger]

It was obviously the iPod that killed Air America. You can't sit in Starbucks sipping a latte and grooving to your iPod and listen to the radio at the same time.

[Terry Gain]

One thing those leftards can't censor.

THE SURGE. (they are surely surging-on Bob)

Friday, June 2007 Mortar systems and weapons seized in Rashid as clearing continues
Friday, 22 June 2007 MND-B Soldiers detain 18 in raids
Thursday, 21 June 2007 IA, CF roll-up multiple caches, fugitives
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Rockets found: U.S., Iraqis team up to foil strike
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Marne Torch continues clearing insurgent safe havens
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Roadside bombers stopped, explosives seized
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Insurgents attack Iraqi civilians
Thursday, 21 June 2007 TF Marne Soldiers attacked
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Iraqi Forces break up sniper cell, detain five
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Operation Commando Eagle starts off strong
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Iraqi Special Operations Forces detain insurgent leader in Sadr City
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Structure struck by accident in attack of booby trapped home
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Suspected insurgent leader, associate detained in Fallujah
Thursday, 21 June 2007 MND-B troops save young child
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Coalition takes 11 suspected terrorists out of al-Qaeda’s network
Thursday, 21 June 2007 CCCI Convicts 99: Sentences 16 to death, 7 to life imprisonment
Thursday, 21 June 2007 MND-B patrol struck by improvised explosive device
Thursday, 21 June 2007 MNF-W forces attacked
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Improvised explosive device strikes MND-B patrol
Thursday, 21 June 2007 MNC-I vehicle struck by rocket propelled grenade
Thursday, 21 June 2007 Al-Qaeda foreign fighter killed
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 Task Force Lightning continues Arrowhead Ripper in Baqouba
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 Operation ‘Arrowhead Ripper’ continues in Baqouba
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 Iraqi and Coalition Forces battle rogue elements
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 U.S., Iraqis team up in Rusafa, find 70 pounds of explosives
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 3-1 Cavalry destroys barge to interdict smuggling
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 Operation Marne Torch continues to net results in insurgent safe haven
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 MNC-I conducts Operation Phantom Thunder
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 MND-B Soldiers capture suspected bomb-maker, 13 others
Wednesday, 20 June 2007 Pleas deferred in Steele arraignment
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Patrol struck by IED south of Baghdad
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Security operations continue in Rashid
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Task Force Lightning Soldiers attacked
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Attack in eastern Baghdad: Suicide truck bomb kills 35 Iraqis, injures 65
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Operation Castine nets four suspected car bomb makers
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 National police repel attack in Samarra
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Statement from Multi-National Force-Iraq condemning shrine attack in Baghdad
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Task Force Lightning strikes al-Qaeda
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 10th Mountain Soldiers lend Iraqis a helping hand
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Six IED cell members arrested
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Small arms fire targets MND-B patrol
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 8 extremists killed, 2 detained during operations in Baqouba
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 1-15 Infantry detains five suspected insurgents
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 3-1 Cav. seizes multiple caches near Jisr Diyala
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 Coalition raids target al-Qaeda; one terrorist killed, 15 suspects detained
Monday, 18 June 2007 National Police and MND-B troops respond to car bomb attacks in southern Baghdad
Monday, 18 June 2007 Soldiers aid Iraqi man after IED blast near Al Sumalat
Monday, 18 June 2007 ‘Garryowen’ troops detain suspected roadside bombers
Monday, 18 June 2007 Suspects seized in cordon, search operation in Abu Saida
Monday, 18 June 2007 11 suspected VBIED cell members detained

[BobInStamford]

Wow, that list is so IMPRESSIVE. Clearly you are WINNING. So many VICTORIES and LIBERATIONS. And OPERATION COMMANDO EAGLE has started off STRONG!!!

You, sir are a hero. Thank you for your service!!

[Terry Gain]

I'm no hero. The heroes are in Iraq. But you, Bob, are clearly an idiot. Cheering for the terrorists. You can't get more stupid than that.

[Terry Gain]

More on the Surge from LET FFREEDOM RING

---
More than 10 Iraqi tribes in the Baghdad area have reached agreements with U.S. and Iraqi forces for the first time to oppose al-Qaeda, raising the U.S. military’s hopes that a trend started in western Iraq is spreading here.

Some of the groups, which have members who fought alongside al-Qaeda in the past, have been providing useful intelligence to U.S. forces about their former allies, according to the U.S. military.

If this keeps up much longer, the Agenda Media won’t be able to give Democratic presidential candidates the political cover they’ll need to win the White House in 2008. In fact, these reports should scare Hillary and Obama because they’ve got to know that they can’t win if there’s dramatic improvement in Iraq.

More importantly, AQI should be worrying because it’s obvious that the surge is eliminating AQI’s sanctuaries. Then there’s this article that can’t be overlooked:

The fighting began after some police patrols were attacked there Sunday night, a police officer and an official in the town’s health department said, both on condition of anonymity out of security concerns. Some local tribesman had joined the fight, siding with Iraqi police in trying to oust the militiamen from their town, the officials said.

“We’re going to finish off those neighborhoods by August,” he told AP. “The people are really responding well, establishing very quickly neighborhood watch organizations and a police precinct headquarters now in every neighborhood,” he said.

Based on the extensive reporting, things are collapsing for al-Sadr’s militias and AQI’s terrorists. If this keeps up much longer, Iran’s worries will be justified.

If this continues, Hillary and Obama, Reid, Pelosi and Murtha ( AND BOBINSTAMFORD -ed note) will be more nervous than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. It couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch.

[Steel]

Listen, if there's anyone out there that does not realize that the Left is not going to relinquish power again, you are delusional.

Just be thankful they weren't able to grab all the guns first.

Because that is what it's coming to, hard as that may be to believe.

And I am NOT being the least bit paranoid or over reacting.

The Left was so shaken by having their power wrested from them after almost five decades, they will stop at nothing to retain it from here on out.

Mark my words ...

If we happen to have a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democratic POTUS and we get hit on our soil by terrorists AGAIN, martial law WILL be declared, habeus corpus WILL be suspended as will elections all in the interests of national security.

If you doubt my words, grab a history book and see just how far FDR was able to go in that direction.

The Left has only begun to fight.

They may be cowards in war but when it comes to a battle for power, they will give no quarter.

Stock up on ammo.

You're gonna need it.

[IslamoLlama]

See - That's capitalism right there. Nice work Steve. Pimp that shit.

[Phoenix]

"Pimp that shit"? What 'shit'? There might be some lib stations out there - you know...like Stern or Opie and Anthony.

You assholes put up some liberal stations and quit whining. No one is telling you you can't.

[IslamoLlama]

They exist. Air America, Ed Shultz, NPR (if you believe the conservative hype) have done well with listenerships in the millions. Unfortunately, they're hedged out and marginalized in a monopolistic system. You can only jam so many frequencies on the airwaves and ClearChannel controls most of those frequencies.

But if the radio stations don't exist - because they've all been stacked out - then this arguement of "why don't you start your own station" runs about as logically as telling a guy in downtown Tokyo to start his own golfcourse.

Again, these are rather basic business concepts - supply and demand, monopolies, limited resources, cornering the market - so I understand if the Republicans on this board have no earthly idea what I'm talking about.

[rwilymz]

"It's just that talk radio is so gosh darn appealing."

It is to a lot of people. Frankly, it's too much like a group of regulars at the corner bar all chiming in with their version of "all we gotsta do is..." in between pulls on their seventh Miller Lite. Corner bars aren't going broke, either. Not even with the neo-prohibitionist MADD skulking around.

"This may be a 4th rate blog, but it provides 1st rate entertainment!"

...sayeth the opening act...

"After the explosion of the liberal blogsphere ..."

Y'know, it would seem to me that since a significant portion of the Liberal voting block is confined to poverty/minority ranks, that those who wish to rally the masses on behalf of Liberalism would try to avoid the elitist methods of communication, like internet chat boards. But that's just me.

"I can see why conservatives would wet themselves at the idea of people-powered radio."

At the idea of ...what, now? "People-powered radio"? or "government-hamstrung radio"?

What were you saying in the other place about Reagan's "nine-scariest words" again?

"The "liberal-esque" shock jocks like Howard Stern got run off the airwaves for being indecent"

So'd Imus. Tit meet tat.

"I must be writing in a font only dogs can read"

That's funny. I'm going to steal it.

"If we happen to have a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democratic POTUS and we get hit on our soil by terrorists AGAIN, martial law WILL be declared, habeus corpus WILL be suspended as will elections all in the interests of national security."

"And I am NOT being the least bit paranoid or over reacting."

Sorry, 'steel', but that's funny too. I'm not stealing it though. It's funny in a "laughing AT you" way.

"grab a history book and see just how far FDR was able to go in that direction."

Yeah. The only prez to suspend habeas was the Republican, Lincoln. And we see how many Republicans did ditto two generations later.

The Democrat FDR was a grasping, power-hungry manipulator, [as are all politicians, actually] but FDR's specifics mean little to nothing qua 'Democrats' two generations later.

"They exist. Air America, Ed Shultz, NPR (if you believe the conservative hype) have done well with listenerships in the millions."

Air America exists? Seriously? You aren't joking?

Haven't the foggiest who and/or what "Ed Schultz" is, but NPR is a stuffy, elitist coven of monotone snobs. Now, I'm what most people describe as a stuffy academician, particularly after meeting me, but NPR puts me to sleep.

Again. If you're trying to appeal to the masses a la "people-powered radio", then dump the tweed jackets with leather elbow patches and market something that "the people" will use when they run out of sominex. And you're deigning to give business acumen lessons?

"this arguement of "why don't you start your own station" runs about as logically as telling a guy in downtown Tokyo to start his own golfcourse."

This may seem apparent to others, but a guy in downtown Tokyo can start his own golfcourse. It just doesn't need to be in downtown Tokyo. Doesn't even need to be in Japan. The constraint you think exists probably doesn't.

There's a radio station in a town not 15 miles from where I live that was, when I moved here ~20 years ago, a polka station which broadcast local girls softball games, American Legion baseball [we have a perennial finalist in the area, year after year], read the local obituaries over the air, covered the county fair [live], and the like. They went broke; took 'em 12 years, but they went broke. It was bought by a local minister to air his sermons and pleas for donations to his local charitable poor house and shelter. That went broke in three years. It's now playing Mexican music.

Since you can count the Mexicans in this area on a select number of fingers on one hand, my guess is that this venture will go broke presently.

So buy it and make it an enclave of Liberal Radio. The hand that rocks the cradle, et al.

Do you have an earthly idea what I'm talking about?

[IslamoLlama]

"Haven't the foggiest who and/or what 'Ed Schultz' is"

An up-and-comer, largely popular in the midwest and west coast. He's kinda the Limbaugh-killer in that he's got Limbaugh's audiance size but about 20 years younger.

"This may seem apparent to others, but a guy in downtown Tokyo can start his own golfcourse. It just doesn't need to be in downtown Tokyo. Doesn't even need to be in Japan. The constraint you think exists probably doesn't."

Perhaps you've missed the analogy entirely. You can build a golfcourse in Wyoming cheaply and easily, but no one will come. You can broadcast a radio station in Wyoming cheaply and easily but no one will hear it. The "realestate", as it were, in large urban areas has been gobbled up and fenced in by mega-corp radio stations. That's called an oligopoly - a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists).

The "Fairness Doctrine" legislation tries to break these barriers in much the same way that "Net Neutrality" tries to keep the internet from being corporatized. It's effectively Anti-Trust legislation, which is good for business as it increases diversity and lowers barriers to entering the marketplace.

Again, this is economics 101, so try to keep up.

[Buzzy]

But all this talk of the fairness doctrine will come to a screaching halt the moment it turns to newspapers and television stations who are owned by very liberal corporations. NBC, CBS, ABC "own" huge segments of our public airwaves thru affiliate stations and we can't allow that, so anti trust measure will have to be taken. Hmmmmm, does anyone know what CNN owns, we'll have to have an investigation and break up their holdings as well. How about the NYTimes, they own newspapers from coast to coast. MSNBC, OMG thats one I can't wait to rip apart and it will happen right after the lefturds let the genie out of the bottle with their fairness doctrine.

[rwilymz]

"You can broadcast a radio station in Wyoming cheaply and easily but no one will hear it."

Then come buy the radio station in the small town near me and change its format [again, for the fifth time this week]; it's got a directional signal pointed at the 11th [or the 15th, I forget] largest media market in the country. Lib it up, my man!

Put your money where your tear stains are.

[charles]

"You can broadcast a radio station in Wyoming cheaply and easily but no one will hear it. The "realestate", as it were, in large urban areas has been gobbled up and fenced in by mega-corp radio stations. "

"The Ed Schultz Show is broadcast from Fargo via the Jones Radio Network to over 100 radio stations (as of October 2005), including nine of the 10 largest radio markets [1]. It can currently be heard nationwide on Sirius Satellite Radio's "Sirius Left" channel, and XM Radio's Air America Radio channel. The program can also be heard on Armed Forces Radio.

because you know fargo > anywhere wyoming

"Schultz continued to experience audience growth throughout 2005 and into 2006. According to a survey done by Talkers magazine, he ranked #5 nationally, with a weekly audience of more than 2.5 million listeners"

"He's kinda the Limbaugh-killer in that he's got Limbaugh's audiance (sic) size but about 20 years younger."

"As of 2005, Arbitron ratings indicate that the show has a minimum weekly audience of 13.5 million listeners, making it the largest radio talk show audience in the United States."

because you know 2.5 million = 13.5 million

well, it leads one to question what other easily verifiable factoids this untrustworthy person is misleading or uninformed about?

just from this small example i do believe its credibility is suspect

if it isn't actually knowledgable or factual of the things it touts, i do believe its military knowledge and political acumen can also be considered highly suspect

interesting

[charles]

"You can broadcast a radio station in Wyoming cheaply and easily but no one will hear it. The "realestate", as it were, in large urban areas has been gobbled up and fenced in by mega-corp radio stations. "

"The Ed Schultz Show is broadcast from Fargo via the Jones Radio Network to over 100 radio stations (as of October 2005), including nine of the 10 largest radio markets [1]. It can currently be heard nationwide on Sirius Satellite Radio's "Sirius Left" channel, and XM Radio's Air America Radio channel. The program can also be heard on Armed Forces Radio.

because you know fargo > anywhere wyoming

"Schultz continued to experience audience growth throughout 2005 and into 2006. According to a survey done by Talkers magazine, he ranked #5 nationally, with a weekly audience of more than 2.5 million listeners"

"He's kinda the Limbaugh-killer in that he's got Limbaugh's audiance (sic) size but about 20 years younger."

"As of 2005, Arbitron ratings indicate that the show has a minimum weekly audience of 13.5 million listeners, making it the largest radio talk show audience in the United States."

because you know 2.5 million = 13.5 million

well, it leads one to question what other easily verifiable factoids this untrustworthy person is misleading or uninformed about?

just from this small example i do believe its credibility is suspect

if it isn't actually knowledgable or factual of the things it touts, i do believe its military knowledge and political acumen can also be considered highly suspect

interesting

[scarlet]

Islamo-off topic but FYI you are incorrect regarding "The "liberal-esque" shock jocks like Howard Stern got run off the airwaves for being indecent...". Ever hear of satellite radio? Ever hear of Stern's $500 million deal to go to Sirius? That is why he left terrestrial radio, together with the obvious appeal of not being censored for any type of opinion or view...he was not "run off". The CBS station he was previously on for approximately 20 years didn't like that he was advertising Sirius by mentioning his move and booted him for that reason. As you come across as quite the bloviator, please attempt to get your facts correct.

[charles]

"rwilymz exposed, the real truth

A no life loser"

favorite ploy of the barking moonbat, ignore message - smear messenger

what a stellar conglomeration of disingenuos moonbats on parade in the riehl world

i now await their next favorite ploy

[charles]

ooopsie - "disingenuous" and pls excuse the double post

[rwilymz]

"rwilymz exposed, the real truth"

hahahahahaha

So ... you can't type fast and therefore someone who can is suspect.

Good sleuthing, there, Dick Tracy.

What's a little hominem, ad or subtract, eh?

[templar knight]

While LOL and the rest of his ankle-biting tribe are gathering their thoughts, rwilymz, I'm curious to know what you suggest we do in Iraq, particularly as regards a partial redeployment in country, with the idea of being able to respond, while also limiting casualties.

[Fred Beloit]

LOL, peace be upon him, captalizes Muslim but not "american" or "christian". From now on he will be lol to me.

[charles]

"ironies abound"

not the ploy i expected, but typical just the same

example:

"rwilymz exposed, the real truth

A no life loser"

see this is not a smear without reply to the body of rwilymz' comment, its me being a wingnut who is out of touch with the american people

simple innit?

-take minor quote out of context, ignore what one can't reply to, apply to something entirely non related, be sure its a non-sequitur-

what a stellar conglomeration of disingenuous moonbats on parade in the riehl world

huzzah!

ps "LOL, peace be upon him, captalizes Muslim but not "american" or "christian". From now on he will be lol to me."

ouch

[Purple Avenger]

Q: How does a millionaire moonbat make a small fortune in liberal talk radio?

A: Start with a large fortune

[IslamoLlama]

"Q: How does a millionaire moonbat make a small fortune in liberal talk radio?

A: Start with a large fortune"

I think that joke goes "How does a millionare end up with a small fortune", Purple. But thanks for trying.

[charles]

hey, did you hear the one about fargo north dakota?

ah - nevermind, it's over your head

[rwilymz]

"I'm curious to know what you suggest we do in Iraq, particularly as regards a partial redeployment in country, with the idea of being able to respond, while also limiting casualties."

Well, there's a few things going on in Iraq.

1] The south is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly Shi'a.

2] The north is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly Kurds.

3] The west is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly sand and barren trackless waste being used by Sunni supply trains from Syria.

4] What isn't peaceful is the central region where Kurd meets Arab and Sunni meets Shi'a. That's where the US is taking tyhe casualties -- and it's also where the Iraqis are doing same.

So withdraw from the center, create a cordon where materials and supplies can come in and nothing -- including and especially people -- can come out. A "roach motel" as it were. Let them fight it out.

Now, that's just what I'd do.

This would get howls of indignation from the soft-skulled sophists who believe that war should be no more dangerous than a PS2 game, with endless replays. "War, sure; but does it have to be so *deadly*??"

If they want a civil war, let them have it. We'll even clear a spot for it.

[redherkey]

Much of the Left's assault on talk radio, Fox News, conservative blogs and public speech is driven by a deeper issue than their inability to compete in the radio format. Check out the latest post "Progressive Castles" on my FuzzyNumbers blog here: http://fuzzynumbers.blogspot.com/ - especially if you're interested in a risk management perspective on politics, business operations and financial markets.

[Buzzy]

You'll have to clear quite a large spot though because this civil war isn't just about Iraq, it's over half the globe. Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg we exposed when we toppled Saddam and left a power vacuum.

Since the former Soviet Union has decided to back the Iranian led Shi'a I'd guess we would need to back the Sunni since they are moderate and don't yell "death to America" quite as loudly. Or if you haven't noticed yet, that's already whats going on, we just play the game stupidly, putting our troops in harms way.

[Phoenix]

Israel captured the president of Hamas. (I think I read the ticker correctly) Now Hamas wants talks with Fatah but Fatah has refused. This won't end well for Hamas. Not even with Syria (Iran) funding them. I hope the same thing happens in Iraq - the two factions end up burnt-out and looking outside for help. That would be a switch.

[Phoenix]

Very interesting expose' at FuzzyNumbers. 'Feudal' thinking and Kafka. I liked it.

[seekeronos]

Ross said:

"1] The south is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly Shi'a.

2] The north is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly Kurds.

3] The west is mostly peaceful -- because it's mostly sand and barren trackless waste being used by Sunni supply trains from Syria.

4] What isn't peaceful is the central region where Kurd meets Arab and Sunni meets Shi'a. That's where the US is taking tyhe casualties -- and it's also where the Iraqis are doing same."

.................................................................................

Not a bad idea at all.

A partition was what I've supported for some time now, whilst the Allies (i.e. the US) siezes control of Baghdad and the oil infrastructure.

Evict everyone out of Baghdad and plow it all under the sand, or turn it into an "international zone" under US dictatorship ala the SCAP in post-1945 Japan.

The rest of the country is split into Independent Kurdistan, The Republic of Bosrah (Shiite zone) and Confederated Tribes of Iraqi (Sunni zone), each under varying degrees of US control/influence.

Divide & Conquer.

[rwilymz]

"The rest of the country is split into..."

If the meddling European post-colonialists hadn't been so intent on drawing lines on their world maps along the old colonial boundaries instead of drawing them along tribal boundaries, we wouldn't be having so many of these problems.

...we'd be having other problems, instead. But all that is water under the dead horse.

Restructuring "Iraq" into a few -- and more rational -- countries would, all things being equal, be appropriate. But all things are never equal. For one, the UN would never allow it. Even though the UN [General Assembly] is comprised almost entirely of nation-built nations which are understood to be ham-handedly created by those who live in them, there's no way even they would sit quietly by while one of the blunt-force concoctions of the British Foreign Office were dismantled and recreated on sensible terms. And we'd need the UN's help -- if not outright participation ["help" from the UN often means nothing more than them getting the hell out of the way] -- in pulling off an international central district.

Next, the soft-skulled sophists in our own country, who decry sectarian violence "that we created", and even acknowledge that it's based in large part on the arbitrary boundaries created a century ago which had the effect of caging tigers with ibex and calling it A Nation, ... well, they'd just have one rolling fit after another if we tried to unravel it and start over.

But from a practical standpoint, here we have several squads of anti-American zealots all fighting each other over who can be the anti-AmericanEST, and removing the turf for their war might allow them to separately plot to bring the war to us. The Central Zone goes to the winner, perhaps.

"You'll have to clear quite a large spot though because this civil war isn't just about Iraq..."

Not really. The US invasion of Iraq is like the pan-islamist version of an automobile accident. ...only with audience participation. People come from all over to gawk, add their $.02, and then recreate for interested parties what they saw -- even though they didn't -- and then when versions conflict, they join in. Iraq is drawing the actual gun-totin' hotheads from all over the region like a magnet. They come because, dammit, the US invaded their soil, but when they get there they find someone from a tribe they can't stand and never could, and they end up squaring off over that.

It's a perfect arrangement ... or could be, if we'd let it play out.

And if a time comes when Iraq doesn't draw the crowds like it used to, just take the show on the road. Sudan, for example. Sudan, in fact, would be perfect, for it provides the soft-skulled sophists of the American Left the poignant photo-ops that drive their "humanitarian war" urge: a multi-million member tribe revolted against a big bad government, doesn't know how to fight, and the government's Rent-a-National-Guard -- who *does* know how to fight -- is very efficiently putting down the Fur revolutinaries. Awww, what a tragedy, right? Fergodsake, even Mia Farrow is in on this one. Second Act: "Suddenly Sudan". So touching, even a Democrat would support it.

*>snffff<*

[IslamoLlama]

"Not a bad idea at all."

Maybe 4 years ago. Now, not so much. You try to evict the millions of Bagdad residents, and you'll be going through IEDs every step of the way. Think everyone's pissed off at us now? You ain't seen nothing till you try to make an entire city homeless.

[rwilymz]

"You try to evict the millions of Bagdad residents..."

Evict? They can stay right where they are. Who they align themselves with is the only issue. And since it's apparently an issue worth killing [and dying] for, allow them to do as they please.

"You ain't seen nothing till you try to make an entire city homeless."

Depends entirely on how you do it. Many entire cities-full were rendered homeless roughly 60 years ago; they weren't pissed off, they didn't form slightly-organized armed rabble. They, instead, were outrightly *grateful* to be given the scraps we gave them.

Why? because their homelessness was predicated upon four years of m/l constant bombardment, to the point where, when the bombardment stopped, they were relieved simply to be alive, and all else was a trivial consideration. And they latched onto their bombadeers as saviors.

War is about so much more than flanking and logistics and firepower and air superiority. It also involves great big scoops of psychology.

Iraqis are pissed because they haven't had to endure siege. There was no siege; still isn't. Most Iraqis never even saw the invasion, let alone felt it. There they were, having a government they despised in February '03, by May '03 they open up the paper to find their country has been taken over by someone else. No muss, no fuss. Well, relatively little muss, by historical comparison.

And since "better the devil you know" is a common reaction to change, and coupled with no trauma of war pacifying them, ... they are pissed and rebellious.

The issue isn't "occupation" so much as it's "occupation of a non-pacified population". Your conclusions are highly circumstantial.

[IslamoLlama]

"And since "better the devil you know" is a common reaction to change, and coupled with no trauma of war pacifying them, ... they are pissed and rebellious.

The issue isn't "occupation" so much as it's "occupation of a non-pacified population". Your conclusions are highly circumstantial."

I think you're right in one regard. The Iraqi population wasn't pissed off enough at their dictator to want to replace him. Otherwise - as so many others have pointed out before - they'd have rebelled and replaced him by '03. The fact that the standard of living in Iraq took a disasterious nose-dive once our invasion was complete probably didn't help convince the population that the devil they knew was worse than the occupiers.

The cruel joke in it all is that you've got a civilian population that was incredibly reluctant to take up arms against Saddam, but more than happy to take up arms against America. The revolution we were waiting for to happen for the twelve years between Iraq I and Iraq II got triggered by our invasion. How ironic.