I linked this already at The Examiner. But after reading the debate between Instapundit and Bryan at Hot Air, I want to weigh in. I'm a conservative and a Christian. However, it troubles me that the two seem so often to be almost inextricably linked.
I value Religion and I value democracy, but our Founders were smart to make a firm distinction between the two. We didn't get to America because some were fleeing Muslims, in case anyone has forgotten. Couching what I believe is the necessary effort to push back against contemporary Muslim movements to demand special treatment within our secular democracy in Christian terms is a bad idea.
I'm all for the freedom of religious groups to enter into political debate, whether it's on abortion, terrorism, or anything else. But I really wish they would come to understand that they need to engage that debate in secular terms. One can make a solid argument against abortion based simply upon the value of life. It isn't required to go back to the bible to make an argument on the preciousness of human birth. And the same thing can be said for any number of so-called values issues.
Given today's challenges, casting the argument against the political-creep of Islam in the US, or anywhere, in Christian versus Muslim terms is a very bad idea. We already have every tool or device we need in our Constitution. We live in a secular state.
The rules in the political ring aren't new. But I do wish some factions would get that. While I am not one to quote scripture. Out of all of it I have ever read, or come to know - this passage below has always been the one that stayed with me the most. And especially when I am engaged in public political debate.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him."
Trying to remove God entirely from the public sphere will result in godlessness - in short, a "lite" version of the same monstrosity called "secular humanism" which begat socialist statism, and ultimately, totalitarian Stalinism (or its Chinese cousin, Maoism).
Man may do well to rule other men for a time, but it is only as effective as the willingness of humans to remain true to an ideal. Without any sense of accountability or fear of God though, Man soon forgets that God is the Ultimate and One Sovereign, and goes about his business of oppressing his fellow.
The FOunding Fathers did indeed frame the Constitution and this nation as a largely secular nation; there can be no disputing that. However, to neglect that in varying degrees, that these same Founding Fathers realized that all of these Natural Rights which were fought for by the early patriots, were not accorded to them through the devices of men, but granted unto them by the Most High God. To this end, we Americans do well and better to acknowledge Him who exalts one throne above another, and is able to establish kingdoms and republics by His will, and in the same, depose others.
Let us not continue to fall prey to the Sin of Sodom: the boastful pride of life, want of nothing, and an abundance of high living which causes us to neglect the welfare of our fellow men and women, and selfishly pursue only our own lusts whilst abandoning God as some useless remnant of a former time.
"Vengeance is Mine, saith the LORD, I will repay".
Surely, if we forget Him, so also will He forget and forsake our nation.
Posted by: seekeronos | Monday, May 14, 2007 at 08:50 PM
"...we Americans do well and better to acknowledge Him who exalts one throne above another, and is able to establish kingdoms and republics by His will, and in the same, depose others."
Seek,
Which God are you talking about? If it's the Abrahamic god, why did he establish Islam and establish that kingdom? Seems to me he could depose that religion real quick and do us all a favor.
As for morality, it comes from the conviction that other people can suffer and flourish as each of us does. It is the essence and the foundation of morality. If it takes religion to teach us that, then we're in trouble because the same god is teaching two groups two different things. Both devalue life on earth by promoting an afterlife that is better, but only one, through the same god, says it's good to kill for that afterlife. Confusing stuff.
"Man may do well to rule other men for a time, but it is only as effective as the willingness of humans to remain true to an ideal."
I'm not looking to argue, but his bothers me. 50 million dead under Lenin, more millions dead on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - You just can't say almost a hundred million people were 'willing' to remain true to communist and socialist ideals. I won't believe it.
Let someone prove which god has it down, and I'll say go for the values things. Until then, a little reason rules the day: Be nice to others and they'll be nice to you. If not, shoot them. More realistically, human nature rules: There will always be war, there will always be abortion. No stupid rules are going to change those realities. Even Sir Thomas More knew that. There will never be Utopia. Ever.
Posted by: Phoenix | Monday, May 14, 2007 at 09:52 PM
"the public sphere "
I don't support that and didn't suggest it. Political is not the same as public.
Posted by: Dan Riehl | Monday, May 14, 2007 at 10:08 PM
Phoenix:
You may disagree with me on this - but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the true God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who exists in one being with the Father through the Holy Spirit, did _not_ establish Islam.
Let me assure you in the strongest possible mode possible in written communication that the God who created all flesh is _NOT_ one and the same with the devil-godling that the Muslims worship, and claim to be yet another face of "the Abrahamic God".
The demonic 'god' of Islam is a moon idol called "Al'Lah" (shortened in modern usage as "Allah"), who was a tribal idol of a number of Arab tribes, including the Qu'raysh tribe, of which Mohammed was a member. Through demonic wisdom imparted to Mohammed by a demon representing itself as the archangel Gabriel, Mohammed and a number of his early followers (Al'Bukhari, Ali, Qa'dijjah, among others) built up a mythos around Allah, and tried to fuse it with the True God of Abrham, the common God honored by both Jews and Christians in an attempt to win converts from those two religions.
Later on in Mohammed's career, he saw that much could be accomplished through violently pressing his demands and pressing conversions to Islam (submission) through the sword.
While God is certainly able to dispose of Islam without so much as exerting Himself, He lets it remain. God is not willing to compel people to obey Him, or force people to choose this religion or that, much less following Him in the only way God has revealed and guaranteed salvation through (that is, through Christ - John 14:6-8).
Simply put, (and contrary to the position that atheists would have people think that Christians are non-thinking imbeciles blindly following their "sky daddy") ... God doesn't want mindless automatons. He wants willing people to serve Him, and the Body of Christ (the Church, that is, other Christians, and not an "organization") out of selfless love.
Do we do this perfectly? Of course not - so long as we are bound to this wretched body cursed by sin, we will struggle against it. Yet, God's grace is greater than our weakness. Does the Christian walk - correctly followed - devalue life on earth? I think not (again, if correctly followed and the believer is daily walking in communion and in obedience to God's Word - the Bible). Rather, the Christian is called to be a witness and a testimony of God's grace.
This world is a generally awful place, corrupted by sin, populated by a human race cursed by disobedience and selfishness and rebellion and an innate separation from God. Yet, Christ came that we might have life abundantly, and share our lives as an open book for non-Christians and Christians alike, ever pointing to transforming power of God's gospel. Shall we indeed observe the "golden rule" ?
The utmost realization of it is a life laid down in service to our fellow, and especially that souls may be brought to the saving knowledge of God in Christ.
Jesus Himself said plainly:
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:12-13)
Concerning the countless millions of dead under (in particular) Mao, Lenin, and other brutal tyrants who drenched the 20th century with much bloodshed, I reckon that most of them were too worried about living from one day to the next to really have much input into changing the ideology or the rules that shortened their likely miserable lives. Wherein they disagreed with their tyrants, they either met their gruesome fates, or if they agreed, it was only so that they could scrabble for another day's food whilest keeping their heads low and mumbling the party line.
My statement "Man may do well to rule other men for a time, but it is only as effective as the willingness of humans to remain true to an ideal..." was rather inteded for us in the "free" world, particularly those who pay homage to the ideals of of a distributed, republican form of representative democracy.
As for "Utopia", that is the faulty imagination of Mankind, who thinks that his wicked, continaully evil heart could indeed bring forth a righteous, just government that would bring true peace between all men (and women). That too, is one of the lies of the devil.
We may have come as close as we might possibly come to an ideal government in the now failing "Great American Democratic Experiment" (and let me further assure you that the failure is inherent in any governmental system devised by humans: it is only a matter of time before tyranny regains her venomous bite and devours a society slowly, poisoning it until it falls gently into the waiting hands of a monster or a group of men lead by demonic desires... save only that society have Godly men who daily bow their knees in supplication for wisdom and mercy to guide that nation in accordance with God's commandments and His revealed will).
The only _truly_ righteous, equitable, and lasting government will come at the close of time, when the Lord Jesus Himself brings all things into subjection to Himself, and He delivers up all sovereignty to His (and our) Heavenly Father.
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For Dan:
"the public sphere "
---"I don't support that and didn't suggest it. Political is not the same as public."
I must respectfully disagree: the political, when decided, rules the public.
If the public embraces a policy that diminishes the influence of Godly principles and turns to something that seeks to replace God with a false idol --- in this case, a strict, legalistic secular humanism that denies any affirmation of God in the _political_ sphere, the uplifting of humanity as its own "god". (yet another classic from the devil's pack of lies, see Genesis 3:4-5*)
God does not suffer idolatry lightly; He shows us in the Old Testament that it lead to the downfall and captivity of both Israel and Judah, and in the New Testament, He warns us to beware of idolatry in our own lifes: the exaltation and disproportionate love/worship of anything in place of God.
"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:6)
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." (1 John 5:21 - the parting shot, as it were :)
I hold that the public sphere that rejects God from the political sphere will, and does, invite evil to reign over it:
"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." (Proverbs 29:2)
We, the people of the United States of America... are in a very unique position in these last days - to choose our rulers. Yet, how soon shall we void that all out by selecting rulers who have no regard for their constituency, who have no fear of God, and at the last, seek to drop the foul shroud of deceit to reveal our that the successful encroachments upon our liberties have yeilded the fetid fruits of tyranny and slavery upon us once more?
With every step we yield to Islamists for "wudu cleansing stations" in public bathrooms or any other group that seeks to remove any remaining influence or freedom of movement for people who fear and trust in the God of the Bible... we edge ever closer to our destruction as a nation.
* Genesis 3:4-5 > "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. "
Posted by: seekeronos | Tuesday, May 15, 2007 at 01:47 AM
Thank you, Seek. Are you a deist or a theist?
I'm a little confused about the Abraham part. Seems to me from my courses in the Abrahamic religions, that Abraham was as much a figure of Islam as Christianity. Are you saying Mohammed hijacked Abraham's 'presence'?
"While God is certainly able to dispose of Islam without so much as exerting Himself, He lets it remain. God is not willing to compel people to obey Him, or force people to choose this religion or that,..."
Why not? Seems as if he could save a lot of humans from dying without so much as exerting himself. Why would anyone want to worship a god who was willing to let innocents die? This bothers me a lot.
Posted by: Phoenix | Tuesday, May 15, 2007 at 10:29 AM
Jesus is make-believe.
There is no God but I AM.
Loraine
Posted by: Loraine | Wednesday, May 16, 2007 at 01:25 PM
---- "Thank you, Seek. Are you a deist or a theist?"
Originally, I had placed any belief in a personal God aside, probably questioning why God did certain things (such as allow the suffering of otherwise "innocent" people, among other things) and probably would have come close to Deism.
Within the past couple of years however, I've definitely embraced "theism".
You see, within the limitations of my natural mind, I've tried to understand what God's will is. But the longer I relied upon my natural senses to discern who God is, the more I failed to truely discern His Divine nature. Therefore, by faith, I must turn to God's Word, and His Spirit which He has given to all who believe in Him, to learn of Him.
---- "I'm a little confused about the Abraham part. Seems to me from my courses in the Abrahamic religions, that Abraham was as much a figure of Islam as Christianity. Are you saying Mohammed hijacked Abraham's 'presence'?"
Pretty much.
There was significant hijacking, and quite a few half-truths and lies which the devil took advantage of to create Islam.
Traditionally, the Arab tribes (not incl. Egyptians or Phillistines, who were not originally a Semitic-derived groups) claimed descent from a person named Ishmael. This Ishmael was a step-brother to Isaac, and Ishmael was born to a maidservant named Hagar. Technically, Ishmael would have been the heir and the firstborn, if not for the fact that Sarah (Abraham's wife) was sterile until the Lord opened her womb for her to become impregnated with what would become the baby Isaac.
After Abraham was born, Sarah drove out Hagar and the young Ishmael, and the latter grew up to become a strong hunter and a wanderer; he fathered numerous sons in his time. This generally wandering nature of Ishmael and his descendants marked their nature until Mohammed's time.
As for Isaac, he became Abraham's heir, and God tested Abaraham's faith by commanding him to sacrifice Isaac on Mount Moriah (and upon seeing Abraham's faith unto obedience), God stayed Abraham's hand, and provided the first "scapegoat" - a ram caught in a thicket by its horns for the sacrifice.
Isaac grew up and with Rebekah his wife, gave birth to Jacob, who in turn, fathered the twelve Tribes of Israel.
Mohammed, under devilish influence, "hi-jacked" Isaac's place in the sacrifice, swapping him out for Ishmael, and initially tried to co-opt the Jewish foundation of God's promises into Islam. You see, at that time, there were a substantial number of Arabs who had converted to Judaism or Christianity, as well as numerous Arabs still following their pagan tribal gods. If by co-opting a substantial common element into Islam he might win some of the Arab Jews or Arab Christians along, then all the better.
Much of what was co-opted ... the dietary rules of the Israelite Levitical priests, the statist implementation of Byzantine Christianity (Roman Catholicism had yet to reach its apex of strength) and other minutiae of personal behaviour came into play, lending a superficial similarity to a few Judaeo-Christian institutions.
Between that and the point of the sword, a number of them turned to this new "Islam", perhaps as ignorant of who "Allah" (a moon-god idol) really was - and it only got worse after Mohammed controlled Mecca and Medina, and the Hadiths were composed sometime later, nearly deifying Mohammed in his own right.
---- "Why not? Seems as if he could save a lot of humans from dying without so much as exerting himself. Why would anyone want to worship a god who was willing to let innocents die? This bothers me a lot."
Seems like it, no? Who though, is truly innocent? With the possibly exception of unborn and very young children, we have all sinned in some way or another. The penalty of sin is death, and we do live in a dying, corrupted world.
And yet, even so, the Bible tells us:
"God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
...
...
... I don't claim to have an answer for why God does what He does in all cases - He alone is Sovereign over all things; but not a blade of grass withers, nor a bird cease from living without His knowledge. He has a personal knowledge of all his creation, right down to the number of hairs on our heads, and what joy must flood His holy heaven when a sinner repents and runs to Jesus's waiting, open arms to receive forgiveness of sin, and with it it, eternal life.
Posted by: seekeronos | Wednesday, May 16, 2007 at 03:22 PM
Anyone who believes in god is insane.
And, since you can't debate insane people, I'll move on.
Have fun kids.
Posted by: goblowitout | Wednesday, May 16, 2007 at 05:16 PM
"Have fun kids."
John 3:16 --- Jesus loves you too. :)
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