Laugh Of The Day

From who else? The worst President in the history of America tries another desperate attempt to make himself look good by capitalizing on Bush's problems.

Former President Carter says President Bush’s administration is “the worst in history” in international relations, taking aim at the White House’s policy of pre-emptive war and its Middle East diplomacy.

Pardon my candor, but Carter's greatest domestic challenge was trying to keep his drunken Brother from pissing on the White House lawn. And he couldn't even accomplish that.

And as far as foreign policy? We have Jimmy Carter and no one else to thank for Iran.

You have to give the old anti-Semite credit, though. He keeps managing to get out of his straight jacket and crawl out from under his rock.

Comments

[Phoenix]

Oh crap, Nowinger. You know damn well Wolfowitz is none of those things you said. I read a great article (of the many) about him last night, and I wish I'd saved it for you. Seems the WB is sneaking money to N. Korea ....one of the things he was working to stop because it was done in the name of: C o r r u p t i o n

But, check this out. I just found it. You can't possibly have a problem with Christopher Hitchens......

Go here: (It's short.) http://www.slate.com/id/2166661/

[Phoenix]

"...ideologically motivated." ? What? You mean spreading democracy and freedom with the express purpose to foster it in other countries? And the bonus is that it makes our country safer? That's some bad mojo of an ideology.

What is your ideology beyond Bush-bashing? Everything the democrats stand for? The dems ideology? Not a chance.

[Fred Beloit]

Yeswanker, Dr of Nuclear Chemistry, opines that all of her friends and all of her enemies know that Bush was interested in Iraq and not concerned about the Afghan. As Phoenix pointed out, however, the Afghan was attacked long before Iraq. Yeswanker's answer to this is ????????? We get a barrage of irrelevancies and this: "From the very beginning there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go." per O'Neill. But Clinton said more or less the same thing WHILE STILL IN OFFICE. Do we get an answer to the question? No, of course not. As has been noted many times in the past, Yeswanker simply forgets all about questions she does not want to answer, but we do not forget.

[Phoenix]

"...if you came to the WB on an anti corruption platform you shouldn't start out trying to get around rules and your conduct has to be unimpeachable. It wasn't." <---- Utter baloney. Before he even started, he went to the honchos and asked what to do about his girlfriend. Go read some 'right' articles on him.

[Phoenix]

Found it: http://www.willisms.com/

Second post, starts with - The Eleventh Mainstream Melee .... I through IV. Snippets from publications @ Wolfowitz.

[nowingker]

Phoenix, even is FRIENDS say he is arrogant. I am not getting into another round of 'prove it' with you over Wolfowitz, he alienated the entire World Bank staff with multiple levels of staff senior and rank and file calling for his ouster, they were wearing blue ribbons to support getting rid of him at WB HQ! It is again, public record, that WB officials believed Wolfie unfairly enforced his anti corruption agenda based on Bush's agenda, that his people tried to change WB documents related to family planning and climate change and that he routinely went around WB staffers to do and get what he wanted. ALL OF THIS IS PUBLIC RECORD. Now maybe you think the WB was so bad that Wolfie was justified in flouting its rules and traditions, maybe so, but you can't run a huge international consensus based organization like you ran your DOD staff.

Oye, dude, where have we spread democracy and freedom to? Iraq is a shambles and the surge to nowhere is going nowhere just as everyone outside of Dick Cheney predicted. Iraq is not free. You need to get out of the state of denial you are and face the facts that Iraq is in worse shape than when we invaded. We have rebuilt squat, basic services still don't work. Our military has become so corrupted by being put in this ridiculous situation of being undermanned and stuck there for 4+uyears with no fucking strategy whatsoever...that over a third of them think its okay to abuse innocent civilians and wouldn't turn their buddies in for doing so, TEN PERCENT of our soldiers admit to abusing innocent civilians. Almost a third of them think ALL Iraqis should be treated like insurgents. I got a news flash for you, if All Iraqis should be treated like insurgents than means ALL Iraqis should be assumed to be our enemy which means we are not liberators but invaders. Good god, let's get out of this sewer before things are broken beyond fixing.

My personal ideology doesn't fit either party philosophy, I despise the Republican positions on the enviroment and 'morality' issue like abortion and gay marriage but I can't get behind the Dems 'everyone is a victim' and all we need is more government programs to solve every problem, However, when push comes to shove I will take the Democrats over the Republicans of today every time. The Republicans like Olympia Snowe, Bill Weld or even George H.W. Bush -- conservatives and realists who didn't moralize are gone from the Republican politics.

[nowingker]

Utter baloney. Before he even started, he went to the honchos and asked what to do about his girlfriend. Go read some 'right' articles on him.
--------

WRONG AGAIN.

He first tried several times to get around the WB rules that say you can't supervise someone who you are sexually invovled with. He went to a few different committes and tried several times to get the WB to make an exception for his girlfriend. They refused.

Only then did the issue of getting her another job and how to do it come up.

THREE WB officials all said Wolfowitz lied about what they/the committe knew about the details of the pay package she ultimately got. Whom to believe? Senior WB officials with long time records of achievement who have no reason to lie or Paul Wolfowitz who has every reason to lie????

[jong]

Wolfowitz helped sell the Iraq War, first claiming Saddam was involved with 9/11 then telling Congress that rebuilding Iraq would cost us nothing, oil revenues would pay for it all.

For this he gets rewarded with running the World Bank?

Where I work, you continually screw up, you get fired. But with Bush, monumentally historic screwups get you a cush job.

George Bush, Worst President Ever.

[Phoenix]

So Wolfowitz has brass balls. Sigh. Crimes and misdemeanors in today's corrupt world, eh? He didn't go there acting like an ass-kissing Frenchman looking to be liked. The fact that he was WILLING to stick his neck out to change the corruption should be worthy of your approbation, not disgust. But enough on him. I'm right and you're wrong.

Iraq is a bad situation. It doesn't change the intent. The intent remains laudable under any circumstances where our security is at stake and where there is a chance we might be able to succor a young democracy for the sake of oppressed people. I think most Americans now realize that we had no idea of the difficulties of the differences in mindsets of Arabs. We don't think as they do, and to our utter dismay, we realize they may *never* think as we freedom-loving, take-liberty-for-granted westerners think. Even if we succeed in Iraq, it will take generations before the mindset is westernized and they can begin to recognize they 'should' think for themselves. I'll agree to that mess/oversight, but the rest of your summation is harsh and off-base. There are plenty of secular Iraqis willing to work with us, and I sure hope it works because the INTENT is brilliant.

Agree that being in the middle these days is the only place to be. We agree more than we disagree.

Did you read ZZMike's link way down in another thread on immigration? He has some information on Bush I that blew my mind. Not such a good guy after all. Anyway, long read but good.

[Phoenix]

"Whom to believe? Senior WB officials with long time records of achievement who have no reason to lie or Paul Wolfowitz who has every reason to lie????"

One last one...... We believe the one who plans on changing the corruption - not the guys fully engaged in it. Wolfowitz did not try to get around anything. You forget that this all took place two years ago. Wonder why it's just coming up? That should convince you who's right.

[nowingker]

As the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You do not make war based on good intentions. There was a HUGE amount of intelligence, reports and experts who all said the same thing. Bush's own father said the same thing in his book. Invading Iraq was a bad and dangerous idea, installing democracy would not be a 'cakewalk' like your pal Wolfie said and the chances of an insurgency were HIGH. All of what has happened was predicted before the invasion.

In doing anything you have to weigh the risk vs. the reward, the risks of Iraq going bad were too great and too likely to justify an invasion. Of course you've cleverly now changed the 'intent' of the war again to freedom and democracy when the stated intent was Weapons of Mass Destruction that didn't exist, nuclear centrifuges that didn't exist, mobile weapons labs that didn't exist and an imminent threat that didnt' exist. It would be great if every country in the world was free and democratic, are we going to take over the world now? Invading Iraq was a bad idea. Compounding the bad idea was an execution so incompetant that it boggles the mind that our military didn't resign en masse in protest of the pathetic lack of planning and foresight. Bush wanted to wipe away Vietnam, instead, he showed AGAIN, a second time that for whatever inexplicable reason, we can't effectively deal with these guerilla situations.

We're screwed on immigration. The Republicans want the cheap labor, all the businesses that depend on illegals, big agriculture, construction, tourist industry all want them in here, they don't want any Americans or legals whining about wages, health insurance and unions. The Democrats want them in here because they never found a sob story they didnt' like, they feel sorry for the poor illegals trying to better themselves, blah, blah, blah. We will be living in a hispanic majority country within a few decades. What that means, I can't say.

[nowingker]

It is just coming up because someone sent the Ethics Committe an email outlining the details of his girlfriends pay package, which they never knew before.

Also, you have it wrong on WHO is corrupt. It isn't the World Bank staff that is corrupt, that's not what Wolfie's mandate was. The problem was the World Bank looking the other way at coruption in the governments that they give money to. Not corrupt WB staff, but corrupt countries.

Yes, Wolfowitz did try to get around all kinds of rules that have to do wtih his own pay package, his girlfriends pay package and how grants are given and how and when loans are stoppped.

But I am not going to bother with any more articles that show you exactly what I am saying is true, you don't want' to believe it so you will simply find another excuse.

[charles]

the leftists are constantly living in the past, deathly afraid of change and hoping against hope that the words and actions of the mid east terrorists aren't what they say and do

it's all out in the open and part of the public domain of information, they choose to ignore and downgrade at every opportunity and at their own (and me, nyc resident) peril

it's much easier and less scary to dwell on the past and involve themselves in scandals and conspiracies - rather than deal with the present reality

irans mullahs are going full force in oppressing their citizens, brutally coming down on their women, and cracking down on any student or other uprising violently and immediately -along with the nuclear progress that no intelligence agency of any western govt had any idea of how far along they were

until we busted up the aq khan network

the fundamentalist "spring uprising" (which has been going on for centuries in afghanistan for example) is going to be carried out this season by more than just the usual actors

we stayed out of afghanistan after the russians left and the taliban went almost mainstream fundie

we left iraq with an armistice that saddam had absolutely no intention of honoring even before he agreed to it

in lebanon alone, last summer, hamas with the backing of iran and syria attempted a military coup by launching rockets against israel with three purposes

first was to derail the cedar revolution, second was to strengthen and reinforce the battle against the lebanese govt who were becoming too liberal and citizen oriented for the fundies, third was to be aggressive towards israel because that always works

they are dug in, bunkerized and fully? equipped

you might have thought it was over when the last battle ended, but it was only the opening round, and a test case of sorts - now they have lessons learned and corrections put in place

this summer is going to be a huge shitstorm in the middle east and i for one am glad we have a strategic military footprint in that part of the world

but as you see by the lefts example it's easier to blame bush, live in the past and blame and denigrate the most moral and honorable military force that ever existed, than deal with a probably very messy and unhappy short term future

i wish i was wrong but the momentum is too strong to deny

so go ahead and argue with me - try to prove me wrong, tell me i'm naive and uninformed and backing the wrong politicians

i.wish.i.was.

[nowingker]

Fear mongering at its best. Be afraid, very afraid, the muslims are coming to git you, only George the Lesser can save us from the muslim hordes.

Iran is an oppressive theocracy. Big whoop. There are oppressive governments abusing their own citizens on every continent. The administration that cried wolf is crying wolf again on Iran.

The Israelis started a full scale war, not Hezbollah. They were expecting to trade the soldiers for a few hundred of their captures guys as they had done many times before. The disolution of Lebanon and rise of Hezbollah is a direct result of the Israelie war. If one didn't know better, one might wonder if Israel's goal was the destruction of the emerging secular Lebanese state. Better your potential rival be stuck in civil war and poverty.

If we had finished the job in Afganistan there wouldn't be a problem with either poppy fields or the Taliban, instead we subverted military resources to invade Iraq and put Afganistan on the back burner. This is the result.

You are a broken record. War mongering and fear mongering with the same tired old lines you cons have been using since 9/11. All you've done is inflame the arab world against America, INCREASING support and tolerance for terrorism all across the ME.

Blah, blah, blah. As far as living in the past, people still write books about WWII, the Civil War, but hey, 2001 and 2003 are SO LIKE YESTERDAY...why dwell on the past. Another old adage is those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. We need to understand exactly what/where/when things went wrong in Iraq in order to ensure it never happens again.

LOL.

But yeah, thanks to George Bush and his neocon cabal, the ME is going to explode, no doubt about it. Too bad we've wasted our diplomatic and military resources and are so weak we can't prevent it.

[Fred Beloit]

Things haven't gone badly in Iraq as compared to WWII and Korea, yeswanker. Terrible mistakes were made there that cost, in just a few weeks, 10 or more times those killed in Iraq in a year. You seem to be completely ignorant of these conflicts. Perhaps that is why you have the mistaken FEELING that Iraq is going especially badly. But then you have a lot of mistaken feelings it seems to me.

[nowingker]

Really? Funny, I thought we won WWII in four years. Beat the Japs and the German war machine. But we can't beat the goatherders and their home made bombs?

I assume, but maybe not, that you understand that in a war where you have two armies, like in WWII, you are going to have more casualties than when you have one army of sitting ducks and an insurgency that picks them off a few at a time, like we have in Iraq. I also assume you realize that while only about 3000 soldiers have died that approximately 30,000 have been wounded.

But by all means, feel free to consider this a sign of victory to come.

[Fred Beloit]

Yes we beat them bpc (before political correctness). And the opposition party during both wars backed the Democrat administrations because it was the correct thing to do in wartime. Now the Dems know only criticism and obstruction from themselves and people like you. Congratulations. But Iraq isn't lost. The struggle goes on.

[nowingker]

Are you honest to god equating World War II and the German army with Iraq? OMG. Iraq was never a threat to the United States.

Germany declared war ON US you imbecile. We invaded Iraq. In the WWII analogy that makes us closer to the Germans invading Poland on false made up pretenses.

Iraq was lost in 2003, the fact that the little cry baby brat in the White House has dug in his heels and is making sure that the next president has to clean up his mess doesn't change that fact.

Equating Bush's folly with WWII is a huge disservice to the men and women who lost their lives, in a war where we were on the right side, actually fighting for democracy and freedom.

[charles]

"Fear mongering at its best."- just stating reality, you don't actually deny these things are happening but whatever, you ignore and attempt to downgrade as usual

"The Israelis started a full scale war, not Hezbollah". oh yes, israel launched rockets from civillian areas into civillian areas after kidnapping soldiers off lebanese territory so you're right (in some fantasy world)

"Iran is an oppressive theocracy. Big whoop The administration that cried wolf is crying wolf again on Iran."
- ignore and downgrade and blame bush, it's not the opinion of any other govt besides the us right?

"If we had finished the job in Afganistan there wouldn't be a problem with either poppy fields or the Taliban"

afghanistan has been a hellhole and poppies have been growing there even before the us as we know it existed - the taliban are fairly new - do you deny what they have attempted to accomplish is inhuman and wrong- i have problems with a totalitarian mindset that beats their women in the streets

"instead we subverted military resources to invade Iraq and put Afganistan on the back burner" oh really? i guess that's why we're still there fighting - becuase they're on the back burner eh?
i call b.s. on your strategic military knowledge

"You are a broken record. War mongering and fear mongering with the same tired old lines you cons have been using since 9/11. All you've done is inflame the arab world against America, INCREASING support and tolerance for terrorism all across the ME."

way before 9/11 you idiot, it's not my fault that your world history begins there, but there you go blaming the us and bush again

who's the broken record?

LOL.

"But yeah, thanks to George Bush and his neocon cabal, the ME is going to explode, no doubt about it. Too bad we've wasted our diplomatic and military resources and are so weak we can't prevent it."

and what's this? blame bush, blame america, ignore, deny and downgrade, oh my,aren't we repetitive

"military resources and are so weak we can't prevent it"
that needs to be repeated - for some reason or another our politicians have chosen to fight a "moral war"

between the b2s and the trident subs the entire middle east can be reduced to rubble in one afternoon - quit your complaining that this is taking longer than ww2 unless you intend to get behind some massive carpet bombing or maybe a nuclear holocaust

whether you can see it or not amongst other stategic interests we are trying to prevent a genocide

nothing i say here will pierce your inexperienced denying hide - and i don't care, it just needed to be said

just out of curiosity - what state do you live in?

[nowingker]

Maybe you can explain to me how 'carpet bombing' will 'liberate' Iraqis and bring 'democracy' to their country?

All you do is set up straw men and knock them down again.

We could probably kill 90% of Iraqi's within a week.

Genocide, historically, is a very effective tool in pacifying or colonizing a given area. So is imposing collective punishment, e.g. killing/raping family members or burning villages to the ground for not following the rules.

Israel could eliminate its Palestinian problem probably within a month.

However, at the current state of civilization, genocide is not considered an appropriate tool of war or colonization. Neither is imposing collective punishment or torturing suspects.

I'm not sure what 'genocide' you think we are preventing by invading Iraq and causing the deaths of tens of thousands of them?! Did your crystal ball tell you Saddam was going to destroy Baghdad and go on a 40,000 killing rampage? Didn't think so.

[charles]

"Maybe you can explain to me how 'carpet bombing' will 'liberate' Iraqis and bring 'democracy' to their country"

maybe you can explain to me where i said that

here's the quote to demonstrate how poor your perception is:

"between the b2s and the trident subs the entire middle east can be reduced to rubble in one afternoon - quit your complaining that this is taking longer than ww2 unless you intend to get behind some massive carpet bombing or maybe a nuclear holocaust"

"All you do is set up straw men and knock them down again." - project much?

"So is imposing collective punishment, e.g. killing/raping family members or burning villages to the ground for not following the rules."

when has the us ever done that? don't go mi lai, that was an anomally

"I'm not sure what 'genocide' you think we are preventing by invading Iraq and causing the deaths of tens of thousands of them?! Did your crystal ball tell you Saddam was going to destroy Baghdad and go on a 40,000 killing rampage? Didn't think so."

why do you keep boiling it down to saddam or bin laden? it's way more and much bigger than that

how do you explain thailand, pakistan,the horn of africa the phillipines kashmir and bangladesh?

not to mention the vile and oppressive saudis, i have no use for totalitarian govts that abuse,beat and oppress the mothers of their children

yes we are morally superior to them

and the happy iranian mullahs whos mouthpiece insists thaat they will push israel into the sea and use nukes against the us and their interests, who maybe haven't said it enough times to pierce your thick skull yet

you're living in the moment

IF they are successful in establishing another afghanistan where they can freely operate with little interference and pull off a large scale atrocity over here once more as they have stated their desire time and again even after two partially successful missions, i don't put much stock in the future of the middle easts further existance, which equates to me as genocide

"We could probably kill 90% of Iraqi's within a week."

exactly 20 minutes after the launch order to be precise

what state do you live in?

[nowingker]

Why do you want to know what state I live in? I find that kind of creepy. I live in the Northeast.

Al Quaeda wasn't in Iraq until we invaded. That means that our invasion of Iraq, which despite what you believe, HAS IN FACT taken resources away from Afganistan as stated by our own military people, has allowed them to do just that: regroup, rearm and restrategize.

I have zero doubt that Al Quaeda will attack us again. But I believe that ability is due in large part to Bush's focus on Iraq instead of Al Quaeda. If we were going to invade a country that wasn't a threat why the F. didn't we invade Pakistan so we could have actually taken into custody Al Quaeda's leadership?

Oh wait, I forgot, Pakinstan is our friend and Mushareff is a GREAT GUY, a real egalitarian. Women have it GREAT in Pakistan.

You've created a self fulfilling prophecy here: We have to win in Iraq so it isn't taken over by Al Quaeda except that potential only exists because we did invade, it was not there before and Hussein would never have permitted it.

But, whatever. The ME is going to burn now no matter what happens. We let the genie out of the bottle and there is no taking it back. Lebanon is gone. The Palestinians are gone, they will be living in squalor for another 50 years, no state no security, no future, terrorist breeding ground. Iraq is gone. All we are missing is an arab state invading Iran and the whole place goes up in smoke.

[jong]

Charles says:

"between the b2s and the trident subs the entire middle east can be reduced to rubble in one afternoon...."

Then
"whether you can see it or not amongst other stategic interests we are trying to prevent a genocide"

AI guess that means we'll kill 'em all if they don't let us save 'em.

That's certainly Bushtonian logic.

George Bush: Worst President Ever!

[charles]

"Why do you want to know what state I live in?" you never answer a direct question, not creepy just curious - you're not in nyc are you?

guess there's a first time for everything

"Al Quaeda wasn't in Iraq until we invaded" - highly debatable, but not interested in going there

"HAS IN FACT taken resources away from Afganistan as stated by our own military people, has allowed them to do just that: regroup, rearm and restrategize" -

depends which military people you're talking about, you seem to believe nato as ineffective as i do, and they regroup etc seasonally it's a well known tradition carried on for 100s of yrs - they come out of the mountains when the snow melts

"I have zero doubt that Al Quaeda will attack us again. But I believe that ability is due in large part to Bush's focus on Iraq instead of Al Quaeda" - google task force 145, stop the bds, al qaedas ability is due to bush? you're not serious

"Oh wait, I forgot, Pakinstan is our friend and Mushareff is a GREAT GUY, a real egalitarian. Women have it GREAT in Pakistan" - please stop the bullshit, in a word no

but, pakistan and the sauds have done more than ever before about terrorists in their own country since the us has taken an aggressive stance against them due to 9/11

and our ally india is keeping a weather eye on pakistan - or did we cause that conflict also?

parts of india have been battling islamists for 1400 yrs

"We have to win in Iraq so it isn't taken over by Al Quaeda except that potential only exists because we did invade, it was not there before and Hussein would never have permitted it."

i know where you get that idea and it's highly debatable

and to add, i said nothing of the sort - you better start quoting if you expect me to keep wasting time with you - i merely stated that saddam broke the armistice before he even signed it, that's enough reason for me and that's way before 9/11 fyi, like a decade - so the whole imminent threat wmd war for oil etc,bds, etc doesn't mean much to me, i was pissed at bush sr for pulling out because i knew where that would lead

"The ME is going to burn now no matter what happens. We let the genie out of the bottle and there is no taking it back. Lebanon is gone. The Palestinians are gone, they will be living in squalor for another 50 years, no state no security, no future, terrorist breeding ground. Iraq is gone. All we are missing is an arab state invading Iran and the whole place goes up in smoke."

there you go again blaming america first - we put down our arms and they go off, they put down their arms and there's a chance of reconciliation

but what about thailand, kashmir, bangladesh, phillipines or bali? is that our "genie" or the islamic fundies?

are you even aware what they are doing to the people of thailand? or india? in your world of bds and blaming america how did we cause that?

because it has the same stink as the situation in the middle east

jong - i very rarely if ever reply to any of your posts and there's a very good reason for that, now get back in your high chair before i have to come over there and give you a spanking

[jong]

In the immortal words of our president: BRING IT ON!

And I did quote you, word for word.

George Bush: Worst President Ever!

[charles]

oh did you?

this is a quote word for word

"between the b2s and the trident subs the entire middle east can be reduced to rubble in one afternoon - quit your complaining that this is taking longer than ww2 unless you intend to get behind some massive carpet bombing or maybe a nuclear holocaust

whether you can see it or not amongst other stategic interests we are trying to prevent a genocide"

a lie by omission is still a lie

liar

i have much better things to do, time to give the internet a rest, i like it less every day, i've been staying away from you leftards over here on purpose, think it's time to go back to that

grandpa told me you shouldn't waste time arguing with a moron

they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience

a wise man - time to take his advice

[Phoenix]

"You do not make war based on good intentions."

Do you make war based on bad intentions? I'll keep this short as most everything has been said, but from the beginning, I never figured WMD to be the deal. It was clear we need a base in the ME and Iraq is the perfect place. That's not American imperialism or a pursuit of oil - it's futuristic sight based on the knowledge of this new enemy we have. What good is a base in Germany or Hawaii for this new threat? We also owe our fine ally, Israel, our support. We can't do much if we're thousands of miles away. Iran is a serious problem and with us set up next door that problem diminishes. It's all hugely complex, but to bring it down to a simple state - we need to be there. The fact that it's taking so long to get set up is because our military adheres to a war-time morality on the battlefield. That ought to make you proud but for some reason your mind won't let you see that.

As for corruption at the WB: Since when is standing by watching corruption NOT corruption, itself?

[Phoenix]

Charles,

"they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience"

They don't bring you down..... you descend.

The nice thing about choice is that you can flick off the detritus when you ascend.

[Don Meaker]

Important to note: Worst Presidents, in order:

1. Buchanan: Result-680,000 deaths in Civil War
Kicker: Supported Dred Scott decision which asserted that a colored man has no rights that a white man, or the government need observe.
2. Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Result- 295,000 Deaths in WWII
Kicker1: Vice President Wallace was a Communist Agent.
Kicker2: Put US back into depression with his massive tax increases
Kicker3: New Deal programs paid southern land owners, but didn't pay a cent to their poor sharecroppers, black or white.
3. Woodrow Wilson: Result: 120,000 deaths in WWI
Kicker1: Re-segregated Federal Government
Kicker2: Prohibition jumpstarted organized crime
4. Lyndon Baynes Johnson: 58,000 deaths in Vietnam
Kicker: Destroyed Black Families with welfare rules that only paid if the Father was not at home.
5. Harry Truman: 38,000 deaths in Korean War
Mitigating: Desegregated Army

Jimmy Carter: Worst living former president.
Mitigating: Preaching about Human Rights was instrumental to fall of Soviet Union, a logical precursor to Reagan's "Evil Empire".

[jong]

Bush's Iraq was a war of choice, not necessity. No WMDs, no 9/11 connection, no nothing. He has no legacy other than failure. Iraq, Katrina, US Attorney's Scandal, destruction of personal privicy.

George Bush: Worst President Ever!

[nowingker]

but, pakistan and the sauds have done more than ever before about terrorists in their own country since the us has taken an aggressive stance against them due to 9/11

-----

Well, yeah, considering that the 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudis, that Bin Laden is from a rich and prominent Saudi family and that Pakistan is Al Quaeda's back yard, what else could they do? Pakistan throws us some bones every once in a while, sometimes a real terorist, sometimes an innocent guy, they don't care. From what I understand they're taking money from both sides, taking our money and taking payoffs from Al Quaeda as well. Nice.

--------

there you go again blaming america first - we put down our arms and they go off, they put down their arms and there's a chance of reconciliation

-----------

We upset the balance of power by invading Iraq. Certainly, on paper it looked like a great plan. Get rid of Saddam, everyone hates him anyway, install Chalabi to do our bidding. Rebuild the country using the oil revenue that would come from lifting of sanctions and western $$$ would pour into the country. Israel would destroy Hezbollah, getting rid of that problem once and for all. Then it was on to either invade Iran or force significant concessions. Sounds like a winner. Except it wasn't because it appears nobody factored in the Sunni/Shia dynamic and nobody considered the idea that a lot of Iraqis, especially Sunnis would consider our 'liberation' an invasion and start fighting against us, both because they hate America and because they would lose the status they had under Hussein.

I don't believe the issue of Al Quaeda in Iraq pre invasion IS debatable. Every intelligence assessment has said there is no evidence of an operational connection. You think its debatable because it is the only slim thread left to justify the stupid move to invade Iraq.

So, as Colin Powell said, we broke it, we own it.

-----------------------------

In the broadest sense the problem with wingers is you set up false analogies all the time. If one is against the Iraq war, against extraordinary renditions, against abuse and torture of suspects then one is for Islam, against the troops and wants to lose to the terrorists. This is a false dynamic. I am against all of those things and still can recognize that every Islamic state in the world with the possible exception of Turkey is extremely repressive, backwards, hostile to women's rights and human rights. The two are not mutually exclusive as wingers always claim.

Recognition that the solution in Iraq and Israel are political and not military is NOT weakeness or stupidity. Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism. Worrying about blanket targeting of muslims as terrorists is not the same as supporting terrorists.

All the major religions were founded hundreds or thousands of years ago. It should not be surprising that Judaism, Christianity and Islamic traditions all include reference and acceptance of violence and killling of non believers. Anyone who subscribes to a literal interpretation of words written down by archaic, mostly patriarchal cultures has ceded their rationality and isn't to be trusted. That goes for muslims, hassids and orthodox jews and evangelical 6000 year old earth christians.

This is why slamming Islam is so stupid, and again, you set up a false dynamic. If one says Islam is not a religion of hate and a billion people are not terrorists then it means in winger logic that one supports radical islam, the teaching of hate and jihads against the west.

The truth of the matter is we're fucked as a country. The machinery of government is broken, the Republicans can't fix it and the Democrats won't fix it. Both parties fall back on rhetoric and platitudes and quick fixes. Hillary Clinton now thinks that BILLIONS for PRE-K students will solve our educational problem? WTF? Four year old aren't joining gangs, robbing stores, doing drugs or getting pregnant???!!! But it sounds nice, everyone likes kids, so what could be bad. We won't prevail in Iraq for the same reason: government is broken and runs on slogans. The military was not allowed to run this war in a winnable way until possibly now, failures were not confronted, instead, slogans were adjusted. The military itself is another casuality of our country's malaise. Standards for everything have been lowered--it should be no surprise that since we're graduating college students who can't write a cogent memo, that the military is also full of dumbasses who lack all ability to think logically and connect a to b. This isn't a slam on the military because its ranks are made up of the rest of us, it's a slam on this country and our pathetic refusal to insist on excellence in anything.

We are in a death spiral and there is no getting out of it, terrorist attacks simply speed along the process and make it uglier, but the process of self destruction from the inside will continue with or without help from Al Quaeda.

[Phoenix]

Nowinger,

You make sense. But you do the generalizing thing even as you are generalizing, yourself. I wish you didn't have such vehemence about the way things are because it puts everyone on the defensive.

I still say we need a base in the ME. I've said it from the beginning and the fact is, we need a presence there. It was never about oil, and I think the WMD was built up to far more than it was in order to convince everyone to go along with a real necessity. Who would have agreed if Bush had said, "We're going to war in order to set up a military base in Iraq."

Anyway, despite your loathing of the neocons, I say they had/have it right. Not all wingers live by false analogies, so I'll just say I disagree with several of your points there.

As far as our country is concerned - scary stuff. I even read a bit of Pat Buchanan's treatise on how we're screwing our country to death because of dropping the ball on immigration. It pissed me off because he made such sense. There's no going back now......

And Wolfowitz was right. :)

[nowingker]

We wouldn't need a base in the ME if it wasn't for oil. We don't pay attention to genocide in Africa because most of the countries don't have any strategic resources and whatever strategic resources that do exist are owned by European companies. The ME is only strategic and important becuase that is where the oil is. If there was no oil in the ME nobody would care if the goatherders killed each other nonstop.

The neocons told themselves a pretty story, but it didn't match with the facts on the ground. As far as your idea of a long term military presence in Iraq, I doubt we will keep many troops there becuase it will become a flashpoint for terrorists. Once Iraq is turned over to the Iraqis then our presence is nothing more than an irritant and an incitement to violence.

As far as false parallels, I had an eye opening experience yesterday that leads me to believe illogical thinking is not just for wingers, its a problem of Americans being uneducated. I was treated to the beautific logic that Michael Vick engaging in dog fighting, if true was no big deal because (a) professional boxers fight for a living (b) there's a war going on and people are dying (c) we take our pets to obedience school. This is bizarro world. People grasping at straws to support whatever irrational belief they have, like dog fighting shouldn't be a crime, with whatever their puny minds can grasp onto. The problem is that we are raising our children to be STUPID. Unable to think for themselves, unable to be rational or logical. And while the wingers do take some blame for their desire to Christianize the schools, most of the blame for this lies with the liberals and the Democrats, who for decades have preached the way to success is through self esteem not hard work, homework, learning or consequences. And this is what we get, a country full of morons. Morons on the right, on the left, in the middle. Morons on every subject. We are doomed, really.

[Phoenix]

Nowinger -

No way. Oil has zilch to do with the location in Iraq. There are a pile of nuked-up countries around there and several would like to see Israel gone. We've already built a base there. I predict we'll have a semi-permanent base there much like we have in places all over the world. The 21st enemy is different, and for us not to be in a strategic position would be foolish. As for those European countries with assets in Africa... Guess what? The 'W' Man was working on that. He saw the corruption and was fighting it. Don't forget the Chinese. They've put a dibs big time on Nigeria's oil, the sixth largest field in the world, and part of the deal was that they 'help' the country's problems. They're not helping, but they are taking the oil. Read Kim du Toit's essay about his life in Africa.

There is no effort to Christianize public schools. It can't be done. But I watched for 20 years as all kinds of new, 'cool' ideas came down the pike for us to make learning better. The worst, by far, was the multicultural shebang. We had to get new textbooks - all of which come from California - and I can remember world literature and teaching some of those stories. We'd finish the story from some place no one ever heard of and stare at each other like... "What?" When I started teaching, I taught the early translation of Beowulf with all its beautiful alliterative language. When I left, Beowulf was down to five pages of baby talk. I quit over a PC incident, and I hear it's only gone downhill because no one is allowed to discipline.

I can say lots of bad things about public schools, but I will say more good things. It's a bitch of a job for anyone who cares about teaching. Those who criticize are correct for the most part but they forget that the amount of information today is exponentially more than even ten years ago. As well, schools have to specialize now so the classic liberal education is a thing of the past. Same with colleges. A couple of required courses ought to be how to manage money and how to think critically. And two years required civil service before you can get a job, go to college, etc....

[nowingker]

There are a pile of nuked-up countries around there and several would like to see Israel gone.

???What nuked up countries? No country in the ME has nukes EXCEPT Israel. YOu are drinking neocon koolaide again. I though the 21st century enemy was 'terrorists' you don't fight terrorists, plane hijackers or suicide bombers from a military base, you do it through INTELLIGENCE, special opps and small forces.... a thing we are still sorely lacking when it comes to the muslim world, still not enough arab speakers, still not willing to hire many native speakers. We are obviously not able to take over and control countries that we believe 'sponsor' terrorists. We haven't pacified Iraq, do you really think we can pacify Iran and/or Syria? Iran has 3X the population of Iraq and hasn't been weakened by a decade of sanctions. Even if we lose our minds and drop a few bombs on Iran, all that will do is get them to redouble their efforts. EVERYONE agrees that if Iran wants nucleur weapons they will eventually get them, its only a matter of slowing it down by a few years. If we bombed Iran, maybe we would take out their alleged nuke facilities, maybe not. What would the PR value be to the terrorist recruiters of dead Iranians, killed by American bombs?? It would be inestimable, and is not worth it. Iran even if they get nukes wouldn't use them on Israel despite the propaganda. They want nukes because Israel has them and Israel has said they would use them if need be. You WANT to believe that a US base in Iraq will help make the country safe but it won't. It doesn't make any sense, how will soldiers in Iraq keep us safe? They wont'. They might help Israel, but despite what you've been brainswashed into believing the interests of Israel and the interests of the United States are not one in the same. Israel is more than capable militarily of defending itself against any of the arab states thanks to us and our money and arms.

The efforts to teach 'intelligent design' is most definitely an effort to Christianize the schools, as is abstinance only education that teaches children the only correct venue for sex is within marriage. The anti science bent of the Christian right is very, very bad for this country. What kind of future are we going to have if we raise a generation of children who don't believe in science? Wingers hate science, always have. That's why they hate the idea of science showing that global warming is man made, why they stamp their little feet and screech about Al Gore and mudd huts. Hell, kids today can't even read a train schedule, we don't need to be teaching them that 'maybe' the earth is only 6000 years old and that 'maybe' satan put the dinosaur bones and fossils in the earth to fool us, that 'maybe' natural selection and evolution aren't true and don't exist. Give me a break.

I am at a loss to understand what has happened to our education system. I went to a public school with a college prep curriculum, it served me well. Classes were grouped according to ability. Perhaps my less smart schoolmates didn't get the same education as I did, don't know. Why do schools have to specialize? Says who? What's wrong with a classic liberal arts education, it teaches people how to think and it enables them to understand the thinking and philosophies behind our society. Sounds good to me. The whole movement against Dead White Men Studies is stupid. Whether we like it or not, western society and culture was founded by these dead white men. Giving the same weight to African tribal studies as to the works of Aristotle is pure nonsense. Sure, throw in some multi cultural, religious stuides for balance, but things have gotten so crazy in this regard. Colleges are little better than public schools at this point, grade inflation, politcally correct majors and more concerns with quotes than with excellence. If there is grade inflation at Harvard, again, we're doomed. The bar is getting lower and lower so that in a few more generations even 'the best' will not be very good. We have come to believe that society will ALWAYS be in a forward path, better, smarter, safer, but history shows that isn't true. We went from the Roman Empire to the Dark Ages and stayed there for 1000 years, who says it can't happen again? I do agree with you that some kind of civil service requirement would be good, I'd go for one year not two, but it will never happen.

It's also beyond me why anyone trusts the Chinese or why we have ceded our manufacturing capability and our T-bills to the Chinese. Greed, nothing else. Greed and short term thinking only and that my friend, is a Republican trait.

[okie]

The primary reason Carter will go down as the WORST!...not having the FDA revoke "BILLY BEER"...everything else pales in comparison.

[Phoenix]

Too tired to argue Iraq points at this discouraging stage, but without a whole lot of detail and no 'required' support for why,... what would you suggest we do about this worldwide jihad.

Forgot about the I.D. and abstinence and no-science. I don't think in terms of that being a 'Christianizing' effort. I just see it as poison.

Public education still puts kids in appropriate levels. They still have all the required credits, but many schools offer alternative education for kids not on the college-bound tract. I know we went through a few years where teaching descriptive grammar was out. Stupid stupid.... I did it anyway. Colleges have to specialize because there's no way kids can get a true liberal education plus everything they need for their major and their minor. Plus, they spend time teaching kids the stuff they didn't learn in high school. It's a vicious downward spiral as employers end up griping that they have to teach college graduates everything.

Linked to a blog run by a professor who had a post up making fun of 'stupid' high school teachers. I commented that stupid high school teachers had to take a 501 EDU class every year and that we 'stupid' teachers thought the professors who taught those classes were complete, out-of-touch morons. ha ha. I can remember three classes from UVA professors where we mutinied and quit the classes.

I don't fear ever going through another Dark Ages. Way too many smart people around these days to allow that to happen. There is SO much information out there coming at us that we're like The Red Queen trying to keep up.

[nowingker]

Phoenix, do you think if you asked any Romans in 200 AD if it was possible that their society would forget how to build arches, adqueducts, domes or make cement they would have believed it possible? Yet it happened. It can happen now too, though it would take a calamitous war or environmental disaster to kick it into the final decline.

The way to minimize radical islam is two fold:

Seek out the actual terrorists, apprehend them, give them due process, try them in a fair court before the world, proving that America stands by our values and don't need to stoop to their level.

Remove their top recruiting tools by forcing a fair resolution to the Israel/Palestinian issue, depriving the terrorists of their number 1 message that America is tool of the Jews and hostile to the arab world. Wingers hate this as an answer even though its been said by experts all across the spectrum that the Palestinian issue is a rallying cry that all arabs and muslims respond to. It also seems to defy logic that anyone believes keeping several million Palestinians living in poverty and squalor is ever going to make their country secure. Start winning the PR war in the muslim world by embracing leaders and clerics who are moderate instead of only criticizing the jadists. The muslim world doesn't believe the war on terror is about terrorists, they think its about Islam and Israel. Until we begin to change this viewpoint through our ACTIONS we're not going to get anywhere.

[charles]

" if you asked any Romans in 200 AD if it was possible that their society would forget how to build arches, adqueducts, domes or make cement they would have believed it possible?"

they forgot?

you sure about that?

[nowingker]

Yup. Are you going to tell me that these abilities were not lost after the fall of Rome and rediscovered 1000 years later in the Renaissance?

[seekeronos]

I wouldn't say that they were lost... the Eastern Roman Empire made use of Western Roman building techniques for some centuries after the fall of the West, and there was perhaps at most a generation, maybe two, between the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire (by then, called the Byzantine Empire) when Constantinople was sacked by Caliph Mehmet II in the mid-15th Century.

The Rennaissance on the other hand, sprang forth out of Italy (particularly in the domains held by the Medicis) in the late 1300s/early 1400s. They of all people, would be likely to have retained some level of knowledge of Roman engineering, even if it meant backporting from the Byzantine Empire. Undoubtedly, those who retreated from the encroaching armies of Turks and other Muslim armies would have brought with them practical engineering know-how.

[Phoenix]

Amazing. I've just watched an hour of documentary by Think TV out of Britain - all about anti-Semitism and the Arabs. It was well done and offered no discernable bias at all. I think the issue is too complex, but Nowinger, you are right that if the Israeli/Palestinian issue were resolved it would be the surcease of a whole lot of trouble. The more educated Palestinians get it - the uneducated are so brainwashed it's pitiful. Lots of hatred towards America for its support of Israel - yes to those points. But the rest of what you describe seems out of reach now. You are basing the solution on reason, and radical Islamists do not reason as we do.

Also had a discussion on another blog about the Dark Ages and whether or not progress stopped or was lost. Progress is never lost because you can't erase knowledge, and progress is history's continuum. But it can be halted and superceded by other factors. It's obvious nothing was lost during the Dark Ages because the Roman technology and rule of law lived on. We base our foundation on it. It took religion to take down the Roman Empire. That cannot happen today because we know too much. That's what I meant about the amount of knowledge out there. That's not going to stop and people are not about to stop 'living' because some priests say you're going to hell if you don't do this and that. Too bad about the radical Muslims' source of knowledge. Religion rears its ugly head again.

[Phoenix]

Your point about embracing moderate clerics and the whole of moderate Islam is right-on. We are doing that behind the scenes, but that kind of diplomacy takes a long time. We have to do the 'action' thing to stop those who actively seek to kill us while we do the work behind the scenes. So, yes - reason does work with moderates. Too bad we don't see a lot of it working. It would sure give us a much needed boost.

[nowingker]

Radical islam is tough to fight, like all cults and hard line religious movements it gives the believer ALL the answers. He's got an enemy [US/Israel], God is on his side, so whatever evil [bombing delis/blowing up office buildings] he does is excused because the end justifies the means. It explains the poverty, oppression and hardships [America/Israel keeping the Muslims down], you can think of yourself as a devout and good person while committing the most unthinkable atrocities. It has been this way throughout time. This is what the Nazis did. This is what the Christians did.

Now, while it is somewhat understandible how that ideology can take root in the ME, what it appears nobody is or has figured out is WHY in the HELL this ideology is taking root among muslims in the West. New studies show that the younger muslims here and in the UK are MORE tolerant of terror and more to the right of their parents, who emigrated to the West to get away from the same oppression their stupid kids now embrace. Why is this? Lack of jobs? Prejudice? Seems like it would have to be something more than that, since the muslims are one of the only immigrant groups that appear to reject and turn against the host countries.

This is what we have to solve, this is a lot more pressing than playing cowboy in Iraq. These guys are ALREADY over here. We have to find out why they are turning toward radical islam and fix it. Roughing them up, treating them all like terrorists isn't the answer, that only cements their hate and makes them MORE likely to embrace terror.

[Phoenix]

There's also another side to that that may work. Stop the insurgency of radicalism over there and the young generation here and in Britain and the EU may see how futile it is to turn. Part of the videos I watched was a long section on just what you mentioned. The filming was in Dearborn and some place in Illinois. They gave no answers to the problem or reasons why the young are turning other than to show a few Imams who were teaching hate. That was at UCLA, I think. One community objected to Muslims wanting to buy a church that had been empty for a long time and was on the market. The Muslims wanted to turn it into a mosque and the community of Christians went nuts. So... they fought and the judge ordered both sides to meet and greet for a year and then come back to court. There were interviews of the two groups together after about six months of sharing their version of how God wants things to be, and they'd all calmed down and gained a lot of acceptance. ........ Now for a worldwide meet & greet. Bring a casserole.