Fort Dix Terrorism Government's Fault?

As anticipated, that didn't take long at all. That's an AP byline and some definitive statements of alleged facts not yet heard by a jury. But what'd you expect?

CHERRY HILL, N.J. (AP) - He railed against the United States, helped scout out military installations for attack, offered to introduce his comrades to an arms dealer, and gave them a list of weapons he could procure, including machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades.
These were not the actions of a terrorist, but of a paid FBI informant who helped bring down an alleged plot by six Muslim men to massacre U.S. soldiers at New Jersey's Fort Dix.

And those actions have raised questions of whether the government crossed the line and pushed the six men down a path they would not have otherwise followed.

It is an argument—entrapment—that has been made in other terrorism cases, and one that has failed miserably in this post-Sept. 11 era.

One defense attorney on the case, Troy Archie, said no decision has been made on whether to argue entrapment, but based on the FBI's own account, "the guys sort of led them on."

Comments

[Zifnab]

It's an interesting question. Can the US Government convict you of terrorism if it does all the work for you? It's not like this administration hasn't manipulated intelligence before. Wouldn't this be the perfect way to "catch a terrorist"? It's the evolution of the old "planting weed in the guy's back pocket" trick.

[Dan Riehl]

Yeah, ZiffyLube - that would be the compact, folding model machine gun, right? You maroon.

[ec1009]

"That's an AP byline and some definitive statements of alleged facts not yet heard by a jury. But what'd you expect?"

Everything said by the government about this case and these defendants is "alleged facts not yet heard by a jury."

The press released alleged statements by the defendants set off my B.S. detector.

Anyone want to bet that charges are quietly dropped 18 months from now?

[Zifnab]

"Yeah, ZiffyLube - that would be the compact, folding model machine gun, right? You maroon."

That, or the briefcase nuke. Who's to say the alleged smoking gun isn't an alleged mushroom cloud?

[Leatherneck]

That's a negative there thing! I want them shot at dawn with the six flying Imams. Throw in CAIR, and the ACLU at the same time.

Are you offended I can not stand moon god worshipping POS, and those who speak for them? Well, I will be sure to go for more compassion training, just to make you lefturd panty wearing pussies happy.

BZO, or die.

[Buzzy]

Reminds me of exactly how the left got us into this mess in the first place. HumInt can't be obtained by girl scouts and nuns and you can't get someone inside with the terrorists unless he "rails" against the US and has something to offer but still the left has for years insisted that their informants be exactly the kind of people that criminals and terrorists won't talk to or be around. As of 9/11 we had nearly zero HumInt on radical Islam here or abroad due to these failed policies of the left and Human Intelligence is exactly the thing that we must have to prevent another attack on our country.

Nobody, including AP, has any idea of exactly what the informant did or did not do in this case or what the timeline of his actions were and that is exactly what you must know to determine if entrapment took place.

But since Ziffy and the rest of the al Qaeda for lunch bunch have already decided the "terrorists" are innocent on the basis that they hate the US I'll put my spin on things.

If someone came to me and spewed anti US stuff while offering me bombs and guns to kill a bunch of US soldiers in cold blood they wouldn't get past the first breath before he found himself spewing teeth and blood face down on the floor waiting for the cops to arrive. I can also assure you that the same would happen if that someone tried to enlist me in attacking people in a mosque, supermarket, school, or anywhere else. Nobody could "talk" me into it and I would hope that they couldn't talk anyone else here into it either. Doesn't the fact that IF someone easily talked these guys into planning a terrorist attack actually prove they were terrorists in the first place.

Ziffy, are you so weak willed that if I said bad things about the US you'd plan some terrorism?

[BARRASSO]

Offer all terrorists a free speedboat, then take them into the next room to arrest, the perfect plan.

[K]

Entrapment is a very technical defense. And even more as a group defense.

'yes, all of us were lured to work together on crimes we would otherwise never do'.

[Lala]

Stopping HumInt makes me think of Bianca Jagger and Robert Torricelli.

[ec1009]

Hey leatherneck! Go back to Russia. I hear Putin is creating a system of government more to your liking.

The U.S. Attorney Cristopher J. Cristie, who is in charge of the investigation, is the same U.S. Atty that announced an investigation against Menendez in a close senate race right before the election. Shortly after the election they turned up nada.

Governments lie for political reasons. The only thing this president knows how to do competently is lie.

[imaginewhirledpeas]

Entrapment, very real possibility........Remember how the ATF sold Randy Weaver a shotgun a hacksaw blade width too short. Then killed his kid in a "shootout" just before shotting his wife in the face.

[imaginewhirledpeas]

ec: What has the president lied about?

[charles]

"right before the election. Shortly after the election they turned up nada"

right before, and shortly after eh? and what's this? - look how quickly we discover who is in charge of the investigation

oh my, the political games people play

i smell leftist lawyers manufacturing talking points,to be distributed amongst the moonbats smells like,,,,,,,,,,a whole pile of horseshit

i'm curious which site you dragged that in from

[templar knight]

A liberal calling someone a liar. And a competant liar, at that, which is a backhand compliment, I suppose. There is nothing a liberal admires more than a competant liar, something to do with professional courtesy. Think lawyer. I rest my case.

[ec1009]

What has the president not lied about, imagineworldpeas?

Use google charlie. Its a wonderful thing. try Wikipedia.

Templar Knight, take a xanax.

[charles]

The U.S. Attorney Cristopher J. Cristie

should bush have fired him?

[BARRASSO]

If you don't think the president has lied after six years in office, you are a credulous moron. Not just this president but any president. The level of partisan idiocy involved in such a statement is sad.

[supernintendo chalmers]

Think lawyer. I rest my case.
Posted by: templar knight | Thursday, May 10, 2007 at 07:13 PM

case dismissed, you did not prove your prima facia case

[Leatherneck]

Go back to Russia? I just love Russian women. They are so 007 beautiful, I'm getting a hard-on just thinking about them.

NOW STAND AT ATTENTION, AND PUT YOU FEET TOGETHER WHEN YOUM TALK TO ME MAGGOT! Are you eye fu#king me ec1009? Do you want to take me out? IS THAT IT BOY!

[bloodrage bob]

careful, gyrene. remember what happened to the good sgt. in 'FMJ' when he ....uh..... "encouraged" the liberal fellow a tad too vigorously.

[Leatherneck]

Pvt. Pile, is that a jelly doughnut?

[templar knight]

Take a xanax? What for, dufus? For telling the truth. Oh, I forgot, that's something you know little if anything about.

And lawyers never lie, huh? Typical liberal, dismiss the truth.

[charles]

well you know my first reaction to a story like this is to question the timing see what they might be covering up for and immediately try to figure out how the govt is lying to us

the very next thing i do is research who the prosecuting attorney is so i can find out what i might be able to smear him with, or at least create the essence of a scandal because there's no way these mostly illegal jihadi immigrants could possibly have attempted to pull it off

after all a rational person couldn't think any differently could they?

the govt just made it all up because they love to have trials and lock people up and stuff like that

[Buzzy]

If your immediate thought upon hearing that people have been arrested for planning a terrorist attack is to assume the government is in the wrong then you're the person with problems. This goes not only for the left during the Bush administration but also for the right during various Democratic administrations.

Yeah, I remember the numb nuts screaming the Clinton administration had set up the Murrah Building bombing in OKC. And even though the Janet Reno FBI did screw up horribly in turning military tanks loose on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, they didn't burn the place to the ground. Clinton didn't set off bombs at our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 either or mastermind the suicide bombing of the USS Cole. IMHO while the Clinton administration had problems on top of problems and as a conservative I seldom found myself in agreement with his policies and his truthfulness he did not conspire to kill American citizens to promote his agenda. Bush isn't either.

The worst enemy the US has are the idiots that tell us to ignore the terrorists because the real enemy is the US government! This isn't a Democrat vs Republican issue and I promise the problem won't go away should Hillary or Obama become President in 2008.

[Hard Right]

Ziftard, have you not seen the quote where one of the guys says he doesn't care if the guy is FBI, because he's committed and doing it for Allah? That's entrapment? Only to a libtard.

[Fred Beloit]

Geez, I met this guy in a bar yesterday evening while I was eating a couple of olives. He sez to me, "Look. This is a list of illegal weapons I could get for you." Naturally, I ordered some. Who could resist owning a 50 cal MG and a few frag grenades, ya know, especially since, like Zif and the Boob, this guy was railing against the US. I mean anyone would go for a deal like this, right?

[Mike]

"Attorney Rocco Cipparone, who is representing defendant Mohamad Ibrahim Shnewer, whom he described as a "hardworking cab driver,' said he'll look into 'the role of paid informants and how aggressive they were in potentially prodding or moving things along.'"

But he will probably have to wait until after the final episode of "The Sopranos."

Somebody should be looking into connections between the Mafia and these terrorists.

[Hard Right]

Ummm yeah, the informant, who wasn't even involved at that point, forced them to make the propaganda video where they declared their intent to particpate in Jihad. (roll eyes)

According to the NYT the informant posed as a military trained egyptian. Allegedly he was chosen to lead the assault. So in the mind of a leftard that = entrapment.

[Lokki]

The oddest thing is - Why is the AP proffering any potential defense for the accused at all?

If you look at the article above again, you'll see that the Attorney did not propose this idea - nope he never mentioned it until the AP asked him if he was going to consider it.

In fact, when the AP reporter suggested it, the attorney wasn't too keen on it.

This isn't reporting - it's activism and editorializing.....

Sad, sad.

[ec1009]

Remember the muslim army chaplain charged with treason, he pled guilty to possession of pornography and adultery.
Remember the muslim lawyer accused of being involved in the Madrid bombing, completely exonerated.
Just saying, keep an open mind.
Whats up with conservative blind faith in authority?

[Lokki]

The issue of this post isn't whether they're guilty or not- it's the AP suggesting entrapment as a defense BEFORE all the facts are in evidence.

As for the Muslim chaplin found not guilty - how about the six in Britian just found guilty there?

Have you forgotten 9-11, the London bombings, Spain, Bali, the attempt to bring explosives as liquids aboard airliners, Richard Reid?

You can't just say that the government is making things up and there is no threat. There is a real threat. You're going to have to deal with that idea.

[ec1009]

Lokki,
You have already convicted them before the evidence is in so I don't understand your problem with a reporter asking a simple question.

As to your last point: The two aren't mutually exclusive. The fact that the government sometimes lies does not mean there is no threat.

[Lokki]

OK, flamebait.... where I have convicted them in my statements above?

Spell it out... small words, don't strain yourself.

[Mwalimu Daudi]

Why would anyone be surprised that al-AP floated this trail balloon? I suspect that the MSM and the rest of the Kool-Aid Krowd's argument that 9/11 was carried out by a dastardly conspiracy of (pick one or more of the following) the Bush administration, the Israelis, Halliburton, and FOX News is getting stale.

Thus, the new spin - entrapment.

Coming soon from the MSM and the rest of the Kool-Aid Krowd: al Qaeda was "enticed" by (pick one or more of the following) the Bush administration, the Israelis, Halliburton, and FOX News into attacking the WTC.

"Your mothers's a flamebait" - wow, what an unanswerable and crushing argument. It positively drips with superior intellect thought wave-type thingys. Real Einstein material, it is!

[ec1009]

Riiiight,
the MSM and their non-stop promotion of 9-11 conspiracy theories. What planet do you live on.

The flamebait thingy was a joke. I keep forgetting that wingnuts don't have a sense of humor.

wingnut: short for right wing nut case.
What is flamebait supposed to mean?
What is a "moonbat"? Two random words thrown together? Why not planetmouse or maybe sunclub.

I notice nobody ever rebuts the substance of my arguments. All I get is strawmen, red herrings and name calling.

[Dan Riehl]

T'would be best if we stayed away from criticizing another's Mother ... and their camels, as well. Particularly as when addressing liberals we may be criticizing the very same thing.

Lighten up, folks, keep it general. When it gets one on one, it always gets nasty, Left and Right.

Have fun.

[Fred Beloit]

OK, you sunclub planetmouse, if you want to name your own poison I'll play with those rules. Look, planetmouse, this situation is an accusation of a contemplated war crime. As such, the illegals in this group should be on their way to Gitmo? No, sunclub, they should already be there together with their free edition of the tax-payer-purchased Quran. Next step, interrogation, next step, Army or Marine tribunal. These guys are not accused of heisting a liquor store.