You Can't Defend The Indefensible

BLACKSBURG, Va., April 19 — Officials at Virginia Tech on Thursday defended their decision to allow the gunman in Monday’s rampage to return to campus after he was released from a psychiatric facility, even though they were aware of his troubled mental history and potential for violence.

They do? Where? Because I don't see it.

Christopher Flynn, director of the campus counseling service, said the university had played no role in monitoring Mr. Cho’s psychiatric treatment. “The university is not part of the mental health system nor the judiciary system, and we would not be the providers of mandatory counseling in this instance,” Mr. Flynn said at a news conference. “This is not a law enforcement issue. He had broken no law that we know of. The mental health professionals were there to assess his safety, not particularly the safety of others.”

Since when is, it's not our job considered a defense when you take someone's money and agree to house them along with other students, none of whom know with what they are actually dealing?

In defending their actions, university officials pointed out that Mr. Cho was legally an adult and that a doctor at the psychiatric center in nearby Radford where Mr. Cho was sent in 2005 determined that he was mentally ill but not an imminent danger to himself or others.

“I know that we followed all of our policies correctly in the past and we acted on information that we had at the time,” said Edward Spencer, associate vice president for student affairs.

He added that Mr. Cho had lived in a suite with five other students, and that “none of them expressed any concern to us of any violence, danger or whatever. I think that gives you a view of the inner world of mental illness.”

Hardly. But it gives us a view of the inner world of academia unwilling or unable to take responsibility for the students which it houses. How do you think his suite-mates might have reacted to his anti-socialism had they known of his psychiatric history? It seems quite a stretch to suggest that each one of them is somehow supposed to be as well qualified as a psychiatrist to evaluate a strange roommate's mental condition.

I'm far from convinced the school can be held accountable for what eventually occurred. But somehow they must have an obligation to not plunk down five strangers into a few rooms when one of them is so obviously mentally unstable. Is that too much to ask?

Is it too much to ask that, given his history, he wasn't somehow mandated to see a counselor while in residence at the school? It occurs to me that that very thing may well have averted this tragedy. The administration most certainly had information unavailable to the average student. It did nothing on an on going basis with that information and now 31 innocent students are dead.

Saying it wasn't your job is not enough. Perhaps it's time academia revisits just what its job is for the high rates of tuition they now charge. Removing, or at least monitoring mentally unstable individuals roaming about your halls does not seem like too much to ask. This individual raised more than enough red flags during his time at Virginia Tech. That those flags were eventually left unattended to and all but forgotten is no excuse.

Comments

[Pamela]

Dan

I have to say I agree with you on this. My daughter will start college in the fall. I think a lot more parents will be asking colleges and universities what they are doing to keep their kids safe.

[bloodrage bob]

i dunno, bud....seems like you're coming awfully close to demanding that the school; or the docs; or the cops; or whoever has to start *reading minds* in order maintain order.

that's an awful tall order for ANYone, much less halfwit educational bureaucrats. and then giving them the power to expel/commit those they deem 'nuts!'...giving *hardcore* *liberal* educators* *already* *notorious* *for* *harassing* *those* *they* *deem* "unliberal".....already famous for stifling dissent; shouting down arguments; flunking those who dare disagree with the sacred party-approved political dogma.....

do ya THINK they MIGHT just abuse that power? like about every 10 seconds?

aside from the fact that whole "giving liberals the power of exclusion is always a bad idea because they'll abuse that power right away, being liberals" thing, 4 other quick points:

1) in order to pass muster with the educators, students will have to demonstrate the "proper spirit and attitude" in order to be deemed officially sane. is that what we want? sanity as measured by how eagerly they sing the school song?
2) think a crazy guy determined not to be thrown out MIGHT figure out a way to fool the watchers?
3) and the grouchy, antisocial, entirely non-sociopathic guys denied their chance at higher education due to someone's entirely unfounded "suspicions"? "hunches"? any due process for them? we're finding out the prisons are FULL of innocent guys these days, no? and they were railroaded after a TRIAL and all that. how many 'mistakes' will be made when a trial isn't necessary?
4) and when the suspected loon turns out to be someone's pet minority? do we REALLY think liberal educators will eject a black guy or a gay arab based on a *hunch*? risk the disapproval of the commissars? risk a civil-rights lawsuit?

[Cindi]

Not sure what the answer is. I do know this, I have two kids in college right now. This past week has been hell. I dont mean for me, but for the young adults in college, or facing college.

I have spend the last 13 years raising my children, who are now adults. I can offer them nothing in a case like this. With the exception........don't go down as a coward. If the mother fucker is going to shoot you, they will shoot you. Do whatever you can to stop it, even if your life is on the line.

[Cindi]

oops.....spent

[Cindi]

I think a lot more parents will be asking colleges and universities what they are doing to keep their kids safe.

Posted by: Pamela | Friday, April 20, 2007 at 02:20 AM

Your real questions should be, what are your children willing to do to protect their selves, and those around them.

[Cindi]

College kids are hardly kids. If we have not provided and prepared them for life, shame on us are parents. And yes, sick mother fuckers like this son of a bitch are real. I would hope any child I raised would be able to stand up, regardless of their own life, to defend that of another.

[BobInStamford]

It saddens me greatly to learn that cindi has offspring.

[imaginewhirledpeas]

Cindi aren't you the same Cindi who was sure something should've been done to corral ben fawley before he committed murder? I agree w/ BRB on this in that there is an opportunity for abuse. However, this cho person was scary enough that one teacher wanted him removed from her class, at least two girls complained of him stalking them AND he had been committed. He shoulda been expelled and sent home, period.

[southdakotaboy]

The second this nut job was committed to an overnight stay in the loony bin his name should have been put on the background list to deny him a gun. The gun shop owner should have been able to know this but it wasn't on the list so he sold him the gun. Privacy rights do nut trump the need for public safty.
On a more positive note the Tenn. Legislature has passed a bill that would allow people to carry conceled weapons into any public building at any time. Maybe America is learning the lesson that it is the criminals who kill not law abiding citizens.

[GRG]

That was a thoughtful post on the responsibility colleges owe to students.

1. Cho was likely not committed but was put on a 48 hour hold. The judicial proceeding then determines if he should be an involuntary patient due to: a.) immediate danger to self or others; b) due to psychiatric disorder. Apparently the case was not made, and thus he was released and then was eligible for gun ownership.

2. I would have to agree that colleges need to do more than what Va Tech did. They accept the students, and sponsor the rather unusual living conditions. It is not cheap. Thus colleges need more than the weak counseling systems in place. It was dangerous for a college to allow a disturbed student like Cho to live in university owned housing.

One may say it is more clear thru retrospection, which is true. However, VT authorities had more than enough concern about this guy. Can you imagine a student so intimidated a teacher she would resign rather than teach him.

You will see Va Tech in cover-up mode at this point. There are many potential lawsuits in the air...

If this case doesn't give you great pause in liberalizing gun ownership laws, then please move to Columbia :-)

[templar knight]

Yeah, me too, BobthehairyguyinStamford, she is actually teaching them to resist violence, rather than not resist and have happen to them what happened to Charron Christian. Yes, that is indeed sad. Now, if she will only have them attend Concealed Carry Classes and become licensed gun carriers, she will more than sadden you. She will SCARE you.

[Hard Right]

The loophole in the gun buy was that his psych info was not reported. Had it been, he would not have been able to buy those guns. In fact, he lied on the applications and broke the law. The laws are fine, we don't need more.

I also agree the college should have dealt with him...period.

[Hard Right]

BTW GRG, considering what you know about guns, your opinion doesn't carry much weight. Liberalized gun laws save lives.

[Kelvin]

If Terry Schiavo had a gun, she would be alive today.

[Zifnab]

"Your real questions should be, what are your children willing to do to protect their selves, and those around them."

A grenade in every backpack and a bazooka in every classroom. For the safety of our children. We should also mandate that every one of our college-bound children learn the ancient and venerable art of Chuck Norris Kung-Fu. If Chuck Norris has taught me anything, its that a martial arts expert can take, like, twelve bullets to the chest and still have the John Wayne courage to round-house kick a guy in the balls.

Honestly, I don't see a "failing" on the part of the school in letting Chou attend. Van Gogh sliced off his own ear and still went on to be a master painter. Einstien dated his cousin and didn't wear socks, but revolutionized physics. Hitler got kicked out of art school and went on to slaughter large parts of Europe. Tossing this guy out of college wouldn't have kept anyone "safer", it would just have resulted in him slaughtering a bunch of people off-campus rather than on-campus.

I do see a major failing on the school's lag time to respond to the initial crisis. When two people are shot with the killer still at large, I don't understand how the entire campus can't be notified ASAP. They had two hours to get the word out and they failed miserably. This is bad policing, plain and simple.

[Cindi]

My guess is yes, although I do not remember the specifics. My point,due to existing privacy laws, we cannot depend on an institution for total safety. That doesn't mean laws shouldn't be changed. Hell under existing law, a teacher cannot even be told of a child's medical conditions, let alone mental health issues, unless a parent shares that information directly.

Even at that, it remains our responsibility of teaching our kids to fight for their lives if needed.

"Now, if she will only have them attend Concealed Carry Classes and become licensed gun carriers"

Giving that some thought.

Zif, you are right. The school failed in notification. When they have the ability to contact students of closing due to weather, why not of murder.

[seekeronos]

The lack of communication and length of time to respond is certainly regrettable, and should be evaluated with a view to sacking those responsible for those gaps which, if closed, may have saved numerous lives.

However, it is just as much, if not more so, a failing of laws surrounding the Privacy Act and HIPAA based regulations on the release of medically sensitive information related to hospitalization of persons for mental/sociopathic disorders to the maintainers of the NCIS database, or a related database that would have flagged folks like Cho when he tried to buy his guns.

Yet, if all the students and teachers were properly trained in the use of firearms, and were able to concealed openly... I think people like Cho would have to think twice, because folks like him would be dropped like a foamingly mad dog in a classroom full of trained gun-owning, gun-carrying students and teachers.

[nowinger]

He would have just gone back to his high school then. Can't you guys come up with ANY solution to ANY problem that doesn't involve upping the violence quotient and invading someone's civil rights. Are you doing to deny a gun permit to everyone that has ever seen a psychiatrist? Are you going to give the government access to everyone's mental health records? My guess is, genius, all that would do is reduce the number of non psychotic killers who seek mental health care. The idea of giving college students permits to carry doesn't even deserve comment beyond it would very likely increase the number of fridy and sat. night gun related deaths on college campuses to a point where 32 dead would be a drop in the bucket.

[southdakotaboy]

Nonwinger issue guns to teachers guns in a controled manner. Teachers in most states have to go through background checks anyway so just add the psyc check to it. Give them intensive training and extra pay if they are willing to do it. Keep the guns in key coded safes in thier rooms. The gun could even be unloaded but with a full magazine at the ready.
The reason that the death toll was so high was that the shooter was able to go from room to room at will and at his own pace. This guy took his time if he was in a hostile environment he either would have been killed or at least been unable to move at will. While this might hace caused a hostage type situation it most likely would have saved lives.

[Dan Riehl]

upping the violence quotient and invading someone's civil rights"

The perp in this case didn't seem to have a probelm with violence. And the people he murdered have no more civil rights. You're welcome to your "perfect" world.

[crazy]

The VT shooter slipped through the cracks of the system because we have been gradually transferring responsibility to the government and others for the last 40 yrs or so.

It's not the college's fault because they called the law enforcement; it's not law enforcement's fault because they went to the judge; it's not the judge's fault because he ordered psychiatric evaluation; it's not the parents' fault because they agreed to psychiatric evaluation; it's not the psychiatrist's fault because he recommended further treatment; it's the professor's fault because she dumped him from her class; it's not the department head's fault because she tutored him; it's not his suitemates' fault because he only acting strange, not homicidal; etc.

In every case it's not anybody's fault because it's somebody else's responsibility and so he slips through the cracks. The truth is it's his fault and his alone that he acted as he did, but everyone who ever thought "there's something not right about that kid" but failed to act because "it's none of my business" or because "we have to be tolerant of the eccentricities of others, particularly minorities" had a chance to disrupt the shooter on his way to the VT massacre. Before we became so politically correct, "the village" would have stopped this young man's descent into depravity but now that we depend on the government to be "the village" he slips through the cracks.

[Hard Right]

"The reason that the death toll was so high was that the shooter was able to go from room to room at will and at his own pace."

Exactly. If you are worried about letting students have guns then let the teachers have them. It works extremely well in Israel. Also, as was posted in another thread a military veteran was killed when he tried to confront the gunman. If he'd had a gun perhaps the death toll would be much lower.

[crazy]

Guns in the classroom are one way to handle future shooters, but did anyone pull the fire alarm? Or did anyone pull out the firehose and blow the gun out of his hands? Or blind the shooter with the fire extinquisher, etc. I'm not trying to second guess the victims in any way. I'm only suggesting that there are other "weapons" available in every academic building/classroom that we don't think of if we haven't thought about (or been taught) what we might use in an emergency. When was the last time any school taught students to do anything besides depend on someone else to save them in case of emergency?

[charles]

it's funny how a certain type of person will get on one side or the other of any issue just to be contrary

even though it is diametrically opposite of statements they have made here in the very recent past

these people have more twists and turns than a weather vane

what a blatant display of hypocracy

[seekeronos]

I've always believed that abundant availability and access to firearms will work as a check to keep people from randomly shooting other (presumably innocent) folk.

Personally, I can do without another layer of restrictions (such as the release of all mental health information to the NCIS or a similar watchdog group as I proposed above)... but given the very unlikely situation of the US loosening gun controls anytime soon, I'll take that over mandatory and unilateral gun ownership bans as favored by the evil, totalitarian Left.

I say that every American *without a police record* ought to be given a $1500 tax rebate upon their 18th birthday applicable only to the purchase of a handgun, ammunition, and the training to use it.

I'd be willing to go a step further and consider that we should imitate Switzerland's example and make firearms training and ownership mandatory for every law-abiding American *citizen* over age 18; even a nutjob like Cho would have thought twice about unloading a clip or five into a classroom if faced with 15 or 20 targets that returned fire.

[rightwingprof]

Every time a university has taken action with respect to a student who was mentally ill and the student has sued, the courts have come down against the university. There was nothing more Virginia Tech could have done.

Thank the courts and the liberals who have passed legislation protecting the rights of the mentally ill and students to the detriment of us all. Virginia Tech is not to blame here.

[Cindi]

When was the last time any school taught students to do anything besides depend on someone else to save them in case of emergency?

Posted by: crazy | Friday, April 20, 2007 at 12:50 PM

Exactly. From a very early age, children need to be taught awareness of their surroundings. Who,what,when,where and why.

[nowinger]

Let's start scaring them in grade school. Bingo. Not only are they to be deathly afraid of any brown people who are either (a) illegal alien criminals or (b) IslamOfascists we must now, on the strength of one nutjob with a glock teach them to be deathly afraid of each other. What we need is to raise a generation of hair trigger freaks who assume anyone who acts or thinks differently then they do is either a terrorist or a mass murderer. Great idea. That will work well, look how well the wild west turned out.

[Zifnab]

Um... no. I think that would be a catastrophically dumb idea.

As previously stated numerous times, what VT needed was more cops not more guns. Guiliani cleaned up New York with an increased police presence, not an increased firearms presence.

Think about it this way. Cho was messed up in the head for years before he picked up a gun and shot anybody. But he had four other roommates and a girlfriend, all of whom didn't suffer from mental ailments. Under your plan, all of them would have guns Cho could conceivably gain access to. Sure, with his mental history, Cho would never have been issued a gun, but if he'd snapped a few months earlier, the guns would have been that much closer to him.

Then you have to recognize that Cho isn't the only mentally deranged individual in this world. Giving everyone who isn't batshit crazy a gun just puts everyone who is batshit crazy that much closer to a gun. Perhaps if every classroom Cho marched into was armed to the teeth, someone would have shot Cho sooner. But you'd be replacing one massive killing spree with dozens of smaller ones, as deranged individuals with weapons close at hand - people who would normally lash out with verbal abuse or fists or backpacks or kitchen knives - suddenly open fire on their perceived aggressors.

Imagine a frat-house full of very drunk, very horny frat guys each packing heat. There's enough rape and vandalism on campuses as it is without giving rapists and vandals pistols. This is literally a formula for anarchy.

[GRG]

Crazy hit upon a truth..especially if you're aware of the legal-mental health system: the entire system is based on passing responsibility from one agency to the next.

Yes, the shooter was responsible, ultimately. However, we pay colleges to teach, do research, etc. and to keep their campuses safe. If the colleges cannot keep a campus safe, then I would pay them less. And I might start consider letting people carry weapons.

If you know campus police, you realize they are often inept. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Colleges will need more expert, better trained, and more conditioned cops. You can put a thousand cops on campus, and that would certainly cut down shooters earlier. How ever at what cost? It is payoff v. risk/cost.

One could arm professors. I am a professor and I can tell you don't want to arm teachers. Most are weird(ha). I don't think a teacher, who would need expert training, wants to be armed. I work with violent people. Most profs don't.

The other issue to think about in arming teachers is liability. If a college or school is going to arm teachers, or allow firearms, then it assumes a huge liability. Insurance will go up (and it is sky high anyway). All the teachers will have to be trained and retrained and certified. I can tell that is an unrealistic scenario. And then most profs will likely shoot themselves accidentally.

The students are not going to be allowed to carry firearms. The problems are too many. Heck there would be 35 shootings on the basketball courts each week over traveling calls.

The most realistic solution is increased police presence. That is going to bring some issues (like those guys are going to give tickets and cause the usual harassment if they have free time).

You cannot rely on the mental health system. It is under-funded. Further, there are weird patients all over that system. Not all can be committed. Not all are psychotic. If a patient tells you whom he is going to kill, then the Tarasoff laws dictate a doctor calling the intended victim; until then there is complete confidentiality of psychiatric record.

These campus shooters are like suicide bombers. Having an army with that firepower in Iraq hasn't cut down the suicide bombers. It draws them out. They are committed to a particular path; our hope is to reduce their damage.

It is a conundrum.

Lastly, Hard Right, you are a obviously unhappy little troll :-)

[Hard Right]

Coming from you GRG I take that as a compliment. Again you make claims unsuported by reality. Hey GRG, many college kids own guns. Are there "35 shootings a week"? Duuuuhhhhh, no. That's it GRG, deny reality and claim GUNS cause crime. There is something not right about you.

[Hard Right]

BTW, if guns caused crime, why are tens of thousands dying every week? There are more guns than cars IIRC. So by your "logic" America should be a war zone.

[Hard Right]

CORRECTION: BTW, if guns caused crime, why aren't tens of thousands dying every week in America?

[LOL]

In Dan's world civil rights are just a luxury. Didn't Ben Franklin say something about those willing to trade freedom for security?

I thought BloodrageBob's conspiracy theory rant about academia was pure comedy gold. You could just see the bitterness of a college flunkie.

[bloodrage bob]

oh look, i have my very own troll fixated on me. understandable, i guess: respect, unlike water, flows from low place to high place. therefore noyyyLOLinger should respect....well, "everyone".

still, the 'stalker' thing you've got going there is a tad pathetic, LOL.

[nova]

I just thought I would mention the connection to anniversaries in the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooting. Not only did the crazy killer at VT mention Eric and Dylan and call them martyrs he timed his attack the same week as Columbine only 8 years later. Just as Timothy McVeigh did the Oklahoma City bombing 2 years to the day after Waco. McVeigh left behind a long letter explaining why he did what he did. It was in the Newseum here in D.C. but I have never seen it printed anywhere. It was addressed to some journalist as I recall. I guess the Media decided to not release it.

[templar knight]

bb, you and charles have your very own stalkers, huh? Well, as stalkers go, these two stalking you and charles are pretty pathetic, but I suppose stalkers aren't the cream of the crop, and you just have to take what you can get.

Myself, I would like to have a female stalker, one of those liberal girls who wants a President who inspires them, one who is not a racist or bigot. And she should have a cute little dog. I would like that.

[nova]

I found that piece of writing by Timothy McVeigh. I think the original is now belongs to the Newseum. And I dont know of any MSM that ever printed it.
http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/mcveigh/okcaug98.htm

[Hard Right]

25 years murder-free in 'Gun Town USA'
Crime rate plummeted after law required firearms for residents

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

[James]

None of you people went to Virginia Tech so none of you can speak as to its safety. I graduated from VT in 2000. I can tell you that it was always a VERY SAFE campus. Never did I feel unsafe there nor did anyone else I know. This campus is about as rural as you will ever get. You go to the west of campus and you are in he middle of a national forest.

I had a problem with my roommate my freshmen year. I asked to be moved and the school did not hesitate

I've visited many a college campus and I never felt safer at any of them then I did at VT. VT did an outstanding job of creating a "safe" campus for its students.

However, you can't make kids feel as if they are in a prison.

As to the school's responsibility as to this kids mental capacity; the school CAN'T remove this kid from school without reason and not get sued for violating his civil rights. This kid might have been declared a danger to himself for a period of time long enough to go through an official evaluation but that official violation deemed him of sound mental capacity. At that point, the school can do no more. The young man was reported for stalking 2 women, but those women chose not to press charges. Had they done so and had the police had something on file, then maybe the school could have done something.

The school is doing a review to see what they can do different on the future but, they did what they could do, or what the government would allow them to do.

Dan, do you really think the school wants a mentally ill lunatic roaming the campus???? Your rant makes out like you think the school just didn't care that this kid was crazy. You too Dan obviously don't know Virginia Tech, the school, the administraion, the allum...