System Failed Va Tech Students

Update: It gets worse and this idiot will continue to haunt those he victimized:

Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

Mass murderer Cho Seung-Hui  is now said to have mailed what's being called a manifesto to NBC prior to his entering the building for his second round of shootings. In a press conference it was suggested that the mailing contained various media, including video. NBC rightly shared it first with officials and no doubt will be releasing details as appropriate. MSNBC says it contained a lengthy diatribe, a disturbing multiple page rant and images.

As has been touched upon, ABC reports Cho was once ruled dangerous enough to be detained.

April 18, 2007 — - A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then the state let him go.

In 2005, after a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho was either a danger to himself or to others -- the necessary criteria for a detention order -- he was evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.

It's cliche to say people kill people, not guns - but this person was on the radar of authorities, mental health workers and the university and he was apparently released and left alone to plot and procure his guns.

Allah has an LA Times report from an instructor/poet:

“I knew when it happened that that’s probably who it was,” Giovanni said, referring to her former pupil. “I would have been shocked if it wasn’t.”…

[In the fall of 2005,] Giovanni went to the department’s then-chairwoman, Lucinda Roy, and told her she wanted Cho out of her class, and Roy obliged. “I was willing to resign before I was going to continue with him,” Giovanni said. “There was something mean about this boy.”

Giovanni said she’s taught her share of oddballs in the past, but there was something malicious about Cho’s behavior.

“I know we’re talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive,” she said. “I’ve taught troubled youngsters. I’ve taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a, really, mean streak.”

While it may be unfair to start placing responsibility for some of this based on hindsight, clearly whatever official system in operation which dealt with Cho prior to the massacre didn't work.

Such systems likely need to be revised. That would seem a more prudent move than all this political talk of gun control. Gun control does not control the evil, or the insane. It would ultimately limit the rights of law abiding citizens, more than it would help prevent another tragedy like the horrible one at Virginia Tech.

Comments

[JayDawg]

Dan, do the mentally ill have the right to own a firearm?

[Dan Riehl]

What is lacking is the ability to confirm if one is mentally ill prior to being sold a weapon. And the ACLU is one organization in the way of that.

[Retread]

Brian at Hot Air answers your question, JayDawg, and it is no, unless of course the applicant lies in answer to the specific question.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/18/atf-form-4473-question-11f/

It seems there is no way to check the truthfulness of an applicant's answer, yet. And I'd imagine all kinds of privacy issues would be argued if a change was to be proposed.

[Buzzy]

Our system for caring for seriously mentally ill people has failed due to a catch and release mentality. The SMI are detained temporarily, given medication and released back into society without any provisions for determining even if they take the medication or are any less a danger to themselves or others. In effect our mental health system in this country allowed this guy to commit these crimes due to more concern about his rights to be dangerous and mentally ill than concern over the rights of society to be safe from him.

[Hard Right]

Sickening. Just sickening.

[a.]

wow, it appears that "PC" is the reason for this mess.

Today the news people were quoting from "court papers"....the deluge has already begun.

[Hard Right]

Anyone want to bet a possible lack of insurance had anything to do with it?

[a.]

With all this coming out, if you think about the lawsuits, and the fact that most universities have their "endowments" and self insure, it will be amazing if Virginia Tech can stay afloat.

[bloodrage bob]

grrrreat, just great. now even the gutless psycho killers are media-savvy. just like their al-qaida role models. *sigh* (exits, muttering) born too late....born 200 years too damn late....

[Retread]

I'm old enough to remember the warehouse approach to incurable mental illness. Granted the drugs available today are orders of magnitude over what they were 30 and 40 years ago but the attitude that everyone has a 'right' to live in a normal setting overrides common sense. Gone are days of public safety being an argument for institutionalizing an individual.

I'm not advocating a return to the old days of lock 'em up and throw away the key, but certainly the gray area in the middle between that and few to none being in long-term psych wards can be explored.

[a.]

bloodrage bob, I don't understand why they didn't seek help also through his religious community?

[mkultra]

There are literally thousands and thousands and thousands of people out there as nutty as Cho. Institutionalizing all of them in order to prevent this kind of incident from happening would cost literally billions and billions. And it would have to be indefinite detention, after all, how do you forcibly medicate them when they are on the outside?

So, who wants to be the first to raise the revenue necessary to pay for their containment?

It's never going to happen. Get real. And the weaponry will also always be available. In sum, there is little or nothing that society will or can do about these kind of incidents. They're just going to happen. Get used to it.

[bloodrage bob]

that may be the first thing mkultra has ever written that i (sorta) agree with. the world is what it is: full of loons; full of weapons.

the question becomes, how best to cope? how best to protect life/home/family from the world's realities? i humbly suggest that "get used to it" is just too damn passively liberal. when big brave cho stormed that conveniently unarmed and helpless class, and had them line up, about all they could do - being in a gun free zone - was get used to it. i suggest an alternative.

are we not men? free men? do we dare not defend ourselves from the admittedly big bad world? again: 1 or 2 handguns in the hands of the dead might have ended it, and saved many lives. *maybe not*. i freely admit it. but....as opposed to "you have no chance whatsoever, so get used to it", i'd sure prefer SOME chance to none. i suspect those meekly lining up might have thought along the same lines. too late.

and it WILL happen again. the genie's out of the bottle. losers are planning their own massacres even now. "i'll show those bastards!" knowing this, how best to prepare?

[a.]

What many still do not understand is why they didn't realize they outnumbered him? He shot each of them three times (per the doctor interviewed on MSNBC), that gives precious seconds to the others.

[TheSpartan]

For most of us Gun Control does not entail taking guns from law abiding citizens, it's about limiting access to guns for those who shouldn't have them and making people jump through a ton of hoops. I don't have a problem with limiting access to certain types of weapons or ammunition though it doesn't look like that would have helped in this case (do we know if he actually had clips/magazines that had been previously banned?). Though clearly the guy was crazy and medicated as well.

[templar knight]

No clips or magazines were banned, per se, greek. After whatever year it was, I don't remember the exact year, certain high capacity magazines(over 10 rounds) were no longer allowed to be manufactured for new guns, but hundreds of thousands of high capacity magazines(pre-ban magazines is how they are referred to) were on the open market and were regularly available at retail stores and in catalogues. The magazines you refer to were never banned, just the new manufacture of them.

This guy could have legally bought high-capacity magazines through a catalogue, or even in a retail gun store. I have bought a number of them over the years for my Mini-14's, as Ruger quit suppling the civilian market with high capacity magazines a few years ago. But high capacity Ruger-manufactured magazines are still available as well as magazines made by other companies.

I don't know very much about Glocks, as I have never owned one, but the 9mm is not considered by most to be a great man stopper, and was involved in the infamous FBI shootout where two shooters killed 4? FBI agents in Florida after having been shot muliple times by 9mm's. I was surprised at the carnage at VTU, and have concluded that the shooter must have shot most of the victims in the head. I would like to withhold judgment on the implications of this until I learn more about the shootings.

[Purple Avenger]

"do the mentally ill have the right to own a firearm?"

Question 11-f on the 4473 prohibits them from trying to buy one. Its a Federal Felony good for a year in Club Fed if you lie on the 4473.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/

[BobInStamford]

"*sigh* (exits, muttering) born too late....born 200 years too damn late...."

Methinks bloodrage bob fancies himself a playwright. A angry, redneck Shakespeare perhaps. Ahh, the bard of budweiser.

[Purple Avenger]

"why they didn't realize they outnumbered him?"

We breed passivity into citizens (i.e. the sheep) these days starting before they even go to school. Don't do anything...let the police handle it...give the robbers whatever they want...don't fight back against the bully, let the school handle it, "violence never solved anything"...etc.

We magnify that passivity among the sheep by making sure those in positions of authority in schools are stripped of any means of lethal response for dire situations. Our potential sheepdogs are toothless and shackled.

I'm sure the guy was amenable to negotiations and mediation though. The victims simply didn't try hard enough.

[James]

Dan, is it not sickening that the media is releasing these photos and videos. They are letting this guy get his rocks off from the grave. They are sensationalizing this guy and making him famous beyond his dreams. Other nut cases out there will see this and want to be famous too.

Not to mention the pain these images are causing the Virginia Tech Community. I think the message board I linked below represents the general feelings of the VT community and I can tell you, we are disgusted with the media. These images should never have been shown on TV.

The media is no better than a bunch of tabloids. There is no real journalism anymore. Its all about ratings and the money they are making at the expense of the Virginia Tech Family. I bet the victims families see none of the money they are making off this story. The media needs to go away, give us our town back and let us heel as a family.

http://www.techsideline.com/message_board/coverage/

[Leatherneck]

I would like to read what Cho wrote to NBC, then NBC sent to the FBI. I want to see his computer, if he had one, and I want Ismail AX explained in the media.

I am offended as an American that Christ was not used at the gathering for the dead, and wounded. Screw allah, budda, and the crazy black chick that talked about Africa, and aids.

[a.]

James posted a link, this is an excerpt from an article at that link:

QUOTE;The Final Emotion

by Will Stewart, TechSideline.com
General Manager and Managing Editor
Apr 18, 2007

"We never thought this would be us. We have watched these kinds of tragedies from afar, but this one has hit us where we live. The media have descended from around the world, poking, prodding, and worst of all, trying to place blame. An immense amount of pressure has been brought to bear on the Virginia Tech community, first by Cho Seung-Hui himself and then by the crush of international attention. While some of the coverage has been compassionate, much of it has not been, and some of it has bordered on cruel and sensationalistic. None of this surprises me, but being at the center of it still stings, and it changes your perceptions forever."

[Aussie]

This guy shouldn't have even held a driving license. He would have been just as dangerous behind the wheel of a car.

We (overseas) hear so much about the oppressive Patriot Act, yet from the overseas perspective it seems the US is actually too permissive about everything, with local and foreign psychopaths and dangerous ideoleogues walking the streets freely.

[Purple Avenger]

"yet from the overseas perspective it seems the US is actually too permissive about everything"

Yea, we need some genuine oppression and thuggish dictatorial rule here to give people a taste of what its like in the rest of the world and how well off freedom wise we really are. You Aussies are screwed. You signed away your souls to the nanny state decades ago.

[ConserView]

"Screw allah, budda"

Your ignorance is showing about Buddha. When is the last time you heard of a Buddhist killing somebody in the name of Buddha? They are the most peaceful people on earth. However, I agree with the rest of your point.

[imaginewhirledpeas]

"I am offended as an American that Christ was not used at the gathering for the dead, and wounded. Screw allah, budda, and the crazy black chick that talked about Africa, and aids."

Leatherneck you must have missed some of the convocation because Christ was "used" by three speakers including POTUS.

[imaginewhirledpeas]

"We (overseas) hear so much about the oppressive Patriot Act, yet from the overseas perspective it seems the US is actually too permissive about everything, with local and foreign psychopaths and dangerous ideoleogues walking the streets freely."

Aussie, you have no idea. Americans whine like school girls because the govt wants to monitor phone calls to known terrorist nations...or to make us take our shoes off when boarding a plane. Yet claim to want to restrict people from buying guns.. We had a waiting period for gun sales for a while but it was replaced by an instant background check. However, this murderer's treatment for mental illness would have slipped through on the instacheck. WHY???? Well we cannot insult his privacy by having his medical info be public knowledge...... I have to agree, it would be hilarious to watch Americans have to live for 6 months under martial law

[Aussie]

Rubbish, killing Hindu Tamils so they won't 'swamp' the Buddhist culture of Sri Lanka is the same thing as 'killing in the name of Buddha', and most of the Japanese officers in WWII underwent Buddhist training in traditional high schools, including long periods of 'peaceful' Zen meditation.

Just study the Sri Lankan conflict to see what nonsense this 'most peaceful' claim is.

[Aussie]

'Rubbish' being the idea of 'most peaceful Buddhists'.

[Aussie]

"You Aussies are screwed. You signed away your souls to the nanny state decades ago."

I agree with that, Avenger. Damn right!

[micah]

For all their digified uniforms and customs - where were all the ROTC when this freak was on his classroom to classroom killing spree?

Cowering in the corner with campus security and the police I guess...

And where were Cho's parents? They knew they had a troubled son. Their "pride" refused to seek the help he needed.

The whole thing is so infuriating, I can't watch anymore of it!

[templar knight]

The ROTC are students, and were in their classrooms, micah. It is unfair to expect them to respond any more than you would expect another student. As for the police and campus security, your point is well taken.

Cho's parents-good question. I would love to hear what they have to say. But I'm like you, I've kind of stop watching. Until something changes, anyway. There are some hard questions that need to be asked, but later. Time to grieve, now.

[Nth]

It might have only taken one person to truly stand up against this sick freak. Our passiveness towards evil has struck down another group of people. In the face of danger and death we should not run away to save our own hides, but instead must rise to the challenge to save others.

Hopefully now we will be more aware. We will watch out for evil when it rises and next time it tries to spread tragedy through our america we will rise to crush it. We must not sit back and show evil that we are willing to sit idly by while it spreads fear amongst our schools and public structures. We must ready our selves (if that means arming ourselves) for the next whackjob that comes along. That way when/if they do appear we can stamp them out before they can attack.

[micah]

Yes TK, Grieving, but through gritted teeth. I feel so angry that this kid was able to pull this off! I agree that blaming people won't bring anyone back - but the gross negligence is just staggering! Please consider kids like Ryan Clark, only days from graduation! All the tuition, hard work, bright futures, forever gone, not just because of a lone gunman, but because the systems in place to protect their community failed them!

[foobar]

I find it very interesting his two English profs. were so quick out the gate patting themselves on their backs stating how they knew it was him, how weird he was, how deluded his writings in their classes were, all the while, while crowing about their insight, plainly being bliss to being the ones actually permitting him to stay in the school which ends up with all of this.

That is what kind of teachers and what kind of school is that were the garbage gibberish this student submits is acceptable and makes the passing grade? How does this nut job pass at this level in university. How do these two profs. pass him. Turns out that one of them when confronted with this by the media states "she was intimidated" so she gave him an A.

The one posts "guards" in her classes in case he snaps, the other tutors him privately because he's so weird, yet they all pass him to get to the next year. How many other fuck ups are being passed in this school and then let out into society with their little VT "degree"

Nice.

Someone should do an analysis of crime, "weird shit", fraud, "going postal" other anti-social behavior / events in the US and determine who came out of this VT school system. If you feel like grunting and groaning in class for 4 years, wear an ipod in class and sunglasses and not participate, yet walk away with a degree, VT your school.

[templar knight]

foobar, I wouldn't be too hard on VTU, as it is no different from MOST other universities in the US. Very little security, very little interest in crime control, little interest in anything that might damage the reputation of the university, all of which leads to a system that does not function.

We have universities with hundreds of millions of dollars, in some cases billions, who spend virtually nothing on security. They employ police forces that are short on personnel, experience, and salary. One would hope that this tragedy will finally change the thinking of these college administrations, but I thought Colombine was a wakeup call, but alas, no. I imagine everything will go back to business as usual as soon as everything blows over. Sad.

[Raging_Dave]

The problem with police and security is that they cannot actually prevent an incident from happening. All they can do is respond to it. There's not much you can actually do to prevent a massacre like this from happening, other than having someone armed cap the psycho when he first starts shooting.

And again, VTU had banned all guns from their campus. It's proof positive that gun laws only disarm the law-abiding.

[templar knight]

"The problem with police and security is that they cannot actually prevent an incident from happening."

I completely disagree with that premise, Dave, and this particular situation demonstrates my point. This is exactly the kind of incident that extra security and good police work could well have prevented.

As soon as the first murders were discovered, and the shooter was nowhere to be found, the campus police should have called in assistance from Blacksburg PD, locked the campus down, and conducted a room by room, building by building search. The killer would most likely have been discovered, or at best might have escaped. Whether he could have conducted his criminal activities elsewhere, one will never know, but I doubt it. He would have turned himself in, or committed suicide, either way, all of these kids killed after the first murders would still be alive.

[Leatherneck]

My use of buddha next to allah was that they are both false religions. POTUS, I only heard G-d, not in Christ name.