Illegal Immigration Propaganda

The AP appears to be doing its part to subvert the national discussion on illegal immigration with this story. AP Photo/Jeff Chiu

PALO ALTO, Calif. (AP) -- Twelve-year-old Adrian Ramirez huddled with his two sisters on a bench and tried to find the words to describe his feelings about their mother's pending deportation to Mexico.

"I want my family to be together," he said, wiping away tears as Yadira, 10, and Adriana, 6, stared at their shoes. "I want them to stop these laws. I don't know what life would be like in Mexico. My home is in Palo Alto."

So the children are suffering. But why? In this case, the parents played the system for a decade. No mention of the government resources expended chasing them around for a decade or more as they flaunted the law and had children, now legal citizens by birth.

Maybe we should stop prosecuting any crime where the defendant has children - how about murder and pedophilia next? After all, do we really want to put children at risk simply because their parents are criminals?

If we don't hold firm on what little bit of immigration law we have, we only encourage more and more individuals to flood into the country without respect for the law. That is not a solution, deportation is. It may be the only thing that discourages the assault on America coming through our southern border. It's time to draw a line ... and also build that fence on which Bush is back peddling.

Ramirez and Aguirre had evaded deportation orders and notices to appear in court since 1997, immigration officials said. They said the couple ignored the law and consequently were arrested.

"We've been working with these people for years," said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokeswoman Lori Haley. "Now it's up to the parents what they want to do. They can take the children with them, or leave them with relatives or people they can entrust them to."

Comments

[southdakotaboy]

One of the things that is never addressed by either party is the damage that illegal immigration does to the young,black, males citizens of this country. Right now the black community is suffering from the disitigration of the traditional family. One of the main causes ( not the only one )is the lack of good jobs to help these young men provide a good living for their families. Befor the massive influx of illegals into the meatpacking industry wages were some of the highest in the midwest. Now after those jobs have been taken by illegals and wages have plumeted.
We need to jail those company ex's who employ illegals. We need to give them long prison sentences and we need to deport the illegals we catch at the border only after we hold them for at least a year. It needs to be something other than catch and release. Make them work, have one group dig holes and have another come along and fill them. Do that for 365 and they will think twice about trying to enter illegaly.
We need to make the visa process faster for those who play by the rules. We also need to get rid of any quotas that we have. Hispanics are great people we should welcome them to our country as long as they do it leagaly.

[Doc]

We also need to recognize and institute as law the fact that the Founders never meant for the Constitution to say that the children born in this country of those who enter illegally are automatically citizens. That would have been madness to them, and should be seen as madness to us.

[Zifnab]

I agree. If there's one thing I can't stand, its children of illegal immigrants. We should keep'm in prisons like they do in Texas and repeatedly rape them. That'll keep the immigrants out.

See, everyone wins. The immigrants get to stay home. The average joe doesn't have to look at brown people. And Texas Republicans get to indulge in gang-rape pedophilia fantasies.

[nowinger]

That's true, but it will never happen. The Democrats, the latinos and the Catholic Church would go to to the mat against that type of law change. It would be interesting if something like that could be put on a referendum, and whether it could pass in any of the Southwestern states.

[nowinger]

Zifnab,

Can you give me one good reason why people who come to the US illegaly should be allowed to stay here instead of being prosecuted or returned to their home countries? We're not talking about people fleeing repressive regimes or political prisoners, we're talking about millions of people entering this country illegally because their own country sucks and because we let them do it.

[Doc]

Let us assume that Zifnab is trying to make a point, part of which would be the subtext that putting the children of illegal immigrants in prison etc would actually be morally objectionable. Now the cool thing is that someone like Zifnab probably would not be able to actually ground his moral objections to such action on anything real. How 'bout it, Zifster, care to try and demonstrate that it actually SHOULD BE SEEN as morally objectionable to do such things? Because, let's face it, throughout much of human history, even more evil things than that have been done to those who are not part of the 'in' group, as it were, and it was claimed to be the right thing to do. If it is morally superior to refrain from doing such things, prove it. And please don't make some absurd inference from my asking you to do so that I therefore DON'T acknowledge that doing such things is morally repugnant. That would simply demonstrate that you can't or won't understand the distinction between WHAT one holds to be morally good, and WHY one holds it to be so.

[jim]

Just to repeat for the umpteenth time:

a) Illegal immigrants are here for the jobs.

b) cheap Illegal labor means big profits for US businesses, including very specifically the huge agricultural industry and related concerns that employ the illegals.

c) Therefore, you will *never* reduce illegal immigration until you offer something to make these profits not worth it to the employers. And fines aren't good enough - companies will just deduct the fines from their profits.

But you put through mandatory jail time for the CEO's all businesses that are found to employ illegals, and those jobs will dry up in a second - and 99.99999 % of illegals won't have any reasons to come here.

I mention all this so you know: any time any pundit talks about deportation, border guards, walls, etc. etc. to stop illegal immigration - that pundit is yanking your chain.

[Doc]

Jim, I got no problem with that. Of course, I'm no expert at the border/immigration issue, and I suspect no one else commenting here is, either. Those whose judgement I have reason to respect inform me that it's not an either/or, it's a both/and. We should be pursuing ALL modalities to reduce illegal immigration. One that's often not mentioned (but was touched on by someone else above) is that our current legal immigration process is absurdedly slow. For those who meet certain reasonable qualifications (education level, means, employment prospects, family relations, etc) it shouldn't take years for them to be granted legal status.

[mkultra]

"Can you give me one good reason why people who come to the US illegaly should be allowed to stay here instead of being prosecuted or returned to their home countries?"

Because Republicans need gardners, nannies, and cheap labor. Geez, get with the program.

The great thing about the illegal immigration issue is that it shows what idiots the vast majority of right wingers are. The GOP represents itself as the party against illegal immigration, and wingers vote for GOP'ers because the believe that GOP'ers are going to do something to stem the tide of illegal immigration. But that never happens.

With the exception of the Jefford's era, the GOP ran the federal government from 2001 to 2006. And yet during that time the pace of illegal immigration skyrocketed.

Worse, the rate of sanctions against employers who hire illegal aliens declined significantly under Bush when compared to Clinton. 417 in 1999, 3 - yes 3 - in 2004.

And yet, wingers who complain about illegal immigration continue to vote GOP.

Idiots.

[Zifnab]

"Can you give me one good reason why people who come to the US illegaly should be allowed to stay here instead of being prosecuted or returned to their home countries? We're not talking about people fleeing repressive regimes or political prisoners, we're talking about millions of people entering this country illegally because their own country sucks and because we let them do it."

To answer your first query. A) With high income expenditure and a strong work ethic, they're good for the economy. B) They are often young, healthy workers capable of filling low-skill high-energy jobs. C) They have a lower crime rate than native citizens. D) Why fight it? How many times can you honestly throw someone back over the boarder before you just give up already? Seriously. It's like the Rock of Sysiphus. You're doing a whole lot of pushing and you're not getting anywhere.

In regards to your second statement - that they're not fleeing repressive regimes, just abandoning a sucky country - I do question why people who are being politically persecuting should receive more accomidation than people who are being economically crushed. Is starvation in Cuba somehow more inhuman than starvation in Nicaragua? What happens if the Nicaraguan refugee fled to Cuba, got persecuted for a couple years, then fleed to the US? Would that be preferable?

Let's face it, the "freedom from communism" pass we've been giving refugees for the past 50 years has been primarily a psychological rub against foreign communist countries ("communsim sucks so much your people are coming to America in droves!") and secondarily a means of cultivating anti-communist nationals within those countries (see: the strong anti-Castro communities in Florida). But communism is virtually dead. We need to equitize our immigration policy to recognize that a 16-year-old girl fleeing a sweet-shop in Chile has just as much right to be here as a 16-year-old girl fleeing a communal work farm in China. Our country is vast, our lands incredibly underdeveloped, our natural resources and human talent still in many ways unfulfilled. This is a great room for growth in this nation and I see no real reason to shut out the wave of immigrants who have been trickling in regardless of our effots.

[templar knight]

Uh, not necessarily, jim. Some of them are here to have their children, so these children will be US citizens under some crazy interpretation of the 13th or 14th A., I'm sure someone will correct me. Having children here has monetary advantages, such as free public education, etc. Why this is allowed is a better question.

[nowinger]

a) They don't pay taxes and are mostly relegated to below minimum wage jobs, no skills, no promotions, but often have access to resources, such as education and heath care that are reserved for citizens.

b) True, but we don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, we don't know if there were no illegals, is it true that NO American citizens would take these jobs or that the industries that depend on illegal immigrants would go bankrupt if they had to pay the minimum wage.

c) Are you sure about that? If there is any evidence that illegal immigrants are law abiding when they come here, and don't join gangs, commit crimes, etc. and are more law abiding than American citizens that would be a big plus for them.

d) All we have to do is put guards on the border, give them the okay to shoot at people when the cross and the problem of illegal immigration from Mexico would grind to a halt.

The rate of immigration has to be controlled for many reasons including protecting the immigrants themselves from being exploited, ensuring adequate resources to acclimate them to the country and its culture and having a correct population estimate on which to base government services.

[Fred Beloit]

I am beginning to think that Zifnab and nowing are a modern version of Janus, the god (I think) with one head but two faced, one facing left the other right. They seem to be almost always back to back in the same comment space. Double your pleasure, double your fun.

[jim]

- Some of them are here to have their children, so these children will be US citizens under some crazy interpretation of the 13th or 14th A., I'm sure someone will correct me. Having children here has monetary advantages, such as free public education, etc. Why this is allowed is a better question. -

Sure, I bet that occurs some of the time. Also, some probably move here to be with their families who've already come over, and some others just because they like it.

But I'm sure the overwhelming majority come for the work and the money, which they send back home to support their families still living there.

[jim]

- d) All we have to do is put guards on the border, give them the okay to shoot at people when the cross and the problem of illegal immigration from Mexico would grind to a halt. -

Nowinger, I really have to disagree with you here.

We pour an incredible about of money, resources and strategy into stopping drugs at all borders, and it doesn't work - why will this method alone work any better with illegal immigration?

People are very resourceful - and broke, hungry people looking for ways to feed themselves and their families are the most resourceful people you can possibly imagine.

[Draegn]

Yet another reason to remove the birth right admendment from the constitution. It may have been good for 1836. It does not work today.

If immigrant labor is needed so badly, why not allow 10,000 people per country to come work. Is there such a great difference between a fruit picker from Bulgaria when compared to one from Mexico?

Border country is simple, annouce anyone crossing the border outside of the Internationally recognized border crossing points, will be fired upon with deadly force. End of problem.

[nowinger]

We pour an incredible about of money, resources and strategy into stopping drugs at all borders, and it doesn't work - why will this method alone work any better with illegal immigration?

-------------

I can see your point, but not sure the drug trade the right parallel. Illegal drugs are a billion dollar business. Whomever is letting their cargo ship/airplane/truck/box car be used to ship drugs is getting paid very well. Illegal immigrants can't pay that well, at least not those from Mexico. People just walk across the border, thats ridiculous. Bin Laden could walk across the border and be working as a gardner in Poway for all anybody knows. If we have decided that our economy needs the influx of Mexican laborers then let's make it official, if not, then let's at least cut it down to a trickle, which would a much better use of Homeland Security money than protecting petting zoos and state fairs from imaginary threats.

[Zifnab]

"I am beginning to think that Zifnab and nowing are a modern version of Janus, the god (I think) with one head but two faced, one facing left the other right."

See, I thought you were refering the Chandellor's girlfriend from Friends.

[Buzzy]

Any answer to the illegal immigration problem that doesn't have stopping the hiring of illegals as it's key point is stupid. Even with that said I favor a fence, a physical barrier between Mexico and the US.

Both the right and the left have no right to point fingers at each other regarding the use of illegal aliens to maximize corporate profits. It's this millinium's version of (near) slavery, an awful practice of every administration since Jimmy Carter.

If a guest worker program is needed by these corporations the workers should be paid the same as American workers, have taxes taken from their pay and recieve the same benefits an American worker would get. But I somehow have a feeling that these corporations wouldn't want guest workers under those rules.

[scarshapedstar]

"Befor the massive influx of illegals into the meatpacking industry wages were some of the highest in the midwest. Now after those jobs have been taken by illegals and wages have plumeted."

That's an odd view of causality.

[bloodrage bob]

uh, ziffy ol'man, the lady you refer to (chandler's girlfrien')....that would be janET. a wonderful gal, really, except for the industrial buzzsaw donkey-bray laugh, which would cause any normal man to chew off his leg in order to escape. chandler, of course, wasn't exactly 'normal'. am pretty sure he was a democrat, though. not sure what freud would make of that.

*sigh* sure do miss 'friends'. especially ol' jen anniston. you could always tell when ol' jen was chilly, and she was chilly a LOT. i like that in a woman. "you look cold, jen. might i draw you a nice hot bath? great! i'll just set up the video camera first.."

[Eric]

""We've been working with these people for years," said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokeswoman Lori Haley. "Now it's up to the parents what they want to do. They can take the children with them, or leave them with relatives or people they can entrust them to."

What the AP article did not say was that the parents had been scammed by a lawyer they hired to submit applications for green cards. He has since been disbarred (but not jailed, as far as I know). The "we've been working with..." interaction between the family and Immigration consisted of exchanges like "Have you processed our papers yet?" "What papers?" "We sent them last year ..." There is recourse in the courts for US citizens who have been defrauded, but not for these people.

Another sad aspect of these cases is that social welfare departments try to repair broken families, re-training abusive or neglectful parents so they can keep their children. In such legal proceedings, the children are represented by court-appointed counsel - but not for these people. Here the parents are perfectly competent, but ICE proposed putting the children into foster homes as a solution.

[templar knight]

What's your point, Eric? They were here illegally, and should have been deported years ago, and all this crap wouldn't even be going on. And the taxpayers would have saved thousands of dollars. Enforce the law.

And let these perfectly competant people take their children with them to Mexico. See, problem solved. They knew they were breaking the law when they came here, and the breaking of laws has consequences, Eric.

[Digger]

Zifnab said above:

"B) They are often young, healthy workers capable of filling low-skill high-energy jobs. C) They have a lower crime rate than native citizens. D) Why fight it?"

B) That's why we're seeing a resurgence of diseases long since eradicated here and it has been traced back to illegal aliens who aren't screened for diseases like legal immigrants are right?

C) 100% is a lower crime rate? Every illegal alien has broken a law coming here in the first place.

D) Because it is our country, or are you suggesting surrender to every problem we have?

[bloodrage bob]

better yet, when they're found and being prepped for deportation, *seize their assets*.

RICO their illegal butts. it's what they do to mafia dons and enron execs, so why shouldn't it apply here? sure, there won't be much to seize: car, a little money, but what the heck. there'd be enough to pay for running the program, and it'd sure make all the mexicans thinking about going mojado stop & think twice: "i'm gonna pick lettuce/be a landscape guy just so they can take all my money?"

failing that, slap a 99% tax on money wired out-of-the-country. lie and say it's "to fight the flow of drug money", or something. dems LOVE new taxes, right?

or we could just grow up and defend our borders.

[Phoenix]

I am beginning to think that Zifnab and nowing are a modern version of Janus, the god (I think) with one head but two faced, one facing left the other right. They seem to be almost always back to back in the same comment space. Double your pleasure, double your fun.

Posted by: Fred Beloit | Wednesday, April 04, 2007 at 05:30 PM

I was thinking about this, Fred. Zifnab is definitely on and off - we've all noted it. I figure his roommate is a history/economics major. Zif majors in P.E. and minors in sociology, and when he wants to make a point, he gets his roomie, Bif, to write it for him.