Guns Down, Gun Crime Up In Britain

On the heels of a 1996 school shooting in Britain, they enacted some of the toughest gun restrictions anywhere. British Olympic shooters can't even practice in Britain. However, gun violence in Britain has continued to increase year by year.

It is delusion, however, to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results. In the aftermath of Dunblane, the passionate arguments for an all-out ban won the day, and would be hard to reverse now. It is a complete and effective restriction that has meant that our Olympic shooters can train only outside the country. Those, like Mick North, father of one of the dead girls, who continue to campaign against handguns, have set their face against any relaxation of the law and would like to see the sport of shooting banned from the Olympics. “What do people in Britain want — medals or murder?” he asks.

It is an understandable, if obsessional, reaction, but it has little to do with the real issue. The ban has had no discernible effect on gun crime, which has continued a steady rise dating back more than 25 years and which accounted for some 4,000 injuries in the UK last year. Immediately after the ban, the number of shootings actually went up and has stayed up, though the homicide rate, which is relatively low, has been almost unaffected. In Scotland, for instance, the rate of about eight killings a year by guns has remained the same despite the Dunblane ban.

Meanwhile Switzerland has compulsory gun ownership and despite one political-based attack, continues to have a low rate of violent crime. Food for thought from the TimesOnLine.

Nor does the widespread possession of arms necessarily indicate a violent society. In Switzerland, for instance, where owning a gun is mandatory and where the laws and traditions of the country require every able-bodied adult to keep a semi-automatic weapon at home, crime levels have been historically low — that is, until the horrific events of September 2001, when a deranged gunman broke into the local parliament at Zug, near Zurich, and shot dead 14 people, injuring 14 more, before shooting himself. Although the nation was, understandably, shocked, no one seriously argued that access to weapons was responsible for one inexplicable and insensate act.

Comments

[bloodrage bob]

there was an interesting quote (somewhere) on the web, nova. something to the effect that when we mewl that "we can't say what we would have done in that situation", we automatically make cowardice the default position.

and while i do not choose to *attack* the "men" who hid under desks, hoping for the best; or lined up meekly, rather than trying....ANYthing to save themselves....; i can't really see how that behavior is praiseworthy, either.

[nova]

Tomb: You have seen too many movies and tv shows. Cho had 2 guns. took 2 seconds to load. again I repeat if the students(and or teachers)could have jumped him they WOULD HAVE jumped him. Who is to say that there werent heroes who tried to rush him and failed. Just like you would have failed. If you werent running the other way or jumping behind a desk or jumping out the window. Get real. This isnt Hollywood. This guy was trained on video games and was a pro. He didnt mess up. Anyone who chains doors is on a well thought out mission. You are just another arm chair John Wayne.
Read this. Blame it on April.
Tragic Month of April
Wars that started/ended in April include:

The American Revolution (Started with Paul Revere's Ride: April 18-19 April 1775)
The American Civil War (Started April, 1861, ended April 1865, thus "Across Five Aprils")
The Bosnian War began in the first days of April, 1992
The Rwandan Genocide began in April, 1994
The Armenian Genocide began in April 24, 1914
Other events that have occurred in the month of April include:

President Abraham Lincoln's assassination (April 14, 1865)
The Frank Slide (April 29, 1903)
The 1906 San Francisco Earthquake (April 18, 1906)
The sinking of the RMS Titanic (April 14-15 April 1912)
The Armenian Genocide (April 24, 1915)
Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination (April 4, 1968)
Jumbo Tornado Outbreak (April 3-4, 1974)
Woo Bum-Kon spree killing (April 26-27, 1982)
Chernobyl nuclear accident (April 26, 1986)
The 1992 Los Angeles Riots after the Rodney King verdict (April 29, 1992)
The bloody end to the Branch Davidian siege in Waco, Texas (April 19, 1993)
Kurt Cobain commits suicide (April 5, 1994)
The Oklahoma City Bombing (April 19, 1995)
In Lebanon, at least 106 Lebanese civilians are killed when the Israel Defense Forces shell the UN compound at Qana (see Qana Massacre). (April 18, 1996)
The Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania, Australia (April 28, 1996)
The Columbine High School massacre in Littleton, Colorado (April 20, 1999)
The 2007 Virginia Tech massacre in Blacksburg, Virginia (April 16, 2007).

[Hard Right]

Nova, the knife was to display that you don't have some of the knowledge I do. Not embarrass or insult. As you've been civil I wanted to return the favor. Per what happened to your father I can see why you feel the way you do. I simply disagree with you on firearms.

Would I go out the window if I could? Yes. If escape isn't an option than fighting for my life IS. Maybe I would have been killed, but I'll be damned if I don't even try. At least I die fighting. Your belief that attacking someone with two semi-auto handguns while I'm unarmed is futile and therefore shouldn't be done is repulsive to me. I will not die like a lamb led to the slaughter if I have any kind of chance to fight. I'm sure you would hide under the desk, crying like a girl, but don't project your cowardice onto me.

[nova]

BB: I have already written on here somewhere else that I would have jumped out the window if I could have. Or blockaded a door if I could have. But under NO circumstances would I run at a man with two Semiautomatic handguns(and I believe he had hollow point ammo which is why the kill rate was so high). I suspect their were heroes who tried to stop him and died doing it.

[nova]

Hard Right: You dont know what I would have done and I dont know what you would have done. So accept my above post as what I would have done. And yes I would hide behind a desk or play dead if that would have been the only option. What would you have done?

[TomB]

"Tomb: You have seen too many movies and tv shows. Cho had 2 guns. took 2 seconds to load. again I repeat if the students(and or teachers)could have jumped him they WOULD HAVE jumped him. Who is to say that there werent heroes who tried to rush him and failed. Just like you would have failed."

What a pathetic little person you are. You made a snarky comment about hiding behind desks and "Oh, I can just see you running toward Cho to overcome him", the implication being that nobody is that brave. Well it happens a lot more than you imagine. I just posted one example of an very brave young man.

[nova]

Hard Right: You need to get off that knife bit. It would have done you no good unless you are really good at throwing it. Again that sounds more like something out of a movie to me. Are you a killer Marine by chance?

[bloodrage bob]

i just wanna make sure i'm getting this right....the *conservatives* are calling for brave and swift action in the face of danger; while the *liberal* is insisting that such a thing is impossible and ridiculous to even contemplate? that IS what i'm seeing here, right?

wow. it's like a political microcosm.

[TomB]

"Cho had 2 guns"

Nova, you may have missed it, but Kinkel had three guns.

[nova]

TomB: Dont tell me what someone else did in another case. Tell me what you would have done.

[TomB]

"TomB: Dont tell me what someone else did in another case. Tell me what you would have done."

I would have pulled out my legally purchased KelTec P3AT and shot him as many times as it took for him to go down.

[nova]

BB: There are no conservatives or liberals in fox holes. So if you and I had been there I dont think it would have been a political microcosm.
I have noted that on this board you and others try to turn topic into a conservative versus liberal deal. This surely has nothing to do with those terms.

[Hard Right]

"again I repeat if the students(and or teachers)could have jumped him they WOULD HAVE jumped him."

And you are talking out your ass. How do you know that they would have jumped him if they could. You are correct that we don't yet know if anyone tried. So far it's looking as though no one did.

"This guy was trained on video games and was a pro..."

SAY WHAT? WHAT DID YOU SAY? Since when does playing those kinds of video games improve your shooting abilities in ANY way? Where do you get the "proof" of him being a "pro" from? Nowhere. That's where.
Tell me, what is the Tueller Drill? You don't know because you didn't look it up. You may have been a "marksman" shooting at non moving paper targets back in the 60's, but it doesn't mean you know jack sh** 30+ years later-especially when it comes to lethal force encounters

BTW, you don't know either of us jackass, so don't tell us what we would and wouldn't do.

[bloodrage bob]

maybe so, nova. maybe so. but you ARE insisting that brave & swift action in the face of peril is impossible; and ridiculous to even *suggest*, right?

how would you characterize that position?

[Hard Right]

Ok, got a little cheesed at your "john wayn/hiding" comments Nova-sorry. I apologize for the names.

[TomB]

Maybe this will put an end to the whining, but I doubt it. It is from today's Washington Post:

"There was more carnage in the hallway. Kevin Granata had heard the commotion in his third-floor office and ran downstairs. He was a military veteran, very protective of his students. He was gunned down trying to confront the shooter."

Protective, veteran, unbelievably brave. But unarmed.

[GRG]

I don't know CCW. I have never seen anything by Brady. I don't understand why people need to label thoughts. Does labeling take the place of thoughtful reflection?

I don't understand labeling 'liberal'. I don't get into politics too much. I don't have anything against liberals nor conservatives. I really don't like politicians however.

I also don't think I am the only one to be allowed to own weapons (I am not a good shot :-) ). Again, I would urge folks to actually think for themselves rather than call names, label people, or try to think for them. Do these activities take the place of thinking for oneself?

So we don't have a clue. That's funny. Real funny.

Within it's range a knife is every bit as lethal as a weapon. I gotta chuckle out of that. What is the blade's range? 24 inches on a good day? Is this the Last of the Samuri?

Let's do a challenge: You can have a knife, I will even give you a knife on the end of a weapon. Affix your bayonet. I haven't done that in awhile.

I will use the very same weapon, it can even be an old bolt action. You don't get ammo and I do. I don't get a bayonet and you do. Let's square off at that 10 meters and go at it. You have a knife (bayonet and I have a weapon) You willing to try this out? I suspect I will be walking away from this.

Point made. End of controversy. Unless someone with a semiautomatic Glock wants to take me on with my old bolt action. Then, considering the firepower, I am in trouble.

Knife wound v. gun wound. I would take the knife wound every time. I can sew up those knife wounds (and not to say knives aren't dangerous). I cannot sew up head shots. Not much left there.

You guys need to do less labeling and more thinking. When we held positions we didn't put a guy with a knife out there, or even a single shot revolver. Automatic weapon. And I may be dated, but when we gave orders we were trained to stand next to the BAR operator. We wanted to be next to the firepower just in case.

I just don't get this whole 'lefty' or 'liberal' thing. I don't read that stuff, and have never read gun control literature. But I do know BS when I read it.

BTW, Model 1897 Winchester pump is one of mine. My grandfathers passed on. Still didn't make me a good shot. :-)

[Aussie]

A man has detonated a home-made bomb on a bus in the Chinese city of Fuzhou, killing himself and injuring at least 31 others, state media has reported.
The bomber was a 42-year-old farmer suffering from terminal lung cancer, Xinhua news agency said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4131916.stm

and many more

[Aussie]

Police have arrested a man accused of supplying the explosives used in apartment building bombings in north China that killed 108 people, Xinhua said Tuesday.
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200103/27/eng20010327_66155.html

[Aussie]

Officials in southern China say a worker sacked from his job at a furniture factory planted a bomb at the business in retaliation, blowing up himself and 10 other workers in the process.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/848917.stm

[Aussie]

A deadly explosion in Rongxian County in South China's Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region on February 5 was caused by several middle school students who made a bomb with stolen gunpowder, police said.
The blast killed six people, including four teenagers, and injured eight others.
http://english.people.com.cn/200202/09/eng20020209_90210.shtml

[Aussie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/despatches/69752.stm

etc etc

[Aussie]

Ok they are all old news. Sorry I should have made that clear. But I am pointing to the pattern.

[bloodrage bob]

MAYbe....MAYbe the lesson we can learn from the above is that "you can't trust chinese folks".

mao IS the single worst mass murderer in human history, no? 60 million or so? (the chinese government doesn't publish fatality statistics for the 'great leap forward', and the subsequent 'cultural revolution', for some strange reason)

and lest we blame it ALL on the fact that mao was a frickin' commie, we must also study the almost-never-mentioned "228 incident" in taiwan. (although, to be fair, the 30,000 killed there pales into nothingness compared to mao's obligatory - he WAS a commie - butchery).

and now all these bombings. wow. that's a lotta dead innocents. *CLEARLY*, what china needs is more stringent gun control.

[Hard Right]

"But I do know BS when I read it."

Obviously you don't. Hell, you don't know facts when hit over the head with them. You're too busy spewing ignorance. And yes, you've made it ABUNDANTLY clear you don't have a clue and are talking out of your ass. You speak of military service and maybe even combat experience. So when? WWII? Korea? Early Vietnam?

Tell you what smart guy, I'll let you have a holstered Glock while I stand 20 feet from you with a knife. You will then draw to shoot me once I begin my charge. I guarantee you will not walk away.

You'll take a knife wound huh? You are clueless. Here's some info for you.
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/products/articles/134371/

Or, how about my WWII bolt action rifle vs. you at 20 yards? I'll need only one shot while you spray away...and miss.

Like I said, if you think magazine capacity and the ability to shoot quickly determine lethality you were asleep while in the military...and being smacked in the head to wake you up caused brain damage.

Here's some reading material to educate yourself with.

http://www.dtipubs.com/fmdsr_chap.html

More schooling
http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

The above further supports how deadly a knife can be-knives can make bigger holes and sever things that a bullet may only temporarily stretch.
BTW, what is more important? The size of the blade, or it's sharpness?

[GRG]

Look Hard Right. I am not here to argue with you, or be drawn into your rather pathetic insults. I suspect you lost track of the argument's point.

You might be a decent guy. But you just are inaccurate in a way that suggests you are simply making things up.

Son, you just are not very accurate about your statements.

For instance you statement about being 1.5 seconds away at 30 feet is simply rubbish. If you are that fast, the Olympic sprint team has a place for you. Ben Johnson when he broke the world record in the 100 M ran the first 10M (your 30 feet) in 1.85 seconds. And he was on steroids. Carl Lewis ran the first 10 M in 1.94 seconds. So the worlds FASTEST men cannot run as you describe. (http://www.cwu.edu/~acquisto/kinematics.htm)

Given that inaccuracy I doubt you are correct in many things you say. I suspect we could all eat some chips in the time it takes you to puff out 30 feet.

You're silly 20 feet charge at me with a knife would likely end up with bad things happening to you. It is just a silly example.

Son, I have seen knife wounds in surgery and I have seen bullet wounds. I can tell you which is more lethal. Look it up smart guy, that is if you're not too busy calling people 'brainless'...people you know nothing about. I can tell you the results from medical experience. Both can be fatal, but anyone with experience (or common sense) knows.

It is a good thing the law will never change to reflect your fantasy world of comic-book, movie, shoot-em ups; most people, thank god, have much more common sense.

And with that, this thread is over.

[grg]

Here are scientific data, not fabricated dreams:

Weapon Cases Deaths % Deaths 95% conf for mortality rate
Shotgun 49 10 20.4 11%-34%
Pistol 101 17 16.8 11%-25%
Ice Pick 14 2 14.3 4%-40%
Butcher Knife 15 2 13.3 4%-38%
Rifle 26 2 7.7 2%-24%
Switch-blade
knife 17 1 5.9 1%-27%
Pocket knife 44 0 0 0%-8%
Unknown GSW 14 4 28.6 12%-55%
Other stab 172 9 5.2 3%-10%

All GSW 190 33 17.4 13%-23%
All stab 262 14 5.3 3%-9%

We see that mortalities for each pointed weapon are not significantly different from mortalities for all pointed weapons, but that mortalities for stab wounds are significantly less than mortalities from gun shots.

95% confidence intervals for mortalities calculated from (Annals of Surgery 179 pp 639) are 1%-2% for abdominal stab wounds, and 11%-15% for abdominal gun shot wounds.
---------------------------
For example a study in The Journal of Trauma (36:4 pp516-524) looked at all injury admissions to a Seattle hospital over a six year period. The mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 22% while that for stab wounds was 4%. Even among patients that survived, gunshot wounds were more serious — the mean cost of treatment for these patients was more than twice that for stab wounds.

Repairing a large entry wound (like from a knife) or a small entry wound (like from a bullet) is not very difficult in either case. What is difficult is repairing vital organs. Large low-velocity things like knives tend to push them out the way, while small high-velocity things like bullets plow right into them.

[bloodrage bob]

not to get all "back on topic" or anything, but i believe the original point was "amazing how britian's crime rate has skyrocketed since they disarmed their citizenry", not "what's the nastiest way to die?".

a point no one seems to be making is, "what's the best way for john (or jane)(*especially* jane) q. citizen to defend him/herself from armed bad guys intent on doing him/her harm?" the obvious answer is "a handgun".

which leads to the followup: why are governments depriving their citizenry the most effective means of self-defense? and why do the liberals like this idea SO much?" why is "allowing only criminals to be armed" such a popular idea with the statist loons? why do they fear an armed citizenry so?

[Hard Right]

First of all YOU claimed that the "rapid fire" capabilities of the Glock and it's magazine capacity made it MORE DEADLY than a knife. I pointed out that wasn't the case. But since you STILL don't get it I'll finally tell you.

The most vital component is marksmanship. You see, 18 "rapid fire" misses with a 9mm accomplishes nothing. Yet you seem to think that's all that matters-cartridge capacity and how fast it can be shot. Yeah, you sure know your stuff.

"For instance you statement about being 1.5 seconds away at 30 feet is simply rubbish."

I said LESS than 30 feet. Not to mention there are court casing backing me up. Google Massad Ayoob.

"Large low-velocity things like knives tend to push them out the way, while small high-velocity things like bullets plow right into them."

I'm making things up? You had to google to find someone who doesn't understand basic wounding mechanisms because you THOUGHT it supported your POV.

Here's the author:
Tim Lambert (deltoidblog AT gmail.com) IS A COMPUTER SCIENTIST at the University of New South Wales.

Yup he sure knows...jack.

Here's some more knife info for you:

"The compressed skin gives suddenly, releasing the energy stored in the compressed skin and tissue (elastic reservoir). Once the skin has been penetrated, the blade slips easily through the underlying muscle, INTERNAL ORGANS and uncalcified cartilage, without the need for further application of force."
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/woundsdws.pdf

More knife info:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:aX0WC5O9DnYJ:www.thegunzone.com/edged_weapons_defense.html+how+knives+injure+organs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=24&gl=us

[Just another reader]

Gun ownership is NOT mandatory in Switzerland. Militia personnel keep their weapons at home. That's all.

Have a look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Or this one: http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/More_die_from_suicide_than_wars_and_murders.html?siteSect=105&sid=7051323&cKey=1157904394000

I really don't understand how anyone can justify US gun laws after all that has happened! And to compare that to what you believe the Swiss situation is like, makes it even more ridiculous. Switzerland has a huge problem and you make it sound like paradise for people wanting to own guns...

[Hard Right]

I wanted to address your goofy Ben Johnson claim further GRG, but it was late and my computer crashed.

First of all, Google Tueller Drill. Second, a meter is equal to 3.28 feet- Now you gave an AVERAGE and expect us to think you have to be superman to do what I mentioned. You further want us to believe that Ben starts out at top speed from the second he leaves the blocks.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

As for your source about wounding mechanisms of bullets and knives (Tim Lambert-aka Mr. Wrong), here's what Jim Cirillo (multiple shootout survivor) had to say about round nosed bullets (paraphrased)

{In a thru and through wound multiple Forensic techs told me they could not tell if a .32 caliber bullet up to a .45 caliber bullet had been used as round nose bullets part tissue instead of crushing and tearing it.}

Again, Tim sure knows more than doctors and pathologists.

Look, I haven't made anything up and I haven't had to. What I've shared is what I've learned and was taught from the experts. GRG, this isn't about military combat which is a very different animal from todays urban lethal force encounters between civilians. I would defer to you on military combat as you sound like a vet, but I will not on situations like the VT shooting.

[Fred Beloit]

Justanotherahole wrote: "Gun ownership is NOT mandatory in Switzerland. Militia personnel keep their weapons at home that's all." Well, now what a difference that makes. They are practically gunless now aren't they? The 17 to 34 year-old male citizens have access to semi-auto assault rifles and ammunition 24/7. And they can keep them after their military service. "That's all." It is estimated that there are 1.5 to 3.0 million such weapons in private homes. The Swiss like to engage in recreational shooting. This is all according to the link Zifnab or one of the other regulars with many names provided above. No wonder there is so little crime in Switzerland.

[Fred Beloit]

Now I don't look for trouble. That' not why I'm here. Personally I'm not political. In politics I favor both sides. But I am curious about this gentleman's, grg, position that when under fire he liked to be near the BAR. Now I wouldn't have, I'd would've liked to have been on the other side of the squad from the BAR if I had a choice, which I wouldn't. See the BAR attracted fire from the enemy like bees to honey. The only weapon that drew more was the 3.5-in rocket launcher. It kicked up a hell of a lot of dust, and tanks, not just riflemen, would fire at dust clouds. Do ya hear me, Hard Right, son?

[Fred Beloit]

Now lookie hear, Hard Right, son, ifin we all got next to the BAR, why we'd have busted up our perimeter and been all bunched up and that was a no-no. Now don't go insulin' me, boy, all right? Logic, reason and clarity that's the ticket.

[Hard Right]

Now why would I want to insult you Fred? Even when I disagree with you, I can at least respect you.

As for GRG, I was trying to be nice and give him the benefit of the doubt, but something is definitely screwy about him.

[Fred Beloit]

GRG wrote: "Affix your bayonet. I haven't done that in a while." Hahahahaha. You've never done it. Not in the US military you haven't, you lying fibber of a prevaricator. The term you used shows you up, as any soldier or marine could tell you. I think you, Northerner, and LOL may be the same jackass. Affix your saddle and I'll put the spurs to you. Now don't go gettin' the idea I'm insulting you, GRG; I'm just making conversation.

[Fred Beloit]

HR, I didn't think you would insult me, that was my attempt to make fun of the lying hombre who calls himself/herself GRG, this time anyway. I guess I didn't do it very well.

[Hard Right]

That's what I thought Fred. Just wanted you to know I think you're one of the good guys and you don't have to worry about me treating you like a leftard.

[Fred Beloit]

Ok, then I won't have to "affix my bayonet" as this guy inappropriately states.

[Just another reader]

Fred, if you're not looking for trouble, then why make "fun" of someone's nickname? Why make such an unneccesary insult?

IMO there is a BIG difference between mandatory gun ownership and just army personnel keeping their weapons at home! Also, the Swiss crime rates are not so different from most other European countries and those other countries have much stricter gun laws.

See, I can be civil. Why can't you?