Guns Down, Gun Crime Up In Britain

On the heels of a 1996 school shooting in Britain, they enacted some of the toughest gun restrictions anywhere. British Olympic shooters can't even practice in Britain. However, gun violence in Britain has continued to increase year by year.

It is delusion, however, to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results. In the aftermath of Dunblane, the passionate arguments for an all-out ban won the day, and would be hard to reverse now. It is a complete and effective restriction that has meant that our Olympic shooters can train only outside the country. Those, like Mick North, father of one of the dead girls, who continue to campaign against handguns, have set their face against any relaxation of the law and would like to see the sport of shooting banned from the Olympics. “What do people in Britain want — medals or murder?” he asks.

It is an understandable, if obsessional, reaction, but it has little to do with the real issue. The ban has had no discernible effect on gun crime, which has continued a steady rise dating back more than 25 years and which accounted for some 4,000 injuries in the UK last year. Immediately after the ban, the number of shootings actually went up and has stayed up, though the homicide rate, which is relatively low, has been almost unaffected. In Scotland, for instance, the rate of about eight killings a year by guns has remained the same despite the Dunblane ban.

Meanwhile Switzerland has compulsory gun ownership and despite one political-based attack, continues to have a low rate of violent crime. Food for thought from the TimesOnLine.

Nor does the widespread possession of arms necessarily indicate a violent society. In Switzerland, for instance, where owning a gun is mandatory and where the laws and traditions of the country require every able-bodied adult to keep a semi-automatic weapon at home, crime levels have been historically low — that is, until the horrific events of September 2001, when a deranged gunman broke into the local parliament at Zug, near Zurich, and shot dead 14 people, injuring 14 more, before shooting himself. Although the nation was, understandably, shocked, no one seriously argued that access to weapons was responsible for one inexplicable and insensate act.

Comments

[Raging_Dave]

"rapid fire handguns"?

Define "rapid fire" in concrete terms, please. It's a bullshit description.

All of this "OMG GUNS ARE BAD!" hysteria refuses to look at the cause of the problem: The personal actions of the criminals. Do you think that crimes will go away if guns magically disappeared?

Does a pencil cause mis-spellings?

Does a condom cause sex?

Do forks cause obesity?

Guns are inanimate objects, just like the objects I listed above. They are neither good nor evil. They do not jump up and hop around capping anyone. Blaming guns for violence is the refuge of a small minded person who cannot face reality and is looking to blame something that won't fight back.

[TomB]

"And that is from just ONE gun shop. Multiply that by all the gun shops and gun shows in the USA and you have a large number of homicides and suicides connected to guns."

And AGAIN I ask, what is your point? The ATF confirmed that the store did NOT break any laws selling the gun. So how do they figure into this in any way?

[charles]

why bob, i think you're on to something there

long live the nanny state! that's just what this country needs - more "authority" figures to tell us how to live our lives

after all they've proven themselves so just and wise, you'd have to be crazy not to want that!

[bloodrage bob]

and then, to make sure that students are perfectly safe at schools and universities, we should BAN guns from the campuses! even licensed, registered, trained, certified-by-the-almighty government guns! that way, you see, in the resultant "gun free zone", the students and faculty would be *perfectly safe all the time.*

if ONLY they'd done that at virginia tech...

[Hard Right]

"I would have to assume..."

Nova, one of your many mistakes. A pipe bomb is very easy to make and instructions can be found on the web or purchased in various books. FYI, a revolver can be fired even faster than a semi-auto. Rate of fire means nothing-so stop the "rapid fire" BS. Ther is more to firing a gun than just pulling a trigger. You sound as though you don't know much about firearms or like them in general. That's fine, but don't try to impinge on my right to own them.

Nova, you assume that all criminals get their guns from gun stores. You'd be wrong. So when you say to,"Multiply that by all the gun shops and gun shows..." you are way off the mark. The majority of firearms are stolen from law abiding owners. Cho is an exception, not the rule. BTW, define homicide. Were they murders, or rightful self defense shootings? You may think asking such a question is silly, but I've seen definitions played with by gun banners too often.
Example: 50,000 people were killed by guns in 1999. What they don't tell you is that some were police shootings, justifiable civilian shootings, accidental shootings, suicides, murders, and shootings where the person THOUGHT they were justified and found later not to be.

As for suicide, japan has a higher suicide rate than America does!

Remember the Hollywood Shhotout in CA? Remember the AK-47 one of the guys was using? It was smuggled into the U.S Illegally from MEXICO! We can't keep people or trucks full of drugs out of the country. So you think we can keep guns out?

Lastly, when has banning ANYTHING worked? Alcohol? Yup. I can't get beer anywhere. Drugs? Can't get that anywhere either. War? Yup that ban worked.

Nova, your belief that the innocent should be punished for the actions of a lunatic is repulsive and goes against all logic and reason.

[LOL]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

us #24
uk #46

with about a 1/3 as many

[gojoego]

How about murder's per capita with FIREARMS

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

#4 United States: 8,259

#20 United Kingdom: 62

[Hard Right]

#23 Switzerland 40 ooops. So much for the belief that guns cause crime.

[Northerner]

@ LOL and gojoego

Wasted effort, most of the people on this blog wouldn't know facts it they got bit in the ass by them. They just get a hardon from owning a gun and will kill anyone who tries to regulate or tries to imply that the US might not be on the right track on any subject. Charlton Heston fans, all of them.

Owning a gun must be like owning a big sports car or a pitbull terrier, your neighbours all know what you are trying to compensate for but you think you're pretty cool yourself.

But Kelvin is right, it is highly entertaining to read the 1700's-like opinions of some of the clodhoppers here.

[Buzzy]

There are two mindsets at odds in this situation. One would blame inanimate objects (guns, knives, pitchforks, hammers) and the other tends to blame people for their actions.

I think the answer lies in looking not at gun deaths but murders by all means. Fewer guns in a society only means that fewer guns will be involved in killings while other means, being more accessible, will be used more. I can tell you that dead is dead and murder is murder whether by handgun or sword, pitchfork or hammer, motor vehicle or bare hands.

Obviously I tend to blame people for what they do

[Hard Right]

shorter Northener: I haven't taken my Zyprexa and my irrational and emotionally based views get torn to shreds by people with facts and by reality. Whine, whine, whine.

[templar knight]

Uh, whoever, I would assume the murder rate would be the salient point, as I can't imagine that someone would be as concerned about the murder weapon as they would be about the actual murder. But that's just me. You libs seem to have an unnatural fear of firearms, and would prefer murders to be committed with axes, knives, and perhaps the most efficient of all non-firearm killers, the machete. I think a FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND were killed in Ruwanda by the "machete method". That kind of bogles the mind. Frankly, if I had a choice, I think I would take the bullet over the blade.

Frankly, after listening to LOL and the tin foil hat crowd, I thought the US must be NUMERO UNO on the murder list. I did notice that gojoe found a way to make the US look worse, although as I said earlier, what is his point? Murder is the point, not the weapon. Nice try, joe.

[Lala]

I think it's more humane to kill someone with a gun than by stabbing them to death with a knife or a machete. A bullet is quick, not like being drowned, strangled, or poisoned. Being burned alive must hurt a lot also. How about being bombed by a suicide bomber, that must hurt a lot.

[Hard Right]

Northerner, you're right. I'm compensating by owning a pekingese. I'm compensating by owing a 4cyl import. By owning a gun I'm compensating for an inability to defeat multiple attackers like Chuck Norris. Another cowardly post by Northerner.

BTW Northerner, how does it feel to have less testosterone than the majority of the women out there? If you liberal "males" were anymore feminine you'd be the ones getting pregnant.

[templar knight]

Northerner, you are one funny guy, probably a psychologist, what with all your knowledge of why people in the US own firearms. I've noticed lately that people from foreign countries are very nice and profuse with advice on how to make the US a better place. We really appreciate all the concern and kindness.

And your insights into our society, like, "...owning a firearm must be like owning a big sports car or a pitbull terrier...", and "They just get a hardon from owning a gun and will kill anyone who tries to regulate...", are nothing short of brilliant. You should text George Soros. I do believe he needs another hack, after all, there are never enough liberal hacks for liberal tastes, now are there? And being a foreigner, well, you have the experience of the American boot on your neck. Talking about first hand knowledge, wow, you are invaluable!

[bloodrage bob]

whoa! "northerner" is a MAN??

*dude*. boy, did i get THAT one wrong. perhaps i should have adjusted for the fact the "his" most effiminate speech & ideas are indicative of "his" admitted-to home, "europe".

home of those 15 badasses who recently got captured by 6 iranians; while refusing to fight back because "violence doesn't solve anything"; and then mewling like kittens on iranian TV, having been broken after *15 minutes* of stern interrogation; while their manly european "allies" responded to the threat by putting their hands in their pockets, jingling their coins, and whistling while looking away.

still, it's not like they were *total* pussies: europe DID bravely cancel iran's "buy one get one free" privileges for 20 entire minutes.

ain't that right, old "boy"?

[TomB]

Could one of the "enlighted ones" who laugh at our 1700 mentality, please tell me what they would do to solve this problem?

[Hard Right]

Ya know, I think Northerner is mad because American men HAVE penises! Being a liberal Euro meant he had to turn his in. So is "it" a man? Not anymore.

[Hard Right]

TomB, what they always say we should do. Surrender and then bend over for whoever wants to hurt us.

[Draegn]

There are many ways to kill a person without using a gun. See: Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom.

As for Britain; I hope that the BNP wins the next election.

[LOL]

i just pointed out facts, didn't say anything else. Sorry if they offend some of you.

I'm not even pro-gun control. I just wanted to point out that 1. UK's murder rate isn't as bad as Dan might like you to believe. 2. Widespread gun ownership doesn't necessitate a safer society. I don't think gun control/no control really seems to strongly affect murder rates. Here in Ohio murder rates have gone up substantially since the conceal-carry law, and as Dan points out you can find the reverse.

I do wish you guys wouldn't act like retarded children when I simply post FACTS.

[LOL]

"There are many ways to kill a person without using a gun. See: Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom."

"I can tell you that dead is dead and murder is murder whether by handgun or sword, pitchfork or hammer, motor vehicle or bare hands."

I'm tired of hearing this logic too.

Guys, if you're going to be anti-lib, at least do it with some intelligence. Let's see, sure you can commit murder with any number of things that's true. But it's probably very difficult to kill, oh say, 30 people in a half hour in a crowded school building. This logic applies to any rampage shooting.

[bloodrage bob]

it's even MORE "difficult to kill, oh say, 30 people in a half hour in a crowded school building", LOL, if some of them are armed and shooting back. wouldn't take many, really. just 1 or 2.

[GRG]

Hard Right, in fact he had documented mental illness. There was deep concern for his mental state over several years. If you google 'campus gun violence' the criteria for kids at risk to perpetrate these crimes read like his biography.

[GRG]

If anyone really thinks that the student population should be armed you are close to bordering on delusional. Data very clearly exists that says state by state, the states with the highest concentration of weapons has the highest suicide rate, the highest accidental gun kill rate, and the highest murder rate. Fact.

Secondly, if you think that the lethality of the weapon is not a factor (or the number of rounds per time unit)then do a mental experiment. How many people can you kill with a butcher knife in 30 min (and you could kill someone) versus how many can you kill with a Glock?

If you really wanted to argue the 'armed populace point' you would disarm everyone from guns then rearm them with pocket knives, or even more fun some old wild west derringers...

Lastly using a country like Switzerland as an example of an armed populace, what you're talking about is a militia with mandatory weapons. Do the Swiss give weapons to the mentally ill?

[GRG]

One thing I noticed is that it is hard to stick to the point. For instance pointing out machete killings in Rwanda is not pertinent to this point. If the Va Tech killer attacked with a machete, there would be far less carnage.

While it is true a gun is in itself not lethal, it is when the trigger is pulled. The efficiency of the lethality is an important point.

As an analogy, why are nations looking for nuclear disarmament. Lethality of the weapon. (I strayed from topic to make a point).

:-)

[tally]

"The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack."

[LOL]

sure bob, but kids like cho and the columbiners probably never even consider a rampage if they couldn't get access to those kinds of weapons. We could debate these fantasy outcomes all night. My only reason for posting in this thread was to point out Dan's disingenuousness. If we're to use Dan's logic of deaths being directly related to gun control laws, then one would have to conclude that strict gun laws, such as are in the UK are a good idea, considering the UK's murder ratio vs the US. But blahh... I don't feel strongly about gun control one way or another.

Secondly, just arming everyone is not going to create a non-violent world. You might avoid this precise situation, but it creates other problems.

And as a bonus, you cons definitely need to cut out the easily refutable arguments. If you're gonna be that lazy, just don't post, or say "LOL you're gay" or some other fond insult.

[Hard Right]

"Hard Right, in fact he had documented mental illness."

Yet because he checked himself in voluntarily, it wasn't on file where the NICS check could find it. As has been shown repeatedly by Switzerland and Israel, gun ownership is not the problem. Our attitudes towards violence and not doing something about dangerous and/or mentally ill people is.

Elementary school teachers in Israel are armed. Guess what? Even terrorists, who want to die and go to paradise no longer attack the schools. Why? Because they got killed before they could murder students. Repeated failures to murder innocents before getting killed made them look for easier prey. Madmen want easy, unarmed, defensless targets-something you lefties refuse to learn.

"Data very clearly exists that says state by state, the states with the highest concentration of weapons has the highest suicide rate, the highest accidental gun kill rate, and the highest murder rate. Fact."

You actually want to include suicide rates? Talk about BS. Look at Japan. No guns, higher suicide rate than the U.S. Ooops. As for the accidents, DUH! Why don't you post a link to prove what you say because I've seen numbers showing the exact opposite as far as murder goes. You also ignore how America has a NON-GUN murder rate higher than many Euro countries TOTAL murder rate. In other words, we are a violent country regardless of the weapons (if any) involved.

Here's a little info for you from 1999.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

"Secondly, if you think that the lethality of the weapon is not a factor (or the number of rounds per time unit)...How many people can you kill with a butcher knife... "

If you think a Glock is more lethal than a butcher knife, then you don't know what you are talking about. You incorrectly place more weight on what a bullet can do versus a blade. Quick FYI, I've never heard of anyone having their head cut off by a handgun. I'd rather be shot than attacked with a knife. As I told Nova, the number of bullets you can shoot in a short period of time means little. You think all that matters is the ability to pull the trigger. Again, you haven't a clue. If it was that simple everyone could shoot guns in a machine gun like manner and have nothing but bullseyes. As for semi auto versus revolver, I've seen guys fire revolvers empty and reload them faster than you can reload a semi-auto. Besides, he had 2 guns-the fastest "reload" you'll ever see. Something you negelect to mention is that he had to reload both guns multiple times. He would had to have done that with two revolvers too. Allegedly, he shot each person at least 3x each. That's 90 shots or more if true. Both guns combined don't hold anywhere near that many cartridges. Regardless of magazine capacity, had the students ganged up on him, they could have overwhelmed him. Yes, some would have been wounded and killed, but not 30.

As for banning, do you REALLY think people will just turn in their guns? The only way to even come remotely close to complete confiscation would involve illegal house to house searches. Also as I mentioned before, when has banning anything people have a high demand for worked? We can't keep people or truckloads of drugs out of the country. Yet you think we can keep guns out?

If you REALLY want to help, find ways to teach people that violence ISN'T cool or glamorous. Let people see the aftermath-the grieving, prison, those crippled and the financial costs.

[bloodrage bob]

LOL, what do folks from the left say when us rabid hardcore rightwingers say things like "seal the US border to stop the flood of wetbacks; then round up all the wetbacks here and send 'em home!"

how do y'all respond? every time? that's right: you say things like "look, there are just too many! there may be as many as *10 million* here! we can't send 'em back....it's just not practical to even think about it. get real!" right?

well, LOL, ....get real about weapons. there are....what?....more than *100 million* handguns here in the US right now. billions more overseas. if you somehow manage to get rid of them all; (even though you say - with wetbacks - that that's impossible); make them as illegal as....say.....as "cocaine", what do you think will happen?

when someone wants to go get some cocaine, despite 90 frickin' YEARS of ever-more-draconian "drug war" laws, (now *there's* a joke), is it hard for them to get it? no? and in a world where full-auto AK-47's go for 50 bucks in 3rd-world marketplaces, do you REALLY think we can keep them out of this country? and then somehow keep loons like cho/klebold et al from getting some?

if your answer is really, truly, "yes", then you're living in a fantasy world. even mkultra sees it: the world is what it is. we can either accept it and deal with reality, or we can wish away the problem. which didn't work so well at columbine. or virginia tech.

[bloodrage bob]

just as a final note to remind everyone who would prefer to be "protected" by the government-approved armed men.....

at virginia tech, **exactly as happened at columbine**, the cops didn't enter the building where the shooter was until *after he'd already shot him/themselves.*

cops are human, too. they don't want to get hurt any more than you or i do. on top of that, a MAJOR component of cop training instills a "better 10 civilians die before 1 cop does" attitude into them. it's why things happen like.....oh....like little ol' grandmaw ladies get gunned down by machine-gun-toting, body-armor-wearing SWAT teams. or unarmed poker players at the weekly $50 game get shot by machine-gun-toting, body-armor-wearing SWAT teams.

police groupies out there may take offense at this. to them, i ask: then why did the cops *hide from the shooter(s)* at 100% of the major school massacres of the last 10 years? so how again does 'letting the police handle it' help those on the scene?

[Hard Right]

Something that should also be mentioned is the number of lives firearms SAVE each year. It far exceeds what happened in VA. You anti-gunners would be condemning people to death just to make yourselves feel better.

[nova]

Templar Knight: You asked me a question(or two)so I will try to answer. It sure would not bother me if ALL handguns were banned in the USA. I would like to know what a handgun is good for EXCEPT shooting people. Or target practice. But since a complete ban on handguns is not going to happen I would like a law to limit the size of ammo clips. To answer someone else who wondered why the students didnt rush the killer. He had two guns. He was firing very fast. If you ran at him from a distance you would die for sure and so would anyone else who ran at him. He took less than 2 seconds to reload according to eyewitness accounts. This is also in answer to Hard Right who thinks that a butcher knife is as dangerous and 2 handguns and 90 rounds of ammo fired at close range. If the killer had come in with a butcher knife then obviously the students could have rushed him and overcome him.
To answer someone else I am well acquainted with guns. I grew up in Miss. and Texas back in the 1940s and 1950s and my father had plenty of guns. 12 gauge,16 gauge,45 handgun which he brought back from WW2. 22 rifles,both single shot and automatic...Remington and Marlin. 30-30 Winchester which he gave me. 410 double barrel. and I was a good shot because he taught me when we went duck hunting. I qualified sharpshooter in the Air Force and later I qualified sharpshooter with a handgun when I had to get licensed for a job in Maryland. However, my father was killed by a gun in Alaska in 1960. Since then I have had no use for guns. I dont like to be around them. As for the debate over gun control most likely it was the mental health system failures that is the real cause of this tragedy. So I guess if I had to I would blame it on all the weak mental health laws concerning those who are obviously mentally sick. So all you gun nuts you can keep your guns.

[templar knight]

Very sensible, nova, but the fact that you are familiar with guns also tells me that you realize how many more people could have been killed if this guy had a 12-gauge shotgun. Many, many more. But I certainly understand your feelings considering what happened to your dad. I'm truly sorry about that.

[GRG]

Hard Right:

You cannot continue with intellectually dishonest, and frankly intellectually ridiculous arguements:

"As has been shown repeatedly by Switzerland and Israel, gun ownership is not the problem." Do they give the mentally ill weapons in Switzerland? That is a spurious argument easily dismissed.

"If you think a Glock is more lethal than a butcher knife, then you don't know what you are talking about. "

Now I have to wonder if you are in junior high, and without the ability to actually reason. That statement is frankly tripe. Absurd on it's face.

Just because the facts do not support your argument, you cannot bring in some other facts. In the USA (which we are discussing) the simple irrefutable fact is the states with the highest gun ownership rate have the highest suicide, homicide, and accidental shooting rates.

Sorry, facts are facts.

[bloodrage bob]

...and illegal aliens are the cause of huge social costs; (none of which they pay, BTW); cause many many crimes and murders; and are generally degrading this country in instance after instance, GRG.

facts are facts!

so shall we ban them?

[GRG]

I am amazed at the ridiculous arguments being passed here:

1. 'A shotgun would be more lethal than a semi-automatic weapon.' While it is true a shotgun is a lethal weapon, think of firepower, range, ability to disguise the weapon, number of shells (or rounds). If this were true, why don't assault soldiers all load up their shotguns and move out?

2. 'This killer would have been stopped by an armed teacher and student body.' That is a simplistic comic book ideal of the world. So we cede the ability to determine life and death to anyone (nut) with a gun? That wild west shoot-em-outs will protect the population? That an 18 year-old in German class can coolly assess the situation, take out his weapon like a trained sniper and eliminate the semi-automatic threat. Dream on. Arguments will lead to shoot-em-ups; drunk college kids will shoot it out rather than fight (gee, ever seer a drunk college kid on Sat night?), and that teachers in the front of the class should pull out their weapon and lay it on the desk just in case the class nut goes berserk.

What a comic book solution. Thank god the irrational people proposing this solution are considered logically challenged, and ignored.

While I own weapons (the above mentioned shotguns) and have for 45 years, I would never advocate letting anyone strap on 6-shooters and ride their hoss into class. Frankly stupid. Hee Haw.

When a psychotic shooter goes berserk, the battle is half lost. If we could, the point would be to prevent that reality from happening. If there is a berserk shooter, then his typical behavior (which is somewhat a modern phenom) needs to be prepared for and dealt with. There are ways to deal with this situation other than every panicked kid pull out their own Glock to wipe out more kids in crossfires.

I would suggest that like the war mongers suggesting war as a solution to the world's problems WHO NEVER SERVED as combatants, non-police, and generally non-thinkers propose the wild-west shoot-out as the solution to predatory rampage shootings...if you have been in situations dealing with crazy violent people, you don't want to go back to Deadwood or Dodge City.

[bloodrage bob]

ahhhhh, the classic liberal attempt to restrain dialogue by limiting commentary to "those who..." blah blah blah.

so only soldiers can comment on iraq; only women can comment on abortion; and racism can only be commented upon by minorities. nice one, GRG. sure didn't see THAT coming! i especially liked the never-happened-yet fantasy scenario in which people are "wiped out on the crossfire" of the folks foolishly defending themselves from guys like cho.

and don't we hear that same tired old "deadwood and dodge city" whine whenever CCW laws are mentioned? breathless hysterical worries about "shootouts at stoplights"? none of which *ever* happens?

[TomB]

I'm still waiting for one of my betters to tell me exactly what should be done to stop this firearm violence. Please be specific.

And as far as killing many people without a gun, Cho could have gone to the local Agway, bought a few bags of AN fertilizer (it is planting time, after all), some fuel oil, mix it in a container in the back of his car, and BOOM.

For someone with imagination, killing is unfortunately easy.

[GRG]

Bloodrage Bob (nice name) what the heck are you saying? Your stuff just looks like incoherent ramblings to me. BTW, I am not a Liberal. I am a realist and a conservative.

And no I am not limiting discourse to a certain group. I am saying it is interesting that those who haven't faced situations in combat, or a person with lethal force, have really big mouths about how to solve it. I have faced these situations, and they are no fun. And I have seen psychotic people grab weapons to kill the owner of the weapon -- seen it twice in fact when colleagues/police were killed with their own weapon. I have seen many innocent people killed by psychotics.

Again you live in a dream world with this wild west solution. Ask any cop if he wants to see an armed populace. The number of police killings would increase exponentially (and let's not go to the Swiss example where they don't arm crazy people)

I am not against weapon ownership. I am against stupid comic book solutions to violence.

TomB: So you know FOR A FACT, Cho would have put together a bomb? I believe the FBI needs people like who who can predict the future. Call them immediately.

There is no doubt that guy was psychotic. And there is no doubt these people are dangerous. And there is no doubt it is challenging to stop them. But let's dispense with the cowboy solutions that work in comics or movies or someones mind. Get real.

[TomB]

"TomB: So you know FOR A FACT, Cho would have put together a bomb? I believe the FBI needs people like who who can predict the future. Call them immediately."

Where did I say that?

I'm saying he wanted to kill people. Some here have said it would have been difficult to obtain that death toll without a gun, I merely refuted that.

"There is no doubt that guy was psychotic. And there is no doubt these people are dangerous. And there is no doubt it is challenging to stop them. But let's dispense with the cowboy solutions that work in comics or movies or someones mind. Get real."

So you don't have a solution, but you are more than happy to take away my right to defend myself.

I realize this won't make a dent, but while it's hard to measure, guns are used anywhere between 500,000 and 2.5 million times to stop crime. So it isn't a "cowboy solutions that work in comics or movies or someones mind".

[GRG]

TomB, after throwing out that weasel statistic a bout how often weapons are used to stop a crime, can you site your source, or your study?

Again, I am not against weapon ownership within reason. However, I am against weasel citation of non-facts.

As for solutions, I would highly distrust anyone with a solution to rampage killings at this point. I am not sure anyone has the answer at this point.

[TomB]

I'd appreciate you address the first part of the post, where you stated:

"TomB: So you know FOR A FACT, Cho would have put together a bomb? I believe the FBI needs people like who who can predict the future. Call them immediately."

Please show me exactly where I made any kind of statement like that.

[bloodrage bob]

i highly doubt you're a realist, GBG. you're *certainly* no "conservative". how do i know this? let us use your own examples:

1) your breathless warnings about the carnage that'd occur should students shooting back at the next 'cho' somehow aim horribly wrong: "they'd be wiped out in the carnage". nowhere in the last 50 years has anything *remotely* like that happened anywhere outside any arab country. and yet you tossed it out first thing. REAL conservatives don't talk like that.
2) your equally breathless grim warnings about "deadwood and dodge city". insofar as these are the *exact same boogeyman trotted out by opponents of CCW*, (NONE of which ever come to pass), this makes your "conservative" claim a tad suspect.
3) the extremely liberal idea that only certain paople can have thoughts on certain situations. ("the warmongers suggesting war....who HAVE NEVER SERVED...") where've we seen THAT before?
4) your stubborn refusal to address the fact that unarmed students have no chance whatsoever against an armed psycho; and THE COPS EITHER SHOW UP TOO LATE OR HIDE UNTIL IT'S ALL OVER. just like they also did at columbine, BTW.

"conservative". heh. why lie, GBG? why do you feel the need to do that? are you ashamed or something?

[TomB]

Heh. Bob, GRG seems to be big on making things up. I bring up one scenario where Cho could have killed people and he accuses me of trying to predict the future. Yet when discussing concealed carry, he predicts old west style shootouts, despite the fact CC has been the law in many states for a decade.

He can't even predict the past!

[Hard Right]

Nova and GRG, you don't have a clue. Your comment about the knife and rushing the attacker proves it. Experience with firearms isn't the same thing as understanding what happens in lethal force situations.

There were multiple times where Cho wasn't very far from his victims. You would have us believe they just couldn't overwhelm him and create a silly story about attacking him from a distance. BTW, if you are less than 30 feet from someone you are 1.5 seconds or less from them. Google Tueller drill to see. He took 2 seconds or less to reload. I've seen folks at the range with revolvers conducting speed loads that quickly or faster. BTW, your father was killed by accident or BY SOMEONE WITH a gun-NOT BY A GUN. And yes, I'm sorry it happened. I don't wish that kind of loss on you.

As for the knife, you only prove I know more than you. In it's range a knife is every bit as deadly (if not more) as a handgun. Plus, it doesn't run out of ammo. Let's examine the knife wounds, shall we? A bullet makes a hole and crushes and tears its way thru tissue. The hole it makes can only be so big in diameter. A knife blade cuts. So, with a twist of the wrist the wound can be significantly enlarged. In fact, the wound can be much larger than one any hangun bullet can make. Say someone is stabbed in the stomach, with the sweep of an arm they can be disemboweled. Nicole Simpson was almost decapitated by OJ. He cut almost entirely through her neck-including the spinal column. Only a flap of skin held her head to the body. There are several lethal force experts who would agree with me (massad Ayoob for one) about how deadly knives are. So please educate yourselves before critcizing.

GRG, I asked you to show proof, and you didn't. That tells me you are going more off emotions or the materials of anti-gun groups-NOT facts. Your desire for it to be true does mean it is. You further show your stupidity with your straw man arguments.

You claim people want all the students armed. No one has said that. They said if more students had been armed or a teacher or several had been armed. Armed teachers have stopped at least two wannabe Columbines from happening.
You then go on to say 18 year olds couldn't handle the situation. Yup, that's why the military only takes people 30 years old and older, huh? FYI, did you know many civilian firearms owners are better trained in regards to firearms than many police officers? I know, you didn't have a clue.
GRG, again you think rapid fire ability trumps everything. The fact you think that (and a few other things) makes me question your firearms ownership claim.
As for the shotgun, you think a folding stock-pump shotgun with 18in barrel is too hard to conceal? Yeah, you sure know firearms. BTW, they are using shotguns in Iraq when they clear houses-and not just to blow locks. You actually bring up the range limitations of shotguns when the shooting took place inside a building? That has what to do with the issue? He was shooting students mostly at close range-not 100+ yards away.

"So we cede the ability to determine life and death to anyone (nut) with a gun?"

We do with cars. Cars kill more people than guns even though more people own guns than cars.
This brings me to the drunken students etc. claim you made. Many 18-25 year old college students have guns. How many shootings do we have by them? Not many. Again, prove more guns means more crime or stop making the claim.

"That wild west shoot-em-outs will protect the population?..."
Taken directly from the gun banners quote/play books. Wildly exaggerate what would happen to show more guns is actually a bad idea.

If you actually own guns, then you are probably one of those people that thinks ONLY HE is qualified to do so.

[Hard Right]

I see I'm not the only one who thinks GRG sounds like a Brady brochure.

[bloodrage bob]

i agree, HR. nothing worse than a lefty trying to act like something he/she's not. how can you respect that?

while i disagree with all lefties, i can respect the intellectually honest ones: there's probably no bigger LWinger anywhere than alexander cockburn, but he's certainly got my respect: fiercely smart; fights fair; massive intellectual honesty. mickey kaus also comes to mind; as does jon stewart, even.

and i can even understand folks like sarah brady. while she's *wrong*, she's following her (misguided) heart, and she says what she really believes. right up front from the git-go. the same can hold true for out-and-out nutjobs like cynthia mckinney, or zifnab, even.

but spouting out chapter-n-verse brady center propaganda? all the while claiming to be "conservative", and darkly implying cop/military experience? ("i have faced these [grim and scary] situations") sheeeeit.

[nova]

Hard Right: April 20th is the 8th anniversary of Columbine. They did not use knives. Cho did not use knives. You are dreaming if you think he could have killed 32 people with a knife.
The students did not overcome him because they could not. Simple as that. If they could have they would have.
You would have been ducking under a desk or jumping out a window or barracading a door just like all these people did.
Oh, I can just see you running toward Cho to overcome him.

[TomB]

"Oh, I can just see you running toward Cho to overcome him"

Snark on this nova:

Kip Kinkel

"He left his mother's car outside the school and carried a backpack filled with ammunition. He entered the hallway and fired two shots, one fatally wounding Ben Walker and the other wounding Ryan Atteberry. Kinkel then entered the cafeteria and, walking across the cafeteria, fired the remaining 48 rounds from the 50-round magazine in his rifle, wounding 24 students and killing one by the name of Mikeal Nicholauson."

"When his rifle ran out of ammunition and Kinkel began to reload, wounded student Jake Ryker tackled Kinkel, who attempted to kill Ryker with the Glock. He only managed to fire one shot before Ryker knocked the gun out of his hand. More students, including Jake's brother Josh, helped restrain Kinkel until the police arrived and arrested him."