Guns Down, Gun Crime Up In Britain

On the heels of a 1996 school shooting in Britain, they enacted some of the toughest gun restrictions anywhere. British Olympic shooters can't even practice in Britain. However, gun violence in Britain has continued to increase year by year.

It is delusion, however, to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results. In the aftermath of Dunblane, the passionate arguments for an all-out ban won the day, and would be hard to reverse now. It is a complete and effective restriction that has meant that our Olympic shooters can train only outside the country. Those, like Mick North, father of one of the dead girls, who continue to campaign against handguns, have set their face against any relaxation of the law and would like to see the sport of shooting banned from the Olympics. “What do people in Britain want — medals or murder?” he asks.

It is an understandable, if obsessional, reaction, but it has little to do with the real issue. The ban has had no discernible effect on gun crime, which has continued a steady rise dating back more than 25 years and which accounted for some 4,000 injuries in the UK last year. Immediately after the ban, the number of shootings actually went up and has stayed up, though the homicide rate, which is relatively low, has been almost unaffected. In Scotland, for instance, the rate of about eight killings a year by guns has remained the same despite the Dunblane ban.

Meanwhile Switzerland has compulsory gun ownership and despite one political-based attack, continues to have a low rate of violent crime. Food for thought from the TimesOnLine.

Nor does the widespread possession of arms necessarily indicate a violent society. In Switzerland, for instance, where owning a gun is mandatory and where the laws and traditions of the country require every able-bodied adult to keep a semi-automatic weapon at home, crime levels have been historically low — that is, until the horrific events of September 2001, when a deranged gunman broke into the local parliament at Zug, near Zurich, and shot dead 14 people, injuring 14 more, before shooting himself. Although the nation was, understandably, shocked, no one seriously argued that access to weapons was responsible for one inexplicable and insensate act.

Comments

[ze]

Dan
In the UK it is 50/50 as to whether they would/would not prefer guns.

What is not 50/50 is the fact that where America leads Britain follows...this has been known for some time.

[the liberals]

this news is most distressing. while we shall make sure our media refuses to cover or even *mention* this dreadful news, there might still be leaks.

you are therefore ordered to never mention it ever again.

[ze]

Sorry, the liberals
Even before I left the UK '94, the comment was "only in America".
Unfortunately, it isn't "only in America" now.

I love each place I have visited, and each place has a unique way of being.

Different cultures, many of which we may not be comfortable with.

Send your children to as many countries as you can...see the difference.

[ze]

Our children are our world.

[ze]

WE are the perpertrators.
Until we stop teaching our children how WE hate, our children will carry on our legacy.

[bloodrage bob]

another fact not oft mentioned by "the liberals" and their pet media is the fact that swingin' london - hell, the whole damn UK - is in the midst of a crime wave that's setting world records. it MIGHT be news, of course, except for that whole "liberal news blackout" thing, and the fact the bobbies are lying their arsses orff about it. i think the odds of a "hot burglary" (homeowner home during the crime) are something like 20 times more likely to happen in fair britania than the bad ol' US. in FACT, london crime is (reluctantly) admitted to being WORSE than crime in NYC back in the '70's, which is saying.....quite something.

thank god for that gun control, huh? shoot, without that, crime would be *really* bad! no.....wait a second!!....

still, they ARE the world leaders in traffic cameras, since traffic "offenders" are much less confrontational and scary than the blokes infesting toxteth and bristol and all the rest.

on a related note, when do you good people think the MSM will finally get around to reporting the absolute *epidemic* of rapes being committed in europe; specifically against white eurpeen gals; specifically by moslem non-european 1st or 2nd generation immigrants/parasites? (there are whispers of rapes being up 600, 700, even 800%) will they tell us about it soon, do you think? (but hey, don't take MY word for it: google "malmo, sweden", and "rapes" and see what pops up. or "oslo". or "stockholm". etc etc)

[Lala]

I get my Great Britain crime news from "The Policeman's Blog" at http://coppersblog.blogspot.com/

[nowinger]

I may be wrong, but weren't there like 50 gun deaths in all of England last year, compared to 500 gun deaths in New York City alone?

I tend to wonder if the 'increase' in gun violence in Britain isn't still a miniscule part of overall crime, especially when compared to here in the US.

[nova]

50 gun deaths a year. We had 32 in one day in Virginia.
When the Rolling Stones first came to this country in 1964 they were shocked to read in the newspapers of San Antonio that 8 people had been killed by guns in one weekend in San Antonio. At that time they had about 8 gun death a year in England.
Here in the USA we have a dangerous cocktail of available guns and almost no mental health services for mentally ill young people. A kid shot up a police station here in Northern Va. recently killing some of the police. He came from the same high school that Cho went to. He also was obviously a mental case. I heard that Cho was depressed. Mostly likely on some powerful psychoactive medication. Police had been called on this guy more than once for harassing female students. They came to the dorm and took him away. I dont see how the police and the VT could have dont a worse job in this case if they tried. This guy was a problem on that campus for over two years and nothing was done about it. Several professors refused to have him in their class. Expelling a student does not solve the problem if he is still in the school. And expelling him doesnt solve his problem either.

[nova]

Here is the latest.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

[ojay]

fuck you

[southdakotaboy]

The MSM has to hide the true facts about things over in Europe if they ever want the American people to fall for the lib program. If the American people knew the reality of Europe we would be protesting in the streets to bring our troops home from the quagmire.
I don't know if any of you read the blog "Gates of Vienna" but they have been talking about how there has been a huge upswing in native ethnic Europeans leaving to go to Australia, New Zealand and the USA this is related to the surge in crime and the lack of proper response to it.
It will be interesting to watch and see if the Europeans do something to curtail this mass migration of their young proffessional workers in order to keep the system propped up.

[Hard Right]

What lefties want you to believe is that guns cause violence. What the problem is, is how we glorify violence and our attitudes about it. Take a look at the movies out right now. How many of them are violent? How many shows or movies accurately show the aftermath or consequences of violence? As Switzerland shows, it's the attitude that makes a difference, not the right to own fireams.

[nova]

Violence is everywhere. All over the world. But this like Columbine shows the amount of damage fast firing guns can do. If he had no gun what would he have done?

[Hard Right]

Nova, do you think he wouldn't have used explosives instead? Minds like his can easily conjure up other methods of mass murder.
The cops screwed up. They said the murder of his first two victims was a muder suicide...even though no weapon was found. Rather than increase police presence on the campus and lock things down, they went on a wild goose chase.
Lastly, punishing the law abiding for the acts of a nut is hardly the way to handle things. If you want to live free, than some risk will have to expected. Don't take away my right to decide just because you are too scared.

[southdakotaboy]

Once you start taking things away it is very hard to get those rights back again. Look at what is happening over in Britain. They took away peoples right to own handguns and now they are trying to regulate the ownership of knives, I kid you not, knives. Violent people will kill. Not to long ago we had a mass murder in this country who was killing people with a hammer. For that matter most mass murders don't use guns anyway its not personal enough for them. We need to get beyond this kneejerk reaction to ban guns. I myself think we need to get rid of all those violent video games that teach kids how to clear a room of "targets" in order to score points.

[GRG]

You reference to The Times Online led me to this piece too: http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2007/04/from_columbine_.html

Both are thoughtful.

As a 'liberal' I believe automatic weapons control is needed. However as pointed out here, that is a bandaid.

There is not a perfect answer to depressed, psychotic and obsessive persons causing mayhem in a free society. However, societies like Sweden where gun crime is low, should be examined for partial solutions.

[Hard Right]

GRG, when you say automatic, do you mean machine guns? Because THAT is what an automatic is. They are very, very, regulated.

What you mean is a semi-auto, which is often wrongly called an auto. The primary advantage a SA handgun tends to have over a revolver is cartridge holding capacity. In some cases not even that. So when you say that they should be regulated, I strongly disagree as they are allready regulated.

The guy had no criminal record, or documented history of mental illness. So why should anyone who meets that criteria be denied? The shooter was a nut, but I should be penalized? As I said elsewhere, the guns aren't the problem. The problems are people's view on violence in this country.

[Kelvin]

Sweden? Do you think these backward jackasses on here even know where Sweden is? Do you know what site you are on? These geniuses think that there is no global warming, that we are winning in Iraq (amazing, huh) and that there should be more guns to combat violence. I would suggest you just sit back and let the backwoods oracles post their drivel. It's highly entertaining!

[Doc]

If just 1/100 of the students/faculty had been packing heat, I bet the death toll would have been far lower. I hear that Israel maintains faculty with weapons at schools at all times and their rates of such attacks are far lower. My son is at college. I would love for him to have a concealed-carry permit; I hope he seeks one before his college decides to 'protect' the students.

Mental health facilities, while I'm sure staffed with fine people with great intentions, are unlikely to have much of an effect on someone bent on killing himself and taking a large number with him.

The 2nd amendment was not about hunting, nor even about personal protection from violent crime. It was primarily about preventing the gov't from being able to oppress the citizenry. Therefore, even if more restrictive gun laws would lead to lower death rates (which those whose judgement I have reason to respect say is unlikely), I would still oppose changing the Constitution so as to limit arms ownership. BTW, the Constitution doesn't say what KIND of arms the people may have; it just says 'arms'. Semi, fully-auto, howitzer (private individuals owned cannons at the time of the Rev War), machs nix; per the Constitution, NO limit may be imposed by Congress on citizens of good standing. That we have fallen so far as to tolerate the SCOTUS claiming that limits are permitted shows how little knowledge of the Constitution we have as a people.

[Kelvin]

See what I mean. The flat-earther above supports the sale of howitzers and machine guns to people. These people should have their own tv show. Priceless!

[charles]

kelvin in stamford

why are leftists constantly telling people what to do or think?

instead of allowing people to read the posts here and formulate their own opinions - you're going to tell them what their opinions should be

i'm also always amazed at the clairvoyance of the left - i've never seen a larger number of people claiming to know what others thoughts are

why are you so afraid of differing opinions?

[Kelvin]

Lighten up, Chuck! No one is afraid of anything, except you of Astoria - but lets not go there again.

Why not go home and feed the goat and relax?

[southdakotaboy]

In Kelvin's world the people would all be like Sandra Bollock in DEMOLITION MAN. Only happy happy joy joy feelings would be allowed. If you ever want to see what the lefts version of utopia is just watch that movie and listen to how the culture works. It is really kind of scary.

[Kelvin]

What the hell is Demolition Man? Who watches Sandra Bullock movies? It that what's playing at the movie house in SD?

[charles]

oh, i see - in other words you've got nothing except a juvenile attempt at insulting someone who can't be insulted by such obvious stupidity

my bad for having anticipated anything but - your game is weak and ineffectual

but carry on, it is a written example of sorts

[Kelvin]

Oh, you're insulted all right. Last time you wanted to beat me up or something. Talk about juvenile...

What a tool.

[charles]

" Last time you wanted to beat me up or something"

tsk, tsk - i think you are getting your personas confused

you are not clever enough to be a sockpuppeteer

i suggest rather than putting words in my mouth, that you quote me

i'll save you some time here - you can't because i never did anything of the sort

why are you so focused days later over a conversation that charles and "kelvin" never had?

curious,,,,

i barely await your next inane reply - but go ahead, you just can't help yourself

[tally]

The criminal, Cho, didn't care that Virginia Tech was a gun free zone. If he had not had a gun, no problem - - he would have just used a homemade bomb. The guy was hell bent and determined to do harm.

[Fred Beloit]

ZerodegreesKelin/BoobinStamford, since there is no Islamist threat to the U.S. according to you and Ziffy, I suppose you support closing down the entire Homeland Security organization? It would sure make your trips to London more convenient.

[southdakotaboy]

Kelvin lives in the moment hence his idea that movies have to be playing in movie theaters in order to exist. Let me let you in on a secret Kelvin, when someone leaves the room they still exist, one something happens it exists in the past and you can remember it and talk about it later and everything. You can even use things from the past to talk about something today and people will understand you, see how that works.

[charles]

oh snap! game, set, match

i wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply fred

run, run for the hills little moonbat, you can always sign back in as "bob in kelvin in victor in stamford"

but they'll get troll hammered as well

because i only need to quote you to make you look foolish, obviously you are incapable of replying in kind

and just to rub it in, another fine example of the moonbats' claim to clairvoyance

"Oh, you're insulted all right" oh, i don't think so

instead of losing arguments with people you admit you hate, on a site that you admit you hate, i suggest you take all that wasted energy and start your own psychic hotline

your juvenile attempt at charlatanism could be more effectual in that spurious persuit

[Hard Right]

OMG, I found LBiS personal web page (or not)!

http://www.gaylonghair.com/longhairs/?revans

[nova]

Hard Right. To answer your question since Cho is linked to the previous bomb threats and was found dead with another bomb threat I would have to assume he did not know how to make a bomb. Only how to make a bomb threat. What other instruments of massive death besides hand guns he could of come up with I do not know. I did hear on the noon news that the gun shop where he bought his gun in Roanoke has now been linked to the selling of five guns linked to homicides. How is that for a track record?

[charles]

nova

since you believe an inanimate object is to blame for commiting an atrocity to humanity, rather than the actions of a highly disturbed individual, i'm going to assume that your other assumptions are just as faulty

IOW - got a valid point yet?

[Capitalist Infidel]

How typical of a constitution hating leftist, blame the gun store.

[nova]

Charles: It was the combination of an inanimate object(a rapid fire gun)and a highly disturbed individual. Can you understand that? If not I will assume your ability to reason is faulty.
Yes I blame the gun store for selling instruments of death.

[southdakotaboy]

Hey Nova he could have used a car at a crowded intersection. Or he could have used the chains he was carrying to lock emergency exits and set fire to the building. Both of the these things were done in the not to distant past. One was an old man who should not have been driving and the other was a jealous boyfriend. When a nut job wants to kill people there are many many ways they can get the job done.

[charles]

it takes a certain amount of bravery and moral awareness to live in a truly free society

if you want to be a pillow biter, be my guest - just don't lay your totalitarian persuit of utopian
perfection on me

i'm willing to take certain risks in order to remain living in freedom

maybe we should ban beer and cars in order to prevent further dui fatalities?

yes, lets shut down the liquor stores they sell double plus badness

[Kelvin]

Run away? Some of us have jobs. Maybe if you worked a little harder you could have done better than the outer boroughs and not have been scared away by goats and muslims.

[TomB]

Nova:

"To answer your question since Cho is linked to the previous bomb threats and was found dead with another bomb threat I would have to assume he did not know how to make a bomb. Only how to make a bomb threat."

Go to Agway. Buy a bunch of bag of AN fertilizer. Buy fuel oil. Mix. Bomb.

Its easily found on the internet.

You don't even need a background check.

"What other instruments of massive death besides hand guns he could of come up with I do not know."

Use your imagination. Fire, poison, explosives, car.

The list is almost endless. But for some reason, these shootings get more attention.

"I did hear on the noon news that the gun shop where he bought his gun in Roanoke has now been linked to the selling of five guns linked to homicides. How is that for a track record?"

How about a link to that assertion? However, since the ATF has said that the purchase was legal, what is your point?

[charles]

there you go again

another small dropping of something from riehl worlds'favorite phone psychic

you're one heck of a mind reader kelvin, it's amazing the things you see from your parents basement

are you also a legend in that empty cavern that you perceive as a cranium?

*excuse me dan, next time you're at the troll store how about quality instead of quantity? thanks*

[Kelvin]

My parents basement? Where, in Stamford?? Wrong again, Columbo.

What a dope.

[nova]

TomB. Here you can read it. That gun shop linked to 4 other homicides and 2 suicides. Instruments of death is my point.
http://abc26.trb.com/news/la-na-main18apr18,0,7510909.story?coll=wgno-news-1

[TomB]

Instruments of death is my point.

And I already said the ATF confirmed the sale was legal. If you are going to slander the shop owner, there should be a reason.

And I'll spare everyone the need of clicking the link. What nova left out is "interesting":

"The shop owner, John Markell, 58, told reporters that in eight years of running the store he estimates that he has sold about 16,000 guns. Of those, four have been used in homicides and two in suicides."

[southdakotaboy]

Nova suicides don't count becuase the person was intent on taking their own life. If it had not been a gun they would have done something else. As far as them being instruments of death so are knives, cars, ropes, baseballbats, axes, chainsaws you name you can kill with it.

[nova]

TomB: And that is from just ONE gun shop. Multiply that by all the gun shops and gun shows in the USA and you have a large number of homicides and suicides connected to guns.
I read also that Mexico recently pointed out that many of the guns used in gun deaths in Mexico come from?????????????????????????you guessed it. The USA.

[Kelvin]

In fairness to the gun shop owner 4 out of 16,000 is a VERY low percentage. Of course, that doesn't take into account any crimes other than murders.

[bloodrage bob]

you liberals CAN'T really be this stupid, can you?

if "banning" something would actually work, how about we *ban* auto accidents? wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? save 50,000 lives a year?

how 'bout we *ban* illegal aliens? we'll just pass a BAN, see, and then they'll just automatically stop coming. this is great! we'll ban bad movies! ban old people from driving too slow, or holding up the line while they fish pennies out of their coin purses! to make things easier for the parents of babies, we'll ban babies from pooping in their diapers! we'll make them use the toilet from the get-go! of course!! and organized crime? and gangs?? **BAN** 'em!!!!!!!!

damn! why didn't anyone think of this stuff *before*?!?

[templar knight]

Nova, I have a question, actualy, more than one question. What gun laws would you like to see enacted? Are you for the outright banning of the private ownership of firearms? The guy broke several laws by bringing handguns to the VTU campus, so why would he obey another law? Or should the onus be on other people to prevent his obtaining the means to kill others? As difficult as this is, think about the OKC bombing. These guys committed mass murder by using simple chemicals available anywhere. I understand there are other bombs that can be easily made with instructions fresh from the internets. Terrorists around the world seem to be able to kill scores, and even hundreds of people, with car bombs. Or so I hear on the All Iraq All the Time News Networks.

But when I look around on the news channels, it's not guns made in the US that I see involved in most of the killings in the world, but those based on the Soviet AK-47, made in just about every third-world country in the world, and passed out by the GOVERNMENTS of the world. I doubt whether the private sale of firearms in the US has very much of an impact on the arms markets of the world.

But if US gun stores are selling guns that end up in any large numbers in Mexico, then that would be breaking several laws, and I think the ATF would be all over it. But if you have proof of that, then by all means turn the lawbreakers in, they deserve to be punished.