Selling Out The Troops

That's precisely what the liberal and Blue Dog Democrats have done in one of the most disgraceful moves ever taken by an American Congress. Plenty from Michelle at link.

"Here are some examples of what the Democrats consider 'urgent' needs that require 'prompt action: '
-- $25 million for payments to spinach producers
-- $120 million to the shrimp industry
-- $74 million for peanut storage
-- $5 million for shellfish, oyster and clam producers

"Spinach, shrimp, peanuts and shellfish? That's not a war funding bill, that's the salad bar at Denny's."

There will be hell to pay for Blue Dog Dems over this. Their previous positions and the pork it took for them to sell out our fighting men and women are a matter of public record. If they think they can escape being held accountable, I'd wager they don't understand their districts well enough and are buying into Pelosi's rhetoric, as well as our taking our tax dollars in a bribing scheme designed to damage the morale of our troops while at war.

What a monumental disgrace. Bush has already strongly vowed to veto the Bill as he should Video at Hot Air.

Texas Rainmaker is blogging on it, too.

Comments

[Hard Right]

Blue Dogs? You mean yellow dogs like the vast majority of Dems.

[yyy]

Yada yada yada.

The Republican controlled Congress was a disgrace. All they did was change the rules to ensure the minority could not be heard and vote for programs full of pork and nothing but pork.

I've got news for ya, if there isn't any improvement in the situtation by 2008, which would be 6 YEARS on the ground, then no improvement is going to come from having boots on the ground.

Your rhetoric is old and tired. The military leaders on the ground in Iraq NEVER wanted the surge, they all argued against it, saying more troops wasn't the answer. But, the petty tyrant in the White House stamped his foot, so angry that every expert in ME policy or fighting wars was against his stupid vision, and did it anyway.

BushCo and the Republican Congress are the traitors.

I wouldn't expect to get your majority back in Congress any time soon.

We can only hope that the rest of the disgraced Republican crooks follow Tom DeLay's lead and write whiny books where they refuse to take responsibility for their crimes.

PS...I got more news for you nutters. Rudy Guliani is NOT a winger. He may be highly enamoured of executive power, but he's also competant and grounded in the real world. No mayor of New York City could ever succeed on platitudes and PR, he has to have policies that succeed.

If you think a Guiliani win is going to deliver the country back into the hands of the neocons and evangelical nut jobs you are sadly mistaken.

[Hard Right]

What's old and tired is your pessimism, stupidity, and defeatism. YOU are exactly what the terrorists depend on. They know you haven't the stomach for ANY real fighting. They know they cannot beat us militarily and have aimed their propaganda at you. YOU are their greatest asset, just like you were in Vietnam. Congrats on selling out our country and military-AGAIN.

[Zifnab]

$224 million? That's not even the cost of an Alaskan bridge project.

But you're right, there is some pork in the bill that needs to go.

http://mccain.senate.gov/press_office/view_article.cfm?id=368
"A vote on this amendment will provide an answer to the American taxpayer as to whether - $98 million for an agricultural facility in Ames, Iowa; $50 million for
Title XI loan guarantees for a broken program in dire need of reform; $500,000 for sea lamprey control in Lake Champlain; $225,000 for the Mental Health
Association of Tarrant County, Ft. Worth, Texas to provide school-based mental health education to schools in Tarrant County; $200,000 for the AIDS research
Institute at the University of California, San Francisco; and $1,000,000 for the Geisinger Health System, Harrisburg, PA to establish centers of excellence for the
treatment of autism - are what is needed to win the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq today."

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=867029&C=commentary
"The bill that the Senate passed on April 21 was crammed with essential war-fighting treasures like $500,000 to study wind energy in North and South Dakota, $20 million for a fish hatchery in Fort Peck, Mont., $26 million to move nuclear materials out of New Mexico into Nevada, and $4 million for West Virginia’s Upper Tygart Watershed Project.
But the bill was not routine. It signaled the Senate’s descent to new depths, for these measures were not added to the annual defense authorizations and appropriations bills, but to a so-called emergency supplemental. Worse, some of these irrelevant items actually were included at the expense of legitimate military operational needs."

Oh... wait... those were the '03 and '05 supplementals. Mercy me, it seems like the Republicans have been playing fast and loose with pork since this war started and... and suddenly... now that the Dems control Congress... the President just can't bring himself to sign a hundred billion dollar bill because the Dems put pork in it! Mercy me. Did Dear Leader convert to Islam while we weren't looking? I've never seen a politician do such a quick 180 on hog.

Please, I totally invite you to bring up pork barrell spending. Heck, I dare you. Dan, let's take this as far as it will go. Bring. It. On.

[Telly]

Did I miss something or did Bush and Friends lose the war in Iraq years ago? Hang it up cons, party over.

[JammieWearingFool]

I've got news for ya, 2008 would be 5 YEARS on the ground.

[Hard Right]

BTW, keep skipping your Aricept and thinking your victory in 08 is a given.

[Hard Right]

Telly, being a liberal tells us you miss most everything-especially if it involves thinking.

[yyy]

Our OWN GENERALS SAY THAT VICTORY CANNOT BE ACHIEVED BY MILITARY MEANS!

Read it again. Our own military has said that long term peace in Iraq must come from a political solution not a military one.

Now, I realize that anyone who disagrees with your winger philosophy of 'kill all the Arabs' is considered a traitor, but why don't you read some of the editorials that are written by former military???????????

Oh wait, I know the answer, because it doens' fit the winger idea of 'victory' at all costs...if only we could get rid of all rules of engagements and kill everyone we would 'win'.

Now that it has become public that gates, you know him, the new Secretary of Defense, wanted to close Gitmo, does that make him a traitor too???

[Telly]

Oh ok, so you guys WON? That would explain the carrier landing and the Mission Accomplished banner. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Hard Right]

YYY, Telly, you just don't get it and I'm not going to since you don't have the brain power.

[Telly]

"you just don't get it and I'm not going to since you don't have the brain power."

Translation: I have no answer for that and it bothers me.

[Jamie]

yyy, you have a fan club.

Keep on poking those neo-cons with a strong blue stick.

Jamie

[Hard Right]

I have an answer, but you just aren't smart enough to understand it.

Strong blue stick. (roll eyes)

[yyy]

Right, you actually have great information and reasons to disagree with either my statement that the military leaders in Iraq never asked for more troops/that the vast majority of retired military leaders and military strategists all say that the solution in Iraq is more than military OR to disagree with the conclusion of these military experts, but, you know, you can't be bothered.

Alrighty then.

You 'know' that the only way to 'win' in Iraq is by boots on the ground, and you don't 'need' to prove it. You just know it. Kind of like Bush knows he's talking to god and god is talking back him, like.

[Buzzy]

Looks like the DEMs are just the same pork swilling do nothings as the Republicans they hate so much. How much did the deficit go up due to this pork laden bill. So they funded the war, even funded the surge and stuffed a ton and a half of pork into the bill to boot. I am so impressed, you all should be ashamed.

The left needs to watch and take heed. Old growth conservatives stayed home last November rejecting porkers just like you guys are turning out to be. If you're going to have a base in '08 you had better act better than the do nothing Republican congress you replaced. That's my tax dollars you're wasting too.

[southdakotaboy]

pelosi had code pink arrested. This is gonna cause some problems. It also shows the Dems leaderships true colors. I don't think that the ar left is going to take this laying down. I can't wait until the riots start. Let the left burndown their own houses and wreck their own cities to show how much they hate violence. There is the possibility that this whole thing could spell the death of the Dems as a party. Lets just wait and see if the far far left starts to run their own national candidates.

[yyy]

Once upon a time, in the days of the Republic, before the evil Empire, there was a magical land called America. America was an ingenious system of checks and balanced designed to ensure no one group of officials could exercise unfettered power and that the tyranny of the majority would never fully marginalize the minority. In America's golden age it was a meritocracy, where one's innate talents and abilities could lead to success. It also lived by a strict code of personal morality and personal responsibility. Citizens who let their families, employers and government down through corruption, crime, incompetance or immorality were punished informally and formally. Over time, America saw a coursening of its culture, and the traditional values of freedom and responsibility were overtaken by the twin evils of entitlement and personal greed. Great institutions that once protected all Americans ceased to function. The population turned to shopping and reality TV as its opiate. Public servants, who once took their oath to protect the country and serve the public seriously, no longer cared about performance of their duties. They sought only re-election. In the waning days of the Republic 'wedge issues' were invented. The wedge issues further diverted officials and the public from the pressing needs of the country. Finally, as the country's economy, military and infrastructure lay in ruins after years of neglect, foolish wars and ceaseless lies and propaganda the public stopped caring and stopped expecting anything good to happen, it was then that Republic died and the Empire was born, although as in Rome, the traditions and institutions of the old Republic carried on for many decades after they had ceased to be effective.

[Zifnab]

"That's my tax dollars you're wasting too."

Do you have a problem with the Bush veto or don't you, Buzzy? What comes first? War or pork reform. Because, if we pull our troops up now, we can spend the next 18 months talking about the latter. It's up to the Republicans.

[Jeff]

As Zifnab rightly pointed out Republicans went way over on pork, and they paid dearly for it. Now Democrats are doing the same, Rahm Emmanuel better be thinking of a good way to explain this. The thing is Dems promised to make pork more transparent. And its working! For the Republicans though. Democrats never learn from their mistakes, and they seldom keep promises. And the band played on Dems!

And the part about the Blue Dogs is very true. They are the dems lifeblood right now, they would not have won the election if it wasn't for them, now many Blue Dogs will lose their spot. Let the red torrent sweep them!

If the vote was legitimate (votes weren't bought) I think that the President would have had no choice but to sign the bill, but now its a disgrace... it looks horrible on those Blue Dogs who seemed honest and true to themselves, but eveyone has a price (Republicans do too) and Pelosi, was willing buy them... the deal with the Devil huh?

[Jeff]

Y cubed, that was so well put. It was one of the stupidest things I ever read, but nicely worded. Why don't you go to your meritocracy - Sweden. You would get along well there.

[Zifnab]

"If the vote was legitimate (votes weren't bought) I think that the President would have had no choice but to sign the bill, but now its a disgrace... it looks horrible on those Blue Dogs who seemed honest and true to themselves, but eveyone has a price (Republicans do too) and Pelosi, was willing buy them... the deal with the Devil huh?"

We'll see how the bill does in the Senate and we'll see if the pork survives. Of course, if the Senate trims the fat and Bush still bouncies it, I've got a nice big pot of crow waiting for you Jeff.

[yyy]

I would prefer Switzerland actually, they're arrogant and mean, but rich and neutral. Nobody fucks with the bankers. But, I'm pretty sure Swiss immigration laws are such that I wouldn't stand a chance getting in:)

[seekeronos]

"I wouldn't expect to get your majority back in Congress any time soon."

Heh. Just keep cutting the ground out from underneath the soldiers and their families, and see how far that gets y'all in 2008.

Be the shortest Dhimmicrat House majority. Ever.

[seekeronos]

"I would prefer Switzerland actually, they're arrogant and mean, but rich and neutral. Nobody f***s with the bankers."

Actually, it is less because they are bankers, than it is that every Swiss is armed to the teeth and well trained in the use of their weapons. It was Reason #1 Hitler never put tiny li'l Switzerland on his list of nations to conquer.

As for Sweden or Norway, they are practically dhimmi states now, from news I hear of Muslim gangs having free reign to rape and rob people at will in Oslo, Stockholm and Goteborg.

[Zifnab]

"Heh. Just keep cutting the ground out from underneath the soldiers and their families, and see how far that gets y'all in 2008.

Be the shortest Dhimmicrat House majority. Ever."

Dude, were you asleep during the entire Walter Reed scandal?

[yyy]

Yeah, how EVIL of the Democrats to want benchmarks instead of press release lies on the Iraq war. How EVIL of them to appropriate several billion dollars in a war that none of them believe in and expect to see some reasonable progress by the fall of 2008.

If BushCo can't meet the modest goals set out by the Dem proposal then they should admit that Iraq is, was, and will be a clusterfuck for the forseeable future.

But not to worry, the uniter is already playing politics and saying he will veto it.

Because what he wants is NO OVERSIGHT, NO BENCHMARKS, he wants everyone to shut up and stop criticizing his failed war.

He's had four years. Where are the counterinsurgency troops? Oh yeah, we didn't bother training them in any greater numbers because we've been TURNING THE CORNER for four fucking years.

[Hard Right]

You mean benchmarks like Bush said he was for?

[seekeronos]

The counterinsurgency troops are being trained and fielded.

Schools are being built... services are being restored. And enemies are being captured and/or put out of commission. The corner has been turned, and had we the assurance of knowing that the military was fully financed to achieve its missions, we could walk away from the past FIVE years knowing that something positive has been accomplished.

If only some of you lousy Islamist sympathizers would take a few minutes from your daily routine of aiding and abetting the enemy, you'd see that real progress is being made on the ground. And since some of y'all seem to be so tirelessly working for Al-Qaeda and Hamas and CAIR...

I reckon many of you libtards are having a big pot party over this supposed "victory" over teh "Big Evil Bush Guy".

Fah. Enjoy your veto, and enjoy watching our soldiers getting blow to hell and back and not have anything to answer back. I must imagine a more than a few of you are cuing up those Jihadist videos that infest al-Youtube these days, just giggling with delight at the sight of our brother Americans being cut down by a suicide bomber or an IED.

Thanks for nothing, and thanks a bunch for essentially guaranteeing our failure.

[yyy]

Like I said before, 'against the war=terrorist sympathizer' rhethoric is PLAYED. You tried it in the November elections, remember the adds of the missles coming toward America and the line that a vote for the Democrats is a vote for the terrorists?? I do. It didn't work. No one but the wingers believe that being against the pathetic 'war' means you hate the troops or approve of terrorism. If that is the best talking point you wingers have then you should call it a day.

Unless we are prepared to occupy Iraq with 150,000 troops for 10 or 20 years we're going to have to leave some time. They will eventually stand or fall on their own. I believe they will fall, but either way, we can't stay there forever unless we radically again change the rationale for going over there in the first place. The Iraqis are free of Saddam. The fact that they're killing each other and our troops shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. To me, wanting our troops to stay in harms way indefinitely simply because you are in full denial that the invasion was a poor strategy even more poorly executed is the height of selfishness. A bunch of wingers at home want to pound their chests and show them A-Rabs whose boss.

BushCo has been in charge of the war with ZERO input from Congress for 4 years. That has given us 3000 dead soldiers, 500 billion spent, billions 'lost' due to fraud or to physically losing track of plane loads of cash, the Walter Reed fiasco, lack of $$ for training, lack of field equipment and so on.

It is well past time for the grownups to come in and exert some oversight.

[BobinStamford]

"thanks a bunch for essentially guaranteeing our failure."

Thanks are in order to your idiot leader and Rummy. Remember, you go to war with the army you have. Be strong, patriots, the defeat is almost complete.

[Purple Avenger]

Hey, Nancy's going to finally deliver on getting me that pony! Cool.

[Zifnab]

Seeker, buy a clue. The schools are being built by contractors who half-ass it at every turn. As are the police stations, hospitals, and the rest of the government infrastructure. The percent of Iraqis who are totally cool with shooting US soldiers just capped the 51% mark. Billions of dollars have literally evaporated in the desert, last being seen in the hands of White House cronies, while Bush drones on about funding the troops.

Back on the homefront, the veteran's health system is a trainwreck, soldiers are being shipped out with expectation of "on-the-job" training, and even the war-wounded are being rounded back up into service.

Meanwhile, deficits continue to top 9 digits a year (which, btw, is considered a "success" in curtailing spending), the economy is vomitting up on a collapsing housing market, and NO is still a squalid piss-heap.

You are not winning the war.

[yyy]

Since the wingers claim to be pro-big business and all about the market forces...if we use a business analogy, Bush is the CEO, he's been cooking the books with false achievements and estimates in each of the last 4 annual reports. Congress is the Board of Directors. He's had a majority of board members in his pocket, so they turned a blind eye to his misdeeds. The public are the shareholders. The shareholders finally got wind of the CEO's malfeasance and the board's complicity. They pushed for the ouster of several board members and a new board is now trying to clean up the mess created by the out of control CEO while protecting the value of the share, that would be America's hard and soft power all over the world.

Nevermind that all we've heard from the wingers is 'where's the plan' 'all you do is criticize, cry, cry cry' and now there is a plan, and lo and behold, the Democrats weren't supposed to have a plan, that is 'micromanaging' the war.

As in business and life, when you mismanage things to a horrendous degree, someone, be in your family, the police or the Congress is going to come along and start micromanaging things in order to fix what you've broken. That's life in the real world. Actions have consequences.

[Zifnab]

Oh, hey look, I think we found a place to make up part of that $225 million in pork.

" The three Democrats on the Federal Election Commission revealed yesterday that they strongly believe President Bush exceeded legal spending limits during the 2004 presidential contest and that his campaign owes the government $40 million.

Their concerns spilled out during a vote to approve an audit of the Bush campaign’s finances, which is conducted to make sure the campaign adhered to spending rules after accepting $74.6 million in public money for the 2004 general election.

The conflict apparently arose behind the scenes, but the FEC’s audit of the Bush/Cheney 2004 campaign reportedly divided commissioners. “We had a disagreement on this audit, and it was a doozy,” said one of the Democrats, Commissioner Ellen L. Weintraub.

At $40 million, I should say so.

What happened that allowed Bush’s campaign to exceed spending limits by so much? It took a degree of Enron-like accounting — and some help from Bush’s buddies.

The campaign spent $80 million on television ads it labeled “hybrid” ads — they promoted the president’s bid for a second term, but also included references to Republican congressional candidates. By throwing in House and Senate candidates, the Bush gang made up its own rule — the ads were only half about the president’s campaign, so it meant the aides decided only half of the costs counted for financing purposes. (The RNC reported the other half.)

This was particularly egregious because Bush participated in the public-financing system — after his convention, the president and his campaign team accepted the $74.6 million in public funds for the general election. If they’d played it straight, those “hybrid” ads that touted the president in key states/districts nationwide would never have run."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10301.html

[yyy]

No surprise there.

Once the moronic criminal is out of office I expect there to be one huge scandal after another, no matter who is in the White House. Again, I remind you that Rudy is not a winger and for that matter neither is McCain.

[bloodrage bob]

judging from the ol' graph count, y3 seems to be upset that these stupid ignernt neocons won't listen to her drug-addled, childlike "explanations" of liberal "logic" showing why the world will interpret the most recent display of democrat cowardice and perfidy as *strength and honor*. (2 words almost NEVER associated with the democrat party, btw)

she - again, judging by the ever-lengthening posts -seems to be a tad upset by this. "how can you horrible people be so obtuse??", she wails.

coming from the woman who "answers" difficult & uncomfortable questions ("why are the same people who say 'if you don't like abortions, don't have one' unwilling to apply that exact same standard to handguns? isn't that gross hypocrisy on the part of the liberals?")(the answer, of course, is "yes, it is"), by changing the subject....("that bush is so stupid! we need to get out of iraq before we do what we set out to do there!"). this is, shall we say, this is just a little bit ironic.

[yyy]

We already did 'what we set out to do'

Get rid of his WMD...well, he didn't have any.
Get rid of his nukes program, ditto, he didn't have any.
Regime change. Saddam is dead, check.
"Free" the Iraq people, check. They're free, free to kill each other to their heart's desire.

So, by our own standard, we accomplished our goals quite some time ago. Hey, maybe that Mission Accomplished banner wasn't wrong afterall.

As far as guns, I am not a hypocrite you moron. I am a staunch supporter of the right to bear arms. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one.

Do wingers EVER, EVER try to make a point without at least one lie?

[seekeronos]

And what comes of us now that the Islamists know that we can be "attritioned down" and that we will toss up our arms in surrender to Dhimmi status if the blood price be made steep enough?

Had our forefathers thought the same way, we would all be speaking either German or Japanese by now.

[Scrapiron]

I checked the roll call for the votes. Now if my democrat representative ever crosses the street in front of me I have an immediate decision to make. Actually he had better keep his life insurance up to date or the wife he married to cover up the fact he is a homosexual will have to live on her 'reporter' earnings. Why do two people who everyone knows are homosexuals go into a pretend marriage? Cowards that don't practice what they preach and they don't support the homosexuals in public either.

[Jeff]

"Of course, if the Senate trims the fat and Bush still bouncies it, I've got a nice big pot of crow waiting for you Jeff."

You are aware that people voted for the bill with the pork in it right? Let's see the bill with no pork pass the House... Not well thought out. Votes were bought in House using pork, if the pork gets removed after the fact, who cares. They voted for the pork stupid!

[Jeff]

"Had our forefathers thought the same way, we would all be speaking either German or Japanese by now."

It goes down to laziness, there is no doubt that we keep getting lazier. Social security was made to get the through the depression, and instead it got expanded too much. No one has to pay for anything now. The buck gets passed round and round... It has been proved that Conservatives give more percentage wise to charity, volunteer more, and give time to their country more...
Liberals just don't want to deal with anything. And when forced to deal with something, they exert all to its destruction (abortion, the war, terrorism) a kind of nihilistic paradox.

[Jeff]

I meant to say Islamization of America, not terrorism. What would cause a Freudian slip like that?

[Phoenix]

I don't have a thing to add except to laugh at Y's understanding of Swiss immigration policies. :) They'd probably cringe at "American" on the application, but if you could convince them you weren't part of the government now or at any time in your life ('you' understood), they might let you in before you die. What a country!

And, Zif - the deficit is going down faster than expected AND monies coming in from productivity and corporate taxes are double the deficit. I read that in a liberal publication this week. Nothing like low taxes and increased capitalism. Just think - even in a time of war.

We need a presence in the ME. If that presence is in the shape of a democratic Iraq, nothing could be better for us or for the surrounding countries. The very truth of that is portrayed in the desperation of our enemy.

[BobinStamford]

"Now if my democrat representative ever crosses the street in front of me I have an immediate decision to make"

Hey Roy, you need to settle down and not make crazy threats on the internet. Go out for a walk in Abingdon and look for bin Laden or duct tape your trailer or something in case the evil-doers come looking for you.

Typical con loser.

[LOL]

seekeronos -- your analogy doesn't hold water. Our forefather's wars had drafts and tax increases. The moment you serve I'll start to believe your rhetoric.

[Buzzy]

"Do you have a problem with the Bush veto or don't you, Buzzy? What comes first? War or pork reform. Because, if we pull our troops up now, we can spend the next 18 months talking about the latter. It's up to the Republicans."
Posted by: Zifnab | Friday, March 23, 2007 at 04:17 PM

What's up to the Republicans? It's the DEMs that fully funded the war till August (or is it September) 2008? What's more they wrote Bush in an "out" clause that says he can stay even longer if he's hunting al Qaeda. It's the DEMs that put tons of pork into the bill thus raising the national deficit. You guys have a majority in the House, much much more than you have in the Senate.

I just think it's wonderful that Pelosi and crew finally saw the light and are now "for the war". This went much more smoothly for Bush than it ever did under the Republican majority Congress.

[Purple Avenger]

"The schools are being built by contractors who half-ass it at every turn. As are the police stations, hospitals, and the rest of the government infrastructure."

Here's a clue - the same half-assing" happens here in the USA with contractors. Last year I worked on the electrical for the additional new buildings at Liberty Park Elementary in Lake Worth FL. The main new classroom building was 6" too long and 3" off level from one side to the other. That 3" difference would have put the drop ceilings somewhere in the middle of windows had the electricians, plumbers, and HVAC guys not adjusted accordingly.

The drywall contractors always screw up the electrical stuff, bury boxes, shoot screws into the interior of them, remove straps from stuff, yank on conduits like they're handles or swing sets, etc.

I counted over 50 electric code violations in my own house (which was bought new in 89') before I stopped counting as I went through the process of rewiring it up to current code specs. 3 of those could have been fatal under the right circumstances.

If you think American construction standards are something to be proud of, you've never been involved in a construction project.

[seekeronos]

Typical tax-and-spend Democrat liberal policy... or "can't get 218 dhimmicrats to agre on anything, so buy them with gobs of pork"? You be the judge.

Hey "LOL" (lollipop?) : I have indeed served, and I reckon I'd still be in service if not for a medical disability that disqualified me from global mobility. But thanks for asking.

[ET]

Hey Dems --

Meet your new boss.

Same as the old boss.

Not even your fearful leaders are crazy enough to make any substantative changes to our war policy. They used an anti-war platform to get votes, then voted to fund the war wil a pork laden bill. they are typical politicians...more concerned about retaining their fiefdoms than anything else. and now they are confronted with the reality that prevailing in Iraq is our best strategy.

Next time you suggest that your team is superior to mine, acknowledge the fact that you are either an idiot or a liar. The dems are impotent. Voters will give them the boot in '08.