Good Grief, Chill Out

She Just Can't Help It
Ann Coulter just labeled John Edwards' campaign manager a terrorist supporter.

IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO DIVERT BONIOR FROM HIS PRINCIPAL PASTIME WHICH IS FRONTING FOR ARAB TERRORISTS.
I've got a screen capture as well, should the comment disappear.

There's good grief and bad grief and this Coulter affair is starting to be bad grief. No offense to Confederate Yankee, but a screen capture? Why? Or, why on earth would, or should she delete it? That's hardly the type of snarkish but pointed political rhetoric one wants to start running around the Internet policing.

I had my say on Coulter and a development or two along the way, but yesterday's melodramatic group hug around a rather pretentious letter was as annoying to me as can be Coulter at times.

Some of the individuals who appear to aspire to be parents for the blogosphere, or college Republicans, or maybe Coulter herself, need to grow up and climb down off their high horses. There are few things in life more alienating than someone preaching to you when you haven't given them the job.

Conservatives should champion free expression. And when we encounter unpleasant or inappropriate speech, as was Coulter's faggot remark delivered at CPAC, as it was, we're correct to denounce it and make our thoughts known. But there comes a time to move on. That time is past.

I understand the concept behind not wanting to be tarred with the same brush as a Coulter when she goes over the top, as she sometimes does. But no one can do that to another, or to a movement, unless they accept it themselves.

If one wants to engage in what they might define as only a high level of political discourse, great, so do it. That's who and what people will judge you to be in the end. Unfortunately, if some are going to waste their time running around telling people they do it and why, and why everyone else needs to do it, as well, the majority of adults capable of thinking for themselves are ultimately going to tune you out. And it occurs to me that that's what all this silliness around Coulter is about preventing in the first place.

Sometimes you don't need a Michael Moore or a George Soros to say, move on. That's my bit of wishful thinking for now.

Comments

[Phoenix]

Fred,

Meant nothing demeaning to you at all. You make such logical debate that I found that particular remark surprising because it does cover just about anyone in a position to influence others. Not just Jesus. The 'jumping to conclusions' doesn't have a part in a statement like that. That's all.

I meant no insult.

[seekeronos]

As I figured, you entirely missed my points.

Who are we to contend with God? _We_ are the ones at fault, not Him. Pinning the cause of our faults on Him, and not squarely on ourselves where it belongs... is nothing but a cheap cop-out.

And God is the one who reaches out to us tenderly and with mercy:

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". (Romans 5:8, KJV)

What part of that do you not understand?

[Hard Right]

The only one pushing BUllSHIT is you. Muslims conquering half of Spain isn't significant? The Muslims were going to continue invading until stopped. France was next on the menu. They saw this and that is why they launched the Crusades.
The modern equivalent would be a country hostile to America invading Mexico and gradually working it's way towards our border. So don't tell me it wasn't defensive.

Here's some maps that show the continuing Muslim expansion.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/islam1map.gif

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/islam2map.gif

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~bvon/images/map3.gif

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~bvon/images/map4.gif

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/spain.jpg

[yyy]

What I understand is that the two points of view are contradictory and cannot be rationalized in any logical manner.

The 'god' of the old testement condones genocide, slavery, rape and blood sacrifice. There is no getting around it. No getting around the passages where the victorious israelites are given directions on taking women from the defeated side if they were 'pleasing' to them. No getting around the story of the concubine sent out to be gang raped to death to protect the other houseguests..and don't bother giving me the rationale as being that it was the players themselves who are mto blame, when the 'hero' of your story sends his concubine out to be raped and die, he is not a hero. No getting around that slavery and polygamy were the way of life at the time, and according to the old testement they were sanctified by god, just like killing innocent Egyptians in response to something the Pharioh did.

I do not believe that the Old Testement is the word of god, period. The New Testiment is another matter, and I would concede that christ could indeed have been a divinely inspired prophet, but he was not the 'son' of god in anything but a metaphoric sense, in that we are all children of god. I don't believe christ was born of a virgin, that his corpse and not his spirit was reanimated or that he will 'come again' in the literal sense of the rapture. Nope. That isn't true and it isn't even what he meant. Why don't you try the Gospel of Tom and learn something.

[Raging_Dave]

"The muslims never conquered 'large parts' of Europe, they held small parts of Eastern Europe and Spain for quite some time."

I just burst out laughing at that statement. Spain is a "small part of Europe"? You need to educate yourself, child. Muslim control extended all the way to Budapest and beyond. Istanbul did used to be Constantinople, you know.

And you wonder why we never take you seriously......

[Raging_Dave]

Oh, and we all get it: You and Christianity don't get along. That's evident in the way you have ignored everything said by seekeronos, and constantly attempt to argue against something you evidently have no clue about.

You are a living, breathing stereotype, and you're not doing yourself any favors.

[Phoenix]

I wonder what this planet would be like if there was no religion.

[Fred Beloit]

Oh Phoenix, never thought you were being rough on me, at the time I just remembered one of the beatitudes, meekness: The meek shall inherit the earth, I believe it goes.

[seekeronos]

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (John 11:25, KJV)

Pheonix:

Here's a kicker. Jesus hates "religion".

Jesus is after our hearts, and desires us to walk with Him. Man's attempts at "religion" is just our feeble attempts to try and make our own way to God (without Christ).

It has been said that the Gospel is so simple, that most people will miss it by 18 inches: that is the rough distance between one's head, and their heart.

"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:5-6, KJV)

[Jeff]

If you don't think that the Muslims were driving into Europe as Mohamed commanded them to, well, look at a map of the Caliphate.

France was close, Italy was close...

I don't think that the Crusades were OK, but for some reason the other side of the story (the atrocities that the Muslims caused) has been silenced.

I get it yyy: We all need to leave Christianity and bow to Allah the great and noble. I half wonder if yyy is an Islamic fundamentalist trying to convert everyone to Islam. If so, please warn me before your peaceful religion cuts my head off for not agreeing with it.

[Hard Right]

If you don't think that the Muslims were driving into Europe as Mohamed commanded them to, well, look at a map of the Caliphate.

Exactly. You can see what land the muslims held before Mohamed. Then you see how that land grows and grows AFTER Mohamed. YYY wants us to think it's just an optical illusion and that Crusaders striking at the heart of the Muslim empire is somehow proof it wasn't defensive. Next he'll want to us to believe up is down.

[yyy]

half wonder if yyy is an Islamic fundamentalist trying to convert everyone to Islam.
----------------------------

Go fuck yourself flat earther.

[Jeff]

I'll take that as a yes.

[yyy]

I don't agree that the Old Testiment is the word of god or that Jesus would approve of the roads taken by the christian church and so I MUST BE advocating Islam, and radical islam at that.

What a bunch of fucktards you are.

Monotheistic religion is one of the worst things to happen to mankind. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all on equal footing in terms of barbaric acts done in the name of god.

[yyy]

I'll take that as a yes.

-------------------------------

Really. With morons like you championing the cause of the ring wing nutters only more glorious victories in the name of baby jesus and the unborn are sure to follow.

You couldn't even find any post of mine EVER that said anything positive about Islam, other than refuting the nutter claim that Islam is a religion of hate. Islam is no better or worse than Christianity or Judaism.

[Jeff]

"Judaism"

What!?!? What have the Jews done that is anything like the Crusades, or 9/11. I am not Jewish, but I know an outlandish statement when I hear one.

And you are right, you didn't say anything good about Islam, but you also didn't trash it like you did Christianity, and now, Judaism.

Alright, I was out of line saying you were a fundamentalist... I doubt you are at this point, you are just a Muslim apologist.

[yyy]

Okay, let me trash Islam for you...its evolved to about where Christianity was in the middle ages, a pathetic echo of what it coulda/shoulda been..its positive regard for the family, respect, even love eclipsed by the crazy leaders and their perverted view of what Muhammend meant. Saudi Arabia is a posterchild for what's wrong with Islam, the only difference is SA is run by a bunch of degraded 'princes' as opposed to the ayatollahs running it themselves, it is even more corrupt than Iran. Egypt? Pakistan? Our 'allies' and good muslims, happily oppressing and torturing their own people, turning a blind eye to things that should curl your hair.

Granted, modern judaism has been remarkably peaceful, and other than the Israeli rightwing nuts, modern jews are much more tolerant than their christian and islamic brothers, but the Old Testement is a catalog of the jewish people and their willingness to condemn and enslave their neighbors. Also, as the only jewish state, Israel is not exactly a perfect model.

[Hard Right]

Well having seen the Koran the Muslims get and not the whitewashed ones printed here, I can tell you haven't read the Koran. There are many, many commands to do violence in Islam's name. It's not a matter of "extremists" distorting it's teachings. They ARE following it's teachings. The apostates as they are called are the Muslims NOT trying to kill infidels.

YYY, you're just another ideological bigot.

[yyy]

Yes, just like there are commandments in the Old Testement to kill, rape and enslave.

You appear to assume that jews and christians are able to differentiate between the parts of their archaic 'holy' books that are not applicable to today's world but the muslims are not. That would seem the definition of bigotry to me.

The last muslims to do any invading of the west were the Ottoman Turks and if you think they were doing it in for Allah and not empire, nothing is going to change your mind.

If what you say is true then the overwhelming majority of muslims would be actively engaged in trying to kill the infidels. While I concede you may be a frothing at the mouth lunatic, only a lunatic would believe that there are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of muslims actively planning, supporting or carrying out attacks against the infidels.

Thus, reality itself seems to show your premise to be an error.

It is a small majority of muslims that are actively engaged in attacking the infidels. That's reality.

[Jeff]

No one else answer except yyy:

"Yes, just like there are commandments in the Old Testement to kill, rape and enslav"

here is your chance to prove yourself. Scripture and verse, show me one instance of the Bible saying to rape, and to enslave (I won't say to kill, since Abraham was told to kill his son, and God commanded armies in battles (but it wasn't battles to force people into conversion)).

So one example of God commanding rape, and one example of God commanding enslavement.

[yyy]

Bllod sacrifice:

More to come

Leviticus 17:11, For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 4:3-5 If the priest that is anointed do sin...then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering....he shall... lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation...

[yyy]

Slavery:

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)

[yyy]

Rape:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Deuteronomy 20:14"But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself"

[Jeff]

"The last muslims to do any invading of the west were the Ottoman Turks and if you think they were doing it in for Allah and not empire, nothing is going to change your mind."

Yes they were doing it for the Empire. But what happens when the Ottomans take you land and you are not Muslim (or worse, a Jew). You either give up your home and everything you own (and maybe your daughter as a type of repairation, for not already being Muslim), or they will cut your head off. So, yes the conquest was for the King and country, but remember how late the enlightenment reached the Ottomans (well, as of 1919 when it was ended, the enlightment hadn't reached them). People still believed that religion was number one, and the the Emporer, or King was God's chosen one... so yeah, you're pretty much wrong about everything religion or historical...

And no one is saying that hundreds of millions of Muslims are terrorists, not even tens of millions, not even millions... however in Canada out of 800,000 Muslims 10% (80,000) believe that the palnned terrorist attack (killing the PM and blowing up the Parliament) was justified (this accord to the CBC). Now I lived in Canada, in a town that could be described no other way than overrun with Muslim immigrants. Our population went from 5% Sri Lankan, to 40% Sri Lankan (this is Cornwall, Ontario), and I was in college, and went back to visit some friends the day after the would-be terrorists were killed... we cut through one of the slums to get to a restaurant, and all we here is, "get out of our country pigs!" It was scary as heck, and me and my friend didn't hang out long enough to find out what was going to happen... but we decided to balls up and go back, just to prove that we were macho or something. And the same apartment said, "get away, get away, we have guns." So this time we actually ran. What could this mean? We were just walking through a Muslim slum and we get threatened. now my friend's dad is a cop with the OPP and he said that they can't get police to go into those projects, because they get threatened, and they are outgunned... they were told by a local Muslim leader that if they went in, the islamists consider their land Holy and Sovereign (I'd imagine Shari'a law was in effect)... basically a non-Muslim was liable to be shot, stabbed, or anything else... So I;m getting to this, the Muslims are getting more dangerous, and they are attempting to take land, one block at a time. There may not be millions of terrorists, but my experience with someone who I consider a terrorist is enough for me to think that just 10% of Muslims being terrorists is a terrible and scary though. And 10% is a great number...

Lest I keep rambling...

[yyy]

Death to those who work on the sabbath:

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.
Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

[yyy]

Murder of innocents

Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)

[yyy]

Murder, rape and slavery all in one place...shall I continue or have you had enough?

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho."

"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

[yyy]

Genocide:

During this period, Joshua destroyed all the descendants of Anak, who lived in the hill country of Hebron, Debir, Anab, and the entire hill country of Judah and Israel. He killed them all and completely destroyed their towns. Not one was left in all the land of Israel, though some still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. So Joshua took control of the entire land, just as the LORD had instructed Moses. He gave it to the people of Israel as their special possession, dividing the land among the tribes. So the land finally had rest from war. (Joshua 11:21-23 NLT)

[yyy]

War:

Then the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, "Take from my hand this cup filled to the brim with my anger, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger, crazed by the warfare I will send against them."

[yyy]

More rape:

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.

[yyy]

And some more rape:

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

[Jeff]

Great a bunch of OT stuff, that was not commanded, rather it was mostly to do with going to war... Let me show you that OT law does not apply anymore, and you show me where the New Law says that stuff (I should have been clearer)

This is from Matt 22

37And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets

It differs vastly from OT law... I don't see how killing a non-believer fits into this.

[Jeff]

Wow, I;d think you had your scripture all lined up and ready for me to ask... I guess I took the bait...

[yyy]

I never said the new testament had anything about condoning murder, rape and slavery, it does to a degree, but the main points are very different.

What I said was the god of the old testament supported and in fact, encouraged rape, murder and slavery of non believers and I have posted several verses that prove it.

When the verse has god talking and commanding the Israelites to do something I would say that counts as an explicit and implicit approval of murder, rape, slavery and genocide.

[yyy]

And if you further believe the bible and the old testament are the literal world of god, then when anyone in the old testament says god told me to kill, rape, enslave x,y,z people you have to bellieve that is exactly what happened.

I don't know why you chose to ask for proof of soemthing that is undeniable. Of course there are all kinds of intellectual games that people play to 'prove' or 'explain' why god is alleged to have done, demanded or condoned things that to the modern reader would be considered atrocities.....just the same kind of intellectual nonsense that "st" augustine engaged in when he decided out of the blue that original sin was sex, and that all sex was a sin....he was nothing more than a self hating nut who could have benefited from some significant time on Dr. freud's chair.

I wouldnt' be caught dead walking through a poor, islamic neighborhood in any country of the world, with the possible exception of this one. Its also a known fact that the muslims living in France and to a lesser degree England are a law unto themselves...murdering and raping their own women who displease them.

I am equal opportunity. I'm against rape, murder, plunder, wars of choice, wars of profit, torture, terror, intolerance and hypocracy from all sides.

[Sean Hackbarth]

As an instigator and signer of the letter there was no attempt at preening. We didn't claim to be "parents for the blogosphere." We clearly stated we don't want conservatism stained by Coulter caring more about her (bad) comedy than about the movement. The movement is more than Ann. She doesn't think so. She chooses to use it to promote "Coulterism." If she wants to do that she can go to her own CPAC--Coulter's Political Action Conference.

We signers didn't say Coulter couldn't say whatever she wants. She just doesn't need to do it on stage at CPAC. We're as much champions of free expression as anyone. We're webloggers! We epitomized free expression. We also know we're responsible for our words.

Coulter has damaged the discourse. We've come a long way from Bill Buckley at his prime. Coulter could do better because she is so intelligent. She chooses not to.

[Dan Riehl]

As an instigator and signer of the letter

I didn't say you were preening. And you're conflating my reaction to some posts I've seen since, with the letter.

[Phoenix]

Another planet wouldn't be far enough away from WFB. What a windbag.

[Phoenix]

Jeff,

Give YYY some credit for backing up what s/he says. S/he's been coming to the blog for a long time, and always gives back-up - unlike the present gang of rude dogs who resort to insult when they are challenged on their vapid expostulations.

Hat's off to you for today, YYY.

[Dan Riehl]

When you get to Revelations yyy, I'm going to nuke your ass ... and your little comments, too.

[Jeff]

I'm giving him credit, you are right... Actually hats off, yyy to not resorting to attacking me. I feel like I was baited, and took it hook, line, and sinker... but hey, it makes him (yyy) a good debater.

Thanks, for getting me in line Pheonix! ;)