Resolving The Spitting Debate

There's a growing blog debate going on as regards peace activists spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam era. It begins here at Slate in an article claiming the charges are false.

The myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran refuses to die.

At Volokh, Jim Lindgren points out some weaknesses in search mechanisms that could lead to the stories not showing up in contemporaneous reports, leading to the assumption that it didn't happen.

Always up for a Google challenge, I decided to take a look and can confirm that spitting and more did in fact take place. Stored on a government server found via advanced Google, there's this first person account - also available in pdf.

As a young Marine officer Carl Bourne was trying to help recruit University of
Connecticut students into the USMC. Some UConn students responded by spitting at him and throwing ink on his dress uniform, Bourne said about his experience on the Storrs campus.

Bourne was the target of spitting and ink throwing in 1973. As a lieutenant he paid for his uniforms, so the ink was not a welcome alteration, especially considering the low pay of the early 1970s. He said he was also called a "baby killer" – right in his own home state.

Another instance is documented in a government fact sheet.

The Legacy of Psychological Trauma from the Vietnam War for American Indian Military Personnel

"I was spit on and called a baby-killer in the mainstream culture when I first came home, and no way any college would accept me or any good job would be open to me. I felt too ashamed and enraged to accept the love and gratitude my family and community showed me. I thought I was going crazy, waking up in a sweat trying to choke my wife, seeing signs of Charley around every corner when the weather was hot and steamy.

Another report covering multiple instances from Cornell that should also be available through the Library of Congress and a Veteran's History Project.

The Tet Offensive began 37 days after Henschel arrived in Vietnam. His unit was sent into Hue, the old imperial capital.

Henschel's platoon was almost wiped out and Henschel himself was shot in the head when he tried to rescue a wounded comrade. The unconscious Marine was placed on top of a tank. When a shell hit the tank, Henschel fell off, and the tank apparently ran over his left leg.

"At this point, probably everyone thought I was dead, but I was unconscious for seven weeks. I regained consciousness in San Diego, Calif., at the naval hospital there. I weighed 72 pounds," Henschel said.

Henschel tried to go to college after he recovered, but he had trouble concentrating because of his injury and discovered that many fellow students at Cornell were hostile.

"I can't count the number of times I was called a murderer," he said. "And actually spit in my face."

Another first person account via a DOD publication:

Back in the 1960s, Cannon graduated from high school and 10 days later was enlisted in the Air Force. He was stationed at Clark Air Base in the Philippines for 17 months beginning in June, 1967. Upon his return to the United States, he was spit on three times while riding the cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform.

This below from a California Assembly Bill on Public Safety circa 2003:

"Overcome by their hatred, people threw rocks at the returning soldiers.  Some spit at them.  Others physically attacked them and tormented them.  No one should have to endure that kind of hate-related violence for simply agreeing to serve their country."

None of the above reports have a dog in this fight now. But obviously they support reports like this at Black Five:

It happened to me, and I asked my father if it had ever happened to him.  If anyone were to be on the receiving end, it would have been him after being involved in the Ohio State riots and Ohio University riots for years.

As The Jawa Report suggests, the notion that returning veterans weren't abused, particularly by spitting, after Vietnam is simply pathetic revisionism by an increasingly revolting Left that opposes the war, while claiming to support the troops.

Were that so, they would not be so interested in revising history and, by default, calling so many of our troops, both past and present, liars to boot.

So, can we question their patriotism now?

Comments

[Jonathan]

Just wondering, what's wrong with legalizing pot?

The "land of the free" now has the highest incarceration rate in the world, bar none.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

This is largely due to the war on drugs. Putting people in prison who have harmed no one doesn't make any sense at all. Prison should be reserved for those who have harmed others by assaulting them or stealing from them.

Oh, and since I've heard so much anecdotal evidence about spitting on troops let me add my own. I was USMC 69-71 and spent considerable time in uniform out in public (you had to be in uniform to fly military standby) and I was never treated with anything but respect. But then I always treat others with respect, even dirty f*cking hippies. I did get snubbed by a couple of WWII vets at American Legion who told me "we won our war" but most of the WWII vets and all the Korean war vets were nothing but supportive.

Frankly, I think that almost any vet who got spit on would have beat the crap out of the spitter, I know I would have.

Just for your information I'm a libertarian leftist on the Political Compass. I have exactly the same political views as the Dalai Lama, something which flat amazed me.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

The Political Compass is a really interesting test which determines one's political leanings more accurately than anything I have seen before. I'd encourage everyone to try it out. You just might find out something you didn't know about yourself. I know I did.

[Bill Adkins]

C'mon, John - don't bullshit me. You know, the world knows, Fred Phelps is the face of the right wing but for his attitude towards soldiers' funerals. If it weren't for that you and Dan would attend every event Fred held.

And, for Templar Knight: If someone spits on a soldier either:
1. . The servicemember should kick the shit out of him.
2. If said servicemember is outnumbered(mulitiple sacks of shit), he should be issued an alarm which will alert everyone that he has been spit upon, and any and all good citizens should kick the shit out of the perpetuators.
Abso-fucking-lutely. (all though, I think the term is 'perpetrators.' I may stink at math, but I have english down).

[Bozoer Rebbe]

"Do we need to turn this into a pissing match? I have lead my students in a food and coat drive for our local vets shelter because I know what some of these guys go through but to think it's at the hand of the liberal ideology is foolish. They suffer more at the hands of an ungrateful government."

Another leftoid sucking at the taxpayers teat. As a public school teacher it must be nice getting a full time salary and full time benefits for part time work.

Don't bother telling me about lesson plans and grading since many people in the private sector bring work home too. I'm self employed and I work until 4AM sometimes.

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, public school teachers earned $34.06 per hour in 2005, 36% more than the hourly wage of the average white-collar worker and 11% more than the average professional specialty or technical worker."

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009612

[smantix]

This is really too rich. They had to enact the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 just to keep people from discriminating against Vietnam vets to get a damn job. After years of depicting them as drug addicted psychos.

Here's a rear admiral lying about being spit on and being called babykillers:
http://www.nationalvnwarmuseum.org/releases/release_7_3_04.htm

Discussion threads at snopes:
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=2360

Discussion threads for Veterans Alumni groups:
http://groups.msn.com/VeteransAlumniAssociation/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=189

Everybody's a liar except the lapdog leftist media that covers up for the behavior of the people who now make up their management.

PBS Series on "Days of Protest"
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/protests.html

Of course, these stories are really just figments of the imagination. The taunts and jeers were coming from Republicans who had hoped to disenfranchise the drafted poor with "Nixon's War".

Stop lying about the hippies you dirty Vietnam vets!
http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1716

[TheSpartan]

Spartan-

"When you stop calling me a racist just because I'm a Republican, I'll stop calling you a traitor just because you're a Democrat. Until then, guns up."

I missed the part where I called you a racist, but whatever gets you through the night sweetpea. And don't worry, my gun will be up.

"And I don't have a yellow ribbon on my SUV. I've got an Eagle Globe and Anchor sticker on my hybrid. I do my part. So bite me."

Geez, wouldn't you be afraid I'd give you AIDS or something?

[JimK]

Here's someone admitting to DOING the spitting.

http://dailypundit.com/?p=24230

Bill Adkins, why are you trying to change the subject? Did Vietnam vets get spit on or not? Can you tell the truth?> Are you capable of it?

[Bill Adkins]

Jim, Jim, Jim - tsk. Do try to extricate your head from your ass. First, Blackfive cannot be trusted. He'a an unmitigated liar. I've dealt with him before. As to my 'changing the subject,' you are not coherent. The fake connection made by Dan, an individual who has zero credibility and a short dick, too, according to his significant other, is between the mythical spitter and opposition to the war today. I know it's difficult for you, Jim, to keep up with the discussion - we hope someday you'll be normal and develop an IQ around room temperature. Until then, luck to ya.

[growfins]

This is an interesting and heated debate. Holy Cross sociology prof Jerry Lembcke wrote an entire book _The Spitting Image_ devoted to this question. He couldn't come up with a single VERIFIABLE contemporary report in a newspaper(not years after the fact story)that reported that this happened. He doesn't say it NEVER did, but it does makes you wonder--if lefties were lobbing spitballs at vets with the regularity righties accuse them of doing so, where are all the photos?

[JimK]

Is that how you pretend to have discussions with people, Bill? You just ignore, lie, misread and then move on, pretending to yourself that you've accomplished something?

BTW, My link had nothing to do with Blackfive. For someone who is attacking others based on ability to follow the conversation, you're doing a piss-poor job of it.

Did anti-war activists *ever* spit on Vietnam vets or not? That's a yes or a no question, Bill. Do you have it in you to be honest?

[JimK]

"where are all the photos?"

Ridiculous. By that logic, anything that wasn't photographed never happened. This isn't Fark. "Pics or it didn't happen" is fun to say when boobs are involved, but it;s intellectually dishonest - and you know it.

[Bill Adkins]

I admit, Jim, it's hard to distinguish you from the rest of the dipshits. To date, Jim, there is no definitive proof of any such events and certainly no proof that spitting was a prevalent and often used method of disrespecting anyone for their service. Is that your position, Jim? Is it your position there were flying squads of spitters ready to spit in unison upon any uniformed serviceman returning from Vietnam? By the way, Jim, are you old enough to remember the period or were you born about the time US forces overran Grenada? I remember the period personally - the Wonder Years for me in the late '60s. C'mon, Jim - give me some of your references.

[JimK]

I asked you a yes or no question. Did it happen?

[John from WuzzaDem]

JimK,

These guys are making perfect asses out of themselves arguing the spitting "debate" without any help, so I had no intention of commenting, but the Fred Phelps "conservative" meme is repeated by ignorant assholes like these so often that I thought they might like to know the truth.

Of course, I was mistaken.

My kid used to do the same thing - put his hands over his ears and yell when he didn't want to hear something. My son grew up - maybe these clowns will some day.

[Bill Adkins]

And I'll give you an answer, Jim - it might have and it might not have happened, there is no 'yes or no,' there is a hell of a lot of doubt. Check out Carl Bourne whose service, rank and story are inconsistent. Check out this clown who is obviously lying http://mediamatters.org/items/200701300012 -- now, answer mine, Jim, yes or no - even if it happened, was it prevalent, was it the preferred method of disrespecting service people? Jim, Jim - are you 12 or 14?

[JimK]

BTW, I noticed your little trick, Bill, you tried ot build yet another strawman against which to rail. I never said anything about "flying squads of spitters ready to spit in unison upon any uniformed serviceman returning from Vietnam."

By creating this hyperbole and attributing it to me, you get to position me as saying off-the-wall and outrageous things, then you feel justified at insulting and attacking me based on those statements. Except YOU made them, not me. YOU changed the tone. YOU began the insults.

I asked you a question. Did it happen? Will you be honest and admit it or not?

[yyy]

It seems unlikely that no Vietnam vet in America was ever spit on by any anti war activist at any time. Given the tenor of the debate on Vietnam at the time, it would very doubtful such an "urban legend" would get started without a basis in fact.

It's irrelevant. I wouldn't spit on any soldier today unless he was convicted of raping or murdering innocent civilians or his fellow soliders, probably not even then.

Spitting or not spitting on Vietnam vets 30 years ago is just a red herring Dan through out there to give his mob a chance to wax poetic about how lefties hate soldiers and are treasonous slobs who 'spit on our soldiers' during Vietnam and are going to do the same thing now in Iraq.

I am surprised so many people took the bait.

[JimK]

Bill, you seem to be saying that EVERY SINGLE serviceman who is saying it happened to them, as well as those who admit to doing the spitting, they are all lying.

That's the Occam's Razor explanation in your mind?

The point of all this was Slate was lazy - there are dozens, maybe hundreds of first-person accounts online of servicemen who were spit upon. Simple Google searches would allow a reporter to get in personal contact with many, many servicemen and make an effort to verify the stories.

So, either they were lazy or they are intentionally rewriting history. Which is worse?

[JimK]

"Spitting or not spitting on Vietnam vets 30 years ago is just a red herring Dan through out there"

No, Slate threw it out there and denied it ever happened. Dan commented on a current story.

[JimK]

"was it the preferred method of disrespecting service people?"

No one EVER said it was.

[Laura]

A contemporary account: Thursday, June 10, 1971 - "Vietnam veterans who aren't afraid to fight back"
The Argus (Fremont, CA), but this article was printed in many newspapers.

"How's it feel to be a murderer?" asked the faculty adviser of Al Zeller, who was mustering out after a year's infantry service in Vietnam. Jim Minarik, another infantry veteran of that war, walked out of doors in his uniform and was twice spat upon, was denied restaurant service and called a "war criminal," all before he had time to buy a civilian suit. Jim Kerns pulled down a Viet Cong flag here and spent nine hours in jail before Judge Halleek dismissed his case. Veterans are advised, one of them said, not to mention Vietnam service when making applications.

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/PdfViewer.aspx?img=47524632&firstvisit=true&src=search&currentResult=2&currentPage=80

[templar knight]

Dan, you have a mob? Sweet!

[Bill Adkins]

And I'll give you an answer, Jim - it might have and it might not have happened, there is no 'yes or no,' there is a hell of a lot of doubt. Check out Carl Bourne whose service, rank and story are inconsistent. Check out this clown who is obviously lying http://mediamatters.org/items/200701300012 -- now, answer mine, Jim, yes or no - even if it happened, was it prevalent, was it the preferred method of disrespecting service people? Jim, Jim - are you 12 or 14?

[yyy]

He does have a point if it's true that there were no news stories at the time about vets being spit on but there were news stories at the time about protestors being spit on.

The media was still pretty mainstream establishment at that time and their audiences were made up of middle america folks not hippies living down at the local commune.

It does seem odd, doesn't it? Objectively speawking.

[templar knight]

Am I blind, or didn't Laura just reference a news story reporting a veteran returning from Vietnam being spit upon, and worse?

[JimK]

The real issues here:

1. Did Vietnam vets ever get spit on by anti-war activists?

2. Are there vets that have given first hand accounts of being spit on?

3. Can those vets be contacted in order to verify their stories?

4. Did Slate make any effort to validate or did they simply draw a conclusion then write a piece supporting that conclusion?

5. Given how easy it is to find any number of servicemen - EVEN DISCOUNTING THE NAMES ALREADY LISTED AS NOT TRUSTWORTHY - who are willing to give first hand testimony about being spit on, why was Slate so wrong? Was it just laziness, or do they have an agenda in rewriting history?

6. Who wants to tell the guy who admits to spitting on returning Vietnam vets that he's a liar too?

Any chance we could discuss these without all the childish insults, avoiding the topic and making up strawmen?

[Laura]

templar knight, your vision is just fine. :-)

[yyy]

Laura's news story does not mention spit as far as I see it.

He's not saying he hasn't heard from vets who say they were spit on, he says he gets these emails all the time, and expects to get them upon publishing the story.

What he says is that no one can offer any contemporary proof like and arrest report or a news story that corroborates it.

[Laura]

And it took me less than ten minutes to find that article, including having to register at Newspaper Archive. So what does that say about Slate?

[Bill Adkins]

Can I prove a negative, Jim? Not to you, apparently. Can you prove to me Carl Bourne, be he sergeant or lieutenant, is telling the truth?

[Bill Adkins]

Wow - don't know why that post repeated when I had composed a completely different one. However, I link to these sites to show the myth and the debate, Jim. http://www.pownetwork.org/fonda/fonda_urban_legends.htm
http://www.pownetwork.org/fonda/fonda_urban_legends.htm
and I see a parallel in the urban legend with this example http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
http://opovet.blogspot.com/2005/08/spitting-on-veterans-persistence-of.html

[Laura]

yyy - "was twice spat upon" spat being used as past tense of spit.

[yyy]

It isn't a live link and you don't say from what year it is. If the article is accurate you should send it to the Slate writer.

[templar knight]

yyy, reread Laura's post.

[JimK]

Bill, what are you talking about? Are you incapable of simply being honest?

Nevermind. I already have my answer to that question.

Have a good night, people. Even you, Bill.

[yyy]

Okay, then if it is an accurate representation of an article from 1971 she should email it to Slate. I guess that would end the debate.

[Laura]

Send it if you like, yyy. It's not my job in life to educate the kids at Slate. If they care to research this topic, they can - but it's clear they did not do so before publishing the article. I repeat, it took me less than ten minutes to find a contemporary account of a vet being spit upon.

[templar knight]

Debate ended. Laura is the winner, Slate is the loser. I have an attaboy for you, Laura. Great work!

[Lavenia]

I was just a kid at the timeof the Vietnam War, but I recall reading in the Sacramento Union that when the Navy carriers went under the Golden Gate Bridge in S.F., that scummy anti-war activists lined up on the bridge and dumped refuse, excrement, etc. from buckets onto the sailors in their dress whites who were at attention on deck showing respect to the City of San Francisco.

It appears to be that the same America-hating, defeatists cast of losers are on the stage in congress and in the streets trying to undermine this country. Fonda (she should have been put in front of a firing squad long ago), kennedy, etc. Same self-satisfied, smug faces, same strident, screeching voices, same empty hearts and minds.

Despite their denials, the media and the liberals are primarily responsible for the current situation in Iraq, by giving sustenance to the terrorist's hopes and plans for defeating us. I just hope that the Republicans in Congress wake up and act as Americans and start fighting this like a war and not mollycoddling the liberals and terrorists alike.

[Jonathan]

Are there any stories about troops beating the crap out of spitters?

That's what I would have done if someone spit on me.

And I was damn sure capable of it then. I know I was tougher and harder than just about any scuzzy civilian, particularly a dirty f*cking hippie.

Y'all seriously expect us to believe that a trigger puller just back from combat would think twice about taking out some maggot who spit on them? The spitter would be lucky not to take a trip to the hospital to have his teeth removed from the back of his throat.

[Laura]

Thanks, templar!

[Darth Malice]

Phelps is a Dem....Come to think of it the Klan were all Dems....Come to think of it the Blank Panthers are Dems......Come to think of it Jane Fonda is a Dem......Anything that's vil seems to be DEMOCRATIC!

[Darth Malice]

*evil*

[templar knight]

I was thinking "vile", Darth Malice, but "evil" will do.

[Darth Malice]

How about evil AND vile:)

[Jonathan]

Y'all really want to know why we are losing in Iraq?

It's Rummy's fault.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_09/009469.php

"The secretary of defense continued to push on us ... that everything we write in our plan has to be the idea that we are going to go in, we're going to take out the regime, and then we're going to leave," Scheid said. "We won't stay."

Scheid said the planners continued to try "to write what was called Phase 4," or the piece of the plan that included post-invasion operations like occupation.

Even if the troops didn't stay, "at least we have to plan for it," Scheid said.

"I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that," Scheid said. "We would not do planning for Phase 4 operations, which would require all those additional troops that people talk about today.

"He said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war."

...."In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can't do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging."

--Brigadier General Mark Scheid, chief of the Logistics War Plans Division after 9/11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shinseki

He (Shinseki) is famous for his remarks to the U.S. Senate Armed Services committee before the war in Iraq in which he said "something in the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would probably be required for post-war Iraq. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz publicly disagreed with his estimate.

On November 15, 2006, in testimony before Congress, USCENTCOM CENTCOM Commander Gen. John Abizaid said that General Shinseki's estimate had proved correct.

[Darth Malice]

Conservatives like me Templar oppose abortion,but I would turn in any clinic bomber with no hesitation.If you notice Eric Rudoulf got no help and was arrested picking through garbage.Red State America follows the law.The Dems cherry pick theirs.

[templar knight]

That's real interesting, Jonathan, but you're either on the wrong thread or the wrong blog. I'll leave it for you to figure out which.

[Jonathan]

I was just responding to this, templar knight.

Despite their denials, the media and the liberals are primarily responsible for the current situation in Iraq, by giving sustenance to the terrorist's hopes and plans for defeating us. I just hope that the Republicans in Congress wake up and act as Americans and start fighting this like a war and not mollycoddling the liberals and terrorists alike.

[templar knight]

I'm with you on that one too, Darth.

[templar knight]

Ok, Jonathan, no offense intended.