Resolving The Spitting Debate

There's a growing blog debate going on as regards peace activists spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam era. It begins here at Slate in an article claiming the charges are false.

The myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran refuses to die.

At Volokh, Jim Lindgren points out some weaknesses in search mechanisms that could lead to the stories not showing up in contemporaneous reports, leading to the assumption that it didn't happen.

Always up for a Google challenge, I decided to take a look and can confirm that spitting and more did in fact take place. Stored on a government server found via advanced Google, there's this first person account - also available in pdf.

As a young Marine officer Carl Bourne was trying to help recruit University of
Connecticut students into the USMC. Some UConn students responded by spitting at him and throwing ink on his dress uniform, Bourne said about his experience on the Storrs campus.

Bourne was the target of spitting and ink throwing in 1973. As a lieutenant he paid for his uniforms, so the ink was not a welcome alteration, especially considering the low pay of the early 1970s. He said he was also called a "baby killer" – right in his own home state.

Another instance is documented in a government fact sheet.

The Legacy of Psychological Trauma from the Vietnam War for American Indian Military Personnel

"I was spit on and called a baby-killer in the mainstream culture when I first came home, and no way any college would accept me or any good job would be open to me. I felt too ashamed and enraged to accept the love and gratitude my family and community showed me. I thought I was going crazy, waking up in a sweat trying to choke my wife, seeing signs of Charley around every corner when the weather was hot and steamy.

Another report covering multiple instances from Cornell that should also be available through the Library of Congress and a Veteran's History Project.

The Tet Offensive began 37 days after Henschel arrived in Vietnam. His unit was sent into Hue, the old imperial capital.

Henschel's platoon was almost wiped out and Henschel himself was shot in the head when he tried to rescue a wounded comrade. The unconscious Marine was placed on top of a tank. When a shell hit the tank, Henschel fell off, and the tank apparently ran over his left leg.

"At this point, probably everyone thought I was dead, but I was unconscious for seven weeks. I regained consciousness in San Diego, Calif., at the naval hospital there. I weighed 72 pounds," Henschel said.

Henschel tried to go to college after he recovered, but he had trouble concentrating because of his injury and discovered that many fellow students at Cornell were hostile.

"I can't count the number of times I was called a murderer," he said. "And actually spit in my face."

Another first person account via a DOD publication:

Back in the 1960s, Cannon graduated from high school and 10 days later was enlisted in the Air Force. He was stationed at Clark Air Base in the Philippines for 17 months beginning in June, 1967. Upon his return to the United States, he was spit on three times while riding the cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform.

This below from a California Assembly Bill on Public Safety circa 2003:

"Overcome by their hatred, people threw rocks at the returning soldiers.  Some spit at them.  Others physically attacked them and tormented them.  No one should have to endure that kind of hate-related violence for simply agreeing to serve their country."

None of the above reports have a dog in this fight now. But obviously they support reports like this at Black Five:

It happened to me, and I asked my father if it had ever happened to him.  If anyone were to be on the receiving end, it would have been him after being involved in the Ohio State riots and Ohio University riots for years.

As The Jawa Report suggests, the notion that returning veterans weren't abused, particularly by spitting, after Vietnam is simply pathetic revisionism by an increasingly revolting Left that opposes the war, while claiming to support the troops.

Were that so, they would not be so interested in revising history and, by default, calling so many of our troops, both past and present, liars to boot.

So, can we question their patriotism now?

Comments

[TomB]

They were everywhere. The UN inspectors for one. Our allies told us that many of the intelligence sources for the WMD, nukes program, mobile chemical labs, etc. were NOT CREDIBLE

Specifics please.

It is interesting that Germany, France and Russia stood to lose Billions of dollars in OFF money if we invaded, yet none of them ever questioned WMDs.

[Dan Riehl]

"The man was 53 in 2003 making him 33 in 1973

LOL Nice catch, Gordo. You'd think these idiots couldn't add and substract, especially as they're such 0's. Damn they are pathetic.

[yyy]

The French told us Saddam Hussein didn't try to buy yellow cake uranium in Niger and that he wouldn't be able to get any if he wanted it.

The Germans told us several of our eye witness sources, including I think, Chalabi's nephew were not credible.

More than one scientist said the centrifuges were not for making weapons, can't remember who he was, some European.

You also have no idea what else they told us that is classified under National Security and never made it into any reports, I wold be the farm that there is a lot more information that should have shown the WMD 'reports' were not credible.

[Gordon]

Dorkafork and Cindi caught it first. But hey, there is a Greater Truth at work here. Math and facts only serve as distractions.

[TomB]

yyy, you seem to be missing the point. I want links to your assertions. The run up to the Iraq invasion was one of the most covered news stories in history. I'm sure there are plenty of quotes you can come up with to prove your point.

[Bender Bending Rodriguez]

Dan, you have my sympathy for having to deal with these low-level mouth-breathing trolls. Droolers like Artie and Spartan tell volumes about the shallowness of the left side of the gene pool. Apparently, the only way to make these intellectual giants run away and hide is to ask them to do second-grade math, like Bill "53-30=33" Atkins.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[yyy]

Are you the same guy that wanted "links" to prove that there was a consensus in the scienfific community that global warming was caused by human activity??!! LOL

I will do what Dan does when questioned, I will say Google it. It is ALL public record. It has been covered ad naseum in the NYTimes, Vanity Fair, Washington Post and the New Yorker.

Feel free to say 'liar liar pants on fire' but I guarantee you won't be able to come up with anything to refute what I have said.

[John from WuzzaDem]

**Newsflash for the koolaid-drinking sheep**

Eh, don't you mean "sheeple"? You people are walking cliches - everyone to the right of you is a redneck, Christian, abortion clinic bombing prude who blindly accepts anything a Republican politician says.

You need to get out more often - I suggest leaving campus once in a while. There's a big world out there that you won't hear about on Kos or DU.

By the way, Bill Adkins, pulling the "Fred Phelps" card to embarrass conservatives doesn't wash. Check out his Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps#Political_views

Political views:

"Phelps' stated political views and activities are primarily driven by his view that the United States of America is "A sodomite nation of flag-worshiping idolators."[24] Phelps' voting registration in Kansas is Democratic.[25]"

Phelps has run in various Kansas ***Democratic*** Party primaries in Kansas five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15% of the vote in 1998.[29]

"***Phelps supported Al Gore in the 1988 and 1992 Democratic Party primary elections***.[30] In his 1984 Senate race, Gore opposed a "gay bill of rights" and stated that homosexuality was not something that "society should affirm".[31] Phelps has stated that he supported Gore because of these earlier comments.[32] According to Phelps, ***members of the Westboro Baptist Church helped run Gore's 1988 campaign in Kansas. ****Phelps' son, Fred Phelps Jr., hosted a Gore fundraiser, which Al and Tipper Gore attended, at his home in Topeka***,[9][32]. ***Fred Phelps, Jr. served as a Gore delegate to the 1988 Democratic National Convention.

[Bill Adkins]

woops - yep, I missed it on the math. He was a 23 year old brown bar. That makes him more credible? And in a time where the war was winding down and he was recruiting - but he was a 23 year old sergeant in the Phillipines during the War era"" -- and you're still spinning your wheels. As for you, Cindi, 1969 or not, can you not document your assertion? No, I think the myth serves your agenda, Dan. And your facts, Gordon, appear to be like Dan's: "One report may have had the rank wrong, or he could have gotten a field commission to Lt." and "It's possible that Mr. Bourne held a commission at one point." What we have here, people, is Dan with an agenda trying to connect opposition to this war on the grounds it was a stupid move with the 'spitting on Vietnam vets' lie. Keep trying, Dan - so far we've got you on this and Rush's Nobel Nomination and countless others. Credibility isn't your strong suit, is it?

[TomB]

"Are you the same guy that wanted "links" to prove that there was a consensus in the scienfific community that global warming was caused by human activity??!! LOL"

Yes, and I'm still waiting. I also posted the names of around 80 scientist who are "sceptics" of AGW.

"I will do what Dan does when questioned, I will say Google it. It is ALL public record. It has been covered ad naseum in the NYTimes, Vanity Fair, Washington Post and the New Yorker."

Of course. When called on a lie, hide behind google. The reason you can't post links to anyone of consequence quesitoning WMDs in Iraq is becuase there aren't any. You prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt by your actions.

[ava]

Don't blame these retards for pretending that disrespect of servicemen did not happen. In 30 years the Dems will also be pretending that they were for the Iraq war. In fact, they will say they were the reason it was fought.

[Bill Adkins]

Regardless of Phelps politcal affiliation, john, his actions reflect the views of the right wing and the Republican Party.

[Bill Adkins]

The Iraq War is Bush's Legacy, a Blunder of major proportions and nothing to do with retaliation for the World Trade Center Bombings. More use by Bush of the WTC victims as props for his stupidity.

[Dan Riehl]

Regardless of Phelps politcal affiliation

haha ha Th reality based community. It doesn't matter who or what you are, if we don't like you you must be a right winger. LMAO Not even a clue bat could knock any sense into these idiots. I hope they wear bibs to keep the drool off of their keyboards.

[Jonathan]

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

In February 2003, Powell said: "We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more."

But two years earlier, Powell said just the opposite. The occasion was a press conference on 24 February 2001 during Powell's visit to Cairo, Egypt. Answering a question about the US-led sanctions against Iraq, the Secretary of State said:

We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...

[yyy]

Oh for the LOVE OF GOD.

The United Nations released its report on Global Warming THIS WEEK!!!!!!!!!!! It was reported in EVERY MEDIA OUTLET that I am aware of. It says the probability that global warming is facilitated by human acitvity is NINETY PERCENT. It has been one of the lead stories for the last several days.

There were congressional hearings THIS WEEK where over 40% of government scientists said they had been censured with regard to reports on climate change. THIS WEEK. IN CONGRESS.

Do you really need me to google news this big for you?????????????????????????????????????????????

I could find 80 people who thing the moon landing was faked, so what?

You've got the United Nations and every other scientific organization on the freaking planet in accord

[Bill Adkins]

A 'clue bat?" You could only use it if you had a clue, Dan - and that disqualifies you. The anti-gay agenda is all yours, Dan - it's one of those divisive issues you and yours use in constitutional referendums from state to state, the anti-gay marriage. Wow - wait a minute, Dan!! This is your chance!! Stand up for gay rights now or admit you are Fred Phelps!! This is your opportunity, Dan, to prove you aren't the numbnutz bigot everyone thinks you are.

[Dan Riehl]

In February 2003

SO what> Everyone knows there was more intelligence after that, some from defectors. People may have got it wrong, but it was gotten wrong by everyone around the world. And many suggest weapons were being developed in cooperation with Lybia - which were handed over after we invaded Iraq, as you might recall.

[yyy]

May have got it wrong?

As far as I know "everyone around the world" except for Tony Blair was adamantly opposed to the Iraq War.

Many suggest that Saddam Hussein really had WMD and he failed to use them on our troops and he spirited them out of Iraq but decided he wanted to stay in in a hole.

LOL

[Bill Adkins]

The War in Iraq - the Blunder that keeps on giving. What's that tab up to now? I hear the Moron in Chief asked for another $245,000,000,000. (I know, another math problem).

[greenwing]

Regardless of Phelps political affiliation, john, his actions reflect the views of the right wing and the Republican Party.
Posted by: Bill Adkins | Saturday, February 03, 2007 at 05:50 PM

The right wing and the Republican Party are the very ones who protest the Phelps clan. Check out the Bethesda and Walter Reed protests by the Phelps clan and take note of who the only ones were who protested against them.

Perhaps while you are googling, you might want to check out the affiliations of Phelps with Al Gore. You'll find several references spanning the years, including pictures of Phelps with Al and Tipper.

After you finish that, perhaps you should see the pathetic group of code pink members who march weekly at Walter Reed Medical Center. Anyone who dishonors a disabled veteran by staging an anti-war protest at a military hospital is not only misguided, but evil.

[serr8d]

On the WMD's: WHO CARES? We went in to Iraq, cleaned out a murderous dictator (don't worry, leftards, you can add Saddam to your Dead Hero's list, with Cesar Chavez...alive, you still have Hugo Chavez and Castro...for now). We've taken the war to the Islamic fundies, there, not here. We're there to support Israel, to keep moving the free flow of OIL, yes, OIL, and unless you want to join the Ahmish you can't say a word about OIL, because you use it every day, in our booming economy (another thing you want to destroy, huh? Capitalism? Libs hate capitalism)...although you probably would look good in an oilless economy, fitted to a plow...

On Global Warming, WHO CARES? Stick around a few millenia, whatever is on this earth will be dodging Glaciers. We use oil, we warm the earth. We can move inland, and there will be plenty of species adapting to the changing temperatures. You worry too much, and worry about things that you can't control. Your short lifespan, compared to the geological or even biological timelines of this planet, is not even a blip. Get over yourselves!

[TomB]

YYYou seem to have some confusion regarding my question. You had made the statement that there was a "consensus" regarding AGW. That is completely untrue. And I posted the names of 80 scientists, many of them climatologists, that disputed AGW. Given that, I have proven that the "consensus" is politically-motivated baloney. You can dispute wether or not those scientists are right, but there is NO CONSENSUS. All your posting above does nothing to dispute that.

Also, if you had been really paying attention, the IPCC report has not been released "THIS WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!". What was released was the political summary. The actual report (you know, with all the "science" in it) will be release in about three months when "Changes (other than grammatical or minor editorial changes) made after acceptance by the Working Group or the Panel shall be those necessary to ensure consistency with the Summary for Policymakers or the Overview Chapter". Yes, you read right. They will adjust the report to fit the summary. How's that for good science?

Why do you believe the UN? What has it done the past decade or longer to earn your trust?

And you didn't answer my question about WMDs. If France, Germany, Russia, th UN, etc, were all against the war, and they all stood to gain billions of dollars in oil for food kickbacks, why did none of them dispute that Iraq had WMDs?

[Hipster Doofus]

Vietnam vets were treated so well when they came home that Congress had to enact a whole new set of workplace protections to keep employers from firing them for their service.

If there is one brightside to the number of homeless Vietnam vets, it's that a disproportionate number seem to be flocking to San Francisco. The vets did what their country told them, they got spit on for it, and went insane trying to cope with it. You spit on them then, now they piss on your lawn.

Live with it.

[TheSpartan]

On the WMD's: WHO CARES?

Ummm, wasn't that the reason we went to war? If it was simply to take out a despotic leader weren't there better choices?

"On Global Warming, WHO CARES? Stick around a few millenia, whatever is on this earth will be dodging Glaciers. We use oil, we warm the earth. We can move inland, and there will be plenty of species adapting to the changing temperatures."

There's only one word that comes to mind after a statement like that...fucktard. No seriously, I realize you experience climate change daily when you jam your head into your nice warm ass, but the rest of us realize that we caused it and at the very least we can figure out how to slow it down.

[TomB]

You can always tell when the left is trying to pull one over on you when they don't give a link to the actual press conference. You know they are leaving things out:

http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/2001/933.htm

SECRETARY POWELL: Let me agree with the Minister that the talks coming up between the Iraqi leadership and the Secretary General of the United Nations are important. We will see whether they are serious -- whether they want to move in the direction that will cause the sanctions to be lifted. Sanctions aren't something we want to live with forever. They were put in place in order to bring the regime into compliance with the international community and when that has been accomplished to the satisfaction of the international community and we can trust they have been, we will be in good shape.

and:

SECRETARY POWELL: May I just add a p.s. that if I was a Kuwaiti and I heard leaders in Baghdad claiming that Kuwait is still a part of Iraq and it's going to be included in the flag and the seal, if I knew they were continuing to try to find weapons of mass destruction, I would have no doubt in my mind who those weapons were aimed at. They are being aimed at Arabs, not at the United States or at others. Yes, I think we should...he has to be contained until he realizes the errors of his ways.

With respect to Mr. Ivanov, I don't expect that my comments alienated them any further. I don't think they are that alienated to begin with. We are having good conversations. I was very impressed, as is President Bush, impressed by the fact that in the recent proposal they put forward to NATO, they indicated that they understand that there is a danger from missiles that are carrying warheads -- that are weapons of mass destruction. So I think we had a good conversation, a candid exchange of views, as is said in the diplomatic world. We have much more to talk about in the months ahead without alienating each other in the process.

Powell was clear that Hussein was STILL, at that late period of time, trying to acquire more WMDs, and that he did still posess yet more.

But thanks for posting this. It is a great reminder for those on the left who continue to screech "Sanctions were working! We had him in a box!". Well, the truth of the matter is that up until 9-11, support for sanctions were crumbling.

[Jonathan]

A little simple arithmetic

Number of Iraqis killed in Iraq 150,000
Money spent in Iraq: $500,000,000,000

$500,000,000,000/150,000=$3,333,333 per dead Iraqi

[yyy]

Tom,

I fear you do not know the meaning of "consensus" It does not mean that every single scientist agrees, it means that the overwhelming majority of scientists agree. Perhaps you want me to look up the meaning of consensus and post it here as well?

A list of 80 scientists means nothing when every world body, every report, every major scientific organization says the same thing. That is A CONSENSUS.

The United States signed off on the UN report. I realize that in the flat earther wing nut mythology the United Nations is right up there with the trilateral commission in its question for world domination, but, this is an international body of scientists, why would I disbelieve them? No one has questioned the credibility of this group or its findings in the past, except the oil companies and every oil company except Exxon has finally publicly admitted that global warming is a problem and carbon emissions are exacerbating it.

[TheSpartan]

Hipster you think PTSD might have a little more to do with their mental state than how they were or were no treated when they got home?

As for laws passed to protest them, you think this was the first time Vet's felt mistreated? I seem to remember a certain march on washington known as the Bonus March. Vet's marching on DC camped out and demanded payment of bonuses that had been promised them (though not due to be paid out for another 13years), eventually the police tried to move them out, two of the marchers were killed then Hoover called in the infantry led by Gen. MacArthur and then Major George patton. They were driven out and their encampment was burned to the ground.

[yyy]

These guys will never believe or admit global warming, they all think that the earth and everything on it are here for man's use, god told them so.

The idea of mass extinctions is no big deal. Who needs those stinking polar bears and whales anyway???

They will never admit global warming is the result of human activity because that would be admitting they were wrong and, worse, still, it would be admitting that one of their favorite whipping posts..environmental, tree hugger, vegans...was right.

For the same reason they will never admit that Iraq is a clusterfuck. They will keep on turning the corner forever. They don't care how much money is spent or how many soldiers die. Should their fearless leaders ever admit that Iraq was not a success it will be blamed on the liberal, Democrat tree hugger, traitors and/or the Arab/Iranian?Iraqi muslim animal terrorists themselves.

It was much, much easier for them back in the day when if you said something they didn't like they simply accused you of witchcraft or heresy and had you killed. That's why they hate free speech, the free press and democracy.

[Hipster Doofus]

Spartan,

You're a real turd. Do you know that? A class A turd.

When Vietnam vets returned home, they were treated so well by your intellectual forebears that Congress had to pass anti-discrimination laws to keep turds like you from firinig their asses. Do you know that?

When our guys were dying, Jane Fonda--who raised her ugly fucking face up once more last week at one of your hate America rallies--went over and hung out with the Vietcong.

John Kerry came back and called our troops baby killers.

This shit is incontrovertible. Arguing with an idiot like you is like arguing with a member of Sons of Confederate Veterans over whether the civil war was about slavery or the right to secede. You can make up whatever shit you want. That doesn't make it so.

I don't know if you personally are a traitor, but a good number of your buddies are. I believe it, and I will continue to believe it if I am the last person on earth to be thinking it. You are vermin. Go to hell.

Relatedly, I love it that San Francisco has one of the highest homeless rates in the nation, and that a disproportionate number of them are made up of Vietnam vets. They are your shame. They are there, in your city, pissing on the lawns and defecating into gutters in your beautiful "tolerant" San Francisco because these bravehearts went to Vietnam to kill for their country, came home, and were spit on by people who think a lot like you. The vets picked the right city to dirty up.

Think about that the next time you're on your way to your rave with your glow sticks and a vet comes up and tries to wash your windshield with his dirty rag. Look into his eyes. And know that people who think like you put him there.

[Dan Riehl]

$3,333,333 per dead Iraqi

Then maybe you need to stop accusing Bush of thinking life is cheap.

[yyy]

Well, um, if we hadn't gotten bogged down in Vietnam, another stupid move, there wouldn't be any Vietnam vets who couldn't adjust back into society whether they were spit on or not.

You might also ask some Vietnam vets how well they think the government has taken care of them...but, well no forget that, they might say something that doesn't fit your worldview.

The earth is flat I say.

[TomB]

"A list of 80 scientists means nothing when every world body, every report, every major scientific organization says the same thing. That is A CONSENSUS."

Uh, no. Perhaps it is a political consensus, at least for you. But it is not, in any way, a scientific consensus.

You keep telling me about all these groups who agree. Who are they? What are their membership criteria? Where does their funding come from?

You keep screaming CONSENSUS!!! like it means anything. But science doesn't work that way. It isn't a democracy. As we are reminded ad nauseaum, the "consensus" in the 70s was that we were sliding into an ice age. How did that "consensus" work out?

[serr8d]

"...global warming is a problem and carbon emissions are exacerbating it."

So what do you want to do about it, yyy? Shut down the world economy so your batshit ego is assuaged? We have to keep moving forward, or your thin, fragile little civilization will strip away, then who and what will protect you from the harsh reality that exists outside your comfortable living quarters?

I say we have to, at a reasonable pace and not so as to destroy the forward progress we must sustain to maintain a healthy economy, begin to augment technological advances as they become economically feasible. After all, if new technology can't be developed at profit, it can't be introduced. We have to make marketable changes, not economy-destroying 'liberal destructive' changes.

[TheSpartan]

"I don't know if you personally are a traitor, but a good number of your buddies are. I believe it, and I will continue to believe it if I am the last person on earth to be thinking it. You are vermin. Go to hell."

Wow, that really cuts me to the quick hipster.

As for protecting Vets from getting fired for serving, hey that's a great thing but where in your post do you show any proof that it was libs who were firing them? Isn't the corporate world run by you guys? Did you ever think that maybe conservatives turned their backs on vets as much as anyone? If the VA had been fully funded during the Reagan era or if PTSD had been taken seriously (it still isn't) then maybe things would be different. You guys think supporting the troops means supporting whatever action they are involved in no matter how ill-advised while me and my "buddies" think it means getting them home and providing support for them after they leave the military in the form of the GI Bill and other vets benefits that Bushco kept cutting.

[TomB]

"That's why they hate free speech, the free press and democracy."

And that is why the Dems are trying to resurrect the "fairness doctrine", 'cause they love free speech, as long as its regulated.

[Hipster Doofus]

Who's the idiot that turned this into a global warming debate?

The topic is liberals and their treason. I can see why libturds would rather talk about icebergs than the fact that their intellectual antecedents treated returning Vietnam veterans like shit.

Icebergs aren't the topic. Liberals and their treason is.

Please try to stay on point.

[Hipster Doofus]

Spartan--

Debating historical revisionists is masturbation. Vietnam vets got spit on. End of story.

You don't have to go back to 'Nam to see libturds behaving badly. Just a few months ago, San Francisco banned the JROTC program. But I don't dare question their patriotism. Oh no.

Meanwhile, that Arkin douchebag is running around squealing about troops currently serving in Iraq wishing the American people would "support them" by "supporting the mission." How dare these "mercenaries" (yes, the turd used that word) tell the American people what to think! They don't represent society! Well no shit, Arkin, when libturds avoid military service like the plague and support running ROTC off of college campuses, it is shocking-SHOCKING-that the troops turn out to be more conservative than society at large.

[TheSpartan]

"Vietnam vets got spit on. End of story."

There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, but regardless even if you accept that there may have been instances of vets getting spit on does that paint the whole left as spitters? If so, then accepting as fact that there was at least one incident of soldiers in Vietnam killing innocent Women and children does that make all that served in Vietnam as baby killers? Your rules, you make the call.

You see, you can't paint us all with the same brush. You pretend to know something about my attitude towards vets and you know nothing about it. I have nothing but respect for them. My father, brother and grandfather all served proudly. My father suffered the ill affects of PTSD and an establishment that didn't understand the illness.

Do we need to turn this into a pissing match? I have lead my students in a food and coat drive for our local vets shelter because I know what some of these guys go through but to think it's at the hand of the liberal ideology is foolish. They suffer more at the hands of an ungrateful government.

[TheSpartan]

Oh and Hipster, why don't you go and throw another ribbon magnet on your SUV.

[Mike]

Really the point of this whole thing can be boiled down to this: baggage. Each side (and I am talking left and right of the political spectrum) has things that the fringe (or maybe more than just the fringe) did that they have to carry and deal with. The spitting on vets is a perfect case in point. Did it happen? Yes, it DID. I have an uncle who was spat upon when he got back from overseas in the navy in 1969 and called a baby killer. I am an officer in the Army and while attending a friend's wedding in Oakland (in which I was in uniform) I was called a baby-killer (and this was in 1997 of all times). So did the hippie who spit on my uncle and the goofball who called me a baby-killer mainstream Demos? Or even a good example of the left as a whole? Nope. But does everyone who is on the left side have to carry the baggage of being associated with these oxygen thieves? Yes. Does that suck? Yep. Is it fair? No.

And that is just tough because that is life.

I am conservative. And I have to be compared to Hitler, or muckheads who bomb abortion clinics, or religious loons who would rather use the bible instead of the Constitution. I hate it, but that's my sides baggage because we haven't been able to purge the morons out of the group yet. And the left suffers the same problem. ANd of course the Libertarians have to deal with the whole "let's legalize pot" crowd and etc, etc.

You get the drift.

Lefties, you are going to have your patriotism questioned and you are going to get grief over treating vets badly. Get over it.

Righties, you are going to be compared to Hitler, reminded of Abu Garabi, My Lai, and Kent State, and called baby-killers. Also get over it.

Ignore the screwballs, and talk to the folks who can at least look past this and have an intelligent debate.

[Dan Riehl]

If we wanted reasonable intelligent debate, we wouldn't talk politics.

[John from WuzzaDem]

Regardless of Phelps politcal affiliation, john, his actions reflect the views of the right wing and the Republican Party.

Posted by: Bill Adkins | Saturday, February 03, 2007 at 05:50 PM

Holy shit, you ditched your shovel and fired up the backhoe. I know more than a few conservatives and Republicans (probably more than you've ever spoken to in your life), and to a person every one of them considers Phelps to be a despicable asshole.

But you don't let facts get in your way - you come here and inform conservatives and Republicans that Phelps's actions reflect their views. Amazing.

Like I said, try taking a trip off campus some time, you might learn something.

[Mike]

Well, that is true I guess. Oh well.

[Dan Riehl]

Looks like the moonbats let up. Must be medication time back at the ward.

[Hipster Doofus]

Spartan-

When you stop calling me a racist just because I'm a Republican, I'll stop calling you a traitor just because you're a Democrat. Until then, guns up.

And I don't have a yellow ribbon on my SUV. I've got an Eagle Globe and Anchor sticker on my hybrid. I do my part. So bite me.

[JimK]

Attention right-leaning folks in this thread: You've committed the vital mistake of letting these idiots try to change the subject. They completely and totally changed the debate and you all fell for it.

The response to them should be simple; Did anti-war activists spit on returning Vietnam vets or not? The answer is yes, and even if it only happened once (which we now know is not true), then Slate is guilty of lazy reporting, or at worst outright lying. Anyone who attempts to deny it or downplay it is guilty is trying to rewrite history to further their current-day political goals.

Nothing else matters in this particular debate. Nothing but the truth. I dare you, Bill Adkins, to start telling it. Don't worry about who else is doing what...can YOU personally hold yourself to a completely truthful standard?

In this particular thread, you have not done so. The point of this post by Dan is to prove that Slate told a falsehood, and it might have been due to lazy reporting, or it might have been because they are trying to rewrite history. Can you admit that before you try to shift the blame or focus?

[templar knight]

Dan, here's my suggestion. If someone spits on a soldier either:

1. The servicemember should kick the shit out of him.
2. If said servicemember is outnumbered(mulitiple sacks of shit), he should be issued an alarm which will alert everyone that he has been spit upon, and any and all good citizens should kick the shit out of the perpetuators.

My father is a Vietnam vet. He told me he was spit at, cursed at, and accused of atrocities upon his return. I believe him, and if I witness anyone spitting on a serviceman, I personally will kick the shit out of him. Or get my ass beat. But one of the two will happen.

[serr8d]

What really amazes me about the left in general is that they offer no real-world solutions to the problems they enumerate; other than solutions that will tear the very fabric of our country apart. It does seem at times that they do hate America, and capitalism. One would not exist without the other! Socialism is a drain on whatever economic system is in place; of course we will take care of everyone in need, but if we shut off the engine of capitalism, everyone suffers.

We need Oil at fair market prices, that's the lifeblood of America, for now. Our middle east policy has to reflect that. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel, and any other country that opposes the Islamic fundamentalists, needs our support, and we need their geography. Simplistic, but true. Liberals, and specifically the Democrats who drove Lieberman out of their party, will, if we let them, drive this nation into extinction. And the ones spitting and calling for retreat are the ones that will cry the loudest when we lose...