Resolving The Spitting Debate

There's a growing blog debate going on as regards peace activists spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam era. It begins here at Slate in an article claiming the charges are false.

The myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran refuses to die.

At Volokh, Jim Lindgren points out some weaknesses in search mechanisms that could lead to the stories not showing up in contemporaneous reports, leading to the assumption that it didn't happen.

Always up for a Google challenge, I decided to take a look and can confirm that spitting and more did in fact take place. Stored on a government server found via advanced Google, there's this first person account - also available in pdf.

As a young Marine officer Carl Bourne was trying to help recruit University of
Connecticut students into the USMC. Some UConn students responded by spitting at him and throwing ink on his dress uniform, Bourne said about his experience on the Storrs campus.

Bourne was the target of spitting and ink throwing in 1973. As a lieutenant he paid for his uniforms, so the ink was not a welcome alteration, especially considering the low pay of the early 1970s. He said he was also called a "baby killer" – right in his own home state.

Another instance is documented in a government fact sheet.

The Legacy of Psychological Trauma from the Vietnam War for American Indian Military Personnel

"I was spit on and called a baby-killer in the mainstream culture when I first came home, and no way any college would accept me or any good job would be open to me. I felt too ashamed and enraged to accept the love and gratitude my family and community showed me. I thought I was going crazy, waking up in a sweat trying to choke my wife, seeing signs of Charley around every corner when the weather was hot and steamy.

Another report covering multiple instances from Cornell that should also be available through the Library of Congress and a Veteran's History Project.

The Tet Offensive began 37 days after Henschel arrived in Vietnam. His unit was sent into Hue, the old imperial capital.

Henschel's platoon was almost wiped out and Henschel himself was shot in the head when he tried to rescue a wounded comrade. The unconscious Marine was placed on top of a tank. When a shell hit the tank, Henschel fell off, and the tank apparently ran over his left leg.

"At this point, probably everyone thought I was dead, but I was unconscious for seven weeks. I regained consciousness in San Diego, Calif., at the naval hospital there. I weighed 72 pounds," Henschel said.

Henschel tried to go to college after he recovered, but he had trouble concentrating because of his injury and discovered that many fellow students at Cornell were hostile.

"I can't count the number of times I was called a murderer," he said. "And actually spit in my face."

Another first person account via a DOD publication:

Back in the 1960s, Cannon graduated from high school and 10 days later was enlisted in the Air Force. He was stationed at Clark Air Base in the Philippines for 17 months beginning in June, 1967. Upon his return to the United States, he was spit on three times while riding the cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform.

This below from a California Assembly Bill on Public Safety circa 2003:

"Overcome by their hatred, people threw rocks at the returning soldiers.  Some spit at them.  Others physically attacked them and tormented them.  No one should have to endure that kind of hate-related violence for simply agreeing to serve their country."

None of the above reports have a dog in this fight now. But obviously they support reports like this at Black Five:

It happened to me, and I asked my father if it had ever happened to him.  If anyone were to be on the receiving end, it would have been him after being involved in the Ohio State riots and Ohio University riots for years.

As The Jawa Report suggests, the notion that returning veterans weren't abused, particularly by spitting, after Vietnam is simply pathetic revisionism by an increasingly revolting Left that opposes the war, while claiming to support the troops.

Were that so, they would not be so interested in revising history and, by default, calling so many of our troops, both past and present, liars to boot.

So, can we question their patriotism now?

Comments

[TheSpartan]

So, can we question their patriotism now?

No you can't. Cherry pick "first hand" accounts all you want, that doesn't make it so. Of course now you have Joshua Sparling as your little darling who just happens to find his way to the center of these altercations at every turn.

Just because my patriotism doesn't match yours doesn't give you any right to question it. Do I get to question yours? I mean you lay down for this presidents every wish never questioning him or his VP as if you were a dog at their feet. Is that patriotic?

[Dan Riehl]

No you can't. Cherry pick "first hand" accounts all you want"

You're a worthless piece of garbage.

[TheSpartan]

Why, because I disagree with you? You get ticked at me because I question the validity of these accounts, yet you are more than willing to question the accounts of the accomplishments of John Kerry in Vietnam, how is that any different?

[Dan Riehl]

Just human scum, that's all you are.

[TheSpartan]

That's all you've got Dan? Pathetic. They should take away your commision in the 101st Keyboard Brigade.

Here's the thing, you can't recognize sarcasm when you see it. Is it POSSIBLE that a few individuals have been spit on in the past? Yes it's POSSIBLE. But don't use that to paint the entire left, it's mendacious at best. It would be like me saying "A couple of guys in Iraq murdered an entire family and gang raped a 13yo, all Marines and Soldiers are evil". I don't think that at all, nor does the vast majority of the left. It is becoming clearer by the minute that more and more of the right believes liberals/progressives are ALL anti-military. Of course that's to be expected as your numbers dwindle.

[Bill Adkins]

Whoaa, Dan - TheSpartan is kicking your ass. Let's talk about your debating skills, not to mention your record of posting bogus links and relying upon, ahem, questionable sources. And to, say, connect me to someone who MAY have spit on a soldier? By what logic,Dan? I'm not a pacifist, I'm not anti-war, I think World War II was a good war and worked out right, I think Vietnam was a war that should have been won in a matter of months and was dragged out by special interests and profiteers, I belive Afghanistan is slipping back to the Taliban because Bush Blundered into Iraq and, finally, that George W. Bush is so stuck on stupid as to never be able to extricate himself from stupid. But, Dan, I digress - your debating skills - they suck.

[tally]

"But don't use that to paint the entire left,"

of course it's not the ENTIRE left. however, the ENTIRE right never has and never will spit on a soldier.

[Bill Adkins]

BTW, Mr. Bourne, in your first account, was never in Vietnam - the spitting you describe was on a college campus; and the one individual quoted as coming back from Vietnam said the only person who met him was his wife.

[TheSpartan]

"ENTIRE right never has and never will spit on a soldier."

And the ENTIRE left has never blown up an abortion clinic, what's your point?

[scarshapedstar]

Sorry, Dan. It's pretty clear by now that Sparling, for one, simply makes sh*t up. If you knew a black guy who claimed that he heard "Send 'em back to Africa!" every time he went to a Republican fundraiser, you'd probably get a little suspicious. And if I called you "worthless garbage" and "human scum" because of it, you'd probably suspect that maybe that was the plan all along.

[Carl]

Spartan 1, Conboy 0. This is shaping up as bad as being laughed at on national tv (on Fox no less) for calling a Macaca victory. Stay the course, conboy!!

[Dan Riehl]

If you think someone not carrying on against crap he'd just as soon wipe off his shoe means you win a debate, feel free to do so. As far as I'm concerned, you and your arguments are just so much dung I've scraped off and moved on. And I didn't even put you in a little save the planet baggie - so choke on that.

[Bill Adkins]

The only one spitting on veterans, Dan, is you. Today you spit on Iraq war veterans by supporting the very president that sent them to Iraq based upon his lies. You don't support veterans, Dan, you use them as props for your agenda.

"Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.

The exaggerations in Smith's story are characteristic of those told by others. ''Most Vietnam veterans were spat on when we came back," he said. That's not true. A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition to the war."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/

[Bill Adkins]

Then there's this, Dan. http://opovet.blogspot.com/

"Coincidentally, as I was composing the previous blog entry, I got a post on my old "spitting on vets" post. Someone who prefers to hide behind anonymity cites a reference to an alleged CBS news story from December 1971 that "proves" that Vietnam vets were spit on. And based on this single citation he claims that "hundreds" of Vietnam vets were victims of expectorant attacks.

Okay, I'll bite. I looked at the source. Just as I suspected, it is not a documented contemporary account. It's just some guy saying after the fact that he was spit on at the Seattle airport on his way back from Vietnam. There were no arrests, no incident reports filed by airport security or local police, no contemporary newspaper accounts, nothing. Just one guy's after-the-fact claim."

[Artie]

Hmm. Sounds, like some made-up swiftboat bullshit. You cons love making up stories don't you??

[Cindi]

Dan, I had the pleasure in meeting up with a Vietnam vet this past Veterans day. He came into my place of employment and for some reason he caught my eye, not knowing he was a vet something told me to say Happy Veterans day to him. He reached out, took my hands and said to me, I knew there was something special about you, I could see the kindness in your eyes. We stood there talking for close to an hour. He shared with me what brought him to this part of PA. He now lives as a minister in upstate. He came down to visit a dying army pal who lives in town. We got to talking about the protests of the war in Iraq. That is when he started to share with me about his experience and that of so many others on returning from Nam. He claimed to have lived in a community in the back woods of Washington. There were around 30 vets who at first set up living in tents then eventually built homes, raised famalies. He said the vets them selves never went into town due to being treated so badly upon their return. Those that married and had children choose to home school them to limit their contact. I had tears in my eyes as he was telling me these things. Mind you, he did not start the topic, I did. I do not now nor did I at the time think he was trying to bullshit me with a made up story. I tried that night to find something about the story he shared on Google, but wasn't able to find anything. Not that it's important, I believed him, mostly because he shared with me of his healing and eventual entry into ministry.

I can remember first hand as a student in high school all the stories of the return of these brave men. First hand I witnessed the protesters lining the road the day my best friends brother who was killed in nam was buried. After the funeral there was a service at our local police department. In anger Mike's best friend who accompanied his body home to Bucks County was so upset with the protesters, when he attached our Flag to raise it in honor of Mike, he attached it upside down. The local paper the next day showed it as a sign of disrespect and protest by this highly decorated man. Those there who knew Mike and his best friend Len, knew it to be quite the opposite.

Thank you Dan for bringing up this topic once again. This is all I could think about from the very first protest over Iraq. I don't give a damn what those that say they support our troops and are protesting the war say. You can not protest something you dislike so much and still give respect to the men fighting this war. These men and women in uniform are not stupid and they believe in what they are doing or they sure as hell wouldn't be doing it!

[Bill Adkins]

Protestors like the Westboro Baptist Church, Cindi? The Rev. Fred Phelps, Christian Extraordinaire who protests at the funerals of Iraq War Dead? Those protestors you cite in your post, Cindi, apparently did nothing but line the roads - perhaps in mourning for someone lost. Are you going to tell me they disrespected the casualty? I would certainly love you to provide any proof of your allegation. And I'm betting you cannot and will not.

[Artie]

Q: What the hell kind of loser raises a family in a tent?? A: One that believes in homeschooling. Wow, that guy sounds like a TOTAL kook!!

[Darth Malice]

America does not deserve it's nobel veterans.....Thank you Dan for exposing the Lefts hatred for troops.They just can't help it:(

[Bill Adkins]

Report phony vets:
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies.htm

http://www.miafacts.org/stolenvalor.htm

http://www.sftt.us/roster.html

[Purple Avenger]

"You get ticked at me because I question the validity of these accounts"

So let me get this straight. We have the "chickenhawk" argument that says anyone who wasn't in the military can't have an opinion on the war's prosecution. But we also have you saying those in the military are talking shit about the spitting allegations.

Why is it vets testimony about one thing is valid, but about another its not?

Why the double standard here?

[Darth Malice]

Phoney vets???Where??*Lightsaber ignited*

[Bill Adkins]

How many 'Carl Bourne' vets are there? " "I can remember being spit on, having ink thrown at me, and being called a baby killer," said Staff Sgt. Carl Bourne, 53, a National Guardsman from Montville, Conn., who was a Marine stationed in the Philippines during the Vietnam War. "Now it's a whole different ball game. ... It's so much different than the Vietnam time frame."" Similar yet inconsistent, hmmm? http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20031211-094853-9442r.htm

[Artie]

On a related topic, how's the liberation going in Iraq? Word is a lot of hearts and minds are scattered all over the streets of Baghdad today. You cons are utter failures.

[Darth Malice]

Artie you still have not joined your Jihad friends yet???Oh that's right you are more valuable here for the cause.

[Artie]

Jihad? Ha, you consheep are such laughable turds. Truth hurts, huh? You and your retarded leader are fools.

[Darth Malice]

Maybe the muzzies will get you last Artie.Depends how long they need useful fools.

[Dan Riehl]

"How many 'Carl Bourne' vets are there?"

The accounts aren't inconsistent. He went on to recruit and the spitting incident was in 1973. One report may have had the rank wrong, or he could have gotten a field commission to Lt. - which is the basic level. The story I linked was in fact about the CT guard.

[Bill Adkins]

'could have,' 'might have,' 'if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses.' C'mon, Dan!!! The man was 53 in 2003 making him 33 in 1973 making him one of the oldest LTs in the US Army!!! Sheesh!!

[91B30]

It's possible that Mr. Bourne held a commission at one point, but failed to make rank (and if he has been in the service in some form or another for over 30 years that would seem likely unless he was, by now, a general officer) and went back to the enlisted ranks. I know of several officers who have done just that-they will retire as the highest rank held and continue to accumulate points toward retirement as an enlisted soldier.

[91B30]

Bill Adkins-check your math again.

[DaveS]

I don't peruse the comments here very often, but I gotta ask... why do you guys even engage people like "Artie" and "TheSpartan?

I mean... TheSpartan jumps right in with a blatantly fallacious bit of flamebait--you're "cherry picking first hand accounts" but he doesn't provide examples of contradictory "first hand accounts"--and you argue with him? What good does that do? When you stoop to their moronic level of debate it reflects poorly on this side as well.

[Stormy70]

The left just can't accept the fact that they were military hating assholes in the sixties. Sorry, talk to the vets I know who were spit on, had paint thrown at them and had the lefty hippies calling them baby killers. Wishing it did not happen because you are now ashamed does not make it so. It just makes you a liar. The left has no credibility on this issue, and they never will.

You can link all the made up bullshit articles you want, but thousands of actual vets who were there know the truth. You can ask them on the mall every Memorial Day.

Kerry's lies were exposed when he tried to whitewash his Winter Soldier history. He even lied about throwing his medals away in an anti-war protest. He is a liar, period.

[Dennis]

I came home in Feb. 1967 and returned to Idlewild(JFK) airport from Treasure Island and into civilian life without incident. I did witness over the years, the people following me home, the abuse and disrespect they endured. The Americans back then that supported Communism and our enemies considered themselves patriots in their own minds. They, and the people that emulate them today are my enemies.

[yyy]

Who cares? What is the point of rehashing the events of 30 years ago if not for more amunition to bash those who are against THIS war?

Everyone knows that Vietnam vets were not treated with the respect they deserved, ESPECIALLY since they went to Vietnam as part of a draft, not voluntarily.

Debated specific incidents that did or did not occur seems pretty sophmoric. Oh yeah, that is what is always on this blog. Never mind.

[Gordon]

Nice debunking work, Dan.

Can you believe these assholes who would today spit on a soldier if they could get away with it (I think the current national sentiment is still good enough that it would result in the spitter getting a royal beating), find it inconceivable that Vietnam vets would have been spit on?

[TheSpartan]

Dan is a Master Debator.

[yyy]

Oy god. Since when is being against the invasion of Iraq equate with spitting on troops? Only in your poor deluded mind.

[Cindi]

Q: What the hell kind of loser raises a family in a tent?? A: One that believes in homeschooling. Wow, that guy sounds like a TOTAL kook!!

Posted by: Artie | Saturday, February 03, 2007 at 03:12 PM

Artie, if you are going to quote me, at least get it right;

"There were around 30 vets who at first set up living in tents then eventually built homes, raised famalies."

And I'm betting you cannot and will not.

Posted by: Bill Adkins | Saturday, February 03, 2007 at 03:09 PM

This was 1969 there are no archives online for this story. How about you, can you pull up archived articles from your hometown news paper from the same year?

[dorkafork]

The man was 53 in 2003 making him 33 in 1973 making him one of the oldest LTs in the US Army!!! Sheesh!!

You need to work on your basic math skills.

[Cindi]

(I think the current national sentiment is still good enough that it would result in the spitter getting a royal beating), find it inconceivable that Vietnam vets would have been spit on?

Posted by: Gordon | Saturday, February 03, 2007 at 04:07 PM

Hi Gordon! Yes you are right about a royal beating now a day. I would give anyone the same for even debating if this ever occured. Are you picturing the same thing I am, as these jack offs sit at their computer and type? You know, sitting at their desk in high school, never being invited to the prom, football game? The John Kerry types of the world.

[Gordon]

"The man was 53 in 2003 making him 33 in 1973 making him one of the oldest LTs in the US Army!!! Sheesh!!

You need to work on your basic math skills."

Let him go... he's on a roll.

[TomB]

"Who cares? What is the point of rehashing the events of 30 years ago if not for more amunition to bash those who are against THIS war?

Everyone knows that Vietnam vets were not treated with the respect they deserved, ESPECIALLY since they went to Vietnam as part of a draft, not voluntarily.

Debated specific incidents that did or did not occur seems pretty sophmoric. Oh yeah, that is what is always on this blog. Never mind."

You seem to be missing the fact that this post is a RESPONSE to an article stating that mistreatment of Vietnam Vets, which you acknowledge, is a "myth".

If you have a complaint, take it to the people who wrote the article, not with Dan, who has proven it to be untrue.

[Gordon]

Hey Cin! Been a while.

"Are you picturing the same thing I am, as these jack offs sit at their computer and type? You know, sitting at their desk in high school, never being invited to the prom, football game? The John Kerry types of the world."

Bingo. I wonder if they've actually done anything positive with their lives. It's easy for them to piss and moan about the gov't, the military-industrial complex, etc. But besides consuming bandwidth and oxygen, I doubt the add anything of value.

[Serr8d]

What do soldiers want?

"Soldier, what is good in life?”

“To kill your enemies, see them driven before you, and return home with the grateful thanks of your country and free people everywhere!”

What do liberals rely on?

"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."...Robert E. Howard

...not that 'liberals' can be mistaken for 'civilized men'...

[Artie]

Newsflash for the koolaid-drinking sheep. Your brave little fairy tales about WMDs and abused military heros just dont wash. No facts to support any of it. No one believes you or, for that matter, really cares. Sure, a few flat-earth rednecks do, but who the hell cares what they think. Stay the course, keep losing your little Iraq adventure and even more seats in '08. Irrelevance suits you.

[TomB]

"Stay the course, keep losing your little Iraq adventure and even more seats in '08. Irrelevance suits you."

Hey artie, what's it like to actively root for the defeat of your country and the deaths of its military. You can whine that that isn't what you said, but in "reality", that's exactly what it is. You are actively counting on Iraq being a political liability for the Republicans, and in order for that to happen is for more deaths.

How do you sleep at night?

BTW, who told those "fairy tales" of WMDs? Or, to put a finer point on it, when the "fairy tales" were being told, who was pointing that out? If it was as obvious as you say, there must have been lots of people disputing the fact there were WMDs in Iraq.

Who were they?

[yyy]

They were everywhere. The UN inspectors for one. Our allies told us that many of the intelligence sources for the WMD, nukes program, mobile chemical labs, etc. were NOT CREDIBLE. Out own intelligence agencies had, at one time, told us the sources were not credible, but somehow Dick Cheney's visits to the CIA changed that.

If you actually have read anything about the specific pieces of "evidence" about WMD and the rest of the imaginary threats it would be crystal clear that it was massaged to get the conclusion that Bush wanted and that any questions within our own agencies were drastically downplayed. If only the liberal media had done its job we might have prevented this waste of lives and money.

I don't see any evidence that Bush has a plan to improve the Iraq situation, I don't believe our military believes in the surge idea either. I don't believe if we h aven't effectively trained the Iraqi's in 4 years that another six months is going to work any miracle.

The surge option is bullshit, it is another manifestation of Bush II's refusal to admit his policy is a failure.

[cranky]

Dan, I posted this at Ace's. Commenters there suggested commenting here as well. Thank you for resurrecting history the left would prefer to pretend never happened. A lot of us thank John Kerry for giving us the reputation we didn't earn. I've been on the receiving end of the left's love for those in uniform:

"A woman in the Dallas-Fort Worth airport a few days before Christmas in 1973 didn't spit on me but the memory of seeing the hate in her eyes for my uniform has never left me.

I know several Vietnam veterans who were spit on. I know of one family who, when their Marine son was killed in 1967, received telephone calls mocking his death. The loving and kind left, may they rot in hell."

BTW, John Kerry shot himself in the ass to get his third Heart and ticket home. He's a useless, cowardly POS.

[serr8d]

Artie (quite the gay nick, there, bub), the only thing that would suit you besides your male beau would be an unoccupied rosy-tailed sheep (or, lacking that, perhaps a good dose of your own WMD's (Whacko Mad Democraps), given to you orally by Sadly, No's own http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/serr8d/sadlynots2sm.jpg Retardo Montalban...isn't that you, there, with your mouth open?
;D