A Tale Of Two Films

Make a movie like Jesus Camp and you might be nominated for an academy award.

Make a film like Obsession and you might not find a distributor, while more and more college campuses seem to be reluctant to even show the film.

The documentary has become the latest flashpoint in the bitter campus debate over the Middle East, not just because of its clips from Arab television rarely shown in the West, including scenes of suicide bombers being recruited and inducted, but also because of its pro-Israel distribution network.

Each film is said to demonize aspects of a religion, one is heralded, the other all but banned.

Equality, baby! Yeah!

Comments

[Hard Right]

The left is allergic to reality/truth like Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite.

[Andrew]

Umm, maybe because bible-thumpers are entertaining??? I wish there was a film about how Pastor Ted got cured of the Gay. Hahaha.

[scarshapedstar]

"Each film is said to demonize aspects of a religion"

I've never understood how Jesus Camp "demonizes" anything. The directors offer no commentary, and everyone except Ted Haggard (hmm...) agrees that they were depicted fairly.

[Hard Right]

Andrew, if they cure Ted will you go next?

[Legalize]

Riehl didn't even *watch* Jesus Camp. The movie doesn't "demonize" anything; the woman /pastor who starred in the movie gave her stamp of approval over the whole thing. It's funny to hear wingers whining over "Obsession" not being able to find a distributor, like they always do when the free market rejects their loony *obsessions*. How sad that these welfare queens always resort to pouting when their "ideas" aren't subsidized. If there was a market to watch amateurish and hysterical propaganda, I'm sure the producers could find a distributor. The movie biz is the second most profitable industry in the world, second to the military. As it is, you guys have the right wing moron-o-sphere to satisfy your extremist urges.

It's almost as if the radical right is just a pathetic fringe minority of kooks with an over-inflated sense of its own relevance and acceptance within mainstream culture.

Imagine that.

[Oregonian]

Gosh, Dan, it's odd how you shortened the title to just "Obsession." It's almost like you didn't want to mention the real title, because it wouldn't play as well in your plea of martyrdom.

So tell us: Would you support the distribution of a film called “Obsession: Radical Christianity’s War Against the West”?

As you might say... Equality, baby! Yeah!

[seekeronos]

Hmmm. Lessee now...

Jesus Camp = unvarnished documentary about a particular sect of Christianity, namely, Charismatic, Pentecostal "Holy Roller" and etc.

They believe in a 6,000 year old earth, they listen to "Christian heavy metal", "laying on off hands" and numerous other things which are taken further than the context of the Bible passsages they may claim as the basis of thier practices.

These folks are certainly not representative of mainstream, or even much of Fundamentalist Christianity...

...but I still have to ask: What harm are they doing?

Contrast this with what the radical Islamists are shown doing in "Obsession...", and you tell me who is doing the greatest harm.

Kids "praying up" Bush, or Muslim kids being taught top blow themselves up for Allah and his bordello paradise?

[Legalize]

Seek, the movement in "Jesus Camp" purports to train children to be holy warriors and to die (if necessary) in the name of their faith. Again, if anyone thought they could make money distributing "Obsession," that company would do it. "Passion of the Christ" made money, and also got critical attention. Could it possibly be that "Obsession" isn't a very good or entertaiing movie, whether or not you agree with its premise? I've seen parts of it, and without knowing anything about it at the time I wasn't sure if was a parody or a real movie. Doesn't it clock in at over 3 hours as well?

[Legalize]

Sorry, it's an hour. I was thinking of a different movie.

[seekeronos]

Legalize:

I can tell you this much. If in fact it is promoting young children to become "holy warriors" in the sense of killing other people like Islam teaches - then it is just as wrong.

If they are teaching them to strap bombs to themselves and to then detonate themselves in public places, then it is definitely wrong, and completely contrary to the Gospel of Christ.

However, if the teaching to "die for the sake of Christ" - meaning to suffer and endure persecution and hardship and death at the hands of some vicious person who is killing them for thier faith, then - however unlikely that may be at present within the USA that might be, then it is in accordance with what Christians have done from the founding of the Church (that is, the greater community of Christian believers) 2000 years ago until present.

A key difference in "martyr" (from the ancient Greek "marturos" or "witness") is that a Christian may die for Christ by giving up his life under the sword of his persecutor; for a Muslim, it means taking down as many of the "kuffar" as you can with you.

If you are unable to see that difference, I invite you to think harder about it.

[Hard Right]

(Legalize) I invite you to think...

Seekeronos, lost cause.

[Zifnab]

Wait, wait. Slow down guys. Let's talk about all the merits of Obsession. They showed it on FOX News, for starters. Four times just in that one weekend.

And the movie made a timely release, on November 2 just five days before the election.

The documentary takes an excellent even-handed approach to Islam: "The film takes the position that there is no middle ground for radical Islamists -- or Islamic fascists, to use the phrase invoked by President Bush. “Obsession” is filled with fiery speeches, from the Middle East to the streets of London and New York, in which Islamic extremists offer a stark choice for the world: either convert to a Taliban-like form of Islam or face death.

This is not a point for debate or something we can negotiate our way out of." ~ FOX News

How can you poo-poo a documentary which unequivically lays out the honest truth? "THEY WANT TO KILL US! THEY WANT TO KILL US! THEY WANT TO KILL US!" is a deep and philosophical look at how modern everyday islamofascists see The Great Satan, America. How do you get more excellent or more even-handed than that? It's not the director's fault that in this black and white world we live in, with absolutely no shades of gray, Muslims everywhere want to kill us?

How this movie escaped an Oscar nomination - heck, they wouldn't even allow the trailer on GoogleVideo - just proves that everyone has a liberal bias and the Jews control the media.

[Legalize]

Ah, so you haven't seen the movie, seek? Riehl? Soft Right? *shocker*

The movement DOES aim to teach children to fight, kill, and die for the cause. The woman who runs the church made a number of specific references to the tactics and teachings of radical Islamic schools, and how she must counter that teaching by taking up the same means. No, she does not get more specific.

But, yet again, the merits of the actions and teachings on either side are immaterial to whether or not Obsession should have an easier time finding a distributor. The fact distributors didn't find much appeal in an alarmist "documentary" that purports to be the ANSWER to the debate, is pretty predictable. People don't care for preachy / alarmist movies propogated by the deranged and utterly paranoid. If they want to watch something like that, 24 is on once a week, and Faux News is on 24/7. Seriously - the market is quite limited for such a movie.

[BobInStamford]

Koolaid-drinking Jesus freaks, like car wrecks, are the stuff that people like to see. I saw that movie - AMAZING stuff.

[seekeronos]

OK, ok. I'll suck it up and go see the jesuscamp movie - if only because I am hard pressed to beleive that anyone espousing Christianity as thier faith would really teach that "jihadist" tactics.

Honestly, it's not my cup of tea, since the much of doctrine they (the church group in the movie) embraces is somewhat far off from what I endorse as solid, Biblical Christianity (for example, the woman "pastor" you mentioned).

But the interesting thing here is how easily a movie that is representative of a 1% outer fringer of Christianity intended to be taken by the viewing public as "typical Christianity" by the makers of that movie... which is much more the case than it was with the radical Islam shown by "Obsession..."

The stuff in "Obsession..." seems to be nearly an every-day occurence, whereas I have yet to hear of frequent attacks by "Christian radicals" in malls or buses or airplanes.

Again, I say:

Compare the Messenger and His Message - is it one of death, lies, and destruction (Allah) ?

Or is it one of peace, life everlasting, and hope?

And among those who name Christ as thier Lord, it should be pretty evident whose are truly His, because thier lives will bear the fruit of it. Not everyone who says that they are Christian are necessarily His followers.

[BobInStamford]

Good God man - it's THEIR, not THIER. Remember: I before E except after C. Got it??? You must have gone to bible college or something.

[seekeronos]

I went to a state school actually.

And when I am bothered to actually want your opinion on my spelling, I'll ask,.... mmm'kay, Bobberoos?

[BobInStamford]

Someone needs to correct you - its obvious that whatever diploma mill you went to didnt bother to.

[Zifnab]

"But the interesting thing here is how easily a movie that is representative of a 1% outer fringer of Christianity intended to be taken by the viewing public as "typical Christianity" by the makers of that movie... which is much more the case than it was with the radical Islam shown by "Obsession..." "

Go down to Deerborn, Michagen with a video camera and show me one-tenth of the craziness you saw in Obsession. I'll give you a $100 if you can find one car in flames, one guy touting an AK, or one pre-teen who wants to blow himself up.

I agree, Jesus Camp is definitely not normal. Ted Haggard wasn't normal either. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dobson, etc, all live on the fringe of accepted Christianity. Heck, even the Pope isn't what most American Catholics would call "mainstream". Honestly, if the Academy Awards were less political, I would have expected to see one of the Bagdad documentaries pick up the win.

What's bizzare about Jesus Camp is what was bizzare about David Koresh and the crazy guy who wanted to kill himself and ride off on the back of that meteor. You don't expect this level of wacko in America. The documentary of that is very revealing.

[Legalize]

"But the interesting thing here is how easily a movie that is representative of a 1% outer fringer of Christianity intended to be taken by the viewing public as "typical Christianity" by the makers of that movie... which is much more the case than it was with the radical Islam shown by "Obsession...""

Again, the movie DOESN'T DO THIS. It makes almost no commentary at all. The bulk of the narration and commentary comes from the individuals involved with the Camp - the same people who gave the thumbs up to the production and the message that came across.

And for the record, I didn't think the picture was award-worth either. I thought it was a bit dull and long.

[Oregonian]

"The stuff in "Obsession..." seems to be nearly an every-day occurence, whereas I have yet to hear of frequent attacks by "Christian radicals" in malls or buses or airplanes."

Really? You must not get out much.

I don't know of any medical centers in the United States that have been attacked by radical Muslims, but I can give you a long list of clinics that have been attacked by radical Christians.

I don't know of any doctors who wear bulletproof vests to protect themselves from Muslim assassins, but I know of doctors who are doing so to protect themselves from Christian assassins.

I don't know of any home-grown Muslim terrorists who have committed a series of murders in different cities across the country and sparked a massive manhunt, but I still remember the hunt for our own Christian terrorist, Eric Rudolph.

All in all, Christian terrorism in the United States has resulted in the killing of 7 people, including 3 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort. According to NARAL, "opponents of choice have directed more than 4,200 reported acts of violence against abortion providers since 1977, including bombings, arsons, death threats, kidnappings, and assaults, as well as more than 92,000 reported acts of disruption, including bomb threats and harassing calls." According to the National Abortion Federation, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidences of trespassing, 1264 incidences of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid.

That's the reality of "every-day occurences," seekeronos. If you're not seeing these things, it's only because you're not looking.

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issues/abortion/access-to-abortion/clinic-violence/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

[seekeronos]

Troll-breath:

Last time I checked, the State University of New York system wasn't a degree mill... but only if you say so, O Great Elite Bob, the Poobah of the University Accreditations.

I bet you stayed up all night thinking of that little jab, didn't you...? Go back to whatever little McMall you frequent at try to get a job maybe "Hot Topic" or McDonald's is hiring; stop sponging off of Mommy and Daddy's and do something productive instead of using up our natural resources like a greedy little communist wannabe.

Zifnab:

The USA is not yet a hotbed of outright Islamic extremism. It is more of base for the "intellectual" front end of the Jihad, by such seditious groups as CAIR and its allies in the ACLU. Here, the doubletalk (al-Taqiyya) and squelching of opposing views and denial of reality are standard fare for Jihadists who are waging thier own "war for the hearts and minds" of average Americans.

To what little credit should be given them, they are doing a smashingly good job of fleecing us (the American public) on one side, while pulling the wool over our eyes on the other.

As for Dearborn, MI or many other places in the USA with a significant Muslim enclave - the fear of the (armed) American majority, as well as law enforcement's ability to suppress rebellions/insurections (say, relative to that of France or the UK) by said population keeps the radical fringe of American Islam in check.

That 2nd Ammendment and private gun ownership thing we Americans are fond of really bites some of you hippies in the gishkas, doesn't it? :) Of course, y'all are working double-overtime to get rid of that wee nuisance, or legislate traps around it.

Add to that the relative stability that they enjoy here, vs. what they could expect to have on the average in thier original homelands = less reason to burn cars and rape women and all the other things that are happening in Paristan in particular, and Al-France in general.

I'm ot saying that all Muzzies are Christian- and Jew- kill-crazy mad-dogs... some actually want to make an honest living.

But when the "gospel call" for Mohammed gets louder, and Muzzies decide to get religion, it will be the murderous religion of an evil Mesopotamian moon god that calls out for the blood of Christians and Jews and all other non-believers (including secular-humanists and atheists... ha! don't think for a minute that you will be spared)...

When the conditions are right, quite a few mMuslim-"Americans" will pick up a gun or a bomb-belt. Expect that to change as more people "convert" to Islam, or we import even more foreign/Saudi-subsidized imams here.

[seekeronos]

Oregonian:

Figures from 1977 until present?

The folks commiting acts against abortion mills can hardly be called Christians (since Christ never commanded His followers to assault people, as far as my Bible reads)... neverthless, I'd say that the death score of 7 deaths for abortion mill bombers vs. 3000+ for the muzzies (9-11) or the dozen or so people killed by the Beltway Killer a few years ago, or the five killed/four wounded recently by Sulejman Talovic stack up?

Bear in mind this is restricting the argument only within USA borders.

Expand it to the global scene, it would be hard to compare Muslim and Christian acts of murder and violence (remember, the motivation is killings committed under commonly understood teachings, endorsed by the leading scholars and of the authority of those religions' holy scriptures, the Bible and Koran, respectively.

I think the Muslim-caused death toll would blow away that of Christains by several orders of magnitude.

[BobInStamford]

McJobs? Are you insulting fast-food workers? You should be forced to remove one of your yellow ribbon magnets (made in China) from your minivan for that.

[Hard Right]

Seekeronos, don't forget the guy who murdered people at the Empire States Building. His familly just admitted he did it because he wanted to punish America for it's support of Israel, being the great satan, etc.

Do you lefties REALLY want to have a pissing match as to whose side has spawned more terrorists? Because you WILL LOSE BADLY.

[mightyjoeyoung]

\"Christ never commanded his followers to assault people...\"

Jesus Christ never mentioned homosexuality either, but \"Christians\" seem to be religiously motivated to hate homosexuals.

[scarshapedstar]

"I'll suck it up and go see the jesuscamp movie - if only because I am hard pressed to beleive that anyone espousing Christianity as thier faith would really teach that "jihadist" tactics."

Pay special attention to the part where the woman at the center of the film expresses genuine admiration for the madrassas that give children the faith to use hand grenades.

[Phoenix]

I think Zifnab said it... something about what the shock is is that there are such whackos in this country. No kidding.

Religious verbal matches are a waste of time because there is no 'all ye, all ye in come free' at the end. No winners.

I have a few blog experiences with Christians and Muslims that demonstrate something kind of creepy, and it's just my experience and observation, so take it for that.

I was on a blog that showed all twelve of the Mohammed cartoons. The comments still get hit and most are from Muslims. The majority are vicious and threatening, but a large portion of the comments are very well written comments that almost seem to plead for understanding. ('plead' is not the best word... enjoin, maybe)

The other time was on the largest Christian blog where I happened to say Michael Graham was wrong in stating: "Islam is a terrorist organization." I have never in my life seen such hatred and such vengeful talk in my life. I was in the mood for it so stayed to defend myself, but nothing I said made one bit of difference, and the attacks were relentless - for about 143 comments. I was worn out and beat-up, but as Zifnab said, I was more than anything totally dumbstruck that such whacko are out there. By the way, I kept my cool and never said a word against Christianity - just maintained my stance that Graham was wrong and kept going over why he was wrong.

Here is what I perceived as the difference in the cartoon thread and the Graham thread: The arrogance of some Christians is mind-boggling. It is a pure arrogance that reeks of self-righteousness. The delusion that their hatred of me was justified is, to me, insidiously frightening because it emanates from 'civilized' people.

How do I finish my point that I'm having trouble with here.. Islam is a religion/culture. They live their religion and have their fringe element. Christianity is not our culture. Christians choose to parse their religion to fit into the culture they want.

My attitude is that God would be great without religion. These two movies are perfect examples....some little Jesus camp twit saying God doesn't like a church that isn't charismatic? yeah....

[Oregonian]

Seekeronos, you were the sad fool who started this discussion by saying that you had "yet to hear of frequent attacks by 'Christian radicals.'"

Now you've heard of them. End of story.

[seekeronos]

Heh. "I'm a sad fool".

Actually, you are right about the "fool" part, as that is something endemic to humanity; the Bible also says that men are by nature, "stupid and brutish" (Jeremiah 51:17).

Unlike you, I am readily willing to admit that I am a mere mortal and subject to errors and foolishness. Thanks be to God that "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 1:25, KJV)

Nevertheless, though I be considered a fool in the looney left's eye... I am actually quite happy, because God had mercy to open my eyes to the Salvation which is in His Christ, and also to see through some of the lies of the devil that most people, who as BobInSockPuppetLand would say, as sheep, so easily follow.

That being said, I'd be wrong to say that Christians are without sin, or any less prone to falling into error. I'll say it over and over that abortions - particularly of the "recreational birth control" variety are a travesty and a crime against God Almighty, in that it destroys children - a subset of people God tends to feel very strongly about.

You see, God has a particular love for the weaker people (such as children) i.e. "Woe to him that causes one of these little ones to stumble, for it would be better for him that a millstone was hung around his neck, and he were cast into the sea".

BUT:

This does not by any means justify attacking abortion mill doctors, or mailing fetuses to VIPs, or other socially repugnant acts.

(Civilised) Protests? Sure. Letters to the Editor? Go for it. Voting for Pro-Life politicians who will work to change the aberrant law protecting abortion? Definitely.

I think that for the most part, this is more the typical venue for Christians, rather than the very fringe who (unbiblically) go out of thier way to do violence, thinking that they are doing God a favour.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19, KJV)

Insofar as these (relatively few) individuals commit these acts of violence you allege, they are either not Christians, or if they are, they are operating so far out of God's will that they really should step back for a while and "examine themselves, to see if they are in the faith". (2 Corinthians 13:5-10, KJV)

Turning back to my original line of reasoning however, if we are inclined to do a body count from both *true, Biblical Christianity* (note my qualification of "Christianity" very carefully) against Islam interpreted strictly according to the Koran and the Hadiths, it would be hard to repudiate that Islam's body count is substantially greater than Christianity.

*For the record, my opinion of the brand of "christianity" depicted in the trailers I've seen thus far of Jesuscamp is pretty far away from true, Biblical Christianity. It seems to be a particular brand of extremely charismatic Pentecostalism, blended with unbiblical ideas (women as pastors, laying on of hands by the laiety (Biblically, this is reserved for use by church elders, and then used by them for extremely ill believers on point of death)

The example of the kids doing the "air hands of prayer" for a cardboard cut-out of Bush narrowly borders on idolatry.

I've yet to see the film in whole, so I cannot confirm the bit about madrassas being an inspiration for this woman, but as far as I will take your word for it... it would be as far removed from being scripturally sound as anything I can think of.

I will stand by my argument that this is not typical behaviour from a genuinely saved, Bible-believing Christian.

On the other hand, a Muslim who is doing his best to obey the Hadiths and the Koran has little choice but to kill, lie, and destroy to propagate his religion.

MightyJoeYoung: " Jesus Christ never mentioned homosexuality either, but \"Christians\" seem to be religiously motivated to hate homosexuals."

Well, this is a bit of a non-sequitur... but I'll bite.

Jesus did not mention homosexuality... probably because it was practically a non-issue to the (mostly) devout Jewish audience He addressed throughout the majority of His earthly ministry. This was likely due to the fact that homosexuality was considered to be extremely abhorrent to the Jews; and being that Jesus Himself was a Jew born under the Law of Moses, He saw no need to preach on it.

In fact, the first place New Testament teachings about it appear is in Corinth, a Greek city, where homosexual practices were also largely tied into the pagan worship of various fertility gods. Paul elaborated on it there, and also in Rome (Romans 1:18-32) as well as sexual immorality in general (regardless of gender and supposed sexual preferences/orientations)

But despite all of that, homosexuality is not a major focus of Biblical Christianity.

Saving the souls of men and women is.

Jesus certainly saves straight and gay folk every day; and He most certainly can clean them up after they are saved. It is what God does especially well - saving souls and making them new - (Romans 6).