Whatever

Human Rights Watch claims to have debunked ZombieTime's posts on the Red Cross ambulance strikes in Lebanon.

I tried to caution people throughout about drawing definite conclusions, though I also confess to falling into the trap, myself. I have too many posts on the story, which I was covering before anyone else August 1. My first response to ZombieTime even challenged ZT for drawing conclusions. I urged people to slow down on August 29.

As the originator of the Red Cross Ambulance story, I would urge the elements of the blogosphere still running with the story to at least slow down, if not back up. They are increasingly looking like the very drive by media against which we so often rant, running the risk of being exploited by propagandists on another side of an issue. And no matter how much many of us may support that side, propagandists on both sides do exist. For the record, I'm guilty, too.

The fact is ZombieTime's post does not do what it claims, proving the ambulance attack demonstrably false.

I posted evidence which was pro media on September 3, because that's what I found. That was basically my last word on the matter.

Allowing HRW to make this a debunking of blogs isn't correct. You'd have to consider all blogs to make that claim. And the full objective view can't be assumed to be found in any one place because some bloggers gave it the most buzz.

Comments

[Purple Avenger]

HRW are lying. The physical evidence doesn't back up their claims.

Where's the blood? Severed legs bleed...a lot. That mattress should be covered in blood stains.

Where's the missile head? Just pointing at a hole in the road and claiming there's a missile at the bottom of it is bullshit. Dig it up - show me the fragments, submit them for independent metallurgical analysis. They gotta be there...right? right?

This is phony as a $3 bill.

[Dan Riehl]

This is phony as a $3 bill

Could be. Unfortunately the evidence to establish certainty will have to come from the ground.

[Purple Avenger]

Further...if the missile "penetrated deeply into the pavement." with a SMALL exit hole in the floor and pavement, what explains the LARGE entry hole with INWARDLY bent little perforations all around it in the roof?

The interior of that vehicle should be a shrap junkyard with all those holes in the roof. Not a single pic of any of it though. Curious, curious indeed.

And all those little holes -- wassup wit dat shit? If the missile fragged ABOVE the vehicle (the tissue paper vanishing missile theory), how come a lump makes it down to penetrate the pavement? Is this a tissue missile or a penetrator? Or a tissue that reconstitutes itself on entry to then become a penetrator (good trick that!)

[Purple Avenger]

Hey man - I'm an engineer - I specialize in what is possible in the real world under the established laws of physics. HRW's story is full of physically impossible shit.

If they want to make a case, make it, but let the story at least support the physical evidence.

[Purple Avenger]

Look at the floor mat around the supposed hole in the floor of the vehicle. Does it look like a missile went through it? It looks like it was cut with a sheetrock knife - much too clean a cut on the left and top side (the only parts really visible).

Look at the flange on the vent. Its not concaved enough to fit through the hole in the roof. The flange was wide where it bolts down - it would need to be bent concaved to around 45 degrees all the way around to have slipped through the hole in the roof.

They're claiming two things here - the missile was fast enough to punch a hole through the vent, yet slow enough to tear the vent loose and shove it into the vehicle (which is NOT where it was "found" as I understand). There's a fine velocity balancing act between punching through sheet metal and tearing it loose enough to carry it through.

The HRW pics are less detailed and from (amazingly) poorer angles than what Rob had ferchrisakes.

Its a sham Dan. Don't get sucked in.

[Dan Riehl]

Don't get sucked in.

I'm not, PA. Saying something is inconclusive based upon web research isn't getting sucked in. The reporting was sloppy nomatter what happened. But without being on the ground, I'm not going to argue something can be 100% conclusive when, imo, it can't be.

[uptight]

If HRW want to brand Zombie's report as "conjecture" they have to supply facts.

All they seem to have come up with is a theory that Israel was secretly using some special new weapons designed to do little damage. To make matters worse, they even admit to having no evidence to back up this theory.

I also think it's pretty lame - possibly dangerous - for them to be lambasting a blogger for not believing the media. The onus should be on the mainstream media to prove their allegations, not on the public to believe reports without questioning obvious contradictions and weaknesses in the evidence presented.

[Purple Avenger]

I'll argue that physics/engineering principles are 100% conclusive and a picture CAN INDEED tell you if some particular story is BS. If something can't work, it can't work. There is no magic. Shear strength, elastic/inelastic deformations, burst strength, blah, blah, blah are all well understood. If someone's story doesn't fit the (claimed) physical evidence, it is by definition BS.

The vehicles may have been hit by something, but that something couldn't possibly have behaved the way HRW claims.

[Bruce]

Dan, my own response to all this is to adopt a rule of thumb that all such reports are lies till proven otherwise.

It's the boy who cried wolf, and these guys clearly missed that class.

When I see on the news 'Palestinians killed' I think 'Yeah right!' and change the channel.

It's not cynicism, rather it is the nanny's way of encouraging children to grow up by ignoring their tantrums.

[Dan Riehl]

It's not cynicism

Well, yes it is cynicism. But, so what? I've always been a cynic. I am not arguing a position that we believe everything we read, or even see. I question most things fromthe media. But proving them wrong and saying they might b wrong are two different things, unfortunately.

[DANEgerus]

The ambulance didn't get hit by a missile. The vent was removed as illustrated by the exposed metal, and comparable ambulances, and the unburned interior.

I think the problem is similar to dealing with the 911-truthers, you grant them credibility by getting bogged down in all the details. The Red-Cross/Red-Crescent and MSMs lied.

The photos prove it. End of story.

HRW has no more credibility given their Jew-hating legacy. Should we expect them to admit that the Red-Cross/Red-Crescent and MSMs lied?

What about the AP's collaboration with the Qana-hoax and the suppression of photos showing Hezbollah firing rockets from Lebanese military bases?

That... was NEWS. All the MSMs were supplying was agenda.

[merkur]

These comments are bizarre. "If HRW want to brand Zombie's report as "conjecture" they have to supply facts"? Uh, no. Let's define conjecture as "a statement, opinion, or conclusion based on guesswork" (American Heritage Dictionary). From Zombie's rebuttal of the HRW report: "I do not have the resources, free time or political stature to go to Lebanon to inspect the scene on-site myself. All I can do is forensically analyze the evidence presented by others." Essentially, the Zombie theory is built on second-hand photos and confused media reports; if you don't think that fits the definition of "conjecture", then we're into a pointless semantic discussion.

HRW claim to be presenting facts based on research carried out on the ground; these can be disputed as you wish, but the burden of proof is clearly on Zombie. No offense, Purple Avenger, but you haven't seen any "physical evidence" of any kind; you've seen some photos that have been posted on the internet, the provenance of which you doubt in the first place and the authenticity of which cannot be verified. That's not "physical evidence" of any kind.

Dan, you are a voice of reason. There may be some sort of fraud going on here, but the "evidence" presented on blogs isn't substantial enough to support it.

[zombie]

I've responded to HRW's new report with a detailed rebuttal of my own:

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/hrw/

Read it and judge for yourself if HRW has succeeded in proving anything at all.