Natalee Holloway Suspects Back To Court

Fox News is reporting that while Dutch authorities are traveling to Aruba in the over a year old investigation, the three primary suspects in the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway are heading to court to petition to have themselves cleared, as no new evidence has emerged in over a year.

Developing ...

Comments

[thejohnson8]

All the hoopla this story has caused here and not one comment yet. Have we lost interest or is it a lost cause?

[kaycee77025]

There hasn't been evidence of any crime against Natalee from the beginning. It's funny, but Richard Jewell would probably be in jail for the bomb he found if the FBI hadn't been so ham handed. I have to assume xxx thinks he's guilty.

[jackson80]

why kaycee do you deliberately, month after month, ignore the FACT that the judge who has held joran to be a suspect had to have some evidence to make that decision, you are just fooling yourself, but no one else is buying your garbage.

[offonatangent]

He had the "evidence" that JVS was the last person who admitted to being with Natalee before she disappeared. This isn't the USA - suspects can be held for MONTHS merely on a suspicion and the admission that Joran was with Natalee. After being held as a JUVENILE and questioned daily WITHOUT a lawyerr OR a parent present no further evidence was forthcoming. As there was no NEW info after MONTHS of intense questioning Joran was released. It has now been a year + and not a single shred of new evidence against any of the three. If they could not be held on the ORIGINAL EVIDENCE they are entitled to be released as suspects. They have already been "cleared" so to speak by the original incarceration and questioning. With nothing NEW to hold them as suspects, they are entitled to be released. In the USA, NONE of them would never have spent a second in jail and 2 of them would NEVER have been questioned without a lawyer AND parent present.

Like it or don't, there isn't enough evidence to continue to consider J2K as suspects. Hate and suspicion by Americans who are not even citizens of their country means very little to the judiciary - just as it would mean little to OUR judiciary if the situation was reversed. Heck here, the victims family would not have even had the satisfaction of the 3 being arrested. In the US they wouldn't even be "officially" suspects on the tiny speck of circumstantial evidence and an unconfirmed disappearance of an ADULT.

Unless something new comes up it's gonna be "Game Over" on the endless saga of JK2 and Natalee. Lest we forget - there is no proof a crime or death even occured.

[Shari]

I still check in here for updates on this case.
Natalee will never be forgotten.

[Mike]

Good Grief Tangent,

There's no evidence because they never looked for it, How is is possible to get evidence if you wait 10 days to start collecting it.

But my guess is your right...they will release them as suspects probably right around election day or during some other event as to not arouse too much attention.

[Alee]

I'm like you Shari... just waiting for that day.

[jackson80]

tangent, there was a shred more evidence than being the last person known to be with her. Please don't try
to act simple minded or pretend that you actually know what the judge wrote in his order. until then you know,
you can live with the thought that the judge found evidence (more evidence than you are claiming to know about)
thanks for destroying your credibility as a poster.

[offonatangent]

jackson80 -1st I could care less what YOU think of my credibility. Let me speak clearly - cage rattling goons are not my reason for posting.

Now, on to this so called pile of evidence the judge "may" have - simply, there isn't any. If there was, dear JVS would still be in custody and awaiting trial per Aruban law. He was released (D'0OH) because there WAS NO NEW EVIDENCE TO HOLD HIM OR RE-ARREST and there have been no developments relating to his guilt since. There is simply no further proof of any kind JVS or any of the three did anything "bad" to Natalee or that Natalee is even dead.

Hello - Joran's father Paulus was not only recently declared by the judge NOT TO HAVE BEEN A SUSPECT EVER but was also awarded a financial settlement for false imprisonment and damage to his reputation since it was found the arrest was done solely to put pressure on Joran - who was in custody at the time. Bet that is a bitter pill to some - because since Joran had no more info to tell, it didn't work AND cost them later.

I have been following this since day one and have done fairly extensive reading and research. There is no question in my mind that JK2 or PVS didn't "disappear" Natalee. There simply wasn't time nor opportunity and these 3 are just not that smart or connected. A conspiracy beyond the 3 (even +dad) would have been exposed long ago. That SOMETHING happened I have no doubt but someone else has the answers - if indeed anyone besides Natalee does. My opinion is she drowned (alone or not) and will never be found. If there was a witness the story may come out eventually but otherwise we must accept that we will never know what happened to Natalee FOR SURE.

[brent]

I guess lying about two black suspects is normal if you are innocent. Give me a break. These boys are good at keeping their mouths shut but I am sure they know what happened to the girl.

[kaycee77025]

brent, what does that have to do with evidence?

[sue-m]

I'm with tangent here. There is no evidence that JVDS & the other two did it. Maybe Natalee did drown. We know that she had been drinking steadily that day, plus she had taken pills. Maybe she had a reaction and died, maybe she drowned because of that, whether she was alone or not. There are so many possibilities and scenarios as to what could have happened to her. Personally, I think GVC did it but with his family standing I don't think he'll ever be charged. What happened to the "forensic evidence" that was on that shirt on the beach? Was there proof against him and "lost?" Will we ever know?

[Mike]

Sue,

Theres no proof what so ever Natalee took drugs on her own accord.

The problem I have if Joren and crew are completely innocent wht the lies, why allow 2 innocent men to sit in jail for 10 days, why is Joren's father telling the boys "If there is no body there is no case" so early on in the investigation. Why does Joren have at least 3 different accounts as to how he got home.

As far as evidence, we all know there probably is scant or none at all, but there is a reason for that also.

I believe in time we will have those answers....crime cases have taken years to finally be resolved.

[kaycee77025]

Mike, why is there scant evidence? If there were some evidence, could it have been destroyed by the initial searches, or just lost over the time of the search? Would that be the reason for Beth's irrational attack on the whole people of Aruba?

If you know something we don't, why not share it?

[xxx]

Life is not like CSI, most cases do not have 100% incontrovertible physical/forensic evidence of guilt.

Circumstantial evidence is evidence, statements are evidence. False exculpatory statements are evidence.

The standard of evidence and of reasonable doubt is not 'maybe X happened, so we have to acquit" if that were the standard then virtually no one would ever be convicted of any crime since a good lawyer can always come up with an alternative theory to fit evidence/statements or lack thereof...the standard is how reasonable that theory is.

It is not a particularly reasonable theory that Natalee Holloway drowned, fully clothed and none of her remains washed ashore or showed up anywhere. It does not fit the way the current flows, it does not fit the physical capacity of a drunk/passed out person to get themselves hundreds of yards offshore. Therefore while it is remotely possible, it isn't plausible or reasonable which is why even the keystone Aruban cops have never floated it.

Same with the runaway theory. There isn't a shred of credible evidence that Natalee Holloway was ever anywhere alive after she left C&C with Joran and K2. If there was any credible evidence that Natalee was back at the HI that night Joran and K2 would have been cleared long ago, they probably wouldn't have been suspected at all in the first place.

The most plausible theory that fits with the evidence is that WHATEVER happened to Natalee it happened in the presence of Joran van der Sloot and he is responsbile for disposing of her. It is clear that either he or K2 are still to this day lying about that night, which a reasonable person would have to conclude they are lying because the truth is inculpatory.

[mylena]

@xxx I really can come up with more plausible (it's hard I think to look upon this with an open mind) scenario's than that.... it really isn't the only plausible theory, and if tried here, i think any lawyer can proove that and when you do Joran would have been acquitted too here.

[xxx]

I've never said there was enough evidence against Joran for a conviction, I think he's guilty and even I would have to admit that if I was on a jury and the charge was anything more than sexual battery against an incapacitated person I would have to vote not guilty for lack of evidence.

But I believe Joran is responsible for her death and disappearance. I also believe he raped her.

I have been shocked at how many people have simply discounted multiple false alibi stories told by Joran and mulitple other gratuious lies as if this doesn't matter or isn't evidence of a consciousness of guilt.

There is a world of difference between being guilty and being proven guilty in a court of law.

[katie]

Does anyone know how the family is doing?

[Mike]

Kaycee,

I know it's a fact that Aruban LE didn't even start looking for evidence for at least 10 days maybe up to 14....it took that long before the Kalpoe's car and only part of the Van De Sloot residence was searched...thats why there is no evidence.

In the US if the last known person to see a missing person was found to lie to the police...that person would have been checked out right away not 2 weeks later.

As far as the drowning theory I hear all the time, I believe they did tests with a dummy to show that the body would have washed back up on shore...not out to see. And as xxx stated even the Arubans don't think this is a resonable scenerio.

[xxx]

"Screw you"

Said like a true supporter of Joran van der Sloot! When the facts are not on your side, attack.

Attack any and every one who doesn't agree that its totally normal for 17 year olds to be under care of a psychologist for lying/stealing and fighting and who think that at least 3 false alibi statements and a host of other lies are proof of innocence not guilt.

Attack any and everything related to Natalee Holloway, her family, her friends and her home town because if anyone dares to criticize the sporter for subverting a missing persons investigation, lying repeatedly, by his own statement leaving a passed out girl on the beach, being promiscuious or god forbid suspecting him of the same crimes that the Aruban police suspect him of....then BY GOD they are going to make sure to drag Natalee down to his level, facts be dammed.

I have never never seen such a group of disgusting, vile, hypoocrites as the nutjobs who support van der Sloot.

[mylena]

I'm convinced that when more people are involved, Joran, the brothers, dad, that some day the truth comes out some day.

[mylena]

In my mind I still wished that Nathalee's travellers would have stayed on the island, or would have flown back for investigation. I always found that awkward. I know in the American mind it would be impossible that maybe just maybe one of them did it.

[david r]

Natalee is in a fish trap in about 2,000 feet of water, about as far out as the Gottenbos' boat can take you. The boys drugged her for sex, but she overdosed, probably from hard liquor and the drugs they slipped her. After they were through raping her, she died on them. Then the boys ran to Paulus, and he took care of the rest.

[xxx]

That's what I used to think but the statements have almost convinced me that while I believe K2 did witness a sexual assault and may have participated, they had nothing to do with disposing of Natalee and she was alive when they left her alone with Joran.

I also don't think that Paulus helped Joran dispose of the body, I believe he knew and knows that his son is/was lying but is in denial about Joran and has been for a long time, he probably coached him by floating hypothetical scenarios to help Joran craft his second false story...his memory problems are just another effort not to contradict his lying son...

I think that however she died, probably from a drug Joran slipped her or from a struggle with him, that Joran simply got lucky. He most likely put her body in a dumpster or swam with her out past the sandbar and let the current take her.

Joran will never confess, Natalee will never be found, so the case will never be officially solved.

However, it's possible that given Joran's borderline personality that karma may catch up with him sooner or later, one can only hope.

[kaycee77025]

xxx, why should an innocent Joran confess? Is Joran not confessing is evidence of his guilt?

Do you think Joran has a borderline personality, or did you get something none of us have? You state it like it's common knowledge when I think it's just another of your many fantasies.

[xxx]

Well, let's see now.

He was under the care of a psychologist at age 17.

He, his father and his mother have all said his problems included lying, stealing and fighting...and this is what they admit to on TV.

He, himself, admitted to having multiple sex partners whose last names he did not know, group sex and that his hobby was casual sex/physical flings.

He, himself, indicated that he needs more than 20 drinks or a case of beer to get drunk.

The number of lies he has already been caught in as far as the night of May 30th are practically too numerous to count.

He repeatedly tried to throw K2 under the bus by alternatly claiming K2 dropped him off first and left w/Natalee, that 'maybe' it was Deepak who raped and burried her at the beach and that first Deepak and then Satish gave him a ride home, though they both deny it.

He, himself, admitted that he left Natalee passed out, alone on the beach in one of his many versions of the story.

There are multiple sources including his friends that speak to his temper and propensity to get into fights...throwing the homeless man off the bridge, 'accidentally' 'falling' into a guy, pushing him into a plate glass window.

--------------------------------------------
What kind of person does this sound like?

This is much, much more than normal wild teenage behavior.

[xxx]

Ya, the only source we have for Natalee hitting on him his Joran.

Who also said:

-She called him her lucky charm and he won money for her at the casino. A PROVEN LIE.

-He did not dance with her. A PROVEN LIE.

-He took her to the Holiday Inn. A PROVEN LIE.

-She was drunk to the point of 'falling asleep AND/OR practically sober. ONE VERSION IS A LIE.

-He walked home/got a ride home. ONE VERSION IS A LIE.

-------------------------------

He's about as trustworthy as a child whose face is smeared with chocolate saying he did not have any cholocate.

[xxx]

You are a disgusting pig, and that's the last time I respond to you. Hopefully, karma will get you too and you will learn what it feels like to lose someone you love and have a bunch of disgusting, hypocritically nutjobs call her a slut/whore/tramp...or, maybe something similar will happen to you...in a just world.

[xxx]

You are a disgusting pig, and that's the last time I respond to you. Hopefully, karma will get you too and you will learn what it feels like to lose someone you love and have a bunch of disgusting, hypocritically nutjobs call her a slut/whore/tramp...or, maybe something similar will happen to you...in a just world.

[xxx]

hehehe,

You must be a friend of Joran's ey?

A pathological hater of women, denier of female sexuality and probable serial date rapist.

Ask your buddy where he dumped Natalee after he raped and murdered her.

[xxx]

Why don't you go back to the Refugee board where you came from, troll??

They LOVE bashing dead 18 year old girls, they LOVE blaming high school girls for their own rape and death.

BTW, it was your boy Joran who says Natalee told him she was a VIRGIN...so, chances are he couldn't help himself from taking that virgin girl by force and, oops, as he was raping her he must have killed her, too.

Too bad Arubans raise drunken, rapist murdering scum....

I am done now, there is nothing more disgusting you can write to further provoke me.

I repeat that I hope karma works in your case...which in my opinion would be to have some woman in your life, doubt there are any, raped and murdered and then called a slut all over the Internet.

[Mike]

Hey Dan,

Kind of curious if you mind your own comments?

xxx,

Never feed the trolls.

Kaycee,

Please explain all the lies?

[windy city]

He didnt need to do that . Natalee behaved like a slut and got what she deserved . She went around offering pussy to everybody on the island that would have her and the price she paid for it is a sad reminder not to raise little sluts and whores in your homes who would utilize every little oppurtunity to indulge in their slutty and whore like activities . I guess Beth knows , it runs in the family !

Posted by: hehehe | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 01:47 PM

HeHe,

When you are done giggling at your immature, idiotic and hateful self, call your shrink and make an apointment. The amount of hatred towards women that you have is worrisome. I figure your mommy used to abuse you when you were a child. Get help.

[windy city]

I bet you know what number to call , windbag

Posted by: hehehe | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 02:47 PM

New nic same old tired coward! I'll have a drink with ya! If you have the balls! I doubt it though.

[windy city]

Bring your wife along as well :)

Posted by: hehehe | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 03:01 PM

Weak! Get some new material, loser. You get kicked of Refs again? The way you abuse women is borderline psychotic. If your ever in town look me up. We'll grab a Lou and then I'll give you the beatdown that you so richly deserve.

[windy city]

xxx, Maybe you can answer this one. How can J2K be heading back to court to clear their names if the investigation by the D utch is still on-going? Could it be because the D utch are planning to close the case? Or maybe just posturing by J2K's attorney's? Should be an interesting weekend on the blogs!

[offonatangent]

xxx
I also find hehe crude
Now to the facts: No evidence Natalee was raped - in fact Joran said they had some "foreplay", no actual sex. And how would Beth know whether Natalee's a virgin or not. Losing one's virginity - not exactly something most unmarried girls rush home to tell mom - especially with a stepdad like Jug
No evidence Natalee is dead, much less murdered.
No evidence Joran ISN'T (or wasn't at that time) a virgin himself. Not a single girl he had been with up to that point said they had had sexual intercourse.
In all my reading I never saw where Joran discussed Natlee being a virgin or not. I do know Beth beat everyone over the head with it - even though she had no way of knowing herself except what she THOUGHT she knew about Natalee. And there was a LOT she didn't know - like Natalee being a closet smoker or calling Beth "Hitler's Sister" when she was mad at her. And make no mistake - when Natalee left AL she was mad at Beth. They had a fight the last thing before she left - by Beths own admission. Natalee's buddies all knew as Natalee talked about it on the trip to them - and obviously to Joran.
There is no need to smear Natalee - she was a normal 18 year old young woman - if she drank or did drugs or had sex - no matter. Perhaps something she did had some effect or was a contributor to her possible death, but there is no way to know that. I personally do not believe Natalee had sex (intercourse) with Joran or so much as touched either of the Kalpoes. If she was raped, I don't think J2K had anything to do with it. My theory is that Natalee drowned either alone or with a group - either MB students or someone from the festival. She could very easily have accepted a last night boat ride from someone and just slipped or fallen into the water.I think if Natalee was or had been on the island (dead or alive) they would have found her by now. For all we know a group who attended the concert (arriving by boat) were the last ones to actually see Natalee and they aren't talking.

No matter what opinion we have there is no need to talk nasty or be crude. Sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just learned some new crude words to me. I feel sorry for people who have nothing to say except scum-talk and obviously have the IQ of a 7 year old.

[thedevil]

which in my opinion would be to have some woman in your life, doubt there are any, raped and murdered and then called a slut all over the Internet.

Posted by: xxx | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 01:54 PM

sweeter words have never been spoken before !

[potempkin]

No matter what opinion we have there is no need to talk nasty or be crude. Sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just learned some new crude words to me. I feel sorry for people who have nothing to say except scum-talk and obviously have the IQ of a 7 year old.

Posted by: offonatangent | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 04:44 PM

you have no credibility, your quack research is a joke, now you are reduced to name-calling, you call that the expression of a great mind. or realllly.........

[jackson80]

My theory is that Natalee drowned either alone or with a group - either MB students or someone from the festival.

Posted by: offonatangent | Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 04:44 PM

only a troll would claim she drowned.

[Mike]

Tangent,

Then why all the lies from Joren and the Kalpoes?

Why the quote from Paulis of "No Body No Case"?

Why leave the expensive shoes?

As far as I have seen the only one who used the "hitler's sister" comment has been Joren and company...have you heared of others who have?

Why would 3 young males go to C&C'c 1/2 hour before closing if not for trying to score and then say they forgot their condoms?

I know alot of Joren supporters want to believe the drowning theory...it would make everything so nice and clean for Joren, but as stated before even the Keystone cops don't believe this.

I agree with you on the smearing of Natalee...but from what I have heard there's a whole blog out there dedicated to that. Do you consider those posters as crude also?

This is no drowning....this is either murder or manslaughter in my opinion.

Like Paulis said...no body no case, but also no body no forensics like date rape drugs.

[offonatangent]

Mike
I don't think smearing Natalee has any value in the solution. What she did has value only because it might give unsight as to what she MIGHT have done that night or where she MIGHT have gone or who else we don't know about she might have been with. Just because I do not believe J2K guilty does not mean I hold Natalee responsible for any foul play she was a victim of.

Her girlfriends have all confirmed that Natalee called her mother "Hitler's Sister" when she was mad at her. Just a way to say she was really strict basically. No real statement about Hitler was intended. Joran didn't even have the quote correct BTW - the friends are the ones who explained what he was talking about. Joran didn't even "get" what she meant - it didn't translate well. You can verify in several interviw transcripts - Ruth and the other girl she roomed and her "guy friend who was on the trip with her ALL confirmed she said this. A teenage girl bitching about her strict Mom - what a shock!

There has been no confirmation that Paulus ever said "no body no case" - Deepak or Satish said he said something similar (not those exact words) when they were freaking out about being questioned. The real statement was described as if they don't have her body you don't need to worry, she will turn up in a few days. This is another misrepresentation by the media and then repeated ad nauseum by them and by Beth. Look at the statements made by the Kalpoes. This is explained very clearly and in context - they were looking for some reassurance and obviously their mother had NO experience with such things and Paulus did.

"All the lies" are in reality about 3 or 4. I have read the list of so-called lies and many of them are not differing stories, but more details on the "final story" stated as the "truth" - not more lies. If Joran added any detail later - as he did when he added that Natalee fell asleep and he told her he needed to leave - it was an addition the the story, not a different story or a lie. He could have made out with her AND watched her sleep on the beach and then left with NONE of it being a lie. I am not excusing Joran but I think a 17 year old boy who really was innocent might tell a few lies if confronted by an angry mob in the middle of the night at his home demanding he "return" to them a girl he barely knew or remembered. Later he was questioned for MONTHS sometimes 18 hours a day, alone, without counsel and some questioning techniques are legal there that are not here (sleep deprivation etc). HE even saw his father arrested and held - his family's reputation and their lives and jobs wrecked. Professional criminals and sociopaths can't last with such pressure, but a dumbass 17 year old kid did? Yeah right - is this guy a super-man ore something? He didn't break because he doesn't know what happened to Natalee. Letas be real here - the lies mean very little in the big picture - what does matter is that I don't believe Joran knows where Natalee is or what happened to her. Many better, stonger and smarter men break under the questioning he got - if he knew, they would have broken this big dumb kid - or better his accomplices Deepak and Satish who would have ratted him out in a minute IF THEY KNEW ANYTHING.

They went to C&C's because the MB gang was going and I thing he and Natalee were attracted to each other. I don't get why this seem strange to people. Two teenagers who had a thing for each other and made plans to get together at a bar - what is so shocking? I don't think Joran was that experienced and probably did not expect to have a chance to USE a condom - like I said - Joran was not the lothario everyone has made him out to be. They could not find a single girlfriend he had had intercourse with - one was interviewed with her MOM on TV even. Not a single woman tourist who had even been "with" Joran. As to date rape drugs -again - not a single report by anyone at any time of anyone at C&C's having had a drink spiked or being raped after their drink was drugged. Not a single accusation even - no Joran sex, no Joran rapes, no spiked drinks period. And this with months of people offering REWARDS in Aruba and in the USA. By her friends own admission Nat walked out happy and on her own power and was yelling at her friends Woohoo Aruba. Any drugs Natalee did (if she did) she did herself. Ecstasy was being bought and used by students in the MB group as well as marijuana per some reports given the the FBI and reports from witnesses at the HI. Nat was said (again by MB studenst and the HI personnel) to have been drinking all day that day and perhaps she may have done drugs as well - as other people in he group were. In that condition - after drinking at least 3 more drinks at C&C's (3 per her friends) if she had been ruffied at C&C's she would have passed out before she made it out the door. According to several MB students who were there the last drink was served a full half hour before she left C&C's (it took over 30 minutes for everyone to go outside). No way was she drunk and then drugged with ruffies and still happy, yelling and "up" 40-50 minutes later. And no, I do not think they drugged her later in the car either.- and I don't think they had a stash of rohypnol or ketamine - there is just no evidence any of them EVER bought such drugs or drugged anyone. Heck, I think Satish and Deepak were there as Joran's ride mostly and to gawk at some pretty , bikini clad girls doing belly shots and dirty dancing. By all reports, they never left their table the whole time in C&C's. No exactly predatory. And Natalee WAS dancing with Joran and even asked him to do a belly shot on her. There are PICS of Natalee dancing ON the bar before Joran even got there. Natalee was (based on her actions reported by other patrons) just as interested (and maybe more so) in being with Joran as he was with her. Why would you drug someone who wanted to be with you already?

Joran left his shoes at the beach. So what? 17 year old boys are not the best at keeping track of their stuff or caring how much things cost. Again, why are the shoes left at the beach a big thing? The beach clean up crew pitched them or some homeless guy, fisherman or beach bum took em. Any idea how much stuff people leave on a resort beach every day? Sun, drinking and vacationing make people lose stuff so Aruba and the hotels clean up the stuff daily. By the time the shoes were mentioned they were long gone - and BTW, they were supposed to prove Joran was at the beach like he said - not finding them hurt his case, not helped. He even went out there with police while he was in Jail and SHOWED them where he said was and where he left the shoes. Finding them would have proved he was where he said they were that night (And where he said he left her).

Drowning is just as logical as 3 boys disappearing a girl from the face of the planet in a 3 hour window of time without a boat and without leaving a single shred of forensic evidence anywhere including any vehicle owned by either family. Not pre-planned, not pre-meditated but that slick in 3 hours - so slick it seems like the perfect crime. Not a single witness. not a single mistake, better than the finest hit man in the mafia - and these are not too smart, not too sophisticated BOYS! Even if Paulus helped there would have been so little time (after waking him and taking him to Natalee's body) and still, no evidence, no witnesses. And now 4 people involved? If Paulus got help now 5 people? No one broke despite a huge reward. Not a word, not even a hint. Police watching J2K from next night and the Twitty's 1st contact forward, computers and phones tapped, J2K questioned 1st the afternoon of day 3? Followed and surveilled and tapped. again, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE.

Nope - no matter how I put it together I cannot make the pieces fit. And debating now seems so silly as I don't think we will ever know what really happened - just like we will never know what really happened to JonBenet Ramsey and thousands of other missing and/or murdered people. I spend most of my time there days hoping for justice for cases we have solved - for Couey and Duncan to go the same way as Peterson. Sometimes you just have to trust that there will be answers, we just may not ever know what they are in this life.

BTW -in All the above IMO unless source was stated.
Thanks for the polite debate Mike!

potempkin - you are an expert on the subject how? I should be concerned about your approval of my credibility why? My opinion of hehe's character and IQ affects you in what way? And finally, see below regarding my opinion.

jackson80 - I have posted here many times - your definition of troll is hardly accurate in my case. And I merely stated my opinion - I didn't "claim" anything. I do not pretend to know what happened to Natalee but I have my opinions based on my own research. Last I checked, still living in America and still free to have my opinion.

Even Beth has moved on and believes Natalee is in Heaven as per a recent TV appearance. Rail against the wind as long as you like but in the end, wishing Natalee at Peace may be all we can do.

[Mike]

Tangent,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on those points.

To me the lie was too complex to come up with on the spur of the moment.... it even had a alibi witness i.e. Steve Croes. It also bother me that they even included a reference to Natalee falling and hitting her head...almost like covering something as though she have been found later with a head wound.

As for the shoes....I actually don't think they were ever left on the beach, I don't even think Natalee made it too the beach...no one else on the beach reported seeing them, not even the fisherman seen them.

If Joren and crew are as completely innocent as you claim why hold onto a lie so long that it even got 2 innocent men sent to jail.

As for the "No Body No Case" comment...that was stated as fact from Karen Jannsen the prosecuter. But too be honest I'm not sure what value anything that comes out of a Aruban officals mouth has.

[kaycee77025]

xxx, you're acting a bit like a nut case.

[kaycee77025]

Mike, tell me what the lies have to do with evidence of a crime against Natalee? That's the thing, not calling each other names or even calling J2K names.

Until there is some link to those lies to Natalee's disappearance, why keep churning them up over and over? Why talk about stuff that doesn't matter?

If there is no evidence of a crime against Natalee, for whatever reason, where else can we go? It's just bitching at people who disagree. xxx says he knows there is no evidence, but his gut tells him Joran did something; how do you reason with that? If you want to change my mind, give me a FACT that shows a crime occurred against Natalee.

[Mike]

Kaycee,

When someone lies its usually for a reason....a few believe it was because they were scared that Natalee's family or mob as some have called them, were pressuring Joren for info on their daughters where abouts. I don't know about other out there but if I knew I had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance I would have no reason what so ever to lie and even maintain that lie while sitting in jail.

I agree we can argue till the end of time about the so called lack of evidence. But if there is none it's not because a crime didn't occur in my opinion its because favoritism came to play on behalf of Paulis. I believe that his best friend the chief of police helped out in that regard. Doesn't it bother you that 2 different high level government source stated that a confession was made and they were going to recover Natalee's body and then recanted hours later....seems strange to me.

I believe that if this case occurred in the US it would have been solved in a few days...but your right, it probably will never be solved now...thats not justice to me.

My opinion of course.

[yyy]

I've truly never heard of the last known person seen with a missing person providing multiple false alibi statements dismissed as NON EVIDENCE.

If no crime occured against Natalee then she must be alive, why didn't whomever helped her leave Aruba come forward to claim a million dollars, why hasn't she contacted ALE to prevent the persecution of innocent males? How did she come to wake up from her drunken sleep on the beach to disappear herself so completely???

[yyy]

There was no evidence a crime was committed against Chandra Levy right up until her body was found, same for Laci Peterson. People with common sense knew these women were dead, they did not have to have a body to "prove" it...though there were many crazy internet freaks who adamently maintained both women ran away, right up until their bodies were located.

That's why NO BODY NO CRIME resonates so much with sensible people, it shows a clear knowledge that if Natalee is not recovered then no case for any crime can ever be made, especially since the crime scene can also never be identified without a confession or a body.

[offonatangent]

Mike - the lie was actually pretty simple - we took her back to the hotel and dropped her off - she was and tipsy and stumbled and a Sec guard came over and walked/helped her in. Not a BLACK sec guard, mind you and not 2 of them - only a shirt color was mentioned specifically and by only ONE of the boys - and not JORAN. The 2 sec guards were arrested because they already had been reported for stealing from HI guests and asking guests for money, cigaretes etc. J2K didn't ID them - in fact the police never had so much as a line-up. ALE arrested them because they had reason (besides a story saying they left Nat with a SEC guard in a dark or black shirt. The guards spent a whole 9 days in jail and the police did find belongings of guests and former guests in their room at the vacant hotel they were working at next door. 9 days - compared to Jorans 3+ months is not a "long time" especially since they were obviously up to no good and should have been arrested for theft anyway.

Croes was not an alibi presented by J2K. I have no idea what arrangements MIGHT have been made prior,if any, but Croes said he came up with the idea himself to HELP the Kalpoes, who he knew casually and he just showed up at the police station. Joran didn't even KNOW him and had never met him. Croes was NEVER presented by J2K to the police as an alibi. It seems they were ALL surprised at him showing up and saying what he did because unbeknwst to Croes, by that time ALE had already "broken" the dropped off story as a lie.(That took what, 4 days, but they couldn't break a 17 yr ld kid they had broken once already on what really happened to Natalee?)

As to not being seen on the beach...if you went there to do a bit of "making out and fooling around" would you choose a place where anyone on the beach for a half mile could see you? The beach in Aruba isn't a wide expanse of sand in that area - there is a mangrove swamp right by the Mariott (it was drained and totally searched by people and dogs, remember) there where local couples often go to make a little whoopee and the beach does have bushes and shrubs and dunes on it. From what I have seen in pictures and have been told by people who have checked it in person, there were plenty of places they could have been on the beach (within a 10 minute walk to the HI and a 2 min walk to the Marriott) without being seen at night unless someone practically walked over them.

If you happen to have a link or info on Karin Jannsen attributing that exact quote to Paulus I would like to see it. I never read it and ALE released so little info and evidence per their laws I am suprised this was said. In Aruba any information - especially confidential statements and direct quotes given to the prosecution, as this would have been - means that statement can NOT be used by the prosecution at a trial. Once she released the specific quote and attributed it to Paulus she basically made it useless as evidence against ANY of them in court. I just don't know why SHE - as the prosecutor, would do that? Laws in Aruba are VERY specific about this and VERY different than US laws. That is why we know so little about the investigation as compared to LE and investigations here.

I am not hoping to change your view, Mike - I just think the info you (and others) base you opinion on should be as complete and accurate as possible so as to support your arguments that J2K killed and disposed of Natalee in a 3 hour window - again, without a single witness. Hmm, you would think someone would have noticed them raping, ot assaulting or killing or carrying around a dead girl? Deepaks car was FAR to small for all of that to happen in it rather than open where they could be seen by anyone going by. Oh,and then there is that pesky lack of ANY forensic evidence of Natalee in the car (not even a hit from a cadaver dog - and no cleaning removes THAT), No luminol evidence (which remains no matter WHAT you clean with), no body fluids, no DNA, no hair, nothing. It was just as if Natalee was only in the car for a few minutes, not long enough to leave a trace.- similar to what the boys told ALE... Hmmmm.

So many unanswered questions and so little proof or evidence.

[yyy]

YOu are simply wrong on a number of facts.

1. It is patently false that anything made public cannot be used by the prosecution.

2. Joran himself references no body no case...apparently the father's reference was to a live body not a dead body, but someone who is a native Aruban would have to explain the translation, but there is no doubt that he said this since it is mentioned in the recording in the van, K2 also said this what Paulus said.

3. The initial lie was not simple. It also included FALSE inf. that Natalee was gambling and Joran was winning her money back, it also included FALSE statements, according to K2, of what they witnessed in the car between Joran and Natalee, they say he told them to make these false statements. The security guard statement was much more detailed, dark man, black t shirt, walkie talkie and dark pants, Deepak said HE COULD IDENTIFY THE GUARD, while Satish said he could not. It has never, NEVER been substantiated what other 'evidence' allegedly existed to keep the guards in jail, you are repeating an internet rumor as far as I know, I do not recall anyone involved ever saying on the record that tourist items were found in the homes of the two guards.