Watch Them Scream

The CIA director, General Michael Hayden, praised the deal reached in Congress today that, in effect, would permit CIA interrogators to use harsh techniques critics call torture.

If the CIA likes it, I like it. And when I say watch them scream, I don't mean the enemy combatants / terrorists, I couldn't care less about them. It's the Liberals screaming about the deal that's fun to watch.

It's amazing when you think about it, that a political ideology would seem so intent on bringing on its own demise by giving a dangerous and unprincipled enemy a free pass - but that's Liberalism, folks. No doubt they're feeling tortured tonight by the compromise. Now all the Dems have to do is try to block it and they will solidify their image as soft on terror. And the netroots will torture them if they don't take a strong stand.

Poor Dems, they probably thought they'd be cruising toward control of both Houses right about now. Instead they are wringing their hands wondering how to get elected without letting people know what they really believe. At least for today, political life is sweet for conservatives. But will it last?

Time will tell.

StACLU has more. The ACLU is feeling tortured, as well. How bad can it be? ; )

Comments

[Ofc. Krupke]

--"A "free pass"? So if our covert special forces get caught in Iran (that would make them non-uniform enemy combatants), Iran should be able to torture them? Why not?--

While non-uniformed, they still serve a nation-state that is a signatory to Geneva, and have a clearly-defined chain of command. Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Iraq fails every one of those tests completely.

And your scenario is a pointless question. Iran would torture our troops regardless. And if Iran's handling of its own prisoners is any guide, they'd do a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

Seriously, are you making the argument that if we signed on to whatever it is you think our policy should be, that our enemies would follow suit? That it would have any effect on their behavior whatsoever?

[TimW]

"BUT - let's just be honest here. The issue isn't torture vs. harsh interrogation, it's the denial of habeus corpus or even due process as generally practiced by Geneva signatories."

I fully agree and that what congress is working on right now.

"The fact of the matter is, MORE innocent people than not have been "tortured" or "harshly interrogated" or "disappeared". This without any oversight or chance to prove their innoncence"

Do you have any backup for such a bold statement other than al queda / jhihadi whining? The fact of the matter is that low level guys get the standard interrogation treatment while the top guys get the rough stuff.

[KC]

Tim said : If you dont understand why we invaded Iraq, I cant help you at this point.

To which I replied with the real reasons we invaded Iraq. Side topic, I know.

Tim,

You have no answer for what happens at our rendition sites (black prisons) around the world, and pleading soldier/contractor/cia incompetence at American run sites is not an excuse. Furthermore, it goes beyond incompetence as we have learned and often orders for inhumane treatment originated way up the chain of command.

The soldiers and commanders should be tried as war criminals, and so should Bush and Cheney. If you can't see this, I'm sorry.

[KC]

"Do you have any backup for such a bold statement other than al queda / jhihadi whining? The fact of the matter is that low level guys get the standard interrogation treatment while the top guys get the rough stuff."

Al Qaeda whining? What have you been smoking. Start here to learn about the abduction of INNOCENT people who are then tortured in secret prisons: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1657839,00.html

Now, what proof do YOU have that only the "top guys" get the "rough stuff"? How do they identify the "top guys"? By torturing the "low level guys"?

This hardly passes for a debate.

[Ofc. Krupke]

--BUT - let's just be honest here. The issue isn't torture vs. harsh interrogation, it's the denial of habeus corpus or even due process as generally practiced by Geneva signatories. The fact of the matter is, MORE innocent people than not have been "tortured" or "harshly interrogated" or "disappeared". This without any oversight or chance to prove their innoncence.--

I admit it's been a long time since my class on Geneva protocols at Parris Island. But if I remember correctly, there is no provision for habeus corpus or due process under Geneva. That's because those are criminal law concepts, and Geneva governs POWs.

Remember, under Geneva, an EPW can be held until the war is over. You don't have to try him or charge him with anything. He's been captured, not arrested.

[KC]

"Remember, under Geneva, an EPW can be held until the war is over. You don't have to try him or charge him with anything. He's been captured, not arrested."

And when, pray tell will this "war" be over? I'm not talking about people rounded up on a battlefield either, making it hard to call them POWs in the first place. The Geneva argument I'm making is just a way to build a framework within which we can call upon international laws that govern the treatment of captives (of whatever type).

But seriously, when will the war be over? What war are you talking about? See, that's the problem with this administration, its cronies, and PNAC: they WANT perpetual warfare, and instability in the ME plays right into their desire to permanently garrison the area, control the oil, and keep a stranglehold on power back home based on war generated fear.

I can't believe you haven't caught on yet. Read PNACs OPENLY STATED OBJECTIVES!

[tom]

Tim sez "The whole problem with this whole debate is that Liberals have defined the word "torture" down so much that its pretty much meaningless."

Your relativist definition of torture would seem to depend on our enemies tactics. Its OK if we gouge an eye, as long as they gouge both - just as long as we're not as bad as them, its OK? What the F*** kind of moral logic is that?

You cowards claim waterboarding and longstanding aren't torture? You wouldn't last an hour. And our Special Forces trained in methods to resist waterboarding, they are not waterboarded. It's a proven fact that we've tortured INNOCENT people. Doesn't this bother you?

[Ofc. Krupke]

--And when, pray tell will this "war" be over?--

Good point. And that's the crux of the problem. Which is why both Geneva's POW regulations AND domestic criminal justice procedures are very poor tools to handle Al-Qaeda type threats, at least if you hope to win. Those rules were developed in a world where those threats didn't exist.

Still, "habeus corpus and due process as generally practiced by Geneva signatories" is a pretty vague statement. The UK, for example, permits the government to "preventatively detain" people for up to 28 days without any habeus corpus requirement. And I assure you there are any number of countries who are signatories to Geneva, who nevertheless have notions of "due process" that would make your skin crawl.

--What war are you talking about? See, that's the problem with this administration, its cronies, and PNAC: they WANT perpetual warfare--

Actually, I was just referring to whatever war the EPW was taken in as far as Geneva is concerned. Doesn't matter which one. Pick your favorite.

One more thing: just because someone has a different view of the world than you, doesn't mean they "WANT perpetual warfare" any more than someone who disagrees with me "wants the terrorists to win."

[KC]

"One more thing: just because someone has a different view of the world than you, doesn't mean they "WANT perpetual warfare" any more than someone who disagrees with me "wants the terrorists to win.""

Thanks for the rational response. But unfortunately for your last point, the economic and political systems espoused by the hypocrites who endorse PNAC papers depend on perpetual warfare (military industrial complex), control of the oil (garrisoning the ME after we were kicked out of Saudi), and the use of fear as a tactic for systematically stripping civil liberties and economic aid from those who are already more likely to be disenfranchised. It all goes hand in hand.

When I asked you "which war"? I meant the ostensible "GWOT" or the "war" in Iraq? How convenient that we don't have to fight uniformed armies anymore.

[KC]

One more thing from me too before I go home:

"One more thing: just because someone has a different view of the world than you, doesn't mean they "WANT perpetual warfare" any more than someone who disagrees with me "wants the terrorists to win.""

It should be fairly obvious to the average 5th grader that the implication of saying that the opposing point of view is tantamount to "wanting the terrorists to win" is far more severe than saying "they want perpetual warfare".

You see, my "side" isn't the one known for slandering your "side" with smears like "traitor", "terrorist appeaser", "fifth column", "coward", etc. The republicans perfected the art of name calling, and by conflating the PROVABLE hypothesis that perpetual war ACTUALLY IS GOOD for certain political and economic interests in this contry with the disingenuous tactic of calling your opponent slanderous names, you have merely taken their tactics down one notch in order to appear more "moderate".

But I appreciate the effort.

[Ofc. Krupke]

KC,

So you've proven that "your side" is less prone to slander by slandering me.

Well played.

[jan van flac]

"No one can argue that the Iraqi people would be better off with the thugs and murderers back in the palaces. Who would prefer that Saddam's torture chambers still be open?"

George W. Bush
Speech Marking First Anniversary of Iraq Invasion
March 19, 2004

"Torture in Iraq is reportedly worse now than it was under deposed president Saddam Hussein, the United Nations' chief anti-torture expert said Thursday."

Manfred Nowak described a situation where militias, insurgent groups, government forces and others disregard rules on the humane treatment of prisoners.

"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," said Nowak, the global body's special investigator on torture. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein."

Associated Press
Torture reaches new depths in Iraq
September 21, 2006

[johnd]

Hooray for alternative treatment definition!

Yay, Yay. I don't feel to afraid to go into town anymore!

Secret agents (unencumbered by the 60 year old Geneva convention's actual text) coercing nut jobs to say anything that will be believed to be them ratting out their nut ball buddies is the best thing for our county I can think of!

Great day for America, that much closer to winning the war on terror.

This is just the beginning of the long war on terror, remember. We'll need many more "victories" over our political enemies before we actually can start to see the dangerous world we live in getting more safe!

Lots and lots of bad people to kill and capture, still very dangerous - could take a lifetime!

Be afraid, be very afraid. Some of us will be playing golf, yachting and passing our untaxed estates along to our heirs, these activities show deep courage in this time of war. Stay ready and keep up the fight!

[killjoy]

There is no polite way to say this: you are a pathetic cowardly bedwetter.

Americans have faced British imperialists, rebels, Nazis, fascists, and communists without discarding our ideals. You would toss away the *American* traditions of the right to a fair trial, being able to face all evidence presented against you, and the rules against cruel and unusual punishment for short term partisan gain.

Instead, you embrace the Stalinist ideologies of torture and secret evidence as documented in the Gulag Archipelago in order to stop a handful of Islamic fanatics holed up in caves. You would turn America into all she fought against for the last 60 years, for the greater glory of George W. Bush. What cowardice! What shame!

[J. Peden]

The only question I have regarding the cause of Faux Liberals' derangement manifestations is: are these symptoms due to abject fear of life and self, or merely caused by a low I.Q.? In any case, it would appear that such people are in desparate need of some immediate test[e]s.

[J. Peden]

The ultimate of "torture" for Fliberals is the effort of their own thinking. And you see the sad results. Torture cannot possibly work. So, I move we ban such torture, since it already is the norm for this sub-species, and it must be "protected" as an integral component of Gaia's structure and holy desires. [pbuh]

[kcom]

"You would turn America into all she fought against for the last 60 years, for the greater glory of George W. Bush. What cowardice! What shame!"

What delusional crap! I literally laughed when I read it! (Hey, these exclamation point thingies are cool. !!!)

[americafirst]

Y’know, if neocons had called it S&M or something else more politically correct besides the big “T” word we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Except for the previous poster who’s obviously off in his own little Ann Coulter masterbatory world..

[Michael Hellein]

It is a tragedy for intelligent, well-intentioned people to sell their principles for the ephemeral pleasures of schadenfreude. No matter which side is selling it, torture is a desperate and self-defeating act. Torture doesn't work; it produces unreliable information, and the energies consumed in attempts to corroborate that information are better applied elsewhere. Beyond its barbarity, its dismantling of the rules that protect soldiers from inhumane treatment, its tarnishing of the already-dimmed respectability of the United States, there remains its complete ineffectiveness. Why embrace a useless tool that costs so much? Joy at one's political opponent's failure seems a slender prize.

[J. Peden]

Well, Michael H., it certainly didn't cause you much of the torture of the thinking effort to come up with that Parrot's mantra, did it?

Dana Priest's 10[?]/2002 report on the Secret Prisons, produced/referenced right here on this site, virtually proved that "torture" works. She called the Secret Prisons "vital to the war on terror".

Obviously, neither the torture of your thought effort, nor the presence of the non-torture of your non-thought effort works.

So, what's a Parrot to do? Worship death as the cure-all? How is allowing everyone and their children to be slaughtered so that you can be smug in their deaths, and even feed off them, since your "values" have been preserved, a value? Only through death-worshipping, Michael. You need to inflict some "torture" upon yourself.

And how is enabling the success of sadomasochist Islamofascists, whose highest value is the torture of others and even their own deaths, a statement against this death-worshipping sadomasochism. You sound exactly like them. Why am I not surprised?

[mylena]

to J.Peden so torture works ? well then why don't those killers/rapers and whoever dont get tortured also, so that they confess and can get the punishment they deserve, then they dont need to go to courts either.

[mylena]

and i mean ofcourse UScitizen killers/rapers

[John Pangia]

Man oh man, Dan. You really brought out the white hanky [left wing] crew with this post :)

[Devil's Advocate]

Let's waterboard Riehl. He might reveal his involvement with some right-wing militia that is planning to overthrow the U.S. government.

[beefer]

Can I do it?

[Randy]

What the president is asking for is a situation in which the president can arbitrarily jail any person he sees fit, deny his right to a legal defense and torture him if he wants to. In other words we are becoming a nation of men not laws. Those who have longed for a totalitarian state are very close to seeing their wish come true. True Americans will fight for the constitution with every fiber in their body.

We know that Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was tortured in 2002 with the aim of producing evidence that Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear program. Bush used this phoney intel, induced by torture, as one of the cornerstones of his propaganda campaign for war. This will go down as one of the truly shameful episodes of a horribly shameful administration.

[Miss Led]

"This whole debate is over six or so interrogation techniques used on high value people such as the bellyslap, standing upright for long periods, stress positions, waterboarding, face slaps and the shirt grab."

No, it's not. That is a straw argument and you know it. If you don't, you're ignorant.

This bill is not only about interrogation. It's about treatment of prisoners. And it's about redress and justice for innocents, not terrorists.

Our interrogators have already used techniques used by the Nazis as described in Bruno Bettelheim's books. Some US techniques are classified and only 40 or so Congresspeople have been briefed on them.

Bush wouldn't even need this bill if our actions were not war crimes according to the Geneva Conventions.

[Lindata]

"Remember, we are talking about techniques such as grabbing someone's shirt and yelling at him." You have got to be kidding. NOBODY is talking about techniques such as grabbing someone's shirt and yelling at him. If you seriously think that this is what this is about you have lost all judgement.

[Dan Riehl]

Man oh man, Dan. You really brought out the white hanky [left wing] crew with this post :)

Like I said, watch them scream. LMAO

[gil]

Just a few days ago Riehl and all fellow Right Wingers were up in arms agains Senator McCain, Graham and others. Now that they have compromised they are going after "Liberals". Bad choice.

Just in case Riehl some how missed the substance of the compromise (He ovbiously did) it turns out that Bush and his rent-a torturer policy, LOST.

It is really pathetic how in his desperation people like Riehl and fellow Right Wingers will interpret compromise as a "win" for them.

Have news for you Right Wingers. The Republican Senators that stood up against the sorry likes of you, GOT WHAT THEY WANTED. Or else there would not have been any compromise.

You can spin it any way you want . God knows that's the only thing Bush is good at, but in the end Bush had to BEND OVER and take it from behind.

Get used to it. More is coming.