Of Cowardice And Kidnapped Journalists

David Warren of the Ottawa Citizen and Real Clear Politics writes of recently released journalists Steven Centanni and Olaf Wiig:

The degree to which our starch is awash is exhibited in the behaviour of so many of our captives, but especially in these two. They were told to convert to Islam under implicit threat (blindfolded and hand-tied, they could not judge what threat), and agreed to make the propaganda broadcasts to guarantee their own safety. That much we can understand, as conventional cowardice. (Understand; not forgive.) But it is obvious from their later statements that they never thought twice; that they could see nothing wrong in serving the enemy, so long as it meant they'd be safe.

Obviously Warren is right. Many in the West must be losing their starch. I see far too few of my fellow bloggers with the courage to speak out and denounce this tripe from Warren for precisely what it is, a preening ode to his true Christian God and personal courage, neither of which is served very well in his prose.

What crass opportunistic and hateful mumbling. I went to read his bio, thinking this must be some truly hardened, perhaps even a somehow noble man. That's not the impression which was left.

He looks more like some dottering old self-indulgent fool with a bunch of armchair high ideals. The man and his rhetoric disgust me. Of the 100 things he chooses to tell us about himself, below is number one.

1. I walked across the Hungerford footbridge over the Thames River in London, England, in the presence of Christ, on Thursday, April 15th, 1976.

But we know that can't be true. If Christ is half the embodiment of God I take him to be, he would have thrown Warren's sad judgmental ass off.

Comments

[Phoenix]

Oh. My.

I'm not sure you've ever quoted a more loathsome, disgusting piece.

My starch was washed long ago by cretins like this who would call the desire to live 'cowardice' and then call upon God to justify his words. This man is why I am not a believer. I want nothing to do with his god or any other god that condones this kind of hatespeak. No way.

[heather]

I can't agree with you re David Warren. He is not a doddery old fool, and he is quite sincere about his religious experience on that bridge.

As to that point about 'losing our starch' - it deals with the very important question as to whether or not a secular society, a rich one at that can confront the likes of Islamo Fascism. We live within the protection of great technological miracles... but I do not think they can survive the determined barbarism that is rising around us. Richard Hernandez made the point also: that reason can take you only so far. Religion will give you strength to go beyond reasonable limits.

There have, apparently, been hostages, Christian hostages, taken by the head-hackers, who have refused to give up Christianity... and have died for that courage. The Fox News fellows had no such compunction, because they have no belief system stronger than self defense. And David Warren - and I - believe that all the missiles and techy stuff we have will not protect our society from doing exactly that: because for most people I know, the issue will be: take the tax break offered by the Muslim ruler, and avoid the hassle of being murdered.

[Dan Riehl]

I can't agree with you

Then, assuming you are American, you should leave the secular democracy that nurtured you because, in the end, it is your failure of belief in that system which mandates your need to seek a higher force for civic sustenance. YOU are the true Infidel.

[heather]

although he is a fool when it comes to tea (item #71). Earl Grey tea is the best tea around. Did you know that some people put milk in it?? Horrors.

[Dan Riehl]

Oh God, a traditionalist, too. Likely a Brit.

[Scott Lemieux]

In a true cats-and-dogs-living-together moment, I can't decide if you're more right in your post, or in your comments about prissy traditionalits who complain about people putting milk in tea...

[heather]

the traditional way to drink tea is to drown it in milk. The BEST way is to drink it straight. Like drinking scotch, really, no mix, no ice. On the latter, the most horrifying sight of all was to watch a fella mix Tang in his single malt scotch... and so, being totally multicultural and pc, I have no objection to others dropping milk into their tea. Just don't do it to mine. And make mine Earl Grey, too.

I'm a Canadian, of the monarchist persuasion.

Christianity and Judaism are both support beams of that Enlightened civilization we live in. Cut those, and it is back to tribalism. Islam supports and encloses the Tribe. And that is the reason Muslim countries are poor, primitive, and horrible places to live. And why Israel, for example, is a civilized country with book stores and excellent plumbing and all the other stuff that makes for a pleasant life.

Those Fox News guys were not cowardly, because they have nothing to be heroic about.

[Moneyrunner]

Dan, thanks for sharing. Since we now know that Fox News people won’t die for their religion, you assume that your fellow Americans will be willing to die for …what: A minimum wage? Universal health care? Abortion rights? Women’s suffrage? Bikinis? Pictures of Mohammed? (apparently not). Secular democracy? What, with a gun to your head or a knife to your throat, would you refuse to do and instead say “go ahead, kill me?” What is worth more than life to you?

I ask this because there is something that is worth more than life to people who would like to kill you. There is more than this life to them. And when it comes to a fight between you and them, while I’m not a betting man, my money won’t be on you.

[Dan Riehl]

my money won’t be on you

As if mine would be on you, a total stranger. Some people are absurd. Don't think you can take the measure of a man in your context because he has enough class not to judge another and leave it at that.

[Moneyrunner]

"Don't think you can take the measure of a man in your context because he has enough class not to judge another and leave it at that."

Sorry, Dan. The way I read your post you were being more than a little judgmental. If we are going to accuse each other of lack of class, it wasn’t me who started it. The fact is that the airwaves and media sites have been filled with virtual hosannas to the release of the Fox reporters – their trials and the dangers they faced. All that was granted. It takes someone with special courage to point out that their “conversion” was not the thing of epic heroism.

I have read you blog and have enjoyed it virtually every time. But the fact is that “secular democracy” (your words) is a very weak reed when confronted with religious belief that scoffs at death. If you doubt me, check Europe where “secular democracy” is virtually the official state religion. After Van Gogh was killed, Hirsi Ali was put under guard. The “secular democrats” in her building had her expelled because they were afraid of becoming “collateral damage” when the true believers in Islam came to get her.

Sorry, when the highest good is staying alive, forgive me if I don’t sing praises to your philosophy. I had expected better of you.

[Phoenix]

Better to ask the question - what kind of god wants 'believers' who only believe at the point of a gun?

One worth dying for? I think not.

[Dan Riehl]

MR I don't buy the comparison to Europe unless this country goes over to the Liberals, then you would have a point. The jury is out on that score for now.

[Jason Coleman]

Moneyrunner,

You forgot to include one reason in your list. Freedom. Millions have and continue to stand up for that.

Oh wait, that is worth fighting for, and the best armed forces in the world are fighting every day for just that one ideal.

I'm sorry you have such disdain for the concept and Western Civilization.

Personally, I'm laying my bets down on the principles of the Constitution , which will prevail. I think Dan and I might even use the same bookie.

Reformation is coming for Islam, we're also just pushing it along.

As for the reporters specifically, damn straight they should go along and make the videos, they know that it shows the barbarity of their captors. They know such a video will get aired and give clues that might lead to their release. Should they agree to get set free, sure, they're journalists, not soldiers, their job, their duty, their responsibility is to report. Living another day allows them to do that job.

As for the author quoted by Dan, he's a fundy christian nut, who's made a death cult out of Christianity just as the Islamic Fascists have made a death cult of Islam. Too bad there isn't really a hell, he'd have had a condo there.

This moron thinks this is a war of Islam versus Christianity, it's not, it's a war of Islamic Fascism versus the world; the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto and Atheist worlds (or in shorthand, Civilization). Christianity won't be a "winner" when Islam is forced into Reformation, if anything, Christianity will be taken down a notch as the power of God-constructs over man is diminished across the board by taking out one of the last, large, malignant God-construct that seeks to dominate all mankind.

--Jason

[Moneyrunner]

Jason,

I’m sorry you have so much contempt – perhaps even “hatred”- for religious people. I see this attitude in many Libertarians (I assume you are), and it bothers me because it is so irrational; and Libertarians typically pride themselves on being rational. A “a fundy christian nut, who's made a death cult out of Christianity just as the Islamic Fascists have made a death cult of Islam.” That’s one of those really, really stupid comments that once shocked me (but no longer, I’ve heard it so often) and reveals a mindset that is so filled with hatred toward Christianity that I would suggest you get some counseling.

You are incorrect that I have disdain for Western Civilization. I have the utmost respect for it. I believe that it is the greatest civilization ever. However, Western Civ seems to have become very comfortable with its possessions and very uncomfortable with its ideas. For my entire argument in one word see: Multiculturalism.

Regarding the reporters and their conversion video you cite it as a further exhibit to the West of Islamofascist brutality. Jason, my friend, no more proof is needed. We have seen the head hacker videos. But these videos are shown in the Islamic world. This video is proof to the Islamic world that Westerners are willing to say anything, do anything, even betray their souls when threatened. These videos are proof to would-be Jihads that they have nothing to fear from confronting the West because in the West we breed “weak horses” (in Bin Laden’s words).

And Jason, the part about the reporters making a video to give clues that might lead to their release; come on. Pull the other one.

[Moneyrunner]

Dan, I have a great deal of hope for this country. But I don't think that our triumph is inevitable - as some seem to believe. There’s a good essay by Richard Fernandez of The Belmont Club at Politics Central. http://politicscentral.com/2006/08/24/a_reason_to_believe.php

So my concern is not that people like Jason Coleman will be able to wipe me and my religion off the planet. There is room for both faith in God and faith in man to co-exist. But my concern is that secular humanism is a weak reed when faced with a belief system that transcends this life. How do you deal with young girls who say:

Of course Shahada is a good thing. We don't
want this world; we want the Afterlife. We
benefit not from this life, but from the
Afterlife... The children of Palestine have
accepted the concept that this is Shahada, and
that death by Shahada is very good. Every
Palestinian child aged, say twelve, says 'Oh Lord,
I would like to become a Shahid.'"

http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2006/08/defending-against-people-who-want-to.html

[Bryce]

Dan:

Nice post

[Purple Avenger]

If you're willing to die to proclaim some phony "retention of your religion", then you don't live to provide any useful intel to our warfighters who might have been able to act on it.

Screw that high faluting BS. Do what you can to get out, then give our guys the most complete intel dump you possibly can.

You beat these bastards by killing them, not by becoming a resident of a shallow grave missing a few key body parts.

[rwilymz]

Jason, my man, I'm afraid you have an awfully strained and warped view of religion. Very one-sided. Which means you are partly correct. But like everyone else who is "partly correct" -- which is damned near everyone on the planet -- you insist that your portion of correctitude is either the entirety of correctness, or far and away the lion's share of correctness, that you become, well, a boob.

Religion serves valid purposes, even if there is no god. The fact that religion has often been abused, and used as Expedient #27 in hundred and one ways charismatic louts impose tyranny upon the masses, does not invalidate its beneficial uses.

Now, I'll agree with you on a few of your key points:
1] Islam is one Protestant Reformation away from escaping their medieval theocratic despotism. There are shades of that Reformation already visible, particularly in the so-called "moderate" Islam in Canuckia and the US. "Moderate" Islam in Europe seems to be limited to those muslims who are not currently packing;
2] it is only "the muslim nation" which views this current episode of World History as a war of religions;
3] "living to report another day", while viewed as weakness by pan-islamic hotheads, is simply one of the many many cultural differences between "the east" and "the west". We view it as, well, saving our lives so we can continue to point out what brutes they are. Likewise, we view as cowardly their practice of shooting at our soldiers and then running to hide behind women and children. They view it as saving *their* lives [since they know we are reluctant to fire into "civilian" areas] so that they can continue to jihad us. Wow, different cultures. Whoda thunk?

Personally, I find it ironic that the pan-islamist mullahs are preaching this "christian/muslim my god can beat up your god" war, while declaring that one of the reasons they're jihading the west in general and the US in particular is that we have a "secular" and "materialistic" society.

The irony, no doubt, escapes the bulk of the pan-islamists, but then they aren't exactly known for being critical thinkers.

[Moneyrunner]

Purple avenger, I agree in part and disagree in part. I agree that “You beat these bastards by killing them” as you said. But to suggest that the Fox boys “converted” so that they could provide intel to our side is, to put it, in your words again “high faluting BS.” They wanted to live so they were willing to do and say anything to achieve that end.

Now I don’t know the Fox team beyond what I have seen of them on TV. They have never expressed any indication that they are religious, so a taped conversion to Islam may be as meaningful to them as a hooker’s next trick; not very.

I guess what I, and Dave Warren are discussing is the totally predictable reaction of Western men and women who are captured and then exhibited by the Islamofascists. Put them in front of a camera and threaten them and they will do and say literally anything: denounce their country, denounce the President, denounce the West, convert to Islam … anything.

So be thankful that they are alive. I’m sure their families are very relieved, and they are thankful to be back home and in on piece. But don’t try to make them out to be heroes. Heroism is made of sterner stuff.

Here are my prior thought on this (scroll to the bottom): http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2006/08/jules-crittenden-war-tourists-and.html

And this: http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2006/08/whats-wrong-with-this-picture.html

[Moneyrunner]

Now here's a news flash from ABC News:

Despite being taken hostage at gunpoint in Gaza by a jihadist group and held captive for 13 days, Fox News cameraman Olaf Wiig says he can't condemn his captors.

"It's really complex," Wiig said on "Good Morning America."

"In some ways, I feel such sympathy for the Palestinian cause. You know, in my heart. You know, I can't hate them for what they did. I resent on behalf of my family what they did. But there's a funny bit of me that's sympathetic to them still."

You just KNOW that he's giving all sorts of good intel to the US and Israeli forces so that we can track his kidnappers down.

[Rocketman]

I am very disappointed in the remarks disparaging Mr. Warren and HIS OPINION regarding the FOX News employees and their DECISION to say and promise ANYTHING in order to be released from their corny captors, i.e., the gang that couldn't shoot straight. This is an issue I have been wrestling with since the story broke - would I as a Christian (Traditional Roman Catholic to be exact) strictly adhere to my faith and not take the easy way out, or would I simply roll over and say anything to gain my release from captivity. I'd LIKE to say that I would stand tall, puff out my 50" chest and tell those punks to enjoy fornicating with each other and video tape THAT for all the world to see, because you see, I have the Faith of MY fathers TOO. To be truthful, I honestly DON'T know. I FIRMLY believe however, that this IS a discussion where all sides SHOULD be heard and considered. To dismiss out of hand one man's opinion - which I would like to agree with - is anti-intellectual at best and wholly disingenuous at worst. Think about it and post some mea culpas, eh?

~(Ä)~

.

[Rocketman]

Sorry ...

I THOUGHT I stumbled (Thanks to my other home: PowerLine) into an arena for other smart guys. I should have read ALL of the comments before posting mine so that I could have savored the requisite left-wing hate post: " ... he's a fundy christian nut" by Jason and THEN not wasted the time to crack my knuckles in anticipation of a genuinely lively, intelligent, keyboard-based discussion. As for the sophomorically dismissive posts by Mr. Riehl, I guess I expected too much.

Aufwiedersehen. ~(Ä)~

[Dan Riehl]

Aufwiedersehen

Intelligent men seeking discussion don't minimize the arguments of others by casting aspersions, which is all you've really done. So, I doubt your alleged premise for even coming by and call BS on your rant. Don't let the web page hit you in the ass on your way out.

ANd FYI, I wasn't seeking debate with Warren which is precisely why I disparaged him. Like you, I sense he is full of chit.

[rwilymz]

"You just KNOW that he's giving all sorts of good intel to the US and Israeli forces ..."

Quite likely, actually. Folks in intel know how to dismiss the facts from the opinions.

"I'd LIKE to say that I would stand tall, puff out my 50" chest ..."

Nutrisystem.

Or a DDD bra. Mansiere, whatever.

[THE AZTEC CORN GODDESS]

"...in order to be released from their corny captors, i.e., the gang that couldn't shoot straight. "

Um. How straight does one have to aim with a gun at the back of a skull? 'Corny captors'..... there's some asshole alliteration for ya, Rwil.....

"I'd LIKE to say that I would stand tall, puff out my 50" chest and tell those punks to enjoy fornicating with each other and video tape THAT for all the world to see, because you see, I have the Faith of MY fathers TOO. "

That would hurt their feelings. And as if they'd show that video. What is 'Faith of MY fathers'? I thought there was only one 'father'. But, then, that's the whole problem here as I see it - who, what, is the REAL 'father', god? Won't he please stand up and stop this foolishness? Give us some good intellectual chow to chew on.

The biggest fallacy circulating the planet today is that all religions are equally correct. That cannot be. It simply cannot be. So which is the right one? WHICH GOD IS IT ?? Dang, it sure would settle some stuff if he'd send a sign or something. If I were into it, I'd pick the one that let me be bad all my life and then confess on my deathbed and get a guaranteed ticket to heaven. How cool is that? That's Christianity. That other one where you send your kids out to kill themselves and as many other people as possible? Man. That one sucks.

Enough of that.... I like Rocketman's signature thing.... ~ (A) ~ .... I want to use it. How do you get those little crown dots on top?

[Moneyrunner]

Corn Goddess:

Don't worry because Jason Coleman will protect you, along with millions of his minions.

[THE AZTEC CORN GODDESS]

Hunh? I don't need protection. I'm a goddess. Come on over for a cob. You need it.

[rwilymz]

"How do you get those little crown dots on top?"

Two methods:
1] cut&paste
2] start/all programs/accessories/system tools/character map

[indga]

Moneyrunner, you're fighting a good fight. People have forgotten that what is now being called a "secular democracy" is only possible because of the Judaeo-Christian foundation in which it is founded. The ideas of 'freedom,' for which some indicate they are willing to fight and die, are only possible because of that foundation. An examination of societies with other religious foundations will yield that only Judaeo-Christianity could have fostered such an ideal.

As for David Warren, he's right on the fundamental issue because Centanni and Wiig have abandoned the Judaeo-Christian tradition of Western society, secularism, and the tradition of men who suffered and died rather than fold. Thus, Centanni and Wiig are seen as symbols of the West's weakness. It would seem that they are secular men for whom the movement from secularity to Islam was of no moment; for, it is inconceivable that men of faith would have abjured whatever faith they held. However, it is debatable even that Centanni and Wiig are adherents to anything at all, even secularism, and that is evident in their use of conversion to Islam as merely a tactic of survival. Men of faith make different choices; so do secular men. Ask the Sudanese Christians, the Copts, the Assyrian Christians, the Jews, and others who have held fast to their faith while living in Islamic lands, under oppression and often subject to death. Ask the prisoners of war who suffered and died at the hands of secular men rather than yield.

The West, long free of such oppression, has to ask itself whether it is willing to retain its Judaeo-Christian heritage or yield to Islam under threat of the knife. If the answer is convert to Islam, then we have come to the end of because the values we hold dear do not exist in and will not survive under Islam. If the answer is fight to the death or die rather than yield, then we have the fire within us to defeat the Islamic horde because in order to win we must be willing to die. Even as we scrabble to survive, we must embrace the willingness to die for what we believe. Even in this, we are to be distinguished from the Muslims because such death is not sought but is welcomed reluctantly because we know the alternative is to lose ourselves.

As for Centanni and Wiig, their conversion has indeed sent a message to the Islamic world. The West is soft and weak and will accept Islam to live; in other words, the West is willing to lose itself to stay alive. Proof of that is the declaration by Holy Jihad, or whatever Fatah calls itself, that Westerners they kidnap will either convert or die. Centanni and Wiig live, likely not for long unless they take Islam seriously, but at what price? Survival at all costs? At what price? That Italian, whatever he may have believed, understood what Centanni and Wiig, with their "highest respect for Islam" and the 'Palestinians', do not. Standing fast, whatever the price, is better than folding. Ask John McCain or any of the Vietnam-era PoWs who suffered horribly rather than yield even an inch.

I think that in the dark of the night, in the stillness and silence, Centanni and Wiig confront their diminution as men and shudder. They will not say it publicly, but they will know, in their heart of hearts, that when they had the staring down their tormentors and standing up as MEN, they proved to be less than stalwart. They turned their backs on a long line of men who preferred to suffer and die than to yield; thus they stand condemned in their own eyes because it was a conscious choice they made. Life without honor, as men of an earlier generation knew, is no life at all. Thus, Warren is right.

[Just Some Guy]

Dan: you're right.

I'm surprised by the debate here. Centanni and Wiig are not warriors, and Christians especially should know better than to judge them. Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

[rwilymz]

Wow. "indga". You certain are positive.

Positive, n., Incorrect at the top of your lungs.
- A Bierce

[heather]

There is a failure in communication, here. One world says it is sufficient to be 'smart', the losers are 'stupid.'

the other side says, you must be 'courageous', or embrace the only other option: 'cowardice.'

Never mind what the billions of Al Jazeera fans see when they watch those guys pretend they have joined up with Islam. They were 'smart' to do so, all of us, Muslim and non-Muslim agree with that. But they were not courageous.

And why not?? Because? Read Steyn's article for today. When Faust decides this moment of his life is more important than any other thing, then that is when he has lost his soul to the Devil.

[indga]

Just Some Guy, before you get to 'vengeance is mine,' you have to "stand fast."

I think that you are making an artificial distinction that is untenable given the enemy we face. Had we been dealing with the communists, we could say Centanni and Wiig are not warriors. However, we are dealing with the Muslims who intend that all of us either convert to Islam or die. Thus, to the Muslim, we are all the enemy who has to be fought. We are ALL warriors. Therefore, it is incumbent upon each of us to decide where we stand, before the point of the sword is poised at our necks. How will we answer when some Muslim terrorist tells us 'convert, pay jizya (accept dhimmitude), or die.' If you think we are not all warriors, then you do not understand the enemy we face.

Rwilymz, I have put forward an argument. I have not shouted, ranted, or raved, but have advanced a well reasoned point of view. If you cannot counter it, then firing petty and false shots will get us nowhere. You and I are in the same boat; however, we have different responses to the danger we face. The debate, thank you Dan Riehl for starting it, is one that we in the West MUST have.

How should we respond should we find ourselves in the same situation as Centanni and Wiig. David Warren has one point of view; Riehl and many others have another. Let us suppose that thousands of us respond as Centanni and Wiig have done, where, then, is the West? We will have fallen, as have many civilizations which have chosen, at point of sword, to convert to Islam, no doubt believing that they didn't mean it and did what was necessary to live.

What shall the West do?

[Terrye]

Warren is an idiot and people should leave these guys alone, they have been through enough without this knife in the back. And you know what? It may be that they are careful about what they say for fear someone else will pay the price.

[indga]

Convert or die.

To live in fear is to die a thousand deaths from a thousand little cuts.

Calling Warren an idiot is not an adequate response to the position both he and Mark Steyn have taken. It does not even begin to address the merits of their arguments, much less the demerits. The interesting thing, Terrye, is that you confirm Centanni and Wiig in the cowardice that Warren has ascribed to them. They are now at home in the U.S., what need do they have to offer mealy-mouthed pieties about Islam and the 'Palestinians'? If we in the U.S. are to live in fear of what Muslims in the ME may do to us and ours, we might as well roll over and die. To refuse to speak out of such fear is the mark of cowardice. So, even you agree with Warren and Steyn. Fascinating.

[Phoenix]

indga,

"...as MEN, they proved to be less than stalwart." By whose truth do you utter such words? You do not know what is in their hearts.

You may be speaking in sincere honesty believing in whatever 'truth' you hold dear, but truth and honesty are entirely different concepts. People can be perfectly honest without knowing the truth. And they can be perfectly knowledgeable about the truth without telling a word of it. Religious power structures tend to fall into the former category; political power structures tend to fall into the latter category. And private citizens who both know the truth and are honest about it are seldom heard. And here, you use your notion of truth to discuss private citizens for whom zealotry meant much less than life and call them cowards. Who the hell do you think you are, and what 'truth' guides you to condemn and judge those you know not.

Truth matters. Find it before you declare who lives with honor and who does not.

[heather]

Terrye, we can carry on being very sympathetic with these men. And understand that each of us - when tested in the same way - could very well take the same path.

However. The test was there. And they failed that test.

They are NOT heroic, they were smart. They do not deserve applause. Because when the worse comes to the worst, and it will - perhaps in my time, and surely in my child's time - their example will lead us to failure.

This is a very important debate. I am understanding, now, one way to define decadence: the continuum is from smart to stupid. There is no room for courage or cowardice in that process.

No wonder the Islamofascists believe our society is ripe for the picking. It is.

[Terrye]

heather:

You are not brave either, you are just passing judgment without any liability or risk to yourself at all.

The truth is the decent thing to do when people survive something like this is to be glad they are alive and then move on. It is not decent to lecture them on their lack of bravery when you yourself are all safe and sound. That is tacky as hell. I guess you must think Atta was very brave. Tell me do you think Centanni and Wiig would be better men if they were more like him?

[Terrye]

And heather if it really worries you so much go to Gaza and volunteer and show them how it is done. Do you really think they would think our society was braver if these men had refused to do what they did? They would have just lobbed off their heads, danced about their bodies in manic ghoulish glee and moved onto the next victim. I refuse to play their game by their rules. I am not going to tell other people they have to play that game just to show some loony that they have balls.

[rwilymz]

"Rwilymz, I have put forward an argument."

You put forward something, that's for sure.

"I have not shouted, ranted, or raved"

Hard to do that in writing without heavy use of the caplocks key. But you can approximate "raving" by inculcating intractible moral posturings, which you did.

"but have advanced a well reasoned point of view."

You say "well-reasoned", I say "disingenuous".

"If you cannot counter it, then firing petty and false shots will get us nowhere."

I was busy the other day. And while my "shot" was entirely dismissive which you may find petty, it wasn't false.

"The debate, thank you Dan Riehl for starting it, is one that we in the West MUST have."

I concede that.

"How should we respond should we find ourselves in the same situation as Centanni and Wiig."

Well, first, if you don't want to get kidnapped by pan-islamists, don't put yourself in the position; stay home.

Second, if you must go to the bad part of town, or are compelled to visit, or suffer from dumb luck, then -- personally -- survive by any means.

"Let us suppose that thousands of us respond as Centanni and Wiig have done, where, then, is the West?"

Um ... surviving?

Why is that a bad thing?

"We will have fallen"

That's awful declarative and, frankly, unsupported. You beg questions left and right to arrive at this conclusion, never once offering analysis of any intervening events. Or conceding that any exist.

These two rat-finks "converted" didn't they? At the point of a sword they said "why yes! we're muslims now!" And are they still muslims? I'd wager not. Even if they have sympathies for their kidnappers -- classic Stockholm Syndrom -- I'd wager not. Jill Carroll "converted" too, and went on video to denounce The West. What a bitch, eh?

Here's some realities: The "muslim nation" has roughly 2 billion members; The West less than half of that. Employing the simplistic reductio ad absurdum [hey, if you can build an "argument" from logical fallacy so can I] then -- do the math -- if every westerner gets kidnapped by a pan-islamist and must proudly die before renouncing ... we will lose the war of attrition cat-quick.

"What shall the West do?"

There are two solutions that I'd consider "best":
1] keep pan-islamism at bay for the several generations it'll take before they wake up to the Reformation they so desperately need;
2] go after the supply-source for pan-islamist militancy.

#1 will require a whole series of wars for probably a few hundred years -- think Europe of the late Middle Ages.

#2 will require taking on Syria and Iran [et al] and cutting off the bulk of the supply -- money and arms -- to the militant groups.

Conversion, false or otherwise, is irrelevant, and provides, at most, an individual and fleeting PR coup.

[indga]

"Conversion, false or otherwise, is irrelevant, and provides, at most, an individual and fleeting PR coup." Once upon a time, the ME was Christian. Now, it is heavily Islamic. Ponder that.

You have yet to counter my argument. A series of assertions does not constitute a counter-argument.

[rwilymz]

"You have yet to counter my argument."

You didn't make an argument. You made a "series of assertions".

"Once upon a time, the ME was Christian. Now, it is heavily Islamic. Ponder that."

THe Middle East was never "christian". It was nominally christian. It was ruled by christian Byzantium; it was invaded by christian Franks; it had christians living there. But the people who lived under those christian rulers and next door to those christian inhabitants were [before the mid 600s] jewish, pagan and zoroastran and [after the mid 600s] jewish and muslim.

Now, "indga" as for the "argument" you claim to have made: you assert that it is better to -- essentially -- die on your feet than live on your knees. If captured by pan-islamists who demand you convert or be killed, you demand we be killed because to do less would be to show weakness. Yet you haven't done much besides make pious claims as to why this form of "weakness" is a bad thing.

And you say that I haven't "countered" that "argument"; yet I reminded you that the muslim world [which you elsewhere declare to never, ever be "moderate"] outnumbers the Western World by roughly 2:1, and to undertake your vainglorious, yea verily prideful, course would be to, literally, submit to cultural suicide. This is a simple arithmetic problem.

You aver that "the west will have fallen" by faux-conversion under duress; I contend that the west will have fallen never to get up again by choosing death over release.

Looks like we're just doomed, eh?

By the way: one of the reasons I meticulously parse others' comments and respond minutely to most phrases is to avoid giving the impression that I superficially skimmed the response. That's the impression you just gave. Just so you know.

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