Is There A Moderate Islam?

I know we assume there is. It makes sense. Millions and millions of Muslims, none of them terrorists. But how can we continue to try and explain this away? Islam is going to bring about its destruction and or restriction in the West at this rate.

Frankly, this is intolerable.

MUSLIM leaders have lashed out at Peter Costello, after the federal Treasurer called on them to condemn terrorism "unequivocally", and speak out plainly and clearly against radicals in their community.

They claim to already be speaking out against terrorism and extremism. In my view, not loud enough.

"Obviously Mr Costello is not in touch with the people he's talking about — he's never bothered to talk with them," he said.

Waleed Aly, board member of the Islamic Council of Victoria, said Muslim community leaders had been "speaking out unequivocally against terrorism pretty loudly and continuously for five years. If the Treasurer hasn't heard that yet, I'm not sure what it will take."

Comments

[Heli Pilot]

I am sick of the passiveness from 'Moderate Islam'. To me the silence is passive approval of the murderers. I have NOT heard you, Moderate Islam. I keep WAITING for you to speak out against these facists who have 'hijakked' your relgion. I keep WAITING for clarity regarding the most heinous verses in the Koran.

I will not keep WAITING forever. I am sick and tired of Islam and Muslims - PERIOD. There will be a massive, grass roots, Johnny Reb' style backlash against you f'ing towel heads, if you don't start OPENEING YOUR MOUTHS AND TAKING SIDES _ RIGHT NOW, AND EVERY DAY.

[oldtimer]

The answer is NO, there is no such thing as a " moderate muslem".

[Bugler]

Beginning a national dialogue on expulsion of Muslims is long overdue, in my opinion.

[harry taft]

Someone needs to point out the sheer and irreconcilable conflict between all western societies, where separation of church and state are lessons learned a long time ago, and Islam, where church and state are seen as the ultimate manifestation of belief. Then, of course, ask our Muslims among us to explain why they would choose to ever live in what is essentially, to them, a state of sin. They are here to exploit individual freedom until those freedoms have been destroyed (if they can pull it off) and a required religeon imposed on us all. Given the penchant for the academic's affection for an idiotic idea called "multiculturalism" we have growing islands of the unassimilated, bitching at us whenever we raise the question as to where their loyalties lie. As an educator at a small private university I am absolutely amazed at how little 18 & 19 year old students have not been taught about the differences that count among cultures. I have yet to see anyone who touts that moral equivalence exists as between Muslim culture and Western culture, relocate to that Disneyland that is any Islamic nation.

[indga]

There is no such thing as "moderate Islam" for the simple reason that the Koran is the rule and norm of faith and life in Islam. As the source of Islamic ideology, Muslims have no choice but to act on its tenets; to do otherwise is contrary to its ideology.

Therefore, since lex orandi is lex credendi—the word they speak is the word they believe—Muslims invariably wind up as terrorists because they follow the dictates of the Koran vis-a-vis non-Muslims and others who don't believe as they do. Therefore, I would posit that the terrorists, walking in Mohammed's footsteps as they are, are very "good Muslims."

Those Muslims who don't wage jihad (commit acts of terrorism) actively are supporting it by charitable donations or by refusing to condemn it. Indeed, very few of them speak out against terrorist acts because they acknowledge that the deeds have provenance in the Koran. Their desire is to emulate Mohammed, a terrorist himself.

Thus, the average Muslim is a participant in terrorism, either actively or through support (financial or otherwise). To do otherwise is not to be a "good Muslim."

So, inasmuch as the Koran is accepted as the unimpeachable rule and norm of faith and life, there can be no such thing as a "moderate Muslim." To pretend otherwise is to engage in or believe taqqiyah.

[Kaboom]

Indga is quite correct in saying "there is no such thing as moderate Islam", for the reasons proposed above.

I harbor the hope that there are indeed "moderate" Muslims, but by the parameters of the Qu'ran, (the exact word of Allah), and the hadiths, any "moderate" Muslim would necessarily be a "bad" Muslim.

The only "good" Muslims are the ones who implicitly follow the death cult of the Prophet Mohammed.

"Bad" Muslims pay lip-service to Islam, and live life as they choose, free of many of the intellectual shackles of devout Islam.

These "bad" or "moderate" Muslims are seen by the "good" Muslims as nothing but apostates, and worse than the infidels - death is the only solution for an apostate to Islam, whereas an infidel may be offered dhimmitude. If the "moderate" Muslim exists, I would certainly expect them to be mortally fearful of drawing attention to themselves.

[American Daughter]

When I was a young woman, entering my career as a physicist in defense research (long, long ago) there were no other women and females WERE NOT WELCOME. There was a lot of open hostility and unfair, even nasty, treatment. My way of dealing with this was to take every job I could get and do it to perfection, working twice as hard and as carefully as everyone else. I just let my work speak for me. Now, fifty years later, I am totally satisfied. During that time the world changed, and I had the pleasure of a career in the subject I loved. I didn't feel like I was responsible for the genre, just for my own life.

Likewise, I have a Muslim neighbor from Lebanon, who is now a US citizen. He was educated in private schools in the US, and is now an American businessman. He lives a productive life, developing business here, employing workers, and paying his taxes. He just lives his life responsibly, day by day, contributing to our country and our infrastructure in a positive way. He is moderate, thoughtful, and very knowledgable about world affairs.

I think that there are a lot of Muslims in America like this, who add to our country in a positive way with their lives. I would hate to think they would get tarnished by the actions of fanatics.

[American Daughter]

When I was a young woman, entering my career as a physicist in defense research (long, long ago) there were no other women and females WERE NOT WELCOME. There was a lot of open hostility and unfair, even nasty, treatment. My way of dealing with this was to take every job I could get and do it to perfection, working twice as hard and as carefully as everyone else. I just let my work speak for me. Now, fifty years later, I am totally satisfied. During that time the world changed, and I had the pleasure of a career in the subject I loved. I didn't feel like I was responsible for the genre, just for my own life.

Likewise, I have a Muslim neighbor from Lebanon, who is now a US citizen. He was educated in private schools in the US, and is now an American businessman. He lives a productive life, developing business here, employing workers, and paying his taxes. He just lives his life responsibly, day by day, contributing to our country and our infrastructure in a positive way. He is moderate, thoughtful, and very knowledgable about world affairs.

I think that there are a lot of Muslims in America like this, who add to our country in a positive way with their lives. I would hate to think they would get tarnished by the actions of fanatics.

[jj]

There are moderate Muslims, but even moderate Muslims want the world to adapt to them, rather than they adapt to the world. For instance, this week in Detroit, Muslim girls are requiring the state of Michigan to change the rules about bathing-swimming. Although written for the safety of all, the ban on wearing "street clothes" in the pool seems to discriminate against Muslim girls who tend to want to wear full garb while swimming. Once again, what Muslims want done for them in America is the complete reverse of what they will do for Americans in a Muslim country.

[rwilymz]

"There is no such thing as "moderate Islam" for the simple reason that the Koran is the rule and norm of faith and life in Islam."

Largely correct, but not entirely. Muslims in the middle east are dominated by the literalist interpretation of the koran; muslims in Europe are almost as much. Muslims in the US and Canuckia -- not so much.

Western islam is approaching reformation, but it's not yet at critical mass.

"by the parameters of the Qu'ran, ... and the hadiths, any "moderate" Muslim would necessarily be a "bad" Muslim."

Which is why many of the North American islamic organizations are denounced as heretical. Some islamic umbrella group in Toronto or someplace just last week elected a woman as its president, for chrissakes. It was hailed in the US and Canuckia, it was denounced in Iran.

While there is a practical purpose in non-discernment among middle eastern muslims -- sunni or shi'a, they're anti-west, even if they're temporarily anti-each other at times -- there's no practical purpose in non-discernment between western muslims and eastern. We want these western folks on our side.

When the CAIR talkinghead repeats the declaration that "nowhere in the koran is the command to ..." we need to understand -- and we need to get *them* to understand -- that it is only their western **interpretation** of the koran that says so; the eastern interpretation of the koran holds with jihad and toppling The West.

To the degree that religion can be persuaded by rationality, the local muslims need to be informed "that's only *your* interpretation; the mullahs and imams preaching in Damscus and Qum are saying quite the opposite."

[Phil]

American Daughter

I, too, have known apparently "moderate" Muslims and was once a bit of an apologist for them. However, a few things come to mind.

1) As described above, there are definitely moderate Muslims, but they are likely not practicing true Islam.

2) I'm not saying this is what this guy is doing, but he may be practicing true Islam, which includes the practice of taqiyya. He may be living an outward lie to bide his time in a foriegn land and guard against harm to himself. He may be here to advance Islam demographically, and may be guarding his true intentions. Maybe not, either, but how would we know?

3) As I've said before, when the Islamic Inquisition comes knocking at your door, do you think the Muslim will side with you, the infidel? Or would it more likely be "Sorry dude, I'm with them. Thanks for the pie!"? Remember, if he says he's with you, his life is at stake as well as his beliefs.

If I saw Muslims getting half as riled up about the deaths of innocent "infidels" as they do about graphic depictions of the Prophet -- I might think differently. But every day their silence -- or at best half-hearted and qualified denunciations -- convinces me more that my hunch is right.

[indga]

I would contend that Islam CANNOT be reformed because its book is regarded as not just divinely inspired (the Judaeo-Christian Bible), as as having been received verbatim from the mouth of allah. What the god has spoken, no matter how demonic he is, man dare not reform upon pain of apostasy and death.

Christianity could be reformed because between the Early Church and the Reformation, the Church had lost its way. The Bible was confined to the clergy. However, with the advent of Martin Luther and his translation of the Bible into common German from the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, people could see for themselves the difference between clerical practice and Scriptural doctrine. The effort to close that gap between the two is called the Reformation.

Islam has no such gap, unless it is on the part of 'moderates.' Qaradawi, and all the other devils who preach murder are in line with Islamic doctrine. Inasmuch as they are in accord with the hellish Koran, reformation is impossible.

The only way reformation can come to Islam is by means of a complete redaction of the Koran or a wholesale conversion of the Islamic world. The first is untenable to the Muslim. The second will be accomplished over the course of time, and the Chinese are leading the pack on this. In the meantime, the world hears fully, for the first time, the true teachings of Islam. To quote a character from Demolition Man, it is this: "murder, death, kill."

[Phoenix]

"I would contend that Islam CANNOT be reformed.."

Maybe not. But the human mind can be. For those who contend that there is no such thing as a 'moderate' Muslim, you are not thinking. In essence, changing the sentence a bit, you are saying that approximately 1.5 billion humans want to kill anyone who does not think as they do. Do realize how ridiculous that kind of thinking is?

That is like saying 1.5 billion Christians are right. If 1.5 billion Christians are right, why are there so many different Christian sects - all of which thing they are 'right'? What about those smiling Christians that wear black pants and white shirts and go on missions? There's daggers in those smiles as they insist the only path to God is through them. How's that for sense? Sure, they don't blow you up, but they let you know you're going to hell if you don't follow their path.

What is most astounding about remarks such as: Islam is a terrorist organization (Michael Graham - who was fired from his radio/speaking job for saying that) is that it simply cannot be. Not every Muslim wants to kill the infidel. There goes that declaration's credulity. What about the millions and millions of poor Muslims who know little of geopolitics and live day to day just for survival. What about the 200,000 Muslims who were killed in the tsunami - whose jobs were to excel at the tourist industry and make it great. Or those horribly poor Muslims who died from the earthquake at Bam? Do you think they spent their days and nights dreaming and plotting how to kill the infidel? What a crock. I know too many wonderful Muslims here who have reconciled their way of thinking into a core of reality that makes their beliefs glide like a little block of wood on ice in juxtapostion with ours. It's called objective reality - and, holding down the faith.

Because one is born into a particular culture does not make him evil. His actions make him evil - or not.

[rwilymz]

"book is regarded as not just divinely inspired (the Judaeo-Christian Bible), as as having been received verbatim from the mouth of allah."

Change "allah" to "jehovah" and you have Mosaic Law.

Add the literal son of god and you have christianity.

"man dare not reform upon pain of apostasy and death"

Shades of the Northern Rebellion, Ridolfi and Babbington. But massacring huegonots for apostasy is wa-a-ay different, I'm sure.

"Christianity could be reformed because between the Early Church and the Reformation, the Church had lost its way."

That's a neat rationalization.

I'm reminded of the "virgin birth" thing. The whole concept came about in the 3rd century, pushed by the Eastern Bishops and resisted by the Western Bishops as heresy. The Third Council of Constantinople saw Justinian's Byzantines -- at the point of a sword, literally -- force the Bishop of Rome [later renamed to "pope"] to succumb to the canonical alteration. And now, the Roman Catholic church accedes to the *rightness* of the virgin birth forced upon them, because, well, we *now know*. Grand rationalization.

"The Church of the 16th century had lost its way" is the rationalization of expedience.

"Qaradawi, and all the other devils who preach murder are in line with Islamic doctrine"

And all the Pentacostal rivivalists who preach subservient women are in line with christian doctrine; ...who preach 'spare the rod spoil the child'...; ...who preach 'if thy hand affronts thee'...; et-freakin cetera.

A *literal* interpretation of the bible, or the torah, gives a very strident, inflexible, dogmatic belief system.

Yet judaism is almost totally flexible; most christianity is. Islam is the holdout. Since all are *literally* inflexible, but only one remains so in major practice, ... it points to the people who maintain inflexible doctrine rather than the written guidelines.

Heed: "But the human mind can be [reformed]."

"The only way reformation can come to Islam is by means of a complete redaction of the Koran or a wholesale conversion of the Islamic world."

Remarkably, the way Christianity underwent Reformation. Started with a guy nailing 95 gripes and bitches on the church door and a whole bunch of educated men publishing [after their death, to avoid scandal, arrest, torture, y'know, the trappings of heresy] scientific findings that contradicted the *literal* words of the bible; then a generation of other educated men who'd rather undergo house arrest just to see the horrified look on the Archbishop's face when confronted with unrepentant heresy; and a few others who, for private and selfish reasons, dismissed the rigid Church; then the backlash with papal bulls and anthema and excommunication backed up by loyal armies willing to fight hundred-year wars, and slaughter entire congregations of reformists -- or exile them to a hostile new world.

When all was settled [such that it is, even now] what happened was an entire redaction of the christian religion.

And all it took was centuries of pious posturing, murder conspiracies, murder, torture, slaughter, forced population redistribution -- and a reinterpretation of The Holy Writ.

Piece o' cake.

[xxx]

The end must be near as I agree with the previous poster.

I have to add it is very scary to read what I assume to be my fellow Americans showing their absolute ignorance about Christian history and the teachings of Islam.

Presto chango and it becomes irrelevant that the Bible contains several passages that appear to find gang rape a lesser problem than being a bad host, death for disrespecting one's parents, death for witches, death for adultery, a "god" that helps bring about the total slaughter and annihilation of 'enemies' including children and women, the enslavement of 'nonbelievers' the idea that women can't teach and should be silent in church...and a host of other completely barbaric practices.

Last time I checked Moses got the ten commandments directly from god and Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of the father [e.g. creator of the universe] made flesh, that his mother was a virgin and he was conceived immaculately and that he was a LIVING GOD...and I am also about 99.9% sure that there are still MILLIONS of CHRISTIANS who believe that, which, in any other context but religion would be considered an irrational belief in magic.

[xxx]

Oh yeah, not to leave the New Testiment out, we have casting out of demons, changing water into wine...though I will give you that a rational reading of the Bible wouldn't be able to distinguish what Jesus really meant at the last supper with the bread is my body wine is my blood part, my guess is he was even then speaking in a parable but, again, we have a thousand years of the Christian Church saying that absofreakinglutely that host turns into the body of Christ, transubutation? I think its called and Catholics stil believe this.

What was that passage, yet he who is without sin cast the first stone?

Let he who has not read either the Bible or the Koran or a history book keep his mouth shut.