Discussion Here

Unless or until I get complaints.

Comments

[jack]

xxx ,
Just like the "fingering" thing bothers you , I am a bit unceasy with the fact that Deepak asked STEVE Croes to back up the Holiday Inn drop off story and he makes sure to add the "falling down" part . Apparently he did that without consulting Joran .

[xxx]

I agree, and within 24 hours I am back to Joran and at least one Kalpoe assaulting Natalee prior to whatever caused her death.

Given Joran's story of his buddy having sex with one of the Aruban girls while the others stood outside, the idea that I had long ago discarded that they took her somewhere in the car and raped her may have merit afterall.

I don't know what really happened, where they took her or how she died. But I know that these guys are not innocent, least of all Joran, he knows absolutely what happened to her.

[jack]

If you take any single thing out of context you can make a case that it means nothing, this is the bread and butter of defense lawyers, they try to trick the jury into picking apart the puzzle piece by piece instead of linking it together to form the whole picture. Some juries, Robert Blake, Durst, fall for it, tohers, Westerfield, Peterson aren't as stupid as they had hoped.

All of this stuff is neither innocence nor coincidence but something darker.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:08 PM

It works both ways . Prosecutors would try to make a big deal of anything they choose to , in order to lead to a conviction . All of these statements have been around for over an year now and it led to NOWHERE .

All I know is now I have seen with my own eyes that Joran messaged Deepak around 3:30 am on his home computer .

There is no proof /indication that Joran would have potrayed Natalee as a predator in the absence of his father's advice or anything . You nmay like to imagine anything you would want to .

There is no doubt that Joran is a sexually promiscous guy who doesnt even bother to know girls' last names before hooking up with them , and he never denied it ( carries a condom in his wallet). You may like to draw any number of conclusions about his character / moral standards but there is absolutely NO indication that he is a sexual predator or rapist .
Two of the girls whom he has dated in the past who have come forward have only had nice things to say about him . NONE of his friends ever indicate that he is a short tempered guy , there are statemnets saying he gets funny / euphoric when drunk and not at all violent / destructive.

[jack]

I don't know what really happened, where they took her or how she died. But I know that these guys are not innocent, least of all Joran, he knows absolutely what happened to her.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:14 PM

And how do you KNOW that ?

All I know is that he was home by 3:30 am

[jack]

Why do you think Natalee was ASSAULTED by one or more of the three ?

I am 99 % sure that the Kalpoes didnt have anything sexual to do with Natalee .

[xxx]

The same way I know Robert Blake and OJ Simpson killed their wives and that Maurice Clarett, if you know who he is, was up to no good when he got pulled over at 2am driving eratically wearing a bullet proof vest, with 3 loaded semi automatic handguns and a loaded assault rifle in his car.

Common sense and intuition.

That doesn't make a prosecutable case and its clear from these statements why there was no prosecution, just like with the Ramseys there is plenty of suspicious behavior, lies, more lies, inconsistencies, etc. but there is nothing that links this to an actual crime.

There is every possibility that if Laci Peterson's body had not washed up, Scott Peterson would be probably planning his next murder...it wouldn't make him innocent.

[jack]

Apart from the inconsistencies in the stories , there is hardly any circumstantial evidence that supports your claim , unlike Scott Peterson and O J simpson cases and I am NOT talking about the body /remains being retrieved

There is a lot of evidence that points away from them though.

[xxx]

Why would Deepak falsely say that Natalee put her hands down his pants?

I don't buy to keep the heat off Satish, that makes no sense. I do buy because he wanted to demean her and turn her into the slut that he/they thought or wanted her to be, same reason he told Skeeter that she was dressed like a slut [totally ridiculous] and acting like a slut....

He has to rationalize his actions and turn her into the aggressor and make it all her fault.

I was prepared to give Deepak a pass until I read that statement, to assume that he was just incredibly stupid, but that statement coupled with the additional details on his recruitment of Steve Croes simply make it very unlikely that ALL he did was drive Joran and Natalee around and then harmlessly make up some detailed lies for his buddy.

It may be that nobody DID have sex with Natalee, it may be that something happened, she got shaken up, started to sober up and realize she was in the middle of nowhere with 3 guys, one who was mauling her, one who thought it was a cool idea to pop in a porn video and she jumped out of the car, fell down and died of a head wound.

But the idea that Joran's final statement is the truth, he left Natalee awake and fine looking at the stars, got a ride home from Satish, who still is lying about it and then proceeded, irrationally, to convince K2 to tell a detailed lie, K2 agreed and even embellished this already detailed lie with more fake details and fake witnesses, all these innocent guys held to this fake innocent lie for over a week while truly innocent people were in jail is preposterous.

It would be believable if they were all 9 years old, but they were 17, 18 and 21.

[jack]

What circumstantial EVIDENCE do you know of in this case , apart from the lies which links them to a possible crime ?? Just that they were the last persons seen with her ?

We KNOW that Joran was home at 3:30 am

We KNOW that Joran left for school at 6:40 am

We most likely KNOW that Joran took a test the next day and did well (Joe T confirmed it)

We KNOW that Joran went to play tennis and thereafter to the casino on the day after .

We KNOW that he none of them ever admitted to a sexual ASSAULT against her .

We likely KNOW that Joran did not communicate with anybody but Deepak on cellphone/MSN late that night .

We KNOW that none of the three have any criminal history and NONE of the girls that JOran has ever been with have anything to complain about his behavior .

What happened and when and how did they manage to dispose of the body ?

And yes , the Kalpoes most likely do not know what happened to Natalee .

[jack]

It may be that nobody DID have sex with Natalee, it may be that something happened, she got shaken up, started to sober up and realize she was in the middle of nowhere with 3 guys, one who was mauling her, one who thought it was a cool idea to pop in a porn video and she jumped out of the car, fell down and died of a head wound.
.........................................

That is inconsistent with the police car statement where all of them claim to each other that they do not know what happened to the girl and thay want the girl to be found . That makes it very very likely that none of them witnesses Natalee in any kind of distress in the presence of the other .

I think Deepak's idea to take the heat off Satish makes sense , he could have been ticked off by the slave comment enough to have wanted to degrade her.

[xxx]

I would agree there isn't any other circumstantial evidence that proves they were invovled in Natalee's disappearance, though, again, cleaning your car the night Natalee disappeared is just another in the long line of mysterious coincidences that befell the hapless trio.

I don't seen any evidence that points away from them, though. No one ever saw Natalee after she left with the 3 self described pimps. No one reported anything odd or out of the ordinary or anyone shady on the beach that night. No other clues, Natalee's belongings turning up somewhere else, emerged that pointed to an opportunity killing by a random person on the beach. No one heard any screams on the beach.

It is clear from the times Joran gives in his statements of when he lef Natalee that, if we believe this, the keycard data and alleged video could not possibly have been Natalee, since according to him, she was still on the beach. No one saw her. The sightings that were thought to be Natalee..swimming/vomiting in the bathroom have been confirmed to be other blonde girls, not Natalee.

Sure, someone could have walked by or boated by and seen her passed out on the beach and grabbed her, but there is zero evidence of this. No one was reported to be nervous or acting suspicious or throwing away bundles, nothing.

The other reason why this case wasn't and will not be solved is that it appears that everyone on Aruba lies all the time. There is no need to go back into detail about all the witnesses who saw bodies here and there all over the place that came to nothing. Maybe they were truthful, maybe not. We will never know.

[jack]

We know that Deepak vacuumed his car BEFORE leaving for CnC but I am yet to come across a reliable statement saying that someone saw him cleaning his car at 3 am .

I have never bought the keycard theory or believed that Natalee was in the video . I am almost 99 %certain that Natalee nevr made it back to the hotel. The fact that it was a crowded Sunday night in Aruba with people coming with boats from neighboring Latin America gives me more reason to suspect that she might have been abducted and taken away .

[xxx]

think Deepak's idea to take the heat off Satish makes sense , he could have been ticked off by the slave comment enough to have wanted to degrade her.
---------------------------------------

The slave comment he didn't hear but Joran told him about later? LOL. Joran van der Sloot is at the center of this. He is totally amoral. He feels nothing, not for any of these girls. That is why it took him so many TV interviews and almost a year before he could even come close to saying anything decent about Natalee.

Dude, if you don't think an hour to an hour and a half is long enough to commit a crime, geeze most rapes last 5 or 10 minutes, and dispose of a body then you need to read the crime section of the news more often.

Lack of criminal history in a sex crime? Again, LOL. It proves nothing. Presence of a history of violence and abuse makes a conviction easier, but, well, you know Susan Smith, Scott Peterson, Ted Bundy...the list goes on and on. This is why Joran is free, because he is one of the dangerous ones.

[jack]

The other reason why this case wasn't and will not be solved is that it appears that everyone on Aruba lies all the time.
Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:44 PM

As far as derailing the investigation is concerned I believe Skeeters and Jossy Mansur have done the most damage .

[jack]

The slave comment he didn't hear but Joran told him about later? LOL. Joran van der Sloot is at the center of this. He is totally amoral. He feels nothing, not for any of these girls. That is why it took him so many TV interviews and almost a year before he could even come close to saying anything decent about Natalee.
...........................................

Satish claims to hear Natalee talking about slaves , dont forget that .

[jack]

Dude, if you don't think an hour to an hour and a half is long enough to commit a crime, geeze most rapes last 5 or 10 minutes, and dispose of a body then you need to read the crime section of the news more often.

..............................................

I find it difficult to believe that Joran could have disposed the body without assistance and without a car .

The only persons who could have assisted are Deepak?Satish since he called nobody else that night.

If that is the case , it is inconsistent with the police car statements .

[jack]

This is why Joran is free, because he is one of the dangerous ones.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:52 PM

LOL , dangerous . What do you think he did to Natalee and how . Can you construct a viable theory that is consistent with the timeline and the police car recording and everything else that we know ?

[jack]

This is why Joran is free, because he is one of the dangerous ones.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:52 PM

LOL , dangerous . What do you think he did to Natalee and how . Can you construct a viable theory that is consistent with the timeline and the police car recording and everything else that we know ?

[jack]

This is why Joran is free, because he is one of the dangerous ones.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:52 PM

LOL , dangerous . What do you think he did to Natalee and how . Can you construct a viable theory that is consistent with the timeline and the police car recording and everything else that we know ?

[jack]

This is why Joran is free, because he is one of the dangerous ones.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 03:52 PM

LOL , dangerous . What do you think he did to Natalee and how . Can you construct a viable theory that is consistent with the timeline and the police car recording and everything else that we know ?

[xxx]

There is no doubt someone had to assist him one way or the other, either at the time, with a car and help disposing of her or after the fact, going back and moving her from where he may have just dumped her in a shallow grave near the Marriott.

[jack]

There is no doubt someone had to assist him one way or the other, either at the time, with a car and help disposing of her or after the fact, going back and moving her from where he may have just dumped her in a shallow grave near the Marriott.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 04:06 PM

Who is that someone ?

[xxx]

If I knew that I would be on TV, not a random message board.

[jack]

If I knew that I would be on TV, not a random message board.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 04:08 PM

I mean its either the Kalpoes or someone else .

If Kalpoes , then conflicts with police car conversation

If someone else , then Joran used an unknown mode of communication to contact him (perhaps ESP) .

Any explanations ?

[jack]

If I knew that I would be on TV, not a random message board.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 04:08 PM

I mean its either the Kalpoes or someone else .

If Kalpoes , then conflicts with police car conversation

If someone else , then Joran used an unknown mode of communication to contact him (perhaps ESP) .

Any explanations ?

[xxx]

No, the Kalpoes went home and left him with Natalee, somewhere.

That leaves some other buddy of his that he wanted to share a good time with or his father.

Since we don't know for sure WHERE he was, we don't know if he needed a phone, we don't know if or when another person or persons may have entered the picture.

Why couln't he have IM'd someone else's cell phone? I thought IMs from a cell weren't saved?

Or, he did dispose of her by himself and he DID walk home and then after the family came to the house Paul got involved and had someone else get rid of her. And please don't tell me that conspiracies always fall apart because that is bs. If that was the case then we wouldn't need an intelligence service or homicide detectives, society could just sit back and wait for the guilty conspirators to come forth and confess. Most people are cowards, all criminals are cowards at the heart of it. They confess and turn on each other when that is the only option left to them.

[HotDamn]

Jack & xxx. Jill and zzz will be on board soon. Lol

Carry on.

[jack]

I am not so sure whether IMs are saved or not , if they are picked up by the same tower as are calls .

I still find it hard to believe that Joran would have hidden the body and walked back home and indulged in normal chat , watched soccer scores , porn , while Paulus was busy getting it disposed . If this is all you can come up with , it surely is a very unlikely scenario .

Try coming up with something more believable

[jack]

I am not so sure whether IMs are saved or not , if they are picked up by the same tower as are calls .

I still find it hard to believe that Joran would have hidden the body and walked back home and indulged in normal chat , watched soccer scores , porn , while Paulus was busy getting it disposed . If this is all you can come up with , it surely is a very unlikely scenario .

Try coming up with something more believable

[jack]

I am not so sure whether IMs are saved or not , if they are picked up by the same tower as are calls .

I still find it hard to believe that Joran would have hidden the body and walked back home and indulged in normal chat , watched soccer scores , porn , while Paulus was busy getting it disposed . If this is all you can come up with , it surely is a very unlikely scenario .

Try coming up with something more believable

[jack]

I am not so sure whether IMs are saved or not , if they are picked up by the same tower as are calls .

I still find it hard to believe that Joran would have hidden the body and walked back home and indulged in normal chat , watched soccer scores , porn , while Paulus was busy getting it disposed . If this is all you can come up with , it surely is a very unlikely scenario .

Try coming up with something more believable

[jack]

I am not so sure whether IMs are saved or not , if they are picked up by the same tower as are calls .

I still find it hard to believe that Joran would have hidden the body and walked back home and indulged in normal chat , watched soccer scores , porn , while Paulus was busy getting it disposed . If this is all you can come up with , it surely is a very unlikely scenario .

Try coming up with something more believable

[jack]

I think we probably know he was NOT at home around 2:40 am when he called Deepak on his cell , supposedly he was in the area North of the Marrott Beach .

[jack]

I think we probably know he was NOT at home around 2:40 am when he called Deepak on his cell , supposedly he was in the area North of the Marrott Beach .

[jack]

Why would you think IMs cannot be tracked when they are picked up by the same towers as cellphone calls

[xxx]

Why?

He would want to appear normal, and I am sure by the time he got home he had decided it wasn't his fault anyway.

This kid simply has NO decency, guilty or innocent of whatever happened to Natalee. He's writing a book? He's partying AT THE MARRIOTT?? He appears to be someone who, unlike the Kalpoes frankly, is reveling in his newfound fame, he thinks it's great.

A decent and moral person, even if all they did was lie repeatedly and misdirect a murder investigation for 10 days, let innocent men sit in jail and involve several alleged 'friends' in your plot causing them also to be thrown in jail and become world famous as alleged murdering rapists, would ya know, keep a low profile. A decent and moral person might reflect on the lack of values that led him to leave an unconscious young woman alone on the beach at 3am when he could have easily taken her back to her hotel which was within sight, might reflect on his overall attitude toward woman as sex objects who don't even need last names, if Joran had behaved at all like I would expect an innocent person who is truly sorry for what he has done, I might consider his version possible.

But, instead, he acts like a freaking sociopath. Parading around the Marriott with Natalee look alike blonde girls, going back to all the same places he was with Natalee.

Again, I must refer you to the crime pages for 'real life' stories of what real life, proven rapists and killers do after they commit their crimes. The soldiers in Iraq barbequed chicken wings after allegedly gang raping a 14 year old and murdering her family, a witness to a young girl's rape/torture went to a babyshower instead of police [thinks he's a hero for testifying at the trial, after the girl was killed], 3 gang rapists ordered pizza and watched football [2 of them are now serving 8 years], the two kids who shot their friend in CA and left her body under a couch went to Denny's and then a movie [also in jail], this happens all the time.

You think that people who commit horrible crimes are consumed by grief and guilt, like you would be if you did such a thing, but the very reason why they are able to do these things and we are not is why they don't feel guilt or remorse in the same way you or I would.

[jack]

"This kid simply has NO decency, guilty or innocent of whatever happened to Natalee. He's writing a book? He's partying AT THE MARRIOTT?? He appears to be someone who, unlike the Kalpoes frankly, is reveling in his newfound fame, he thinks it's great."

Ok , so how is an innocent person supposed to behave ? One who knows he hasnt committed a crime . Is he supposed to shun all social activities for life and confine himself in a dungeon mourning for the rest of his life for his lies ?

[jack]

So is Joran not supposed to touch any blonde girl for life ? There are only so many places that you can hang out in Aruba . So what if he went to the Marrott . So what if he is dating a blonde ? How does it make him a sociopath ?

[xxx]

Um, I already told you, keep a low profile, stay away from C&C and the Marriott Beach. Since there can be no 'proof' of any internal dialogue or reflections he has had on what has happened to him, he can only be judged by his external actions...and his external actions appear to show someone who has learned no lessons.

Do you think Kobe is still hitting on hotel clerks?

[jack]

Um, I already told you, keep a low profile, stay away from C&C and the Marriott Beach

But why ? Even if you are innocent ?

[xxx]

Jack,

Because even if he is innocent of rape/murder/body disposal he is not innocent.

He left an unconscious girl alone on a deserted beach in the middle of the night.

He told about a million lies to police, all the while watching footage of her poor family scouring the island and handing out prayer bracelets, and he's still sticking to the Holiday Inn story.

He showed no compassion for the security guards who were arrested based on the false story he and K2 told; he showed no compassion for Natalee or her family for about 11 months.

He clearly led/leads a highly promiscious lifestyle where you don't need a last name, even for a 'girlfriend' who is a local, where group sex is normal. This is not 'normal' for a 17 year old, it is destructive and certainly part of the reason he has been judged guilty is because of this promisciuous lifestyle that we know for a fact he led by his own statement and by his long gone tickle site, so save me the comparrisson to the alleged behavior by Natalee and her classmates that consists of some drunk party pictures and nothing more.

He was ALREADY in therapy for lying and stealing and hitting his brother before this happened.

[jack]

THERAPY and COUNSELLING are two different things , we also have heard a lot of good things about Joran's behavior from other witnesses , also and this may be besides the point we know that Joran was a very good student and athelete .

I agree Joran is not totally innocent , but if he is innocent of murder/rape/disposal he has the right to move on and get going with his life at some stage .

How does it make him a sociopath ?

[jack]

As far as lifestyles are concerned , Natalee and Joran came from very different cultures , although I am sure many people from Natalee's class engaged in sexual activity . Europeans are in general more liberal towards sex and they start out early (at the same time they are in general much more aware and concerned about safe sex than an average American hence the significantly lower rates of teenage pregnancy) .

When it comes to promiscuity I certainly dont consider Joran's lifestyle as exemplary , but it doesnt make him a sociopath or a rapist .

[xxx]

I would argue that hanging out at the Marriott hotel with a Natalee look alike is not 'getting on' with life.

It's just like Deepak going back to C&C when he got out of jail...like the criminal going back to the scene of the crime...like these guys still DONT GET IT, they don't get that lying to police, smearing a dead girl's reputation, playing games with police in their statements is wrong...it is as if none of what happened affected them on an emotional level at all, its, hey, let's party, yeah that f****g Natalee b***c really caused me some problems...

It smacks of lessons not learned.

[xxx]

I would argue that hanging out at the Marriott hotel with a Natalee look alike is not 'getting on' with life.

It's just like Deepak going back to C&C when he got out of jail...like the criminal going back to the scene of the crime...like these guys still DONT GET IT, they don't get that lying to police, smearing a dead girl's reputation, playing games with police in their statements is wrong...it is as if none of what happened affected them on an emotional level at all, its, hey, let's party, yeah that f****g Natalee b***c really caused me some problems...

It smacks of lessons not learned.

[jack]

Come on , do you really think that girl is a "Natalee LOOK ALIKE " or even if you think she is , Joran selected her because she loooks like Natalee ?????

Joran has maintained a "low profile " whenever he was in Aruba until last months , which is more than 13 months from the incident . How do you decide how early or how late it is for him to start on again ?

Its not as if he went to the Mariott with a blonde the day after he got out of jail not even 6 months after , but a full 13 months later .

Also since we dont know if Joran has shown changes in his behavior and thought process , we dont know if he has learnt or not from the tragedy and I would not judge him on the basis of the fact that he has a blonde grilfriend whom he is hanging out with at the Mariott.

[xxx]

There is a HUGE difference between having sex while a teenager and approaching sex life it was having a drink with someone in a bar, where you don't need to know their name.

I agree, on the whole, Europeans deal much better with sex than our oversexed yet prudish society, they certainly do better with birth control.

But, I don't think that having group sex at 17, hooking up with tourists '20 times' and not knowing the last names of your sex partners who are local, would be considered normal, even in Amsterdam. I know a lot of guys have this attitude when they are teens/twenties, but that doesn't make it something positve, and for someone who was this advanced a player as a high school senior?

Joran van der Sloot is the perfect candidate for a date rapist. Good looking, charming, gets so much free sex that he can't imagine anyone really means 'no' when they say it, also knows that due to his high number of sex partners, chances are nobody would believe he would 'need' to rape anyone....

Again, we only have Joran's view of these other encounters, and his view makes him look pretty bad, I could conjure up a totally different picture on the same facts, a picture of a girl who was too drunk to resist and too scared to put a stop to things with all these guys lounging around in/outside the car and pulling off blankets asking for a 3-way.

[jack]

And speaking of lessons to be learnt , I think the most important lesson would be (presuming Joran's innocence) not to leave a girl (or anybody for that matter) in an intoxicated condition on the street or beach or anywhere other than a home/hotel or in responsible company . Also , to never ever lie about somethng that could get so serious .

I would want to believe that Joran has really learnt this lesson for life .

"Dont hang out with blondes at the Marriott" is not at all a lesson IMO

[jack]

I dont think Joran would need to drug his girls to let them have sex with him .

I am sure the girls he hooks up with find him hot enough .

[xxx]

Okay, you have a point, it has been a long time, but ya know, he can't go somewhere else? I think its creepy, kind of like if Jackie Kennedy moved across from the Dallas book depository.

I don't think Joran has learned fuck all from any of this, except maybe to try and keep his mouth shut until his lawyer arrives, I guess we will have to wait on his book and see if its a thoughtful recollection of what happened, including an acknowledge of his responsibility or a 'poor, poor, pitiful me' that bad Beth Twitty is the cause of all my sorrow type of piece.

I wonder if they have any more statements and where the hell they got the computer logs from, and I am still waiting on anything from MSM on these statements.

I was thinking maybe they were having them translated by proper translators but that could be done in 24 hours, so, the Natalee Holloway story finally may be over, especially in light of recent events...