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[HappyGirl]

This is a post from BlogsFornatalee that I saw just today. A poter there named FRED
died of a heart attack on Monday. He was a very kind and loving person to all.
Dave & Robin knew him and posted this message on the blog.

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forums/index.php?topic=4506.msg142792#msg142792

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Re: In Memory of our beloved BFN Member Fred
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2006, 07:52:36 PM »

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A note for Fred and his family from Dave & Robin:

"Debbie gave us some bad news today. We were so saddened to hear of Fred's passing today. Our thoughts and prayers will be with Helen and her family. We know Fred is in Heaven, but we will miss him here so much. After we found out, Dave and I got down the beautiful book BFN sent to us dedicated to Natalee. We were in tears reading the beautiful poems Fred wrote. I hope Fred and everyone at BFN know how special this book has been to us. If Natalee is no longer with us and is in Heaven, I know of one angel named Fred taking care of her up there. We appreciate everything Fred and everyone at BFN has done to support and encourage us. We will keep Fred alive in our minds and if there is anything we can do for Helen and her family, please let us know.

Love,

Dave and Robin

[HappyGirl]

i meant to say poster..Sorry for the spelling error.

[SETHLEVINETHEJEW]

Almost everyone misspells something. Get it?

[xxx]

The statements are pretty interesting, though I'm not sure they clarify much of anything, other than, it appears by Joran and Deepak's own statements, it could NOT HAVE BEEN NATALEE back at the Holiday Inn on any tape at 3am, since he has himself still on the beach with her....oh yeah, and he has her ASLEEP, he also has Deepak picking him up, apparently we have yet to be treated to the statement where he switches up and has it Satish or the alleged statements where he says he walked home, can't wait for those.

Although it is stating the obvious, these statments were released several days ago, it appears logical to me, that if the statements were FAKE, that Joe Tacopina would have said so, and that Deepak and Satish's lawywers would have likewise said so. Thus, in the absense of any outcry from the suspect's lawyers at their names being tarnsihed by forged statements, I am able to conclude, the statements, signed or not, badly translated or not, are authentic.

The most interesting thing I found was their recollections of talking wtih Paul van der Sloot the night Natalee's family confronted them. The first question Deepak says he asked is something along the lines of 'what did you learn from this?'...Deepak doesn't make mention of Paul questioning the boys on what happened with Natalee, asking them if there was anything he needed to know? Telling them if an accident occured, they should state it now....he seems to gloss over anything and everything related to what happened to Natalee and why a bunch of irate Americans just showed up on his doorstep and go straight into explaining the legal process. This seems weird to me, not how a surprised father would act, more like how someone who knows what happened, or maybe, DOES NOT WANT TO KNOW what happened, so purposely asks no questions..would act.

It is also interesting that Satish's statement for the first time, has Joran saying that he and Natalee went into the water...It seems like an odd detail for Satish to make up, but then again, given they are all complete liars, he just about as easily could have thrown it in to cast suspicion on Joran and away from himself, raising the idea that Natalee drowned while with Joran...

I actually wonder if it isn't possible that the discredited eye witness may have had it right all along...maybe Joran and Natalee did go to the beach and Natalee died there, Joran burried her somewhere around the beach/pond area. But then, where is she? Who moved her? Maybe he did swim out with her body far enough that it was taken out to sea and he just got lucky?

The statements are leading me away from the idea that Deepak and/or Satish actually raped Natalee, it may have been just Joran all along.

Also worth noting that we can now confirm without a doubt that he was seeing a psychiatrist, which, I don't care what anyone says, even in our therapy happy society,a 17 year old boy seeing a psychiatrist is pretty atypical and must have been for some relatively serious issues...Joran says it was for lying/stealing and breaking things I believe...sounds kinda like a problem to me.

[xxx]

I can't figure out why none of the cable shows are doing anything with these statements.

I would have thought they would re-ignite Natalee coverage for at least a week...maybe they are finally 'over' the Natalee case or Joe T's threats to sue them scared them enough that they aren't going to cover the case in any detail or attempt to draw any conclusions from these statements.

Seems a reasonable assumption that these statements were released by the family after the civil case was dismissed, it appears to be a sign that they have given up. But, why not release them all at once and why not give them in an exclusive to a MSM outlet rather than some blogs?

While they don't particularly shed any light on what happened to Natalee they do confirm some things that were previously rumors and give us another batch of strange and inconsistent statements, also, they help determine who of the 3 amigos was the source for certain statements such as the "slave" conversation coming from Joran, not having been substantiated by K2...and Joran having been the prime mover in getting the story straight, not Deepak, as Joran has alleged in his interviews.

It also confirms that Joran, at one time, stated that he left Natalee asleep. Of course we know now that his newest truth is that she was awake and star gazing. LOL.

Also wondering if these are they only statements the family has...they don't have the whole batch of them....so we still get an incomplete picture.

I want to see the statement where he says he walked home and the one where Satish allegedly admits to picking Joran up.

[jack]

The "eye witness" who had a frozen condom kept in Venezuela has pretty much discredited himself and had admitted lying for the reward . Nobody apart from Jossy would like to believe in any part of his story .

Joran was seeking counselling all right , but not "anger therapy" as Beth has been claiming . I thought he was seeing a psychologist , not a psychiatrist ?

The only new thing that I learnt was Joran claiming Natalee giving him a hand job on the beach ,which if true ,unlike he fingering her , shows that the act would have been totally consensual on Natalee's part . Also the condom story is verified to be something that Joran said all along and not something that was made up for the TV appearances .

Deepak/Satish raping Natalee was always difficult to imagine . Satish's statement suggests that Natalee was not all that drunk at all , she was able to stand / walk properly even on the beach .

On one hand you discredit the drowning theory on the basis of the flow pattern of currents in the waters there (and I agree) , however when it comes to the question of Joran disposing of the body at sea , he might just have gotten lucky , right ?

[jack]

While they don't particularly shed any light on what happened to Natalee they do confirm some things that were previously rumors and give us another batch of strange and inconsistent statements, also, they help determine who of the 3 amigos was the source for certain statements such as the "slave" conversation coming from Joran, not having been substantiated by K2...and Joran having been the prime mover in getting the story straight, not Deepak, as Joran has alleged in his interviews.

...............................................

xxx ,
Remember that Satish's statement has him overhearing Natalee talking about their family having slaves working on their plantations in Alabama .

Deepak admits that he came up with the security guard story.

Satish says that Deepak had Charles Croes back up the HI story complete with Natalee falling down , Joran was apparently not involved in this deal .

"It also confirms that Joran, at one time, stated that he left Natalee asleep. Of course we know now that his newest truth is that she was awake and star gazing. LOL."

No , Joran said in his TV interviews that he left Natalee sleepily gazing at the stars .

[jack]

While they don't particularly shed any light on what happened to Natalee they do confirm some things that were previously rumors and give us another batch of strange and inconsistent statements, also, they help determine who of the 3 amigos was the source for certain statements such as the "slave" conversation coming from Joran, not having been substantiated by K2...and Joran having been the prime mover in getting the story straight, not Deepak, as Joran has alleged in his interviews.

...............................................

xxx ,
Remember that Satish's statement has him overhearing Natalee talking about their family having slaves working on their plantations in Alabama .

Deepak admits that he came up with the security guard story.

Satish says that Deepak had Charles Croes back up the HI story complete with Natalee falling down , Joran was apparently not involved in this deal .

"It also confirms that Joran, at one time, stated that he left Natalee asleep. Of course we know now that his newest truth is that she was awake and star gazing. LOL."

No , Joran said in his TV interviews that he left Natalee sleepily gazing at the stars .

[xxx]

I don't see a contradiction, I can't see Natalee, drunk and asleep, being able to swim out far enough to be taken by the current, but a big, strong, not drunk male might be able to swim out far enough, though I think its more likely that she was burried.

We don't know how much "anger" played a part in the counseling, since the reasons came from Joran, who would most likely downplay the seriousness of the issues.

You are trying too hard. Satish says Joran had his arm around her no? So, if she was drunk out of her mind and he was guiding her, she would still be walking, assuming that they went to the beach at all in the first place. You are never going to convince me that Natalee allegedly falling asleep in the car and allegedly on the beach, allegedly falling down and so forth are not indications that she was very, very drunk...and not simply randomly falling asleep a few times during the course of a couple of hours that happen to coincide with her disappearance.

I only thought it interesting that it was Satish saying Joran told him about swimming and was thinking about the potential implications of that.

I think we got confirmation of several things, the slave comment comes from Joran alone, therefore I totally discredit it, it is not something an Alabama native would say, but is something an Aruban would think an Alabaman might say. Hitler reference is stated independently, so I surmise that Natalee very likely did say this...

Joran is the one who appears to be orchestrating things, he's the one feeding K2 information.

It is also confirmed that he did say at one point he left her on the beach ASLEEP, but he has since revised his statement to be more gentlemanly and he left her awake after she refused to leave.

Whatever.

Based on these statements, I lean now more toward K2 being dumb pawns of Joran and possibly not having harmed Natalee at all. Joran is a liar and a manipulator and he knows what happened to Natalee. His father is an enabler who never bothered to ask the first logical question of his son and his son's friends. Very telling.

[xxx]

I don't see a contradiction, I can't see Natalee, drunk and asleep, being able to swim out far enough to be taken by the current, but a big, strong, not drunk male might be able to swim out far enough, though I think its more likely that she was burried.

We don't know how much "anger" played a part in the counseling, since the reasons came from Joran, who would most likely downplay the seriousness of the issues.

You are trying too hard. Satish says Joran had his arm around her no? So, if she was drunk out of her mind and he was guiding her, she would still be walking, assuming that they went to the beach at all in the first place. You are never going to convince me that Natalee allegedly falling asleep in the car and allegedly on the beach, allegedly falling down and so forth are not indications that she was very, very drunk...and not simply randomly falling asleep a few times during the course of a couple of hours that happen to coincide with her disappearance.

I only thought it interesting that it was Satish saying Joran told him about swimming and was thinking about the potential implications of that.

I think we got confirmation of several things, the slave comment comes from Joran alone, therefore I totally discredit it, it is not something an Alabama native would say, but is something an Aruban would think an Alabaman might say. Hitler reference is stated independently, so I surmise that Natalee very likely did say this...

Joran is the one who appears to be orchestrating things, he's the one feeding K2 information.

It is also confirmed that he did say at one point he left her on the beach ASLEEP, but he has since revised his statement to be more gentlemanly and he left her awake after she refused to leave.

Whatever.

Based on these statements, I lean now more toward K2 being dumb pawns of Joran and possibly not having harmed Natalee at all. Joran is a liar and a manipulator and he knows what happened to Natalee. His father is an enabler who never bothered to ask the first logical question of his son and his son's friends. Very telling.

[jack]

You are WRONG about the slave statements coming from Joran alone .

Satish said that he had heard Natalee talking to Joran about slaves in Alabama . What he had not heard was Natalee asking Joran if the K2 were his slaves , something that Joran told them later .

Satish CLEARLY mentions Natalee's condition to be in control .

[jack]

You are WRONG about the slave statements coming from Joran alone .

Satish said that he had heard Natalee talking to Joran about slaves in Alabama . What he had not heard was Natalee asking Joran if the K2 were his slaves , something that Joran told them later .

Satish CLEARLY mentions Natalee's condition to be in control .

Joran said his father always encouraged him to tell the truth

[jack]

Satish said Joran and Natalee left the car and started walking towards the beach HAND in HAND , not that Joran was holding her or anything . And he describes her as walking normally

[xxx]

Hmmm, you are right.

That sort of puts me back on the fence, I don't think Natalee said these things, so that would mean that Satish is still lying. Her family had a plantation with slaves? Unless she was joking, its a ridiculous statement. She doesn't even live on a farm or in a rural area.

Bottom line, none of the boys are believable, we can all pick and choose which parts to believe and which parts to disbelieve, but without any other third party evidence that corroborates or disproves any of their statements, even in terms of what they told other people and when, it's nothing more than an armchair exercise.

This case will never be solved.

[jack]

"I also heard the girl saying that she was from Alabama and that her parents owned a plantation there that had slaves working on the plantation. Joran had told me later that the girl had asked him if we were his slaves. But I had not heard that. "

From Satish's statement

"To your question whether the girl had been drunk and how the girl was walking I can say the following. The girl was at that time well with it and was walking fine too"

[jack]

Natalee could have said those things in jest , like the Hitler comment . Of course we know that she doesnt have a farm and slavery has been abolished long ago . I think its possible that Natalee actually said those things since now Satish seems to confirm it atleast in part .

[jack]

"Bottom line, none of the boys are believable, we can all pick and choose which parts to believe and which parts to disbelieve, but without any other third party evidence that corroborates or disproves any of their statements, even in terms of what they told other people and when, it's nothing more than an armchair exercise."

And I agree with that too.

[xxx]

Any theory on why so far no MSM has picked up on this?

It is really so sad. I can't imagine how her family and friends have dealt with all of this.

And YES, I realize that Beth is not the poster child for 'soccer mom' and that like the good little republican, christian zealot that she probably is, she plays fast and loose with the objective truth and has most likely done significant damage to the chances of her daughter's death every being solved due to her alienating everyone who had any control and, compounding the error by turning to incompetant, other than JQK, people to advise her. Don't you think Mark Furhman would have been on this case in a second if anyone asked him? A lot better than the Terry Schiavo book debacle, did anyone read that?

It does not change the fact that she lost her daughter and will never have closure. Nor does it change the horrible, disgusting, tragic fact that Natalee's friends have been raked over the coals and accused of every manner of crime ALL because, god forbid, in their TV interviews they said Natalee was not overly intoxicated and for that they've been called every name in the book, liars, criminals, murderers, rapists, sluts, tramps, whores, alkies, racists, plotters in a scam...totally absurd. These are kids who lost their friend?? Why did they need to be demonized too, wasn't trashing Beth and Dave enough for the haters?

Sick.

[jack]

Since the family is the one releasing the statements , it seems that its their decision not to start another round of activity with this case on MSM.
After having lost any chance of the civil suit going forward , perhaps the family doesnt feel the need to keep the case hot on MSM . Perhaps the MSM is not interested in the case that much anymore , either . The case and the coverage truly reached the point of stagnation ever since Guido Wever was arrested and released and nothing really happened after that . That could have changed if the civil case would have gone forward whch didnt happen.

Its a really, really tragic situation that no person and no parent should ever have to face. I whole heartedly hope that the truth comes out one day . The answers are in Aruba for sure but I am not so sure about who did it and how .
I find it unlikely for the perp to come forward and fess up as it would have happened long ago if it had to . The only hope is if some evidence could be unearthed in future that could point to someone as being the perp.

It should never ever happen to another family again .

[xxx]

I dunno, low key doesn't fit the family's actions to date, there is either a legal reason they are not given/taken by MSM or the media has finally gotten over the Natalee case and without some kind of really 'new' news they aren't taking the bait anymore. Most of this stuff has been reported already anyway, in varying degrees of accuracy, its only 'news' to those of us that have followed the minuita of the case.

[jack]

I believe that releasing the statements has made it clearer than before that none of the suspects ever admitted to any "sexual assault" and that the reported sexual acts between Joran and Natalee were most likely totally consensual . It also sheds more light on Natalee's state of intoxication .

[xxx]

I wouldn't go that far, I had always believed there were statements that were made that were omitted from the legal proceedings on some type of technicality, e.g. when the American spokesperson commented in Dec? that it was known Joran and Deepak had sex w/Natalee, but it had to be determined if she was in a position to consent. I coudn't imaginge this insider/PR guy would say such a thing if it had never been stated by the 2 guys, his retraction was cleverly worded in that it said there were no 'official' statements which led me to think the boys had made the statements but were suppressed on some legal grounds. However, since I agree it's the family releasing these documents, one would assume they would release those most damaging to the suspects, so that even if unoffcial statements exist that contradict the boys contention that no sex took place, you would expect them to be released.

Beth really hurt herself if this all she was going on to say they
admitted to sexual assault, I posted a couple of days ago what she should have said if this is the sum total of what she based her belief on. Beth may believe that the statements in total, show a girl who is too intoxicated to consent to anything, and that may be the truth, but the statements also contain a reasonable picture of a girl who was really drunk but still was agreeable to what was happening. But, again, you have to read these statements with the understanding that they are going to be self serving to a degree. What really happened, how drunk she was, what she consented to or didn't consent to we can never know for sure. I would also take issue with your buddies at refugee that these statements are negative toward Natalee. Even if EVERYTHING Joran says happened happened just as he says it did, so what? She was on her last night of vacation, she engaged in some heavy petting with a cute guy, I mean yeah? This makes her bad/wild/slutty? Yikes. Good thing I never disappeared on vacation:)

[jack]

I think Steve Cohen is an idiot who was trying to do damage control by making that comment . He was clearly misinformed and tried to show that Aruba is doing something by saying that about the suspects .

Dompig has made it clear that none of the three suspects ever admitted to having intercourse with Natalee. I think its pretty much true that Deepak never admitted to having any kind of sexual contact with Natalee at all .
Vinda de Souza , Beth's former Aruban lawyer also categorically stated that Joran never admitted having intercourse with Natalee.

[jack]

As much as I despise demonizing Natalee's character in any way , I believe that Beth was also responsible to some extent for letting people take the bait , since she chose to potray her daughter as THE perfect young lady who was very bright yet very naive , NEVER drank , never had sex (likey true) and seldom partied and hence any sexual act she reportedly participated in must have been non consenual.

It is absolutely OK for an adult woman on vacation to drink (although perhaps she could have been more responsible about it) , party and hook up with locals on beaches for a one night stand . She doesnt deserve to be hurt in any way or lose her life for it . Beth wouldnt have none of this .
According to her it is kidnap , rape and murder of a naive schoolgirl who was so trusting of those predators .

[jack]

As much as I despise demonizing Natalee's character in any way , I believe that Beth was also responsible to some extent for letting people take the bait , since she chose to potray her daughter as THE perfect young lady who was very bright yet very naive , NEVER drank , never had sex (likey true) and seldom partied and hence any sexual act she reportedly participated in must have been non consenual.

It is absolutely OK for an adult woman on vacation to drink (although perhaps she could have been more responsible about it) , party and hook up with locals on beaches for a one night stand . She doesnt deserve to be hurt in any way or lose her life for it . Beth wouldnt have none of this .
According to her it is kidnap , rape and murder of a naive schoolgirl who was so trusting of those predators .

[jack]

By the way Steve Cohen is far from being an insider as far as ALE or the Aruban Govt is concerned . He was a hired spokesperson for Aruba's tourism and hotel owners association and couldnt have been privy to more information that Beth's Aruban attorneys and the police chief .

[xxx]

I would believe it, too, except for a little voice in the back of my head that tells me it would be possible in Aruba for a really incriminating statement to 'disappear'...after the Boati+my son got carried away and accused an innocent man...fiascos Dompig is simply not credible.

This is another reason why the case wasn't and won't be solved, NO ONE is credible. Pretty much every person involved all the way from the suspects, the police, Mansur, the prosecutor, the defense lawyers and the family have been caught in either straight up lies or massive exaggerations or touting of total heresay half baked information as gospel. I would say the only person who hasn't utterly discredited himself would be Chris Leguez, the guard's lawyers, but he was out of it in the first month.

Geeze, the litany of bizarro antics would reach to the moon, culminating in the rape victim who wasn't a rape victim but she was or maybe the non victim was a different person than the real victim of exactly the same name or she recanted out of fear or she had a tape being coerced to make up the allegation. I mean really? and this is still just hanging out there. Same girl? Different girl? Who has the real statement and which one was the coerced one?

[xxx]

I never thought she 'chose' to portray Natalee that way but that is 100% what she believed, Beth thought Natalee didn't drink, that's why she said Natalee didnt' drink, she didn't know Natalee drank until she found out what went on in Aruba. She wasn't lying, but she was communicating her view of her daughter: christian, non drinker, virgin, responsible.

I would also say that it seems she was right about establishing Natalee's character, since her character has been assassinated for every reason under the sun ranging from wearing a halter top, drinking on vacation, being six months older that Joran and a child predator, being a slut for leaving with the guys in the first place, being a slut for doing a body shot, leaving for a gang bang and all the rest of it. Is it any wonder that a mother would want to counter that kind of sick thinking?

Natalee's friends have universally said she was responsible, universally said it was out of character for her to leave with three guys she just met, universally said she never had any steady boyfriends and said she was often the designated driver.

It seems to me that this is probably true, Natalee was responsible, wasn't a big drinker, though she probably drank in MB on occasion and hadn't had any steady boyfriends.

It is probably the case that for the first time in her life when she was not under her mother's tutelage and she could do what she wanted legally without worrying that she went overboard. That is part of what makes this such a tragedy. I believe this was the first time in Natalee's life that she acted recklessly, got exceedingly drunk, if she drank as much as the haters contend, she wouldn't have been passing out or getting cautioned by her own friends, she was inexperienced in all these areas, she wanted to try new things and take risks, make the most of this 5 day freedom, and maybe even show up at college with a little more experience under her belt.

[jack]

Geeze, the litany of bizarro antics would reach to the moon, culminating in the rape victim who wasn't a rape victim but she was or maybe the non victim was a different person than the real victim of exactly the same name or she recanted out of fear or she had a tape being coerced to make up the allegation. I mean really? and this is still just hanging out there. Same girl? Different girl? Who has the real statement and which one was the coerced one?

Posted by: xxx | Thursday, August 10, 2006 at 02:30 PM

I think the NY Judge's recent dismissal report makes it a bit more clearer

She claims that the Jane Doe who was initially unidentified in the plaintiff's affidavit was later identified as Karen Martina .

She goes on to say that the defendants produced an affidavit from Martina herself (while JQK had an affidavit from Helen Lejuez mentioning Martina's concern about not testifying in Aruba .

Whether Joe Tacopina "coerced" Martina to force her sign an affidavit , I dont know .

Atleast we know that JQK was unable to even talk to the girl in person let alone having her sign an affidavit

[xxx]

Is it just another weird coincidence though that the back of the van conversation has the Kalpoes kind of taunting Joran about "Karen"...

I honestly have no problem believing that date rape victims in Aruba would be treated like trash, that they would not be believed and their reputations would be ruined. I have no problem believing that this girl was raped and recanted because of fear. I also have no problem believing she was offering money by Jossy Mansur to embellish a consensual encounter into a rape. It could go either way. Without any details, again we don't know. Lots of domestic violence victims, child abuse victims and rape victims recant. But in a case like this when it appears people were offered money to say what Jossy wanted, it is certainly possible it was the other way around.

[jack]

"Is it any wonder that a mother would want to counter that kind of sick thinking?"

No it isnt , but it seems to me that the majority of those kind of comments came after Beth started "establishing " Natalee's character so Beth didnt start out doing that to counter such claims .

[jack]

But in a case like this when it appears people were offered money to say what Jossy wanted, it is certainly possible it was the other way around.

Posted by: xxx | Thursday, August 10, 2006 at 03:01 PM

I still wonder why JQK was unable to produce an affidavit from Karen while Joe T could .

[jack]

I still wonder why Beth never chose to meet this girl in person , encouraging her to come forward with her story .

[jack]

I still wonder why Beth never chose to meet this girl in person , encouraging her to come forward with her story .

Forget the "oppressed , terrorized " Aruban rape victims , where are the blonde American girls that Joran supposedly date raped ?

[xxx]

Come on Jack,

That kind of thinking is out there. Wasn't it just last week that Bill O'Reilly called the raped/murdered 18 year old Jennifer Moore a MORON and considered her clothing..halter top/mini skirt to constitute high risk behavior and a contributing factor to her death? How many women have lost their rape cases because they were flirting with the guy earlier in the night? or because they WILLINGLY drank with their attacker? or had their own panties waved in front of them, and heaven help them if they had any kind of sexy saying on them...

The oddest thing is, my gut tells me Beth Twitty would have been right up there with Bill O'Reilly blaming the victims who weren't good girls for their own rape/murder/assault....which is why, instead of focusing on advice about managing risky behavior [she still can't aknowledge that Natalee engaged in any risky behavior] she wants to talk about cell phones and international law.

But this is all beside the point, there are some people that will always blame the woman or girl and always want to tag her behavior as the reason she was harmed.

[jack]

Come on Jack,

That kind of thinking is out there.

I agree xxx , and its very ufortunate .

[xxx]

I agree, I have to confess I was surprised there was no affivavit from JQK from alleged victim(s) filed under seal, I had attributed it to timing, but he would have had time to get it after the fact...so, it tends, if I am being objective, to lend weight to the Joe T. side, that there is more evidence of no rape than of rape. I also agree, you would have thought by now, some girl some where from another country would have come forward with a similar story...

But that brings me back to ALE..and how corrupt are they/were they, for all either of us knows there are or were reports like this that got the round file, or, although Joran may be a predatory player kind of guy who is just in it for the sex, he does still bother about getting consent.

I will say that although I didn't read the statements in the same detail I would have six months, they left me feeling LESS sure of rape/murder/conspiracy than I was before.

They seem to point to K2 being innocent of anything but total stupidity and while I think they point to Joran being a profuse liar, more of his statements had the ring of truth than I would have expected. I am now MORE open to the idea that Natalee might have died accidentally in his presence than I was before.

[xxx]

Hmmm,

The newest batch of statements have caused me to change my mind again. Now that I read Deepak says Joran told him what to say, down to including the 'fingering' aspect of his petting with Natalee, I am forced to conclude this makes NO SENSE. Why would he tell Deepak to mention this to police, when Deepak says, later, in fact he never saw it happen?? Especially if this was a scared boy story, he makes sure his friends also says he witnessed this alleged sexual act?

It really, really, really makes me wonder if this is when 'something bad' happened, when Joran initiated this act, maybe that is when Natalee wanted to stop, and far from getting out of the car, having dry sex and giving him a hand job, that something else happened.

Deepak also confirms that he knows what 'passed out' means and that 'passed out' was a term used by Joran when he called him.

And most disturbing is Deepak admitting he had at one time said Natalee put her hands down HIS pants, then says that was a lie he told just to keep the focus off of Satish. Huh? Why would Natalee putting her hands down his pants keep the focus off of Satish?

Why don't K2 mention going to Joran's house? They say they all did go to the lighthouse, Joran doesn't mention lighthouse, says they went to the beach.

Is it possible that K2 DID drop Joran and Natalee at the beach, Joran did call for a ride but K2 said no, and someone else picked them up and took a now completely unconscious Natalee and Joran back to his house or some other location?

This fits with the timeline, fits with K2 being at home, fits with Joran at the beach and fits with Natalee being somewhere else.

Joran put in all the details about the sex acts he claims she consented to because it was those acts that caused her death in the first place.

[xxx]

Double hmmm,

Paul is googling about the effects of alcohol and drugs on young people on May 30th at 10PM? and googling for lawyers?

Before the family arrived? Before he knew Natalee Holloway even existed.

Joran's brother is up and logged on until a half hour before "Joran" comes home and logs on????????///

LOL

And coincidentally, on May 30th a virus attaches to the computer.

How's about Paul van der Sloot saw or heard something when Joran came in the night Natalee disappeared that was sufficiently disturbing that, even though he let his kid out again the next night to booze and drink, he was concerned enough to be googling all these items.

How's about that we don't know what time Joran got home since his brother could have logged on under his password.

How's about somebody, Deepak, maybe, infected the computer with a virus to cover something? deleted porn files? deleted video of 'sleeping' girls being sexually assaulted.

Nah, it is all just another big, big coincidence.

Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

[jack]

Regarding googling of booze and drug files , they were image files that were googled . We know that Joran had a document named alcohol.doc created on May 16 , 2005 . it seems he was doing a class project on the effects alcohol and/or drugs and was searching for PICS to put up in the project .

Deepak makes it clear that by "passed out" he meant "fell asleep" .

Why would his brother log on under his password ?

Also I presume there are MSN message records indicating Joran messaged Deepak around that time 3:30 ? and I would like to see those .

[jack]

The googling for booze/drugs was presumably done for IMAGE FILES . I think Joran took over the computer after Paul was done with looking at stocks and shares sites and was searching for images for his class project , as he had created a file as early as MAy 16 .

regarding law firms , Paul wouldnt have the need to search for lawyers online , would he ? Perhaps he or Joran were looking for something totally irrelevant .

[jack]

Joran put in all the details about the sex acts he claims she consented to because it was those acts that caused her death in the first place.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 12:49 PM

This makes no sense to me . He would totally avoid mentioning the acts if those led to her death .
By the way I am yet to come across a case of "death by fingering" .

It seems Joran never holds back when it comes to describing his sexual exploits in GRAPHIC detail , be it with Natalee or Karen or somebody else , for whatever reason.

[jack]

And YES , the MSN logon records DO show Joran having exchanged several messages with Deepak between 3:25 - 3:35 am .

THANKS SM !!

Regarding the booze/drugs search , it says a number of IMAGES were stored under a folder named alcohol probably the one that Joran created on MAy 16 for his class project .

[jack]

and xxx ,
the search for alcohol etc was done around 8:30 pm and NOT 10 pm when both Paul and Joran would possibly have been at home together .

[jack]

EVERYTHING in these computer records shows that Joran's activities are consistent with his reported timeline , that he WAS indeed at home before 3:30 am and he DID message Deepak at that time .

[xxx]

This makes no sense to me . He would totally avoid mentioning the acts if those led to her death .
--------------------------------------------------------------------

No, that isn't how the rapist's mind works, this is why pedophiles tell you it was the children that wanted to "experiment" why the rapists almost always describe the sex with the woman jonesing for it, she was unbuckling his pants, etc. etc.

WHY would he tell Deepak to mention the fingering episode? In advance?? Because he is, well, first off, a pathological liar, secondly a piece of shit who appears not to know the last name of any girl he had sex with, and lastly, becuase he is FIXATED on this and in his 'new/new truth' the fairly tale that he has created, this is how it happened, except of course, it probably never happened that way at all.

It is one thing for Joran to be candid about his sex life, its another to tell his buddy to make sure he mentions a specific sex act that the buddy never saw in the fake alibi that he made up because he's scared of getting in trouble.

[jack]

look xxx ,
I think you are reading too much into it , that Joran made it a point of mentioning "fingering" for Deepak to include in his statement .

Going by your line of thought , I would have expected him to instead focus MORE on the "hand job" part which would qualify as a totally consensual and ACTIVE involvement of Natalee in a sexual act with him (look , thats what she did to me , she wanted it , your stereotypical rapists mentality) . But he didnt do that , he mentioned fingering which is something HE did to her and may or may not have been consensual .

[jack]

It is one thing for Joran to be candid about his sex life, its another to tell his buddy to make sure he mentions a specific sex act that the buddy never saw in the fake alibi that he made up because he's scared of getting in trouble.

Posted by: xxx | Friday, August 11, 2006 at 02:53 PM

I think he just wanted to convey that they were making out on the beach (as an answer to the obvious question WHY did your friend take the girl to the beach and WHAT did he tell you he did there ?)
Since Joran saw nothing wrong or incriminating in mentioning the details , he chose to tell that to Deepak .

[xxx]

I suspect, that without his father's influence and 'legal advice' Joran's Plan B story would have been consensual group sex demanded by Natalee and then Natalee having left with a second group of men for more sex, after having offered to sell him drugs and do it on film for a couple of drinks.

He puts in all the wrong details at all the wrong times.

He can't remember these girls last names, and whats up with a 12 year old girlfriend??, can't remember what clothes he was wearing, can't even remember or keep straight how he got home, but he manages to remember where and how many fingers and he decides that Deepak needs to include this in his statement as well.

I suppose it was totally innocent of Deepak to claim that Natalee put her hands down his pants, you know, to keep the heat off Satish??

If you take any single thing out of context you can make a case that it means nothing, this is the bread and butter of defense lawyers, they try to trick the jury into picking apart the puzzle piece by piece instead of linking it together to form the whole picture. Some juries, Robert Blake, Durst, fall for it, tohers, Westerfield, Peterson aren't as stupid as they had hoped.

All of this stuff is neither innocence nor coincidence but something darker.

[jack]

xxx ,
Just like the "fingering" thing bothers you , I am a bit unceasy with the fact that Deepak asked Charles Croes to back up the Holiday Inn drop off story and he makes sure to add the "falling down" part . Apparently he did that without consulting Joran .